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Politics, comics and Paul Pope's Batman 100

 
  

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quinine92001
16:20 / 03.09.05
Anyone hear anything about Pope's vision of Batman 100 yeas after his first appearance in 1939? I've heard its supposed to be a 200 page graphic novel and it makes Bruce Wayne out to look like David Becham, have the brains of Tesla, and be nothing but sheer sci fi goodness.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:29 / 03.09.05
Her ya go. Exhaustive interview, preview art, the works.

Short version: BATMAN: YEAR 100. 4 issue prestige format miniseries, early 2006. Premise: "What if Batman were created in 2039, rather than 1939?"

The full-color art looks typically gorgeous (though I prefer Pope with a limited pallette), but the book itself interests me not at all.
 
 
Bed Head
16:49 / 03.09.05
Pope said it was his own beliefs that led him to create this future America where it's like a police state. "I'm a political cynic," Pope said. "I'm Libertarian. There's worrisome stuff in the world. The thing I wanted to seriously address and I hope that others will respond to, is that we live in a world where the reality is we face weapons of mass destruction and are in a position where there really are people in the world who want to hurt us.

Ughh. I’ve been meaning to start a thread about Pope’s politics for ages now. They’re totally starting to get in the way of me enjoying the, uh, artistic side of his stuff.
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
21:11 / 03.09.05
I've heard its supposed to be a 200 page graphic novel and it makes Bruce Wayne out to look like David Becham

Becham? If I had to pick one football player to be Batman, I think I would actually go with Figo.



He has that dark manly man look I associate with Batman.
 
 
Bed Head
17:08 / 04.09.05
Well, okay then. As no-one else is replying to this thread, and as it doesn’t actually have an abstract, rather than go down the ‘which footballer do you think Batman should look like?’ route (correct answer: Cantona, duh), I’ll just hijack this thread for this post rather than starting a new one... apart from anything else, because Pope *has* just claimed that his 'Batman 100' comic will be reflecting his political views, and I think they could do with a little public discussion. Or, at any rate, I’m interested in how one might respond to them...


Okay, pls excuse the length of the post, but some context. Because here’s the thing with right-wing politics and superheroes: I really enjoy Steve Ditko comics. I can’t even say it’s *just* because of his artwork; yer 60s mainstream Marvelsuperhero Ditko is fucking brilliant, obviously, but I really enjoy settling down with a cup of coffee and one of his nutty later comics. For reference, I mean the stuff that reads like this:



...using superheroes as medium for his, er, ‘social comment.’ I think it’s heady stuff, stories being driven along by all the things he seems to be angry about/fixated on. His art often has this buttoned down, metronome, obsessive quality - always the 50s style hats and suits, always the cool guy and the, uh, strident woman, always the strict 9-panel grid. And it all comes from somewhere inside him: the page from ‘Killjoy’ I posted above was drawn in 1988, for example, yet the way he draws street scenes makes it look as though he hasn’t stepped outside in the last 30 years; the way he cross-hatches has little connection to any patterns or textures I’ve ever seen in the real world. And this very rigid technique in his later work makes for a particularly startling effect on the pages when his loony creativity breaks loose and flows all over the place. It’s the sheer intensity of this stuff that makes me love Ditko. Unlike some other objectionable fucknut like, say, John Byrne, who’s just too dull to bear.

But these tracts of Ditko’s aren’t going to convince anyone. I’m feel quite sure there’s no way in hell that his screechy rants are going to make the world a significantly more unpleasant or dangerous place, or convert anyone to the joys of Objectivism. He's harmless.


So, Paul Pope. I dunno, I think maybe I’ve been taking Pope’s political stuff to just be a self-conscious steal from Ditko. Like a boy dressing up as Travis Bickle because he looks cool and intense, or something. But it’s not, is it? His libertarian thing *isn’t* a pose, he's perfectly sincere, and I’m starting to read ThB as being All About his politics.

I realise this may not be much of a revelation to the rest of you, in which case skip right along to the point where I ask you what you think. But, for those who don’t know, ThB is Pope’s long-running sci-fi series set on Mars. It’s damn pretty:



The Buranchists are the representatives of an oppressive government - pretty much a right-winger’s caricature of socialism, in which all officials are portrayed as being less than human. That’s less than human because they’ve surrendered their individuality to authority - they’re still people somewhere inside their, er, insect suits. It’s not particularly subtle. Not that it needs to be, of course. He's just prepping the canvas.

