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Making the comics forum better.

  
  

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sleazenation
23:36 / 05.09.05
For some time now I've been rather disappointed by the comics forum. As with the magic and music forums, I fear that the comics forum has become a ghetto, as much of a ghetto, in fact, as many of the most stereotypically bad comic shops out there.

So I'm asking the rest of barbelith, what sort of threads would you like to see in the comics forum? What would tempt you in to join, or perhaps even start a debate that would extend beyond superheroes and/or George Morrison's latest comic? Is there anything that particularly puts you off?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:50 / 05.09.05
You only need to look at the current first index page to see what puts me off: out of the thirty threads on offer, thirteen of them are about or directly related to Morrison product (or "Grant Morrison to wash clothes", or whatever today's exercise in banality is). Twenty-two of them are about Marvel and DC superhero books.

To say that the forum appears limited in the range of subject matter up for discussion would be to put it mildly.

I used to base my comics reading on things that I saw recommended here. As I have little to no interest in generic superhero books and increasingly little time for Morrison, even opening up the forum feels pointless and, as a result, I'm now not buying anything regularly. If it's going to engage me again (and I know this is totally a personal thing, but that's what was asked for), it's going to have to rekindle my interest in the medium itself by promoting discussion about something other than yet another 7 Soldiers miniseries or another X-title/cross-over event that nobody's even enjoying anyway - not even the people keeping those threads bumped.

I'm sure there must be interesting trades out there, for example, or small independent series that even my (rather rubbish) local store would be able to get in for me if I asked. So let me - and the others who used to post to Comics quite often and have since decided it's no longer worth the bother - know about them.

I also think that there could be a case for more stringent moderation where certain of the topics created are concerned. Is the news that Morrison and Quietly are designing Robbie Williams' new album cover deserving of a thread of its own? Does that thread even belong in Comics? Does a thread telling us that there's a Beast figurine available serve any real purpose at all?

Do we need yet another topic devoted to moaning about how Morrison hasn't added anything to his site for ages? News just in - website isn't updated for two years! doesn't strike me as the best use of Barbelith, really. Did any of the mods ever actually get in touch with jhw3 to tell him that this isn't his own personal advertising space?

Also, do we really have to have a new thread every time a new issue of certain ongoing series is released? Even if the place is currently a bit swamped by 7 Soliders threads, at least people are having the sense to talk about subsequent issues in the original threads. So why on Earth do we have to have a new thread every month for Astonishing X-Men, a comic which, apparently, those reading it aren't even liking very much? Month 1: New issue out, it's not very good. Month 2: New issue out, it's not very good again. I'm afraid I just don't see the point.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:59 / 06.09.05
I agree that we should be using one thread for all discussion on one title, the only possible problem I can see is the old question of spoilers (again), we have some people that scour the websites and whatever that title is that comic shops use to order their comics from suppliers and discussions of comics start months before they're out with lots of theorizing and whatnot, this could make for confusing threads, issue y has just come out, but at the same time people are discussing issue y+1 and y+2.

I certainly think Limited Series should be discussed in one thread but I'm not sure if we can go much further than that. But was there ever that large a discussion of indie stuff? I think it's more that the existing biases of the forum have expanded. I am concerned that the tone of discussion in there is often a bit too "You tell him Steve-Dave!", and mocking those poor sad fools on the Byrne-Board, though I'll admit I'm as guilty of that as the next person.
 
 
Ganesh
06:41 / 06.09.05
Agree with much of the above, but I think Seven Soldiers, being a set of interlocking yet stand-alone mini-serieses ('mini-series''?), is something of a special case, and probably does deserve a separate thread for each component part.
 
 
Tom Coates
06:51 / 06.09.05
I think the per issue threads are actually quite practical in some ways because - as people have said - they circumvent spoilers but more importantly because the threads are posted to a lot. There are very few other parts of the board where eight threads on the front page have more than 200 posts (some approaching 800). And, the threads themselves - although a bit fanboyish - tend to be perfectly serviceably written. The main problem is the subjects of the threads themselves - more specifically an absence of some higher order thought / criticism / independent stuff.

One way to restore that kind of level of discussion is to go back through some of the archive threads and find the kinds of things that you think people should be talking about more and either bump them or start new threads along those lines. Within reason the only way to get the forum to go in a different direction is for a few people to make the effort to start and maintain those conversations until they become normal.
 
