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Making the comics forum better.

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Regrettable Juvenilia

18:19 / 08.09.05

Warewullf:

Lastly, I don't read indie/underground/small press comics so pardon me if I get bit more excited about Klarion than the lastest chicken scratchings printed on toilet papaer from Small-therefore-more-interesting-and-worthy Press.

"pardon me"
"chicken scratchings"
"toilet paper"

No slagging there? Honestly?

19:08 / 08.09.05

Honestly. I was slagging the way certain people seem to think a given book is more important and worthy of discussion htan something by The Big Two purely because it's printed by a small press company.

Regrettable Juvenilia

19:24 / 08.09.05

Who thinks that, then?

19:35 / 08.09.05

Oh for fuck sake...

Look, I'm not getting into this, it's not helpful.

Haus of Mystery

20:16 / 08.09.05

No! FIGHT!! That's why everyone came to Barbelith.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:33 / 08.09.05

So you were criticising an attitude you think certain people have, but you can't say who or why you think they have this attitude. And asking you to unpack this is perceived as some form of aggression.

Okay then.

20:37 / 08.09.05

Not can't.

Won't.

Because this thread had been derailed enough and because I'm going to name names.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:07 / 08.09.05

Dude, be responsible with your statements, really. Otherwise you will be criticised. If you don't want to sound like you're denigrating other people's choice of reading matter, don't sound like etc.

I think the comics issue is a bit circular - people want to talk about popular comics, and popular comics tend to be out more often, because published on a monthly schedule. It mightmake sense to do indie comics thematically to see if that presents a bit more comment. Simply, though, I think mainstream, more widely available comics (inasmuch as any comics are widely available) will always be priority, because more people will be eager to talk about them, at least for the period of their immediate release. The slow-burny thing probably has to be used to advantage, if at all possible...

22:28 / 08.09.05

Look, I'm not getting into this, it's not helpful.

Funny, that. I thought the not helpful bit was when you attributed a set of opinions to "certain people" in order to try and make your point stick, then failed to back it up in any way whatsoever.

In lieu of you having the decency (or courage, or ability) to "name names", I'm going to have to presume that at least some of that was aimed at me. Y'know, given that you've made your "big two" comment and, so far, I'm the only person to have mentioned DC and Marvel in this thread. If that's the case, can I suggest you flick back a page and make an effort to read what I posted, not what you'd like to imagine I posted so that you could get yourself into a fluster about perceived notions of "worth"? That'd be helpful, at least.

Then again, if it wasn't aimed at me, maybe it'd be helpful if you took the time to consider this an example of why making "certain people" comments is a bit of stupid thing to do, yeah?

23:53 / 08.09.05

Well, so much to reply to, and so much of it disappointing...

A recurring theme amongst many posters seems to be a strange and rather baffling unwillingness to attempt to make the comics better and/or make it a forum that is a more welcoming place for other comic readers. Specifically, there seems to be some hostility to less frequent comic readers who are not necessarily completely enamoured with the works of a small group of comics creators who specialise in an equally narrow genre within their chosen medium.

Warewulf - If you have something to say, some criticism to make, then make it rather than tossing around vague insinuations.

As to your less than helpful and ludicrously inaccurate assertion that all comics apart from those published by Marvel or DC are "chicken scratchings printed on toilet papaer from Small-therefore-more-interesting-and-worthy Press" - I think you could really do with reading some the comics, from around the world and from the past and present, that form the rich and varied tapestry that is comics. It could certainly go some way to illustrating massive errors within your assertion and hopefully discourage you from making such patently ridiculous comments in the future.

Back onto the topic, which is, lest we forget, ways of making the comics forum better,,,

I think Persephone and Haus both make valuable points, about the variable length of time various types of comics require to be produced, read, fully digested and so on. I'm not if or how these points could be acted upon to make the comics forum more inviting to more than it's current denizens.

Keith, like a scientist

01:09 / 09.09.05

i had a brainstorm in the shower earlier. forgive me if this has ever been mentioned before...I didn't see anything.

To cut down on frivolous/duplicate topics, what if creating New Topics were governed by the Distributed Moderation aspect of the forum. New Topics need the agreement of 3 moderators to go live.

