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Kaiser Chiefs

  
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
13:33 / 12.09.05
It doesn't seem like Kaiser Chiefs either want to demonstrate ambivalence or would have the skill to do it. Which is another thing about Pulp - the musical arrangement of the Kaiser Chiefs is straight-down-the-line slowed-down punk rock, basically - their closest musical relative is probably Shed Seven. I'm not saying Pulp are theh Engima variations, but some of the references in their music - like the triumphalist, Wurlitzerish middle-eight in "Mis-Shapes" as the geeks unite and march on the townies - undercut and disrupt the message.

So, I'd probably summarise as:

1) Mis-Shapes is in part made more complex because it doesn't have the same sort of distance as "I Predict a Riot", but also because it doesn't actually seek to present a reality. The geeky kids rising up - taking the comforting thoughts of intellectual superiority that all geeks have and turning them into what is obviously a fantasy of revenge and supremacy (see, again, the video). "I Predict a Riot", on the other hand is documentary - this is what I see, this is how it is interpreted. There's no distance between the action and the narrator. I think, on reflection, that's quite a big thing. "Mis-Shapes" goes from a quiet statement of entitlement ("But we live round here too" - we are in the same boat, and it's slef-defeating for us to fight) to an utterly empty rallying-cry where the oppressed become the oppressors. It's the sound of the kid who has run all the way home telling himself that it's a good thing none of those townies were stupid enough to mess with him. "I Predict a Riot" purports simply to describe a situation in documentary terms - the town centre is full of slappers and drunks, and it's all going to end in tears.

I confess thhat I do quite like:

Would never have happened to Smeaton,
An old Leodiensian

As a lyric, but there's where it gets a bit interesting. On one level that's a complaint about the way the police give the posh kids an easy ride, but it's also, and I think primarily, saying that things just ain't what they used to be. Since I'm pretty sure that there were no Policeman to look at fuunny in Leeds in the early 18th century, he's probably right.

On the other hand:

I can't believe once you and me did sex

They're Lee and Herring, aren't they?
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
13:51 / 12.09.05
They're Herring.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:08 / 12.09.05
Point.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
14:17 / 12.09.05
it doesn't have the same sort of distance as "I Predict a Riot"

I think the lack of this kind of distance is one of the things that does make the difference in Pulp's lyrics -so much of them are basically statements of complicity, it undermines any kind of smugness that could be derived from identifying with the lyrics. I'm thinking particularly of Pencil Skirt here; after railling against a miserable engagement for the better part of three minutes, we're told 'I only come here, 'cause I know it makes you sad / I only do it, 'cause I know you know it's bad / Don't you know, that it's ugly, and it shouldn't be like that / But it's turning me on'. Which is, I think, at least as nasty as (if far more lucid than) anthing in Every Day I Love You Less And Less -but there's an admission of being part of the problem, and a basic ambivalence that makes identifying with any of the possible positions in the song uncomfortable. Whereas in the case of the Kaisers it seems to be taken as read that the listener can identify with 'urgh, drunk people' or 'urgh, minger.'
 
 
illmatic
14:39 / 12.09.05
Actually, it's more "urgh, working class drunk people" and "urrgh, she's not dressed like a student, she must be a slag".
 
 
illmatic
14:40 / 12.09.05
I know you don't need me to tell you that but I just wanted to voice my loathing a bit more.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:14 / 12.09.05
Thanks Haus and Vincennes, for capturing neatly what I was waffling about.

Pulp do express nastiness, but they never do it comfortably and always either draw attention to their own culpability or take the nastiness into fantasy territory. Or both.

KCs 'report' life 'as it is'.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:21 / 12.09.05
I'd just like to clarify, though, that I have nothing against students, and hate Viz.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:39 / 12.09.05
(o-t)D'you know, I've never heard Kaiser Chiefs. I'm not sure I want to now.(/o-t)
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:55 / 12.09.05
Can someone larf at my Coldpay link, pleeze.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:58 / 12.09.05
Arf!
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
22:38 / 12.09.05
Now come on guys, they're not that bad are they? I mean they make pretty good punky pop tunes that are pretty catchy. Seem like a cool bunch of guys to boot and blah blah blah blah blah bblllaaah WHAT SHIT ARE YOU TALKING HARRISON.