 
Quantum
14:01 / 06.09.05
I am concerned that the tone of discussion in there is often a bit too "You tell him Steve-Dave!" Lady

Heh. I consider myself a comic geek and I don't often go there, as I find it often simultaneously boring and intimidating- I'm not comic-geek enough. If I want to discuss the TPBs of 'Y the last man', I fear a response of 'That's so last year, wait until you see the transgender monkey issue where he kills his sister!'. Whether or not that's the case, the fear keeps me away. I fear Steve-Dave's wrath, and I don't think I'm alone.

As a ghetto resident, am I atypical? Am I allowed to post if I only read collections from the library, rather than this months hot off the press X-People/Superbastards crossover chrome-cover lettered by Grant's Mum?
 
 
grant
14:52 / 06.09.05
Well, what if there's a single "What else is Grant Morrison up to?" thread that all the record covers/film pitches/whatever get chucked into?

The only threads I read in there are the Surgeries, which are fun even when I'm not "interested" in whatever trivia is being tossed around, and the Seven Soldiers ones. Sometimes I pop into the "What's worth getting this week" thread, but not all that often.
 
 
sleazenation
15:34 / 06.09.05
The problem with having so many 'Seven Soldiers' threads bobbing up to the surface is it effectively downs out threads on other things and actively turns off anyone who isn't interested in that particular Multi-part crossover.
 
 
Shrug
16:24 / 06.09.05
How possible and/or difficult (and I think it's been mentioned before) would it be to create a kind of branching thread(kind of forumlites) for these multipart phenomenons?
(see also:Lost)
It would clear up the forums a little at least, smaller topics would get more notice and it'd make the forum more appealing to hesitant posters not immediately interested in this particular Morristravaganza.
 
 
Tom Coates
18:05 / 06.09.05
It's not easy to be honest - they'd have to go in one place and then all be moved over by hand later. I think we're kind of stuck with it - and I have to say that I personally definitely feel that the Seven Soldiers stuff is right up there as the most important thing happening in superhero comics at the moment and I don't begrudge the discussions about it. The Lost stuff is more complex again, and I think if we could find a way around having multiple threads for each type of viewer we would do. The only option I can think of there is having an episode by episode thread, and that's even worse.

I maintain that our only reasonable option at the moment is to start newer conversations in different areas -- to try and push the debate on a bit. It's not ideal, but I can't see another option.
 
 
Shrug
19:10 / 06.09.05
Well that's fair enough then.
One more suggestion and then I'll shut up.
Remember recently there was a problem with ghost threads Link. Could we make use of this? For example as regards 7Soldiers could the tributaries(context:stream) be made non bumping ghost threads with the general 7soldiers thread having a first post with clear links to each subtopic? It might solve some problems.

BTW: I agree with you Tom and don't really begrudge 7Soldiers or Lost fans the right to post/dissect/enjoy the threads in question at all. I'm, in varying degrees, a contributor to(or at least poster in) threads on both subjects. But upon reading this topic I became concerned about posters(possibly hesitant ones) who lack interest in or have only a passing interest in 7S/Lost might be discouraged from the forums in question. That being said the search function is present to find anything that they might have more of an interest in and as in this thread people are encouraged to start/contribute to topics on what isn't present/piques there interest.

(Apologies for possible/probable incoherence)
 
 
sleazenation
19:58 / 06.09.05
The search function is no substitute for a wider range of threads available for the casual browser, just as having access to an almost limitless variety of comics and magazine via the internet is no substitute to being able to browse through a decent range of publications at your local comic or magazine shop.

I don't begrudge 7S's readers from having a place to discuss the comic, I do think we could have done with fewer threads to do this in however... it isn't like there are spoiler issues here between the various threads. I suppose I should just be thankful that each issue of each series isn't getting its own thread...

But yes, I don't want to get too bogged down in 7S - I think the problems and narrow range of the comics forum in recent months and years are far more widespread problems...
 
 
Shrug
20:02 / 06.09.05
Ooops has already mentioned by Triplets in the spoilers thread. I still think it's a good idea though. Ignore that part of my above post then.
 
 
Triplets
12:52 / 07.09.05
The main problem is the subjects of the threads themselves - more specifically an absence of some higher order thought / criticism / independent stuff.

Which makes me laugh, because the multiple SSOV threads are probably the best examples of critical comic analysis I've seen on this forum, something that'd be diminished by constricting it to one space.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:29 / 07.09.05
This thread's a pretty good example of what I'm talking about.

"Seaguy Returns!" yells opening poster, in a post that could - and, y'know, should - have been added to the "New Grant Morrison Interviews" thread right in front of hir eyes instead of having a brand new one devoted to it. "No, no he doesn't," says the third reply, sorting that all out for us quite nicely.

