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[sub]URBAN Densification: Orlando, FL

 
 
AP
16:06 / 15.09.05
(taken from a thread started in the Creation section)


anyone interested in urban planning/architecture/city design/suburbia/urbanism or anything else related...

I am interested in articulating the problems of Orlando as a city (and subsequently articulating the "multivalent" issues present in many other cities that follow the post-industrial sprawl archetype that Orlando so wonderfully epitomizes).

This can be done in a variety of media, whether urban masterplan, social critique (writing etc) or anything else you can think of.

...
(AP)
The notion is to create a sort of manifesto on what ails this situation and what could possibly fix it. Also, by making it specific to a place (Orlando) I hope to make it actually useful/use-able.

There is an off-shoot of the University of Florida School of Architecture called Citi-Lab Orlando that has begun (I think) to engage in this discussion.

...
(from grant)
Hmm. Well, it seems like there's been plenty of articulation of the problems of sprawl already. Car culture + air conditioning + lack of public transit/urban center value + valorization of the single family home + profit-driven overdevelopment = subdivision hell.

Orlando really is like the ideal test case for this kind of thing -- it's like ur-sprawl. But I think that was part of the inspiration behind Celebration, right? A small town built to order, from Main Street outward?
I've visited there, and it's creepy as hell, but I do think that as as an alternative to sprawl, it works.

(BTW, if you're thinking more along the lines of an analytical/critical document, it might get more mileage in the Switchboard or Head Shop. It really depends on what you want your end-product to be, though.)

So, uh, what do you want as an end-product? A document stating, "WE BELIEVE..." with lists of solutions?

...
(AP)
grant,

New Urbanism gave us Celebration. They have framed the problems in such a way that their proposed way of solving becomes accepted/embraced.

I agree, it's creepy. However, I'm not sure it is in any way a cure or even a treatment. It's a disguised sprawl all of its own.

Maybe my use of the word Manifesto was mis-leading. I just want to focus in on defining the specifics of the issues that you mentioned (and others) as they pertain to Orlando. Perhaps this can be done similarly to the Charter for New Urbanism, but surely that is a greater undertaking than what I am suggesting. Also, my education is in architecture, not urban planning etc, so some guidance in this realm is desired...

It is the duty of architecture to serve the people, as it were. At the moment, New Urbanism has communicated to politicians etc and has therefore exercised a certain degree of power in shaping new development. They have put themselves in the position to 'serve the people.'

Wouldn't it be great if other positions on the subject - that is to say, other ways of solving the problems that ail the contemporary US city - could exercise equal influence?
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:04 / 15.09.05
great thread, and something I've been thinking about long and hard since the events in Fallujah, Asian Tsunami, New Orleans, etc...

I'm in Vancouver, which decided not to build a highway through itself back in the 60s-70s when it was all the rage in North America, which makes it unusual. There's a huge amount of gridlock on the surface streets as a result, instead of on a highway.

The urban problem, as Grant mentions, in my world, is predominantly vehicular. Too many cars, too much exhaust, too much travel, too much blood. Get rid of streets, plant gardens. There's a need for food sources from within the city, instead of the incessant demand for it to be shipped in from everywhere else.

here's a step in the right direction: the vertical farm project

I think our priorities should be set out, to move in a direction to remove the sources of the pervasive toxins in our urban environment, and create something more sustainable.

as of this year, sometime, more of us live in cities that not. the rural minority can't continue to feed the urban majority and depend on fossil fuels to provide the energy for transportation (and other aspects of agriculture).

as for sprawl, I get to watch the suburb of North Vancouver climb up the side of the mountain. it's rather ridiculous.

ta
tenix
 
 
AP
19:59 / 15.09.05
thanks for your response. Vancouver is beautiful; you're fortunate to live there. From what I witnessed though, Vancouver has a density that approaches sustainable, and Stanley Park is an excellent lung for the city, both ecologically and socially. Sorry to hear that sprawl is taking its toll on your city too...

