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Shadow of the Colossus

 
  

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wicker woman
14:48 / 02.09.05
Colossus preview link

Kind of surprised, partially at myself, even, that ICO hasn't been brought up in here yet. That was easily the most underappreciated, undersold game of all time. Fortunately, in their infinite, god-like wisdom, the game designers have seen fit to bless those of us outside of Japan with the sequel anyway!

And wow, does it look all kinds of gorgeous. Cinematic, real-time battles against enemies that take up one screen, the screen above that, and a good portion of the next screen up sometimes. Aaaand, um, other stuff, I'm sure. Not much in the way of detail has been released yet, unfortunately. After ICO, though, I've got quite a bit of faith.
 
 
hanabius yamamura
14:32 / 03.09.05
re After ICO, though, I've got quite a bit of faith

... couldn't possibly agree with you more, Nico, as Ico was just so sublimely amazing on so many levels ...

... Shadow of the Colossus will < he says crossing everything > be, hopefully, just as awe-inspiring and beautiful ...

h
 
 
hanabius yamamura
21:49 / 03.09.05
... thoughts that have occured to me having watched the link again ... firstly, the initial music is SSSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOO Ico aka that particular plucking of the stringed instrument ... secondly, late on a Saturday after some vino tinto, watching that trailer again, it's gonna be fab!

... I'm stupidly / blindly skipping into the land of excitement and potential disappointment ...

h
 
 
rotational
19:40 / 05.09.05
This is my first post on the board and thought that such a beautiful game seemed an ideal place to start. Since seeing this (requires Realplayer) today (think it's newI'm looking forward to it massively... I feared that it would depart from the Ico mood a lot and this confirms that it hasn't. That magnificent lonliness... Lovely.
 
 
Math is for suckers!
02:34 / 06.09.05
I for one hated Ico, but I just played the E3 demo of ...Colossus that came with the newest Official Playstation Magazine, and I was blown away. The graphics are gorgeous, with a strong emphasis on real dynamic lighting and motion blurring. However, the most impressive thing, and keep in mind this is just my impression from the demo, is the emotion that the game manages to evoke. I was seriously awestruck when the colossus appeared and I almost felt bad for killing it when I finally did kill it. When I first heard about this game I had absolutely no interst in it, but now that I've played I'm counting the days until it comes out.
 
 
netbanshee
04:50 / 06.09.05
That is a new trailer and a beautiful one at that. Now we're starting to get a feel for the set up and the discovery and interaction with these giants.

What's the current listed ship date?

So, Math, what's not to like coming from Ico? The only thing I didn't like about the game was that my screen bounced when playing PS1 and old PS2 games... Ico being one of them. A newer tv/connection fixed this. So basically, I guess what I'm saying is, I can't think of anything that's not great about it and I'm curious to get the fill on your opinion.

Very few games in my opinion have addressed certain portions of the game as well as Ico has when put together as a whole. The interaction with the girl (secondary character) is well handled and you really start to care about her as you play. The puzzles aren't all that complicated, but are a useful dynamic. The sense of scale, space, color and solitude amongst it all is breath-taking at times. The audio (another OST I have) is quite good.
 
 
hanabius yamamura
16:34 / 06.09.05
... greetings, rotational ... seriously cool first post what a trailer ...

... my initial thoughts are:

... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, ico-flavoured music

... evocative, beautiful, haunting atmosphere

... but, I wonder who the girl is? is she the girl from the first one? is this a prequel? is it even the same gameworld?

... counting the days till this comes out - time to revisit the awesome Ico methinks

h
 
 
ZombieCulture
18:12 / 06.09.05
There's a wonderful playable demo available with the recent Official PlayStation monthly, the issue with, surprise, Shadow of the Colossus on the cover.
 
 
hanabius yamamura
18:58 / 06.09.05
... seriously?

... it's gettin' bought first thing tomorro' ... cheers for the heads up, dude

h
 
 
Math is for suckers!
02:46 / 07.09.05
Netbanshee: I hated Ico for the gameplay mostly. I liked the graphics and the music, and I thought the puzzles were great, but I was constantly frustrated by the combat. I would get halfway through a puzzle and then have to run back over to the girl, by which point she was surrounded by the shadow things and 9 times out of 10 she would get dragged away. I realize that not being good at a game is probably a pretty poor excuse for not liking it, but thats my reason. If it had been only puzzles, or even if it had a better combat system I might have liked it, but as it was I didn't.
 
 
lekvar
05:00 / 07.09.05
For me, the combat system, or lack thereof, was one of the more interesting features of Ico. You didn't have to worry about your character dying except as an extension of the Princess being captured. The shadows couldn't kill your character, but failure to protect the Princess could. I imagine that if you beefed up the combat system you'd end up with a pretty generic product. Look at the reactions to Prince of Persia: Sands of Time (universally loved, not about combat) and POP: Warrior Within (universally ignored, all combat).