But then the thread stays there and keeps getting bumped, adding yet another pointless topic to the first page and pushing something else that might have actually been quite interesting onto page two. I'd have been tempted to post a link to that active Interviews thread, ask for any discussion (perish the thought) springing from it to be continued over there, or in one of the many other Seaguy threads where the question of a second volume has already been done to death, put this one up for locking.

Is it just the case that this has become accepted practice in Comics now - creating new threads every time somebody associated with Seaguy/Invisibles/X-Men farts - and there's not really any way of changing it?
 
 
Ganesh
20:39 / 07.09.05
Perhaps we should go with LouiseMichel's line of reasoning, and go Hello!-gushy instead of fanboy-gushy? More mainstream...
 
 
The Falcon
23:07 / 07.09.05
An all-purpose GM thread seems like a good idea; we had one for Milligan but it died some time ago.

Tom's advice seems thoroughly sound, here. You probably only need 3 folk to continue a depthy chat. I guess I'm part of the problem inasmuch as I like superheroes, and Grant Morrison comics in particular, a very great deal. And this is/was the primary reason I post on Barbelith. I suspect I may not be solely guilty in this respect.

I'm pretty sure it's Bedhead's detournement of the Batman 100 thread that's inspired this, right? Some lovely writing thar, but nothing I can particularly hang my hat on, having read fully five Pope comics; I'd thought of offering Darwyn Cooke as a counterpoint, given both's status and recent Solo offerings, which I have read.

There's possibly also the problem that some topics fall between two forae; I remember back when I started there was stuff on Midnighter, 'the wrong bastard', in either Switchboard or Head Shop and it seemed a decent conversation-enabler there. All for more critical thinking on the old pop culture though, and I'll do my best to promote it.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
04:23 / 08.09.05
I like a centralized Morrison topic (my friend always harps on about how this type of forum isn't "threaded," but "topic-based") that is for interviews, random news, and general gushing.

I like that there are separate topics for each Seven Soldier mini, but allow that it's perhaps not needed. My only worry is...isn't there some kind of upper limit to topics, or are they completely open-ended in terms of length?

My thinking is that the original Seven Soldiers topic was something like 400 posts and 10 pages long before the first mini came out. If it had been incorporating all information on each mini in it...I can only imagine the sheer size of it. Perhaps this isn't a concern, and it would certainly help with the issue of the entire first page of the forum being 7S topics.

I think it works well for something like Powers, which has one topic that people add to once in awhile.

It's obvious which books will get the most discussion. Anything GM glances at, and anything that Warren Ellis attempts to write (how dare he!).

Moderation of topics like the multiple GM interviews and the "Seaguy Returns!" topic is completely understandable.

But I don't think there is way to basically force people to discuss things other than what is popular. Cleaning it up isn't really going to make room for a sudden blooming of indie comix discussion...

^ramble^sorry^
 
 
sleazenation
06:33 / 08.09.05
Again, my aim with this thread wasn't necessarily to bash the overabundence of 7S threads, but

My thinking is that the original Seven Soldiers topic was something like 400 posts and 10 pages long before the first mini came out.

This is kind of part of the problem problem. How much can be usefully said about a series before it comes out? Do we really need 300+ posts of people basically saying 'i'm really excited and can't wait to see this'? A little bit of self control wouldn't go amiss.

And yeah, I don't think this is about such a limited binary opposition as indie comics Vs superhero comics. Comics is a far broader subject that covers a rich history, a wide variety of subject matter and an equally varied range of forms... I'm just asking for input on how best to make the comics forum a place that is more adequately reflects this, that is more welcoming for a wider variety of casual posters, and something that is broader than the narrow ghetto that it all too often resembles at the moment.
 
 
sleazenation
07:34 / 08.09.05
Another less than indispensible 7S thread...
 
 
Warewullf
09:36 / 08.09.05
This is kind of part of the problem problem. How much can be usefully said about a series before it comes out? Do we really need 300+ posts of people basically saying 'i'm really excited and can't wait to see this'? A little bit of self control wouldn't go amiss.

Hang on a minute here. I know you're not knocking the Seven Soldiers threads but I have to say a few things.

For starters, that thread was more than people saying how jazzed they were at the idea - there was a trickle of information that came out in the months before 7S started including character sketches which begged discussion and speculation. And let's not forget, the majority of people first came to this site because they are Morrison fans so it's understandable that a huge project like 7S would cause a lot of discussion and speculation.

Secondly, Seven Soldiers was designed so that each mini-series could be read individually therefore a thread for each is not unreasonable.

Lastly, I don't read indie/underground/small press comics so pardon me if I get bit more excited about Klarion than the lastest chicken scratchings printed on toilet papaer from Small-therefore-more-interesting-and-worthy Press.