The things I enjoyed most about my visit to Vancouver were the walk-ability of the waterfront[s] (for the most part), the public space, Stanley Park, decent public transit and the existence of veritable neighborhoods that were distinguishable within the greater mass of the city.

Orlando is missing all of these things.
 
 
AP
20:03 / 15.09.05
there are neighborhoods, but they get lost within the flat, low-density suburban-ness of Orlando. A few become distinguishable, but they are the exception (Winter Park, Thornton Park...) and they are typically higher-rent areas.

...so the thread is titled [sub]URBAN Densification...because that describes what may be a solution... to create a walkable areas, to promote density and therefore walking/biking/green space/open public space etc...
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
19:18 / 16.09.05
hey AP,

Vancouver's alright, but it's still a big place that expanded after Expo in 1986 - I think the population of the greater metropolitain area doubled - and the infrastructure's still catching up (except the postal service here is exceptionally punctual).

not to mention that most of the pollution gets blown up valley for other cities to deal with.

at any rate, WRT Orlando (which I passed through to the Mouse Mecca, too quickly to remember much) - are you looking for a means to revivify suburban sprawl?

In Ottawa, decades ago, the downtown was abandoned by the gentry/affluent/wealthy for recently constructed suburbs. Since then, they have moved back to the downtown core, revivifying/gentrifying it, and chasing the people who had made it their homes, and had built up the neighbourhood to other parts of the city.

There was also a green belt, a halo of green space surrounding the city proper. Its intention was to restrict sprawl, forcing the city to grow up instead of out.

didn't work though. Communities developed on the other side of the green belt, where the land is cheaper, and commute to the city. The land, which was under the jurisdiction of the federal government, has since been slowly sold off to developers.

It's quite a challenge AP. What is your ultimate hope for this thread? Do you need to network with like-minded folk? Do you want to create a document to submit to the city? developers?

Our cities really need saving, as New Orleans has made obvious to many who hadn't considered it previously.

How would public/community gardens work in Orlando? Is the climate/soil any good for that sort of thing? Some cities have adopted "no spray" policies, to keep pesticides & herbicides off of public green spaces.

developing new areas for mixed residential/commercial zoning to allow for denser living with less travel required. Each community should have enough jobs for the people who live there (as opposed to moving between bedroom community and city core).

I've noticed a trend also, in the development of commercial parks (sprawls of warehouses, glass towers and parking lots) outside the city core. I don't think this solves the problem, but it's an interesting evolution of it. The business core is moving to the suburbs.

Is Orlando's suburbs besiedged by box stores?

is the idea of walking to one's destination as laughable as it would be in, say, LA?

curiouser and curiouser
ta
tenix
 
 
AP
15:16 / 22.09.05
In reply to your comments:

the downtown is already being addressed, but with the type of gentrifying architecture (high-rise luxury condos etc) that you mentioned (in regards to Ottowa). This area is walkable already, although it could have better park'green'open public space...



Orlando is uber-sprawl. the downtown area isn't a center by any means. Smaller neighborhoods exist, some with a center of the own, most without.

Would I like to network with like-minded folk? Absolutely.
Do I want to create a document to submit to the city? developers? That would be great, but here I am only suggesting the very beginnings of such an undertaking.

How would public/community gardens work in Orlando? Is the climate/soil any good for that sort of thing? The weather in sub-tropical Florida is great for being outside most of the year, although some summer months are pretty damn hot, and most wouldn't trade their AC for a nice shadey tree...

"developing new areas for mixed residential/commercial zoning to allow for denser living with less travel required. Each community should have enough jobs for the people who live there (as opposed to moving between bedroom community and city core)."

that's what I'm thinking. Specifically in the Winter Park area, which I have become familiar with, this strategy seems appropriate. There are already aspects of it, but large scale retail development may overtake other parts, detracting from the existing pedestrian scale and adding to vehicular dependency. Mixed use, dense development, even if it meant commuting to work (but not to the store or restaurant), would be a huge help. Community could be stimulated this way...