So, the actual plot, once you look beyond the girl/giant robot/hipster kids being chased around a weird future city stuff, and look to see what’s driving this narrative, it’s about a dispute between HR Watson’s father, who is a businessman, and this crazystrange caricature of a socialist government. The cause of this dispute has only just been revealed in the latest issue - it’s because he wants to mine the asteroid belt, free from government interference. Yet the precise nature of this 'interference' and how it affects the details of Watson’s plan is all a bit sketchy and doesn’t make too much sense to me - if anyone wants to explain, I’d be obliged. It seems to be pitched merely as government vs entrepreneur, in those very essential terms. As though that's a fundamental struggle in Pope's view.

But, y’know, it seems to me there’s a real world parallel to that story going on right now, is there not? It’s not as if he decided to write Mr Watson as a businessman who’s only trying to evade ‘crippling taxes,’ or looking for a better profit margin on his robots, or something like that. No, this entire narrative is being propelled along by a businessman’s efforts to assert his inalienable right to explore and exploit pristine wilderness for personal enrichment, in defiance of any non-specified government regulation. I mean, that’s a struggle that’s happening now. In the real world.

...er, is what I think. The point I’m trying to make here, is that Pope’s *fundamental* politics are there throughout the comics he writes, and that the right of free enterprise to exploit natural resources kinda underpins a current right-wing agenda to roll back environmental regulations in the real world, and I think that Pope is writing science fiction in such a way as to position himself in relation to contemporary debates.

Not that right-wing allegories are a particularly unusual thing in science-fiction, but Pope can sometimes be inclined to write in a way that isn’t really any less prescriptive than Ditko - compare this spiel about property rights and freedom



with this sequence from ThB, where Lottie finds and reads a banned book, helpfully repeating the key points, just so we don’t miss them:



...and so on. An entire chapter, inserted so as to explain precisely what you should think of this society. And that voice, the Voice Of Pope, seems pretty crooked in the way it presents a definition of 'forcible intervention' and in the way the criticism of democracy is set up, as vaguely opposing the freedom that Lottie is reading about.


Well, anyway, so what? Hardly anyone reads ThB. But what about his mainstream work? As we are now being promised a 200 page sci-fi Batman which he says will reflect his libertarian views, let’s not imagine Paul Pope could *ever* mean ‘libertarian’ in the Chomskyish, Michael Moorcockish, ‘libertarian socialist’-ish sense of the word. Pope’s short ‘Berlin Batman’ story might be one of my favourite Batman comics ever, because I think it *looks* absolutely stunning. But...

The plot - Kommissar Gordon reveals to Baruch Wane that his men have just impounded Von Mises’ library, and are about to transport it out of the city by train:



The Bat-Man swoops off to save it. Stuff Happens. He blows up the train tracks instead. Here’s the final page, the voice of Pope, speaking through ‘Robin’s secret journal.’



...that’s where his Batman story ends up. The action is over, and there’s another whole page tacked on the end, just so we get his point. And, Batman fighting Nazis - no-one’s going to argue with that. Batman preventing the destruction of someone’s library - cool, triffic. Book-burning is Evil, after all. But, Batman as eternal defender of Von Mises’ work and champion of his philosophy? *strokes chin* Hmmmm.


So, O Barb, my question. Well, first, should this even matter anyway? My gut response to this thread was that most explicitly right-wing comics are Bad because they usually look like shit and read like shit, but that I find that it's very easy to avoid such things, and that most people do. But then - there’s Ditko, and I thought I was rationalising my love of Ditko by taking him as a completely harmless crank. But then - well, people read Paul Pope. Lots of people. He’s cool and influential and stuff. He's hip. He’s pretty much the *opposite* of harmless crank, in fact.

And he can draw like dynamite. I'm not *necessarily* averse to reading comics that I can disagree with, as long as they're weird enough to be harmless. But my Ditko standard can't be applied to mainstream Pope, because he's such a pin-up for hipsters. And I'd hate to think that Pope might just be getting a free pass for his writing because he looks so damned sexy and cool.

So: thoughts, anyone?
 