Having said that, it sounds like combat, after a fasion, is the central theme of Shadow of the Colossus.

Shadow of the Colossus just went on my "gimme gimme" list and I've only seen a couple screenshots. If it's half the game Ico was, I'll love it.

The Beautiful Woman and I played Ico together- she worked the puzzled and I fought the shadows. The end, right before the fight with the queen, completely choked me up when I realized that the only way to go forward was to disperse the shadows, especially after it became so obvious what they were.





**** SPOILER ****





And the end, after the credits are done and Ico wakes up on the beach...





**** END OF SPOILER ****
 
 
wicker woman
04:51 / 16.09.05
In quick regard to your spoiler, lekvar; I understand that bit at the end was added for the American (and UK?) release... something about obsessive American need for closure. Might've been just a rumor, tho. Regardless, I liked it anyway.
 
 
Shrug
18:40 / 25.09.05
It looks to be another another high quality product from the creators of ICO. Yay. I've never actually played ICO as I never had a system which it was available on. However I did have a colleague rave to me about it for a least eight hours one day which gives me some idea of it's brilliance. The sheer horror of his enthusiasm has indelibly soiled my memory forever with the equation ICO=Best thing ever.
Anyway there's already an ICO thread so I'll stop now.

I've been wandering through the offical Shadow of the Colossus site and am finding it to be really charming. The first thing that comes to my mind is the original Tomb Raider what with solitary rambling through beautiful enviroments for hours on end (this exploration and tranquility being the most fantabulous thing about Lara's adventure). And Lo and Behold the site had this to say: Overcome a variety of terrain challenges placing great emphasis on pure exploration. Can I get a WOOT!
Other exciting stuff:
-The Bosses look amazing the sheer fact that they're fully climbable is enough to get me excited.
-The on site and I'm presuming in-game music is very much to my liking, less of the MTV-ised nu-punk like in the PoP sequel. Thank you.
-You get to ride a freaking horse and shoot a freaking bow and arrow!!

The Official Shadow of Colossus Site
 
 
netbanshee
03:15 / 02.11.05
I picked this game up the day of launch but have been too busy to show it proper attention. Same goes with this post. I should be able to add my initial experiences of the game tomorrow as I've played to about the 4th Colossus so far. I will say though that the first time you get the hang of it (annoying camera system, control feel) and start climbing the bastards, you're in for a treat. A totally different sort of gaming experience. Anyone else give it a go?
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
21:21 / 20.12.05
Just picked this up, and have defeated the 6th Colossus - the one with a beard.

Brilliant game thus far, I'm consistently baffled by the integration of cinematic techniques, puzzles, and very interesting play elements. The cameras and controls are a bit of a pain, but the game is so beautiful and innovative it doesn't dim the beauty here.
 
 
netbanshee
22:17 / 20.12.05
The control mechanics are a bit of a pain and are never quite as transparent as one would like. You do get better at them though... right around the period that you're at actually.

I still have a few more colossi to fight but have been inundated with too many other matters that make enjoying casual gameplay impossible. I've been chipping at them one at a time though and the game fortunately lets you slip back into the mindset required quite quickly.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
23:58 / 20.12.05
To be honest, the flying one, while a pain in the ass, was beautiful.

I like the moral ambiguity in this game, as well.
 
 
netbanshee
00:21 / 21.12.05
Yeah... that one was quite the experience. There's one coming up soon that isn't land-based either. Fun.

After you've defeated a Colossus have you ever tried to get away from the sinewy black essence that comes from them and seeks you out? I don't think you can get away but it might not stop you from trying.

I respond to the openness in the story as well: controlling the sway of the camera during the cinemas, having representative forms in the world that aren't specified (shadow figures standing above you grow in number when you're returning to consciousness as does the amount of doves by the girl), the dialogue being in some "other" tongue. Good stuff.

Anyone else play it? I'm kind of surprised that we're the only ones considering the development team's prior title and the lip service paid to it.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
00:47 / 21.12.05
Yeah, I was surprised at the lack of talk here about this game as well.

Yes, I have tried to escape the tentacles of blackness, and once got pretty far away, but to no avail.