1. Someone creates a topic, but it doesn't go live on the page.

2. It goes to the moderators, who determine based on the 3 agreements system, whether or not it should go up.

3. If a moderator sees a frivolous topic ("A Soldier Must Die!"), then can make a note of it saying it should really just be folded into another topic (in this case, the main 7S topic).

This would probably shake out a lot of silly topics.

In the Film/TV forum, there were a couple Kill Bill topics, that could have easily been one. So if a moderator would have just said "This info should go in the previous KB topic. Please post there." it would have eliminated duplicate discussions.

With GM interviews/basic news, moderators could always steer people to add their bit of news/interview to one central topic.

I wouldn't be afraid of any moderator saying "no, that's a stupid topic. rejected!" because my experience has been that everyone is very impartial, and doesn't let personal taste weigh on their moderation duties.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

06:49 / 09.09.05

No, sorry, I think that's going beyond what a moderator should be doing. As a board where the moderators try to work in as transparent a manner as possible I don't think we want to be seen as standing between people and posting on the board, merely cleaning up after them. Give us control over allowing people to start new topics and I guarentee that within a month someone will have accused Haus with no proof of stopping them from starting a topic.

I'm all for trying to find/create some general topics where we can collate things like short threads announcing more Grant Morrison interviews, I'm a bit confused as I seem to be reading that some people think that one thread per seperate Seven Soldiers title is too many, we had much the same discussion before the G&G forum opened up. What I will suggest perhaps is that we limit the discussion of something like Astonishing X-Men to perhaps two threads, one for speculation and spoilers and one for discussion of each issue as it's published, it make it easier to find.

But looking back on this thread, if people want more discussion of indie titles they've got to create it. If the forum is full of people talking about stuff from the Big Two then that's sadly because people who are on Barbelith want to talk about stuff from the Big Two.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:49 / 09.09.05

Also, the possibility that your thread may never see the light of day would almost certainly lead to people putting less effort into their opening posts, just in case...

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:43 / 09.09.05

That's a concern - it may even be worth having "Would anyone like to talk about..." openings, to see if anyone's interested in discussing a low-circulation comic or writer. I'm interested in possibly talking about Minimum Wage, for example, or the whole corpus of Andi Watson, but I don't know if anyone has any interest in them...

12:11 / 09.09.05

I am. Well, Andi Watson's opus as a whole, because I've not read Minimum Wage.

Haus of Mystery

14:41 / 09.09.05

How about everyone who feels the Comics forum needs improvement creates a thread over there, of the type that you would like to contribute to? It seems like the logical and practical thing to do.

Or we could stay here and bicker?

15:10 / 09.09.05

I'm not sure it's that simple MacGyver, although that would definitely be a start, especially if it is a sustained effort from all comics forum posters rather than a one off thing.

18:22 / 09.09.05

Because I don't like to go in the comics. Because igives the impression of hostility to less-fanatic comic readers. As I think several people have said.

Solitaire Rose said (bottom of prev. page) 'we need new blood' and I agree, but the reason for that is the perceived Steve-Dave flavour of the place puts new blood off. I like chicken-scratchings, I like Green Lantern, Batman, Spiderman & X-Men about the same, but I don't really talk about them because by the time I get there the new issue has been done to death and nobody wants to talk about them. For example Promethea- by the time the last issue actually came out it was too late to talk about it (and anyway it was mostly 'I like the blue side' and similar earth-shaking issues.)

How to make the comics forum more attractive? I don't know, but a wider range of reading styles should be encouraged. If I want to talk about Zenith, or Miller's 300, or a TPB of Y the last man months after it's release, why not?

Tryphena Absent

18:57 / 09.09.05

I'd like to see people recommend things that I might want to read... at the moment the forum is so intense that I either get lost or bored and I never know what to buy in shops because I just can't judge what to look at. I find it a little overwhelming. If there was a general recommendations thread that included descriptions of the type of work things were that would be really helpful for people who are a bit crap at browsing. Basically I'd like it to broaden out so there isn't only basic analysis but room for people like me who don't have a clue what's going on.

miss wonderstarr

20:55 / 10.09.05

I am doing my bit, or trying to, RIGHT NOW.

01:23 / 11.09.05

Nina, if you want recommendations then ask for them

All you need to do is post saying "I'm looking for comics. I'm interested in x, y & z and I've enjoyed reading a, b & c in the past but I didn't fancy j, k & l. Any suggestions?" People can take it from there and others can post recommendation requests later on too.