 
Bed Head
17:31 / 04.09.05
I mean, the last time he did a dystopian future New York, ie in 100%, it was identified as being nightmarish and dystopian because 1.guns are illegal, and 2.Che Guevara’s face is on the dollar bills. Those were the signposts he chose, both were pretty much to the fore in the first issue: gun control. Socialism!

So, when he talks about his new Batman story being something with a superhero in a big government setting, it’s altogether possible that he’s using the term ‘big government’ in the current, pejorative sense. Is all.

Oh, and if anyone has any links to any relevant interviews or articles, that would also be useful for this thread. Pope’s been rattling off his ‘I’m a Libertarian’ shtick for a while now - I can’t remember seeing any detailed examination of that line, but surely he’s had this one out with The Comics Journal at some point?


(Also. Seeing as 1x Topic Abstract has *just* arrived, any mod care to decide whether you’d rather all this in a separate thread? I still think it could fit here, myself.)
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
19:21 / 04.09.05
Why should they be harmless? It's not like he is preaching in favor of killing kittens or anything.

There are a few political ideas that I don't think should be presented with superheroes. Gun control is one of them. I mean, I don't think people who shoot lasers out of their eyes have any moral ground to take guns away from people. But socialism and Atlas shrugged stuff? Sounds fine and dandy to me. The more harming, the more interesting.

Also, Cantona?



No no no no no no.
 
 
Bed Head
21:10 / 04.09.05
...



Okay. Why should they be harmless? I’m strange, man. I *do* prefer my right-wing extremists to be harmless, in the sense that they’re not very persuasive, because kids are reading. And because the simple-minded and impressionable may be reading. The potential is there for comics to advance a right-wing agenda rather effectively, seems to me. Stacked against this, you’ve just got the block that Libertarianism doesn’t actually come across as particularly heroic, and that maybe nobody wants to read the adventures of Selfishman.

But Pope’s really skilful, so if he wanted 200 pages of Batman on the theme of how all taxation is robbery, it’s possible there’d be a certain amount of unexamined whooping from at least a few of his readers. It’s the unexamined bit that caused me to post, and that’s why I wanted to talk about it, and pick the politics of his comics apart.

Didn't I say all this?


So, Juan_Arteaga, as long as noone writes comics that advocate any form of gun control or the killing of kittens, you don’t care to examine this aspect of his work? And comics featuring, er, ”socialism and Atlas shrugged stuff” - presumably those are the two possible extremes you can live with - are fine w/you, and you actually want to carry on with this footballer thing? Perhaps I would be better starting that new thread after all, and leaving you to carry on in here, man.
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
22:09 / 04.09.05
Okay. Why should they be harmless? I’m strange, man. I *do* prefer my right-wing extremists to be harmless, in the sense that they’re not very persuasive, because kids are reading. And because the simple-minded and impressionable may be reading.

But there are plenty of left wing comics and books and TV shows out there, too, to balance the whole thing out. I think it's somewhat intelectually selfish to think that somebody who has different ideas from you shouldn't try or be able to convince others that their ideas are good.

Unless, of course, I am not understanding you correctly and you are completely against the idea of comics presenting political ideas at all, in which case I would have to disagree because I don't think comics should be limited that way, not even the ones about Batman.

The potential is there for comics to advance a right-wing agenda rather effectively, seems to me.

*shrug* Or a left one, or whatever else shows up. Debate should be stimulated, and if it includes guys with their underwear out shooting eye beams at each other, the better for me.

Stacked against this, you’ve just got the block that Libertarianism doesn’t actually come across as particularly heroic, and that maybe nobody wants to read the adventures of Selfishman.

Well, reading the adventures of Batman trying to keep his tax money would be boring, of course. But, Batman fighting for the civil liberties of the gothamites does sound like fun. It worked for V for Vendetta, even though that book went for anarky directly.

But Pope’s really skilful, so if he wanted 200 pages of Batman on the theme of how all taxation is robbery, it’s possible there’d be a certain amount of unexamined whooping from at least a few of his readers.

I find kinda cute you are somehow worried for the simple minds of the people, but it's not how it works. It's not up to you to protect people from ideas... my... that sounds horribly totalitarian. The best you can do is to fight ideas with ideas, not simply to wish the others ideas to go away.