It is, generally, a gorgeous game and I'm loving it, personally.
 
 
netbanshee
21:55 / 04.02.06
Gearing up to have another go at this title. Been busy and couldn't spend much time with it unfortunately. I'm about half-way through, I gather.

Anyone else pick it up or complete it yet?
 
 
iamus
22:27 / 04.02.06
Is it out in the UK yet?

Has it been out for ages and I've just been a bit of a dunce?
 
 
The Strobe
22:57 / 04.02.06
No, but it comes out this month in the UK. It's been out in the States for a while, though.
 
 
invisible_al
23:58 / 04.02.06
Found this fan movie(spoilers?) from a link in the PS3 thread. Damm that looks so very very fine.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
02:48 / 05.02.06
Looking at the website, I have to say that perhaps we may have found a horse so lovely as to threaten Goldfrapp's disco one.
 
 
doglikesparky
21:03 / 10.02.06
17th of this month in the UK. I've just (finally) played through ICO in preparation and it was everything everybody said above.
Now I'm just wasting time for a week...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:48 / 13.02.06
Apparently, Ico is being rereleased to Platinum just before the Shadow... launch, so if you want to catch up, you'll now no longer have to pay eBay Robbery prices.
 
 
iamus
00:28 / 16.02.06
I snatched up Ico and Shadow today (My retailer is being a bit naughty and selling it before the official release).

I've never had the chance to play more than a solitary five minutes of Ico before, so I was dead set on playing it through before even taking the plastic off Shadow. After just under six hours checked into the Hotel Yorda I've now finished it. It's not a hard game, but it is a sublime and beautiful one.

I don't suppose there's much I can say about it that hasn't already been said, but it's a charming, captivating game that casts a spell on you right from the out and (minor Yorda AI hiccups aside) doesn't let you go.

As far as favourite bits go, well there's the art direction, obviously, but Yorda herself steals it. She makes a wonderful exception to the dodgy history of AI companions. She's the heart and soul of the whole game. The way she jerks and pivots as Ico pulls her around this way and that is beautiful, and though shes always slowing you down and causing you to detour, she never irritates, because she always looks as if she's trying as hard as she can. I actually found myself talking to her at bits, and after I'd spent ten minutes trying to figure out one puzzle, only to see her point out the area I was overlooking she charmed the pants right off me.

That ending is lovely.


Anyway, I think I might try my hand at Colossus now. This is going to be a long night.
 
 
netbanshee
01:07 / 16.02.06
Glad to see that you European folk can get your hands on this now. It's been a long time coming.

Ico and SotC are definitely 2 different experiences but you'll respond to some of the same stimuli that flows from both efforts. I'm not through SotC at the moment, mostly due to scheduling reasons, but I have found that it's a game I want to pace a bit more slowly anyway. Maybe it's the solidarity of the experience. Most likely it's part of the formulation... waking up to fight yet another colossus in another region of your territory. Nonetheless, I go at this one differently than Ico, having finished the former in about 3 sittings (hard not to).

I'm looking forward to spoiler-rich talk though. I'm on my 10th one now... looking forward to closing in on the finish.
 
 
iamus
18:29 / 19.02.06
I've been playing this quite a bit and some minor issues aside, I'm loving it.

I'll comment more when I've finished it (10 Collosi in at this point) but a few things.
Firstly I do think that Ico is a far more cohesive experience, there are a few things here, like the controls, that break the spell a bit. I actually got really frustrated to begin with because it took me ages to figure out how to climb the first easy wee bit to the first Colossus. Also, Agro seemed like an unfortunate but fitting name for the horse, I felt like I was wrestling him more than riding for quite a while.

That stuff dissolves immediately when you get to a colossus. Though control and camera are still finicky, just watching the thing stomp around trying to hammer you is like watching something straight out of myth. I don't think I've seen anything that feels as ancient and grand and right in any game I've played. Clambering all over one, clutching its fur as it tosses and bucks is quite something.

It is all about the colossi though, so far the inbetweening exploration bits feel curiously empty as, for all the beauty, there's little interaction with the environment. For a hero who can scale a moving eighty-story monstrosity and jab a sword into its wildly shaking head, it seems a bit odd when Wanda can't even climb a tree.

Still there are many absolutely magic moments in the game. It's a markedly different experience to Ico, but I'm not sure which one comes out on top yet. I suspect they'll break even, though Colossus undoubtedly has one or two unforseen, absolutely breathtaking moments in store.
 
 
Tom DS
14:54 / 08.03.06
I found the Colosusses (and by extension the game in general) incredibly frustrating, appart from their graphical loveliness they embodied some of the wort aspects of boss design. A friend of mine made the comparison with point and click adventures of yore where the puzzles often weren't solluable by any means other than trial and error.