THEY ARE SHIT I SAY SSHHHIIIT. I PREDICT A RIOT, DO I? DO I FUCK, I PREDICT MY FOOT RIGHT UP YOUR FUCKIN' FLOPPY BASIN YOU SHMINDEY TWATS. FUCK OFF BACK TO HOLLYOAKS BEFORE I GO ALL CHUCK NORRIS ON YOUR ARSE.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
11:53 / 13.09.05
Y'know, I don't think you can get any more working class than Viz.

Hater.
 
 
haus of fraser
13:35 / 13.09.05
I think hitting on the lyric misogyny front is kind of lazy and a knee jerk reaction typical of certain thinkers on Barbelith- in all honesty does all the music you listen to have a lyrical content you agree with? Lets expect the worst of people we don't think we like. Rather than simply shout %racsist, sexsist% etc and hope the dirt sticks surely its easier to say they're a bunch of punchable twats with badly written lyrics.

As the Pulp Mis-shapes arguement proves (no matter how much you try to justify)- its harder to hate pulp when they have similar dodgy lyrics cos ya know its Jarvis...

Its much easier to hate the Kaiser Chiefs for the old fashioned reason of being a bit shit, and getting sour grapes over the Mercury Prize than picking through and analyzing crappy lyrics surely.

Twats definitely.... Screwdriver not really....
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:48 / 13.09.05
I don't understand: how can writing critically at length about the content of the lyrics simultaneously be "lazy" and "knee jerk", and yet at the same less "easy" than just saying " a bit shit"? Surely the lazy thing would simply be to say "they're shit" and never explain why? Personally I like it when the Music forum on Barbelith features people explaining in detail why they like or dislike something, as I've tried to do here and as I think other people have done here.

Most if not indeed all of your post has already been responded to in this thread, Copey. "does all the music you listen to have a lyrical content you agree with?" No. Do people apply a different standard to Pulp just "cos ya know its Jarvis"? Well, people have at least tried to explain what they feel the differences are. If you're not convinced by their arguments, perhaps you could try engaging with them.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
14:47 / 13.09.05
So none of the Kaiser Cheifs are working class, then?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
14:53 / 13.09.05
Apparently not!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:01 / 13.09.05
Knee jerks are actually quite demanding, Copey, and lazy people should not essay them without a strenuous warm-up. Lazy people should also not bother to read threads or think about them before sharing their thoughts, which are after all the important bit.

Ricky J - the Kaiser Chiefs are alumni of Leeds Grammar School, an independent, fee-paying school namechecked in "I Predict a Riot" - they are themselves Old Leodiensians, as far as I know to a man. Therefore, if they are working class they are working class in a very specific way. However, that may not be quite the point at issue: whether or not Pulp, say, were a "working-class" band is not quite the issue, although they were certainly poor for quite some time, with the lifestyle choices that often necessitates. However, were Jarvis Cocker to have been born Lord of Frodsham, it would not change the comparative levels of empathy and engagement in Pulp's work and that of the Kaiser Chiefs.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
15:20 / 13.09.05
Did you read that link? It's a Royal fucking Knockout. One of them is nicknamed the fucking "Dux".

Bag of septic cunts, the lot of em.
 
 
haus of fraser
16:32 / 13.09.05
Ok so i used the word lazy and I apologise- dug my own grave a bit but hey its only Barbelith.- especially as i had work to do and couldn't get on with the post that i wanted to do- so sorry if it came across that i wasn't engaging

If were going to say Kaiser Chiefs are bad because they are haters with bad lyrics then Pulp are guilty of the same level of superiority.

But its not the lyrics on their own that makes them punchable- but their music and public persona. I guess the principle difference between Jarvis singing these lines and Ricky is down to Pulps music being a little more inventive and left field- as pointed out by haus.

Jarvis is genuinely a bit of an eccentric with the gift of the gab- we can forgive him more easily where as Kaiser Chiefs look like typical student britpop wannabes- the biggest crime I see with 'I predict a riot' is its attempt to rip off one of pulps poorer lyrical moments.