It’s the unexamined bit that caused me to post, and that’s why I wanted to talk about it, and pick the politics of his comics apart.

Well? Argue about the politics all you wants, that even sounds like fun, but don't waste time simply wishing he didn't do this book, even if it is for the sake of the intellectually lazy who won't question Batman.

Didn't I say all this?

It is possible. I am afraid I have to admit I am not paying a great deal of attention here. Mind you, I am not saying this to insult you or to show how little I care about the conversation, cause I freaking hate it when people show up just to say they don't care, which they wouldn't do if they actually didn't care. I am just saying I didn't read your first post as throughly as I probably should have done.

So, Juan_Arteaga, as long as noone writes comics that advocate any form of gun control

I didn't say people shouldn't write comics promoting gun control. What I said was that superheroes are not the best genre to use when you are promoting gun control. I mean, we are talking about the adventures of people that can kill you just by thinking a bit about it, so they are not the best messengers for this particular idea. If someone wants to write a pro gun control comic, I just suggest that person uses another genre, cause with superheroes it would look a bit silly.

or the killing of kittens,

Killing kittens is totally wrong, unless the kitten is going evil.

you don’t care to examine this aspect of his work?

I don't remember saying that I didn't care. In fact, I don't think I have said anything about my level of interest in this matter. But I believe the fact that I replied asking you why you want the book to be "harmless" should show that I do have some ammount of interest in this.

And comics featuring, er, ”socialism and Atlas shrugged stuff” - presumably those are the two possible extremes you can live with - are fine w/you

If you have any other possible extremes, feel free to add them to my statement. As far as I am concerned, if you can think it, you can deal with it in a comic. So yes, it is all fine with me.

I fail to see what you find so strange in my words.

, and you actually want to carry on with this footballer thing?

Not particulary, but I don't see what would be wrong with it.

Perhaps I would be better starting that new thread after all, and leaving you to carry on in here, man.

Nobody is kicking you out of this thread.
 
 
Bed Head
22:47 / 04.09.05
Good God.

Okay, I’ll simply boil that down to but don't waste time simply wishing he didn't do this book

At no point did I wish anything of the kind.

I’ll assume you’ve just been innocently misunderstanding so far, and that I won’t need to go through and correct all your misinterpretations and distortions in that last post. So, wanna try again? Feel free to bring an opinion on the comics of Paul Pope this time.
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
22:55 / 04.09.05
Okay, I’ll simply boil that down to but don't waste time simply wishing he didn't do this book

At no point did I wish anything of the kind.


You want it to be harmless and not persuasive, which for all practical purposes and results, it is the same thing.
 
 
Bed Head
23:33 / 04.09.05
You want it to be harmless and not persuasive, which for all practical purposes and results, it is the same thing.

Um... dude, it so isn’t.

I said I *prefer* my *right wing extremists* not to be persuasive. That's a personal preference and most certainly is not the same thing as wishing he didn't do this book or wishing a book doesn’t exist. This is where the bit I said about *examining* the politics in Pope’s work should come in, yes?

A reminder: the full quote that that line was yanked from:

Me: It’s the unexamined bit that caused me to post, and that’s why I wanted to talk about it, and pick the politics of his comics apart.

You:Well? Argue about the politics all you wants, that even sounds like fun, but don't waste time simply wishing he didn't do this book, even if it is for the sake of the intellectually lazy who won't question Batman.

So. Read my first long post yet? And I’m still waiting for something about Paul Pope from you.
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
00:17 / 05.09.05
Um... dude, it so isn’t.

It is. You want right wing books to exist, but you want them to be harmless and not persuasive, which means you want them to be completely incapable of causing any change whatsoever. If that is the case, they might as well not exist if they are going to useless. And don't get me started on this thing about protecting the simple minds (your term, not mine) from these evil ideas.

And I have read very little Paul Pope, so I can't have much of an opinion about his work. On the other hand, I do have plenty of opinion to go on about your posts in this thread.
 
 
LDones
15:00 / 05.09.05
Extremely well thought out posts, Bed Head. I'm not terribly familiar with most of Pope's work, but your information on both he and Ditko is concise and illuminating to your point. Terribly interesting.