At least in a point and click adventure you can move your mouse over the screen to find the tiny collection of pixels that must be clicked to progress, with SotC you often have to be standing in the right place equipped with the correct weapon and the monster has to be in a certain attack mode for you to even have a chance of seeing the weak point ...


--may contain spoilers--


the sand worm is particulalrly bad in this respect.

The low point of the game for me was being repeatedly knocked down by the small bull like colossus after I'd driven him off the cliff. Once you're knocked down once you have pretty much no chance of standing up without being immedieately floored again, the whole process is made all the more infuriating because standing up takes so bloody long and the attack in question does so little damage, seriously I must have gone through this for about five minutes before my guy finally and mercifully passed out and i could attempt the pretty much luck based fall-onto-the-prone-animals-back move again.



-- OK i think that's it for spoilers --


Basically I didn't derive any satisfaction or sense of accomplishment from the game, not because of the much vaunted moral ambiguity, but because victory or defeat often seemed entirely arbitrary.

For me Ico's strength was it's marriage of the technology with game and artistic design. The game was perfectly suitable for the PS2 in addition to the astounding visual design the frame rate was solid, the collision detection was good and the puzzles, whilst not earth shateringly interesting, seemed logical and well structured. SotC does the lovely but the technology and game design lag behind.

I'd have been happy to wait another year for this if it meant they could have fixed the problems and released on a more powerfull platform, as it is the moments of brilliance just seem wasted in a fairly mediocre whole.
 
 
iamus
15:06 / 09.10.06
Well after finally going back to this game and completing it, I'm not sure my above post is actually, really so much how I feel about this game. I'm actually leaning toward Tom DS' post above.

First of all, I somehow just dropped the game two collossi from the end. Just couldn't be arsed picking it up and finishing it. Now that I have, I'm wondering why I did that, and seeing the game-breaking faults.

The Collossi. I still do think they are grand and great and chill-inducing, but like almost all of the game, it's the art design more than anything else that does that. The stomp and crash and lumber, and it all looks good and weighty and mythical. The sense of scale when you clamber over them helps to sell it, but the longer you spend on one (and due to some game design misteps, that can often be quite a time) the more the illusion falls apart.

These are not things of even rudimentary intelligence. They make things hard for you, but they'll do the same things all the time, every time. They'll never learn to adapt, never learn that doing certain things help you rather than hinder you.

I don't know if it's particularly fair to use that as criticism, since that's been par for the course with boss characters since the dawn of time, but it really is pretty glaring in this game. Considering how hard it can be in some cases to hold on to them and do the stabby thing, especially the closer you get to their weak points, repetition is really wearing. When you're going through the same motions for the sixth time, coaxing and climbing in exactly the same ways, the Collossi cease to be the big, dynamic God-things they appear to be when they first rumble into view. They're just math's equations you have to do over and over again, showing your working step by step every time.

This same art-over-game design goes for the world around you too, which, for all the lush sweep and grandeur it has, is really very barren. You're a hero defined by your amazing climbing and clambering abilities. Why then are practically the only things you can climb in the whole vast landscape, the ruined save-point towers (that as far as I can tell, all use exactly the same model)?

San Andreas works because your environment is a fun obstacle course before it's a thing of beauty. Your vehicles can be coaxed over the next hill if you work it just right, those walls can be clambered and jumped. Not so with Agro and Wanda. Agro goes where he thinks he's able and nowhere else. Wanda, with all his L33T parkour skillz, can't even mount a boulder without oddly sliding down the side. The world isn't anything more than ground to be covered before you can get back to playing the game.

The look doesn't matter, because there's no reason you'd actually want to be there, never mind look at it.

It's not all bad, mind. There are lots of bits I like about it. But it's very flawed and not particularly well thought-out, it would seem. Quite a few people here bought this, yeah? Nobody else have much to say about it after they got into it a bit?
 
 
mkt
08:18 / 10.10.06
I have to disagree with you, iamus. Not about the saxinraxin controls, which certainly ain't perfect, but about the clunky feeling you get from the Colossi and the feeling of being limited in your exploration of and interaction with the landscape. They're what make the game for me.

Firstly, the Colossi. Yes, they are boss fights. Old-fashioned boss fights where you learn the pattern, lather, rinse, repeat. Although it leads to somewhat repetitious gameplay, I love this. How many creatures like this have you killed in other games over the years, and felt proud of it? By giving them realistic appearances, some hint of emotion and no ill-will towards you, SotC challenges everything you've ever felt about killing bosses. They're big, stupid creatures that have no idea why you're hurting them, and they don't learn. Now, don't you feel good about yourself for winning? Aren't you the big hero?