In Orlando, the business core doesn't really exist. It's everywhere, from Disney in the south up the "I-4 Technology corridor" into the Northern Orlando suburbs. The University of Central Florida area, 20-30 minutes w/o traffic to the east of downtown, also has a fair share of business. The sprawl is here, it is the condition to respond to. It's too late to reverse it, so the inevitable must be embraced and dealt with accordingly.

Also, the big box issue is typical here. Actually, the scale is even larger than usual. Entire mega-strip malls, harboring as many as 20 veritable big box stores (from Target to Best Buy to Jo-Ann Fabrics to YOU NAME IT), along with neverending parking lots and what seems like hundreds of filler stores exist in at least a few locations. It's disgusting. The parking lots have their very own traffic jams and intersections to be avoided at all costs.

General walk-ability is a joke. I've never been to LA, so I can't compare from experience, but without public transit (besides a less than desirable bus system), walking isn't an option unless you live and work either downtown, which isn't very commmon.

So, plenty to deal with...thanks for your continued interest in our plight.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
15:59 / 22.09.05
AP,

Happy Equinox and International Car-Free Day.

You may want to check out "the death and life of great american cities" by Jane Jacobs. It's dated but still very relevant.

Also "Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities, and Software" by Steven Johnson. He's big on computer networks, however, his observations of emergent behaviour may help to give you an idea of how best to look at the city as a discrete entity.

I have a notion for a website, which I haven't put any work into (other than buying a domain), but lots of thought. See if you think this might be a valuable approach to networking.

I hope to put together a database for municipal citizens (as opposed to their political representatives). I'm hoping that it will be a resource for urban living, with a focus on food (gardening, public space, trucking, distribution, processing organic waste, composting, etc), development (zoning, and who to talk to about what), and existing organizations and programs.

for example, there's already BEST here (Better Environmentally Sound Transportation) and SPEC (Society Promoting Environmental Conservation) and the City itself.

I envision each city having its own website, each well-interlinked as appropriate.

I foresee a shift of power from the national to the municipal, as necessary for survival (particularly since more of us live in cities than outside of them, as of 2005 sometime). I think that encouraging people living in the city to help to develop it is a step in the right direction.

so, what do you think?

ta
tenix
 
 
grant
16:40 / 22.09.05
I've been to Orlando and I've been to LA, and I think the sprawl is worse in Orlando. LA -- most of the parts I've been to -- is more walkable. Just barely.

I think what you're pointing out about pre-existing neighborhoods is probably a good starting point for something. So maybe one point would be: Find potential centers.

Oh, and another footnotey thing: most of the tourist attractions in Central Florida pre-Disney were public gardens. Cypress Gardens, Bok Tower Gardens, etc.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
13:29 / 24.09.05
AP,

wrt Ottawa, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

It's a white-collar bastion. Small city (about 130 000, the region is about 1 million) with a centralised downtown core (offices offices and uhm, offices), a surrounding greenbelt, and then the sprawl of bedroom communities all around.

it's a middle class, white collar wonderland. And very bland and uptight, as the general mood of the place.

grant's suggestion is a good starting point. Find the centres. There's another book about car free cities (can't recall which) that describes those centres around which communities thrive. they described them as gathering places - general stores with plenty of seating outside, proximate to green space, residences and other businesses.

I found this site though, which may be useful: http://www.carfreecity.us/

gl. sounds like you've got quite the project ahead of you.

ta
tenix
 
 
grant
15:29 / 28.09.05
It struck me this morning that as well as centers, it's really nice to have connections -- it seems like you'd want to have boulevards that connect public greenspaces (like you see in Savannah... makes walking in the city a real pleasure) as well as infrastructure routes that are parallel to the boulevards to carry goods (supply trucks for the storefronts) and utilities (garbage trucks, power poles, telephone cables). So maybe finding ways to network the centers would be important.