On a very brief search of "Paul pope" "libertarian" I turned up the following articles that, in addition to the articles/interviews you previously posted, make it clear to me that proselytizing on the subject is a high priority for Pope.

Paul Pope - Libertarian; pagelong blurb from Advocates for Self Government

Paul Pope - Libertarian Comic Book Creator Extraordinaire - from Liberator On-Line at self-gov.org
(Search the word Paul Pope on that last one, it's down the page)

A few others were simple commentaries on the previously mentioned 1930's-era Batman story. Most, if not all, are simple fluff pieces saying "Libertarion Pop Exposure! Rad!".

Pope has an audience. One could easily say that it is sizeable. It's clear to me that he has an agenda beyond artistic expression for himself, that he's interested in persuading others toward his political point of view with his work, and has been for some time.

I think the same could be said of Ditko, though, and if I understand correctly your opinion of harmlessness toward Ditko is based around the fact that he wasn't particularly clever or persuasive with the delivery of his message.

So danger from an artist's message is derived from the size/clout of their audience and their ability to be persuasive with their statements in their work... Is this sounding along the lines of what you're feeling here?

It sounds as if the increase in scale of Pope's audience is threatening to make you cease enoying an artist's work that you've previously taken something of interest from.

Personally, if Pope takes over DC, I'd have something to worry about - though mostly from selfish consumer reasons. Anything up to then is still relatively harmless, I would think, and I'm curious what might make you think otherwise aside from his impressionable hipster audience potentially being taken with his political screeds.

To backtrack a bit, what makes an artist or their work (potentially) harmful? Does Paul Pope really qualify? Does an audience morally necessitate a responsibility in an artist to mind what he/she says, or does it exist apart from their work?
 
 
matsya
22:21 / 05.09.05
See, THIS is why I like the 'lith. Thanks, Bedhead. Couldn't get this kind of conversation in any other comics forum that I know of.

I'm a fan of Pope and I have most of his THB run, but I hadn't seen this - now glaringly obvious - libertarian angle to his THB work. Might be that the libertarian 'movement' or whatever isn't so prominent in Australia. I just read the Buranchists as a generic oppressive faceless government, rather than an indictment to socialism, though now that you point it out, I see it.

I'm not a fan of the libertarian idea as I understand it - I believe in taxation and welfare and government ownership, but the problem is that these things are often run badly or corruptly. I'm yet to be convinced that doing away with them entirely because they don't work properly is the best idea. I also wonder to what extent libertarianism is anti-democratic, which makes me wonder about exactly how different it is from a raw anarchy/survival of the fittest scenario.

As for whether Pope is dangerous or not, I know this isn't really an answer, but one idea that's always appealed to me in terms of how to 'manage' free speech (which essentially allows for hate speech and manipulative lies at its most extreme) is to engage in informed debate on whatever issue arises. Pope argues for libertarianism? Then you should argue against it.

I realise it ain't that simple, unless you're a comics auteur of Pope's standing and publication track record and you've been keeping it to yourself, Bedhead, but that's all I got, really.

And as for whether an artist should mind what they say in terms of its effect on an audience, well, I think that's probably exactly what Pope is doing. I'd say he thinks it's his responsibility to put these ideas that he thinks are so important and necessary into his work.

I just read an article by Australian author Christos Tsiolkas (he wrote Loaded and Dead Europe, the former of which was turned into the movie Head On) about a writer's responsibility to the world, in terms of making it a better place and fighting the good fight (whatever that may mean to the artist themselves), and he said that he thought there were two ways to go when writing: the political path or the aesthetic path (kind of a truth or beauty thing). His personal choice is to take the political path, and he has some issues with those who take the aesthetic path, thinking them lazy or frightened or too comfortable, and this affects his enjoyment of their work.

I've always opted for the aesthetic path, more or less, in my own art (mainly - but not only - because I'm not confident that I can get my ideas across without alienating readers, or even that I have views that can be properly expressed as part of my writing), but when backed into a corner I've often thought that even the most comfortable and non-prosletysing art often has a political message (or at least a political orientation) somewhere within it - or if not, it is possible for others to use that art in a way that aligns it with a worldview.

That said, I like Pope's take on the Batman costume design. His Robin story in his recent SOLO was pretty nif' too.

m.
 
 
sleazenation
23:07 / 05.09.05
As to second what others have said, this is the kind of thread I'd like to see more of in the comics forum.