Bob is indeed your uncle.

03:09 / 11.09.05

I know its kind of lazy to start a thread with a link but I've just done so here.
Mods feel free to expand the abstract or make it rhyme or whatever.

miss wonderstarr

17:01 / 11.09.05

I think my million-word photo-essay about 1980s comic book design is about to get knocked off the forum by more puzzling over p13 panel 5 of Klarion #3.

19:07 / 11.09.05

Perhaps discussions are more popular than essays?

miss wonderstarr

19:42 / 11.09.05

It was meant to be an essay in parts, written as I went along, to invite discussion -- I had some good conversation stemming from a similar piece about Steve Yeowell on here, some time back -- but you can't make people read and respond. Still, I enjoyed doing it and I suppose others might still discover it.

19:59 / 11.09.05

I think it's an interesting piece, Kovacs; the mid '80s was when I discovered comics, so I'm finding it particularly evocative. I'm not sure there's much opening for discussion, though, other than to say, "yeah, I agree", so don't feel slighted if it doesn't attract the input it deserves.

20:39 / 11.09.05

Some interesting new threads in the last few days - we shall see how they progress...

On Kovacs thread - it did seem to grow too quickly and, as Ganesh alludes to, form more of an essay rather than a discussion piece, not anything wrong with that necessarily, but it does change the dynamic somewhat. Perhaps if there had been more time before the posting of each segment there might have been more room for discussion and interaction... As it stands it may take me a while to simply read it, let alone compose any possible response to it (either in part or total)...

miss wonderstarr

21:05 / 11.09.05

Yeah, fair comment... the truth is that if I hadn't ploughed through it this weekend, I wouldn't have had time and energy to do it at all. I can see how it comes across as a bit too complete and finished for anyone to contribute to, because it wound up so long, but that wasn't intentional. More like once I started, I just had to keep going, and it growed.

Anyway I won't feel hard done-by if it doesn't turn into a discussion, but naturally I hope some people will read it.

21:14 / 11.09.05

I don't mean to discourage you in any way, but yes - Perhaps in future you could still write in the white heat, while the iron is hot, getting it all down as a rough draft and then 'serialise' it - post the first bit and see who bites. The next week you could bump yr topic up with the second part and see where it goes from there, making sure to re-edit/expand upon your initial draft in light of any comments made...

Tryphena Absent

21:43 / 11.09.05

if you want recommendations then ask for them All you need to do is post saying "I'm looking for comics. I'm interested in x, y & z and I've enjoyed reading a, b & c in the past but I didn't fancy j, k & l. Any suggestions?"

Well yes but the problem is that I don't know what I'm looking for. How many people in the Comics forum are actually going to understand when I say "I'm looking for more domesticated comics, things that apply to real life or have snappy writing" or alternatively not degenerate the thread into an argument about what a snob I am for not wanting to read 7 Soldiers because I don't like the pictures.

Tryphena Absent

21:46 / 11.09.05

But all this is nil and void since BioK9 jumped in... and Sleaze I am going to flick through Gemma Bovery next time I'm in the vicinity of a shop that sells GN's.

22:04 / 12.09.05

Wow, do you buy your assumptions in bulk?

ONLY NICE THINGS

06:50 / 13.09.05

'Splain, please, Triplets?

The Natural Way

20:18 / 14.09.05

Think perhaps that does sound snobbish, Nina. The 'pictures' in S7 are hardly some kind of homogenous, superheroey gloop. Between Frazer Irving, Cam Stewart and JHW3, you've got a whole host of visual styles represented. Sounds like yr making a blanket assumption to me. But then again you could have checked out all the books and I could be wrong....

Anyway...back to improving forums.

07:04 / 15.09.05

It occurs to me that one of the problems we've had is that outside the big two, the next big three are basically not that much different (assuming that we're prepared to be generous and consider Wildstorm and Image as separate entities from the Big Two). I don't think it's unreasonable for us to assume that the bulk of conversation will be inevitably focused around the bulk of the comics, and my personal opinion is that we really need to be raising the quality of (some of) the threads that talk about mainstream comics rather than hoping that more people will write about small press stuff.

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