If however the crime is just lyrics - as this is what you singled them out for then IMHO Pulp's 'Mis-shapes' is just as guilty of shit ones as 'I predict a riot'. I agree with haus on many of his points- although using the video to defend bad lyrics is dubious- the video comes after the song is written/ recorded and i'm sure that at recording stage no plan was made for the video.

I don't like the 'girls wonder round with no clothes on' line either although I find it more badly written than misogynistic- an attempt at ripping off the Jarvis/ Parklife social comentary but- missing the point and end up sounding like Grandad worried about his little un. With this statement he undoes the counter culture ideal that he's supposed to be singing about cos he comes across as quite conservative rather than leader of the wayward yoofs.

I don't like defending it cos its drivel. Its more I think they're problem is they are not that inventive and a bit narrow minded rather than actual real women haters.

The Line 'i can't believe that you and me did sex' (a REALLY bad line) its more similar to twelve year olds trying a bit too hard to be cute, than jarvis. I agree with almost all the arguements put forward as to why they are aweful- i'm just not convinced they are actually Misogynists- any more than any other pop stars are anyway.

Punchable twats- yes, misinformed- yes, crap music- double yes, bad lyrics- yep. women haters- I'm not so sure?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
21:13 / 13.09.05
It's possibly worth noting here that Mis-Shapes didn't go on Pulp's Greatest Hits because the band hate it, though I'm not sure why.

I guess the principle difference between Jarvis singing these lines and Ricky is down to Pulps music being a little more inventive and left field- as pointed out by haus.

I don't think it is. The main differences to me would seem twofold.

Firstly, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the respective band's entire body of work. And the class system, and the contradictions in it, are a standard theme in Pulp's lyrics. Whereas, with the Kaiser Chiefs, I Predict a Riot is pretty much all there is to go on. So, whereas Pulp's observations of class are varied, the Kaiser Chiefs have only attacked the working class Leeds 'townies'. I accept it's early days, and the Kaiser Chiefs could go on to make their 'Common People'. But I'll freely admit to being doubtful.

The second point I think is even more important. As has been mentioned by other people on the thread, in their lyrics Jarvis generally takes a participatory role. This places quite a different context on it for me. It's about someone feeling like an outsider within a group they belong to. Whereas I Predict a Riot is all about standing on the sidelines sneering.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:41 / 13.09.05
That's not strictly true - the narrator of 'IPAR'/Ricky Wilson claims to have been attacked by the "man in a tracksuit"... I don't doubt that the song is intended to appear to be from the point of someone who is in the thick of it, scared to walk through town, etc...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:12 / 14.09.05
I'd say that the level of physical involvement is a red herring - it's more about intersubjectivity. Then again, I am very tired.

I'd disagree with Copey's bottle that Kaiser Chiefs are ripping off a Pulp lyric, and I don't think such a thing has been proposed in this thread. If anything, "I Predict a Riot" is closer both musically and in subject matter to late-70s/early-80s songs like "Babylon's Burning", but slower and feyer.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:02 / 14.09.05
I think what's missing from '...Riot' is any sense of complicity or, as has been said above, ambiguity - which are usually features of the Cocker narrator. In 'Common People' the protagonist goes along with the posh girl's slumming and does what she wants, even as he rebukes her, just so he can get sex; equally the righteous avenging-class-inequality-through-sex warrior of 'I Spy' is also meant to be more than a little creepy, obsessive and nasty.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:55 / 14.09.05
All of this is very well, but I think a lot of what "elevates" these people in mind from just another shit indie band that I would otherwise ignore, to people I'm actively considering burning black candles on the photos of, really is down to the rhyming of "leery" with "I tell thee". There is no excuse. Why not just sing: "I have leperous excrement in place of my soul". That is all.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
11:31 / 14.09.05
I think that if this is a question of location, it's the location of the listener rather than the singer. In (I think) the majority of Pulp songs on His 'n' Hers and Different Class, the lyrics are written as a form of address to someone, and I think that changes the way the lyrics might be listened to; as well as there being ambiguity in the stance of the singer, it's present for the listener as well. In something like Pink Glove, the message doesn't seem to be 'I saw a girl and she was dressed in tiny clothes! Awful!' because it's asking the girl herself (and by extension, whoever's listening) why she feels compelled to dress a certain way for her partner. I guess that presupposes that no-one could ever really want to dress like that, but in terms of the narrative of the song at least it doesn't seem snide and is really more of a direct challenge than 'girls run around with no clothes on'.