Bedhead - while I can see why you'd prefer to see only poorly constructed comics espousing right-wing politics I feel it is a misguided aim. Comics, like Government, business and most other things, suffer when one particular group, point of view or small collection of groups gains dominence. A lack of well-constructed and rigourously thought out comics espousing a right-wing viewpoint hurts comics as a whole, both in terms of the diversity of the medium and in terms of more left-wing orientated comics, which have a tendency to run out of ideas and get lazy without a strong opposition to play against.
 
 
_Boboss
09:28 / 06.09.05
i've long been a bit wary of this aspect of pope's work. personally, i never really noticed the obvious political allegory dimensions, i assumed the anty-bureaucrats were just post-giger post-invisibles steals, it's quite an effort to read the words in his books sometimes. but what i did think a lot upon putting down issues of thb and stuff was, 'why are all the characters such self-congratulating cunts?' and this thread has very neatly put that in perspective for me, so thanks.

now i just think it's funny that a self-professed (ain't they all) libertarian should have nicked his political philosophy from exactly the same source that he nicked his funnybook drawing style, which strikes me as a particularly slavish, unlibertarian thing to do. and then you know, his fondness for putting pictures of himself all over his books, the haircut... what a twat.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:02 / 06.09.05
Another problem with the imposition of a particular ideology on a superhero may be that the ideology is pragmatic or doctrinaire in a way that the superhero probably should not be.

To look at the Baruch Wane example... I'm afraid I have not read this one, but it appears to be a story in which our Bruce Wayne analogue dons the mask of the Batman in order to save the library of von Mises, friend of Barbelith. Does he also do anything about the rather large numbers of people being rounded up and put in camps? I'm not saying that a Batman-analogue shouldn't care for the work of Europe's leading exponent of unchained capitalism, but if he is putting ideology above human lives he's not a great Batman...

I like Pope a lot, but, just as I found with Ditko, superhero comic books tend not to make good polemic - it leads to shallow polemic and stodgy comic.
 
 
matsya
23:54 / 06.09.05
nicked his political philosophy from exactly the same source that he nicked his funnybook drawing style

I don't follow - he stole his funnybook style from von Mises?

m.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:58 / 07.09.05
I think the same could be said of Ditko, though, and if I understand correctly your opinion of harmlessness toward Ditko is based around the fact that he wasn't particularly clever or persuasive with the delivery of his message.

I think Ditko used to be very good at delivering his messages, but as he aged and left the mainstream of comics, he showed that he was unable to get those ideas across in words as well as he could get them across in plots.

His early issues of Spider-Man (which Lee scripted) worked very well in his philosophy of "The hero as hated outsider" and "crime as anonymous" while still delivering entertaining stories that Lee was able to script in such a way that they became popular. When his philosophy started overtaking his storytelling, he became less relevant and more strident, almost as if he thought We Just Weren't Smart Enough To Get It.

I would imagine that it's pretty well known that he wanted the Green Goblin to be some person we had never seen before, but Lee didn't agree, saying that the reader needed a payoff, but also that they had done that story before. His next characters (The Question and Hawk and Dove) dove further into Ditko's ideas, and you can see how the ideology was overwhleming the story, even though the character are fondly remembered and have been revived a number of times.

I would posit that Kirby was the same way, keeping his philosophy in check for commercial reasons until the 70's, when it tended to overwhelm his work in such a way that characters spoke in a kind of "word jazz" of Kirby trying to tell the reader his view of life, not telling a story.
 
 
hazylium
04:14 / 07.09.05
Hi! This is a really interesting thread. I'm a new fan of Paul Pope's work- read his book 100% and was quite impressed by it- but I hadn't a clue about his political inclinations. 100% had a vaguely dystopian backdrop but I dismissed it as a typical scifi trope. I've been looking forward to his Batman Year 100 project, though I've been wondering how the political aspects would really fit in with the Batman mythos.

I was just wondering though, is Libertarianism really right-wing? I don't really know much about the movement but I was reading it up on Wikipedia and the article claims most Libertarians consider themselves neither right nor left wing. Basically, they're really extreme capitalists, aren't they? Am I correct on this? They want individual and economic freedom to the greatest possible extent?