Secondly, the limitations of the landscape. I like the loneliness of this game. I like that there aren't any fun Easter eggs or minigames or secret areas to discover. The game is all about the grim sense of purpose, not about doing ace stunts. You're not there to lark about. You're there to do a job. A terrible job that makes you feel terrible.

Basically, SotC is a subversion of the "kill the monster, save the princess" genre, of action games in general, and the genuinely disturbing atmosphere would be horribly undermined by any attempt to introduce a conventional sense of fun into the proceedings. This game is all about questioning your understanding of games and what makes them fun or satisfying to play.
 
 
iamus
19:38 / 10.10.06
I didn't ever really see the moral ambiguity everybody talks about though. I could go for it if they were totally benign creatures that could be roused into anger (something like the robots from Miyazaki's Laputa), but the Collossi attack on sight, whether you've made an attempt to hurt them or not. To me, that turns them into the same sort of monster I've been trained over and over again to battle in videogames. The only thing that really struck me is that you continue to go at them knowing full well it's really bad for your health, but that's more of a personal thing than anything to do with them.

I see what's trying to be got at, I don't think it was particularly well conveyed though.


As for the landscape, I think it's all too often just a case of riding up and meeting head on. I think it works better when there's static platforming (like the run up to the final boss) to counterpoint the rotating, swinging Collosus-clambering. There is area to explore outwith the paths to the Collossi, and stuff to find (fruit trees and silver-tailed lizards), it's generally not a lot of fun going about trying to find it though.
 
 
netbanshee
23:17 / 10.10.06
I eventually completed the game some time ago and I'm somewhere between having enjoyed it and being pretty frustrated with it. Put it down twice and it took a bit of coaxing to finally be done with it. I think the ending was satisfying enough to reconcile a bit. SoC does a good job tying in with Ico and delves a bit more into the tragic elements at play in that world that are.

If the gameplay was tighter, ala Ico, I feel most criticism wouldn't be as strong. Problem is you can't ignore something that's at the root of your experience. The camera was bitch at times where I wished it wasn't and control was sloppy. You get the hang of it but it fails on you in the midst of a bigger challenge. It seemed that it wasn't quite as bad when you climbed up the Colossi and started getting to work but getting to where you need to be can be pretty tough, especially as one nears the end.
 
 
mkt
09:33 / 11.10.06
iamus - I agree that this game is flawed, and that it wasn't what it could have been. It's clear that if we can come away from it with such different experiences, it can't have been entirely successful it what it was attempting to convey. Quite apart from your points (and banshee's) concerning the controls - with which I agree totally - I'm very interested to find that the things I found strongest about the game were the same things as you perceive to be weak points. I hope it doesn't seem like I'm flogging a dead horse here, but I'm keen to engage on these points and to hear what other people think about them.

There is area to explore... and stuff to find (fruit trees and silver-tailed lizards), it's generally not a lot of fun going about trying to find it though.

I like that, though. I think that the lack of secret areas (I should have clarified in my earlier post - there are plenty of non-plot areas but none that are particularly difficult or rewarding to find, hence I don't really see them as secret areas in, say, the Mario sense) and the rather mundane "bonus" items/creatures make it feel like you're procrastinating rather than exploring. It feels like revisiting a website in the hope that it has updated when you're meant to be working - unsatisfying and not quite enough of a distraction.

I didn't ever really see the moral ambiguity

Your suggestion that "totally benign creatures" would have made a better choice of enemy doesn't suggest moral ambiguity so much as a different kind of moral clarity - you'd be able to get into role as a ruthless bad guy if you knew that you were killing innocent beasties. Ambiguity is about murkiness, uncertainty, a lack of binaries. It's not clear, when you play, whether you are doing something good or bad - that's a plus in my book.

To paraphrase my last post, I don't think this game is meant to be fun - I think it's meant to be an exploration of ideas of fun in gaming. I suppose a reasonable analogy would be a film that is uncomfortable to watch and makes you question your motivation for watching it. I'm not sure how exactly a better balance could have been found, especially when making a commercial game that needs to shift a fair few units, between exploring these ideas and making something that people will still recognise, engage with and persevere with. For example, would iamus's suggestion of a more varied landscape simply make the game more satisfying to play, or would it also undermine the theme of having to do a rather miserable and unenjoyable duty?
 
  

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