Not sure how much sense that makes, in a bit of a hurry...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:50 / 14.09.05
But also, the singer of "Pink Glove" is intimately involved in the scene. He isn't just disapproving of the boyfriend and his insistence on making her wear fetishistic outfits because it's disrespectful in an abstract sense - his description of events is tied in to his own frustrated desire. He doesn't let himself or the listener off the hook.
 
 
haus of fraser
13:59 / 14.09.05
although in Mis-shapes Jarvis does take the superior ground- boasting about his and his fellow 'Mis-Shapes' intellect over the 'very thick'...

I understand that its more forgivable for Jarvis to sound smug 'in context' although as a lone song Mis-shapes surely lacks the ambiguity of other pulp lyrics- its more a straight forward us and them- with Jarvis leading the bullied but bright indie kids to an indie kid utopia- all fairley daft and unnecessary really- just like I predict a riot.

I guess what i was saying was the lyrics aren't just what make the Kaiser Chiefs awful- and a bad lyricist doesn't always make a misogynist- but it's easier to make those assumptions when the band are shit.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:02 / 14.09.05
The absurdity of the indie-kid utopia might be a hint as to how useful the attitude being advanced in "Mis-Shapes" is, Copey's H2.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
14:55 / 14.09.05
When I talked before about Pulp being participatory in comparison to the Kaiser Chiefs, I was talking more about the feeling that Pulp are actually singing about people they know as opposed to singing about scary looking people in Leeds town centre. I think Mile End is quite a good example of this.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
15:59 / 14.09.05
When I was a bairn, I always thought "Mishapes" had a bit of a class struggle edge to it. The have-nots vs the haves, with Jarvis on the side of the have-nots.

We want your homes, we want your lives,
we want the things you won't allow us.
We won't use guns, we won't use bombs
We'll use the one thing we've got more of - that's our minds.
Check your lucky numbers, that much money could drag you under, oh.
What's the point of being rich if you can't think what to do with it?
'Cause you're so very thick.

So Jarvis is postioning himself with the working class, which isn't exactly some homogenous collection of plebs with the same attitudes, dress sense or taste. Suprisingly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I grew up in the North East (a festeringly imporverished shitehole) and I never thought of Jarvis as being middle class or anything. The bits about lucky numbers and school are a bit more iffy, but it could be seen as more of an attack on the hidden curriclum keeping working class kids from learning and improving and the hidden use of gambling as a "tax on the poor".

Maybe everyone just wants to identify with Jarvis.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:36 / 14.09.05
I don't think anyone has suggested that Jarvis Cocker was or is middle class. It's pretty much established otherwise.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
02:10 / 15.09.05
In which case you've got your clear moral distinction - Kaiser Cheifs are vile little pricks looking in, Jarvis is yer actual working class hero assessing his surroundings.

Sorted.

PS: I don't think anyone's pointed out he never admitted walking through Leeds, just that he drove through it as fast as his car can muster. Pathetic. I've crawled across parts of Leeds arseholed. I am 100% braver than the Kaiser Cheifs, and I probably deserve some kind of medal to prove it.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
02:18 / 15.09.05
To make it more clear, I don't think Mis-Shapes is about an Indie-kid utopia or indie kids in general - I think it's about working class kids who want a bit more than the life the establishment has attempted to impose on them, and the kind of shit they get for not following the crowd who are quite happy to stay unwittingly downtrodden. That's my point of contention - compairing it to I Predict a Riot seems to be like compairing shoes and fish.

(Shoes are clearly superior)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:09 / 15.09.05
Yes, I think I agree with you on that. Even in 'Mis-shapes', you don't get the sense that the singer is sneering at "the unwashed other" like you do with the Little Chefs' song. It's fairly explicit that the singer is in the same social and economic situation as the people he's perceiving himself as persecuted by, and while there's some exasperated revenge fantasy going on, it just doesn't grate with the same kind of "final solution for stupid drunk chav scum" unpleasantness of the Little Chefs.
 
  

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