Colour me stupid, but this doesn't really seem like a very *sexy* ideology. I mean, I don't think all the cool hipster kids who read Pope's work would really go for this kinda thing. I just hope his Batman book doesn't end up complete shite with heavy-handed political sentiment and the like.
 
 
diz
06:29 / 07.09.05
To look at the Baruch Wane example... I'm afraid I have not read this one, but it appears to be a story in which our Bruce Wayne analogue dons the mask of the Batman in order to save the library of von Mises, friend of Barbelith. Does he also do anything about the rather large numbers of people being rounded up and put in camps?

I haven't read this either, but to judge from the information which has already been posted, it seems to be set more in the mid-30s, not only pre-Holocaust but probably even pre-Kristallnacht. Baruch Wayne is a wealthy Jewish artist openly living a life of luxury, which would seem to me to indicate that it's pretty early in the Nazi era.

However, it's kind of convenient that Pope chooses to highlight Nazi persecution of a prominent libertarian, and not comparable persecution of, oh, say, various socialists or Communists, which would make it harder to maintain his simplistic political dualism.

I was just wondering though, is Libertarianism really right-wing?

The right-left split tends to fall apart with libertarianism. In America, it falls on the hard right with regard to economic and environmental issues, decrying the welfare system and environmental regulations, but it also rejects largely right-wing drives for expanded police powers, hardline anti-drug policies, etc. Most libertarians I know tend to vote for Republicans when it comes down to it.

Colour me stupid, but this doesn't really seem like a very *sexy* ideology. I mean, I don't think all the cool hipster kids who read Pope's work would really go for this kinda thing.

Maybe it's just because I live on the West Coast, but libertarianism is generally considered very sexy in hipster circles, at least out here. That's probably because of the heavy overlap between the hipster crowd and the techie crowd - pretty much all the brilliant young programmers and other people in the high tech industry are libertarians, and tech industry people drive the hipster scene. Socialism and other left-wing philosophies are generally regarded as stodgy, naive, old-fashioned, repressive, and otherwise deeply unhip.

Generally, I don't have a problem with libertarians, though I disagree with them on quite a few critical issues. Tactically, I support them and try to point out the ways in which the Republican party now stands for Christian theocracy and an anti-terrorist police state and not classical liberalism, in hopes of furthering the hopefully impending split between the religious right and the rest of the GOP. I also like to focus on areas of common purpose (drug issues, gay rights, civil liberties, etc). I like more of what they bring to the table than I don't, overall, and I have no problem with a politically charged libertarian Batman mini, as long as the work itself is strong.

I think that some ideologies are a little too toxic to really welcome someone taking such a powerful cultural icon and using it as a political vehicle. If we were talking about a comic where Batman goes out and beats up Muslim terrorists, and realizes that the only defense against encroaching Islamic barbarism is to rally around the traditional Christian family unit, I'd be upset. I don't think this is in that category. If we're worried about a libertarian Batman comic catching people's imaginations, the appropriate response is to make a better comic refuting libertarianism.
 
 
sleazenation
06:40 / 07.09.05
Or, you know, alternatively buy it/read it and produce a criticism of it based on the book itself...?
 
 
hazylium
07:34 / 07.09.05
Thanks Diz! That was helpful. Well, I live in Singapore and the techies in my university dont really have much of an opinion about politics. We get neo-marxists n various flavours of socialists in the Arts faculty but I haven't met any Libertarians around here.

Back to the comic- the artworks cool as usual with Pope but the whole police state thing's very been-there-done-that. Does Paul Pope have anything new to add to the Batman mythos with this story? I do like his idea of highlighting Batman's athleticism and the idea of Batman as theatre performance... And the emphasis on the issue of identity could be an interesting angle.

Not to derail the discussion about the politics that's going on, but does anyone have any actually-cool concepts for a Batman story that begins in 2039? Something that really hasn't been done before!

I got nothing... though I would like to see a story that explains why Bruce Wayne, being as smart as he is, doesn't just use his wealth and power to eliminate the factors that cause crime in the city (wealth disparity, corruption and so on) instead of just beating on bad guys. Heck I'd like to see a story where he does do that instead of just beating on bad guys. Or has it already been done?
 