To be honest, I'm not going to stop posting on fan-boy embarrasments like the Sugery threads just because some people think it's not high-brow enough. I post here because it's fun. I can contribute to those threads. What use would I be if the Comics Forum was entirely devoted to comics by... by... see?! I can't even think of anyone!

As for the all-purpose Morrison thread, it's a fine idea but where would the thread go? He's writing novels, books on magic and video games as well as designing album covers/promotion so where do you put all this stuff so that everyone can see it? Plus, it's fine to have a thread saying "he'll be doing X, Y and Z" but when X, Y and Z come out there will be individual threads on them...

Back to actively turns off anyone who isn't interested in that particular Multi-part crossover.

I don't entirely understand this. The thread keeps coming up to the top because it's a popular topic. Creating threads on other, less wel known comics is all well and good but they'll die off because
1) No one is reading them and
2) No one wants to talk about them.

People know what Barbelith is like. They know that if they want to create a thread carefully discesting and examining the latest work by their favourite creator, they can.

12 different Seven Soldier threads doesn't stop them from doing it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:12 / 08.09.05
Maybe not, but it sure as hell stops anybody else from seeing it.
 
 
Warewullf
10:16 / 08.09.05
Alright, that's a fair point.
 
 
Ganesh
11:01 / 08.09.05
I remember when all this were Invisibles - or, at least, when there were a number of threads examining different thematic aspects of the same comic. I quite liked that approach.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:06 / 08.09.05
With the 7S thing rather than the overall point- I think each of the seven needs its own thread, plus one for the two bookenders and overall story. To use an analogy- not been following this Infinite Crisis thing, but if it were, say, Crisis or Secret Wars 2, there'd be no reason NOT to still have your Hulk thread, your Batman thread... or if (in Music) various Wu-Tangers had albums out simultaneously, I don't think there'd be a call to have them all lumped in under one WTC thread.

...I don't really see any other way round it. Of course, any MORE threads would be seriously over-egging the pudding, mind...

Were there (say) 23 Soldiers, I could see it being a problem...
 
 
Warewullf
11:13 / 08.09.05
I agree. Plus, Shining Kinght and Manhattan Guardian have just finished and both Klarion and Zatanna are nearly done so their respective threads will die off shortly.

(Uh, to be replaced with the next four. But then they will die off after about 4 months as well... )
 
 
Persephone
12:00 / 08.09.05
But do you know, apart from the visibility issue --it takes a long time to write a decent explication of anything. I mean, it does for me. And then somebody says, You're thinking too hard! You're ruining all the fun! That just kills it for me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:12 / 08.09.05
I really like the way loads of people are objecting to the 'A Soldier Must Die' thread by bumping it.
 
 
Quantum
13:39 / 08.09.05
the majority of people first came to this site because they are Morrison fans Warewulff

I'm not sure that's true.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:44 / 08.09.05
Isn't it locked (yet)?
 
 
_Boboss
13:49 / 08.09.05
morrisonia is the only thing that barbelith does at which it is teh best on teh web. facto. we've had this conversation before - the threads about canadacomix just don't last: ' did you read this latest B&Waganza by William Nomates?' 'yeah, god, aren't you glad you're not that self regarding twoon?' 'yes.' the end.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:26 / 08.09.05
facto.

No no, opiniono.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:32 / 08.09.05
The thing is, I don't actually mind there being a thread for each Seven Soldiers mini. But some people aren't doing themselves any favours by trotting out old myths like "everybody came for the Morrison comics" - Jesus, have you not checked how many people post in many fora but don't post in Comics? - or by making fun of black & white small press comics. Those kind of comics are only as easy to mock as spandex-with-an-edgy-edge.
 
 
Warewullf
16:13 / 08.09.05
I didn't say everybody loves Morrison. And fine, maybe when the site first started it was true that the people who came here did so because they were fans. That's no longer the case. Grand. I was wrong.

However, I'm not slagging off small press comics- I'm saying if they were so popular and so many Lithers were reading them, wouldn't there be more threads on them already?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:51 / 08.09.05
As one of the moderators of the comics forum, I try to start threads that are more than just "this is really cool", but my time has been severely limited.

We're also in a time, in comics, where the mainstream super-hero stuff is vacuuming up all of the dollars, are of the press, and most of the creators...so it really causes discussion that would have been spread out to other threads down to a few super-hero books. Maybe a thread on that, as well as a thread on "are comics dying like Barbelith does every few weeks" is in order.

But, good converstion is popping up in places...and I think that the problem in comics is that we all know each other too well, and we're all having the same conversations and need new blood.
 
  

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