This is something that European cities seem to do well, possibly because stores & parks have sprung up along pre-existing pedestrian routes -- Europe has had time to develop/cultivate city life along "lines of desire." I'm not sure how I'd network Eula Lake with that club zone around Church Street or the Little Vietnam area out on Colonial/50, but I'm sure it's possible.

I'm also interested in the class structure of suburban sprawl, in that it seems to be overwhelmingly upwardly mobile (or pretending to be) middle to upper-middle class. Where is Orlando's poverty? I'd guess somewhere in dense neighborhoods near the Church Street entertainment district and out in rural places around Kissimmee. Where are the rich? Probably in another downtown population center in high rise condos and outside the city proper in some other town, like Winter Haven or Deltona or somewhere(I honestly don't know -- I've only visited Orlando, never lived there.) I'm not sure how to articulate this as a guideline except maybe accomodate different income levels or similar.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
16:10 / 28.09.05
good ideas, Grant

Vancouver has a well-developed alley system, which run parallel to the main roads, providing access for utility works (garbage pickup, mostly) - but it also provides an interesting medium for bin-divers to collect discarded objects, food & deposit bottles in shopping carts.

they have the lowest ecological footprint in the city, I think.

mind you, Vancouver's a newer city, and urban planning didn't take root here until it had already had time to develop in Europe and Eastern North America. As such, the alleys are well laid out and extensive.

and if you're ever looking for a place to conduct illicit business...

ta
tenix
 
 
AP
19:19 / 29.09.05
This accomodation of lower income levels is one of the pitfalls of the NewUrbanist method, which caters more to the middle-uppermiddle classes...

As far as connecting the nodes:

In the case of Orlando, actual infrastructure is in place, but the proper articulation of it is needed.

For example, on the smaller scale of Winter Park (a 'burb within the mega-burb of Orlando, and one that I seem to return to in this conversation) there are a 2 primary areas worthy of the term "center" or perhaps "node of relative primacy." These would be the Park Avenue area (yes, it's linear, but acts as a combination of a node and a heavily charged edge or path) and the Winter Park Village shopping center.

The first, Park Ave, has some well articulated connectivity with the surrounding area, including the Rollins College campus. The connection between it (Park Ave) and the WP Village is relatively weak. The small scale neighborhood grid continues to the WP Village, but no real pedestrian activity is encouraged. Once you're at the Village, the scale is primarily dictated by the car, not the pedestrian. Come to think of it, there is a gradient from Park Ave to the WP Village, from small and ped-friendly to big and vehicle dominated.

IN this specific case, as soon as you continue past the WP Village and across the major thoroughfare (Orlando Avenue) you are "across the tracks," as it were...

So, in the spirit of Kevin Lynch, the WP resident is turned away from that which occurs across Orlando Ave, in one respect creating a containing border, but also a mental divide (rich/poor).

???

(end tangent)
 
 
AP
17:54 / 05.10.05
What's wrong with suburbia?

"Because all the functions of life—homes, stores, entertainment, and work-places—are rigidly separated and spread out, everyone needs a car to get around. That means long commutes, traffic jams, and less quality time with family. Local governments are going broke trying to extend water and sewer lines and other infrastructure to outlying areas, even if it's dense once you get there. Sprawl eats up farmland and open space, and investment in sprawling areas has tended to be at the expense of inner cities, worsening social and economic fragmentation."
 
 
AP
19:31 / 05.10.05
what Wendell Cox has to say:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_00014.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/cox200509270811.asp
 
 
AP
19:35 / 05.10.05
sorry...

Wendell Cox on Light Rail
and
In Houston
 
 
AP
20:07 / 05.10.05
the above links came from a conversation thread on archinect.com, posted by Steven Ward.
 
  
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