 
LDones
23:27 / 07.09.05
Following on from Haus' earlier post, what are some examples of comic-as-polemic? Or even comics with overtly specific political messages riding alongside them?

The main one I can think of off the top of my head (and largely because I just went to the book shelf to look at the From Hell annotations) is Alan Moore and Bill Sienkiewicz's Shadowplay story from Brought To Light, though I hardly know if that qualifies as a story so much as an illustrated expose`. It's interesting reading, and Sienkiewicz's inks and paints are really provocative, but is it a successful story if its primary function is polemic? I'm not sure.

Can anyone think of a comics story that succeeded as a political message and a narrative? Does Maus qualify? Joe Sacco's work?

Is this Paul Pope story a unique happening; a major, modern, mainstream comics story that may or may not be overtly along a party line?
 
 
diz
00:15 / 08.09.05
Does Maus qualify?

I would say no, unless you want to argue that "the Holocaust was really, really bad" is a contentious political point.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:35 / 08.09.05
Following on from Haus' earlier post, what are some examples of comic-as-polemic?

There are the Ditko Packages put out by Robert Snyder of Ditko's unpublished stuff, Gerber's Howard the Duck and Destroyer Duck and Lee's Silver Surfer stories from the late 60's are as close as mainstream comics get to polemic that I can think of.

LOTS of 60's and 70's underground books are polemics, especially the work of Spain and the cartooning of Dennis Kitchen, IMHO.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:56 / 08.09.05
I mean, the last time he did a dystopian future New York, ie in 100%, it was identified as being nightmarish and dystopian because 1.guns are illegal, and 2.Che Guevara’s face is on the dollar bills. Those were the signposts he chose, both were pretty much to the fore in the first issue: gun control. Socialism!

I kind of have to take issue with this a little bit... In the first place, I'm really not sure to what extent the world of 100% is meant to seem "nightmarish and dystopian" - it's basically no better or worse than our own. Secondly, 100% is hardly a comic that argues for the legality of guns - the whole point of that storyline is that buying the gun doesn't give that character the security she craves. Thirdly, since the future of 100% isn't that dystopian at all, I'm not convinced that Che Guevara's face on the dollar bills is anything other than a wacky little design joke on Pope's part. In the context of his politics as you've outlined them, that last point becomes more dubious, but still - unless my memory of 100% is failing, I don't recall there being a huge amount about the government of the time being bad and socialist. Arguably 100% is only set in the future at all because a) it probably made it an easier sell to Vertigo, and b) Pope likes drawing flying cars...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:57 / 08.09.05
In fact, thinking about it, all that 'Dollar Bill' stuff in 100% at the time seemed like almost heavy-handed anti-capitalist metaphor to me. Hmmm.
 
 
sleazenation
08:05 / 08.09.05
On the comic as polemic tip, Karl Zinsmeister's Combat Zone (released through Marvel) is pretty much the Fox News version of the first few days of the current Iraq war...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
23:35 / 10.09.05
Maybe it's disturbing because it seems a little too plausible. However, Batman is such a conformist! I think Bruce is, if anything, a Scientologist.

But, "convincing"? Bedhead, you're a genius and I love you, but convincing this is not. It's beautiful but stupid. Paul Pope is a dink.
 
 
grant
00:24 / 11.09.05
Colour me stupid, but this doesn't really seem like a very *sexy* ideology. I mean, I don't think all the cool hipster kids who read Pope's work would really go for this kinda thing.

It's very big in some punk rock circles. Sort of like anarchy, only with candidates who actually get elected in some places (like Alaska & New Hampshire).

Do Chick tracts count as polemics? Or even as comics? I'd say yes, but some might disagree.
 
 
sleazenation
22:22 / 11.09.05
And further on the polemic tip is Sue Coe who crosses many formal boundaries to create polemic art...
 
 
matsya
22:28 / 11.09.05
oooh... those are confrontationally ugly, too...
 
 
sleazenation
22:49 / 11.09.05
Yes, subtle is not something that Sue Coe does, but neither does she pretend to... as she freely admits in an interview in the Comics Documentary film Comics Confidential... she also talks of various ways in which comics are ideally suited to polemic, pointing out that they are, or at least were before the advent of the internet, one of the few mass media where a single person can control both the creation, printing and distribution of their work...
 
  

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