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It Doesn't Matter What You Believe

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08:07 / 23.09.05

Quantum - regarding whether it 'works' or not : One of your over-riding beliefs, the foundation on which any system you may or may not adopt must be laid, is thus a profound and fundamental faith in cause and effect. This is True, capital T, since it forms the basis on which you judge the effectiveness of your efforts.

I believe in cause and effect : I just have no idea which is which.

08:46 / 23.09.05

This seems similar to me to my dealings with martial arts (among other things that tend to be "religious issues")- everyone has their own system and they are all the greatest on earth. You can choose one style or many, or make up your own patchwork wankomancy-do.

So are you therefore claiming that there is no tangible difference between a tried and tested martial arts style that's been passed down over centuries, and a fabricated martial arts style that someone has just invented off the top of their head - having never trained before and having never been in a fight?

11:44 / 23.09.05

So are you therefore claiming that there is no tangible difference between a tried and tested martial arts style that's been passed down over centuries, and a fabricated martial arts style that someone has just invented off the top of their head - having never trained before and having never been in a fight?

No, of course im not saying that. But everything has to be judged on its own merits. For example, tae-kwan-do is a "tried and tested" martial art, and yet it's widely recognized as worse than cold shit on a paper plate. It has no efficacy as a fighting art. It's a physical exercise (like Billy Blank's Tae Bo or even general "karate") masquerading as a fighting art. Silat practitioners and street fighters and western boxers know a whole hell of alot more about fighting than someone who doesn't rely on it to survive or make a living. However all styles are going to benefit (or be impressive to) someone who has zero experience.

Now if someone was fighting (in any style, or no style at all) and discovered some fundamental truth, and started working with that, they would most likely become more effective. Likewise, if someone jumped into the magic(k)al arena and got their feet wet with sigils, or voudoun, or chaos, they would get some experience under their belt. They might possibly discover some fundamental truth and start working with that. And they would likely become more effective.

What i think im saying is, it doesn't matter what style or belief you pick, because they all have some effectiveness, however slight (see angel cards) and ultimately you will be discarding it for something more personal that you have found to be more effective. So pick something that appeals to you or inspires you.

11:57 / 23.09.05

I just realized I made that sound easy - discovering some fundamental truth. That wasn't my intention. It is all very difficult and time consuming and frustrating. But it can be done. I mean after all someone had to think up all the styles and beliefs in the first place and be good enough with them to convince other people to do the same thing.

A favorite story of mine from one of my martial arts teachers is about dogma and concerns this subject...
A tai chi master is demonstrating a long form tai chi set to his students. they are watching intently and learning. This master has a bit of arthritis in his hands and holds them a particular way because of this. His students see his hands and copy it. then when they are teaching this form to their own students they pass along the hand gesture and say it was the way they were taught w/o considering why. Without thinking about what we're doing and evaluating why we are doing it and wondering if there isnt a better way, we run the risk of falling into dogmatic thinking.

That guy knew what he was talking about.

13:30 / 23.09.05

Similarly the story of the monkey corporation- some monkeys in a cage with stepladder, at the top of the ladder is some fruit. When a monkey tries to get the fruit, all the monkeys get hosed down by the Psychologists. Pretty quickly, if a monkey tries to go for the fruit the others pull it down off the ladder.

The psychologists introduce fresh monkeys, who quickly learn not to try for the fruit (EEKK! OOK! 'fuck, won't do that again, I expect there's a good reason') and learn the same behaviour, pulling other monkeys down ('There's a good reason! I just don't know what it is! EEKK!').

The evil Psychologists throw away the hose, and gradually replace the entire population of the cage. No monkey goes for the fruit, no monkey knows why, they just EEKK! if one tries. Some say this is the way most corporations are run.

One of your over-riding beliefs, the foundation on which any system you may or may not adopt must be laid, is thus a profound and fundamental faith in cause and effect. This is True, capital T, since it forms the basis on which you judge the effectiveness of your efforts. Money Shot

Let's talk meta-beliefs (or second order beliefs) like causation and induction. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, because it has in the past. I believe the future will resemble the past because... well, I just do. There's no rational justification for induction, it's an article of faith. Ditto causation (I assume that's why you've capitalised truth there). These beliefs-about-beliefs are what we use to judge first order beliefs (the sun will rise).
What criteria do I use to judge these second-order beliefs? Practicality, pragmatism. I believe in Causation because it's useful, it helps me live effectively.
What criteria do we use to judge these top-level yardsticks like the Law of Pragmatism? Well, intuition, faith, whatever- it's what feels right. It's obvious to us.

My faith is in Pragmatism, which supports my belief in causation (which is tenuous to be frank, I don't hold it that dear- it's a psychological habit humans have, not Truth). I also have faith in reason, intuition and veridical experience. But not Truth, I don't believe in objective truth, just useful approaches the wild and wacky world of sensory experience.

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