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Giving away your power

  
  

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40%
10:36 / 29.08.05
Just been reading the well-rounded sorcerer thread, and thinking about the extent to which we are capable of directing our own lives. A lot of my life I have felt like I am under the control of other people in some way or other, when it’s clear that others only have power over me (whether in reality or in my mind) if I give it to them.

I have often blamed other people for the effects they’ve had on my life when in reality I’ve been giving them power over me, which was my choice. This ranges from giving parents the power to judge whether you’re a good person, giving power to your peers to decide whether you’re cool, or in a work context, giving other people power by deferring to their judgement rather than trusting your own.

I know that my own behaviour has been obsessional at times, in the way I have decided that another person is basically right, and deferred to their judgement, or sought their approval, rather than relying on myself. This has obviously put strain on my relationships with people in various contexts, as I’m sure it’s a burden most people don’t really want.

It strikes me that romantic relationships are a context in which people often tend to give their power away, looking to that other person’s approval in order to feel okay about themselves. For me, I also find a strange instinct to place myself unreasonably under the control of management in a work context, to treat their judgements about my work performance as having some absolute meaning or authority. I also tend to quite readily submit to other people’s impatience, if they want to me to do something right away, rather than doing things in my own sweet time.

I’m wanting to examine the possible reasons why we might give our power away. On any rational level, it’s a wholly negative thing, and yet it can seem easier than taking full responsibility for our own beings. Maybe the negative effects of abdicating one’s own being are well earned.

I’m looking for other people’s personal experiences of realising their own power, and of struggling with the temptation to give it to someone else rather than taking responsibility for what they do with it. What experiences in your life have made you most aware of the power of choice that you possess, and how have you sought to hold onto that and use it? What experiences have you had of others trying to forcibly strip your power from you, and how have you responded?
 
 
agent darkbootie
22:24 / 30.08.05
Interesting. I often think of "giving your power away" in different terms, depending on circumstances.

At work, you by definition give your power away to your boss. Certain decisions simply aren't your responsibility. You can push your opinion only so far before you have to let it go.

Other times it's a question of how much effort it will take to "keep" your power. Do you consciously engage the fight to assert your opinion in a situation where the prevailing winds are blowing against it?

Everyone wants pizza, you want Chinese. Is it worth it to disrupt the harmony of the group? On the other side of that coin, spend some time in any organization that operates through "Conensus" decision-making if you want to see a group hamstrung by one person's opinion.

I think power-dodging usually comes down to responsibility and accountability. It's easier to claim extenuating circumstances than to own the possibilities of being wrong or screwing up. Fear of failure... or whatever consequence may hold.

If you never finish your novel because you were just "too tired from you day job," you've got the out. If you finish it and it sucks, people will laugh at you, think less of you, etc. Much easier to claim you never had time.
 
 
Haloquin
15:50 / 08.06.07
*BUMP*

Gypsy Lantern mentioned the correlation between Practicing Magic and Personal Responsibility in this thread.

What do people think?

Does the practice of magic come with added responsibility or does it exempt one from the normal rules?
Does taking responsibility enhance one's ability to practice magic?
What if one takes responsibility for 'smashing reality tunnels' instead of 'playing nice'? Is this just a bad way of using the term responsibility?
What does 'responsibility' mean to you in relation to magic?
 
 
Haloquin
15:58 / 08.06.07
To get this started;

I'm of the firm opinion that the practice of magic gives you a set of tools that can effect yourself and your world, and using any tools comes with responsibility. I think this because personal responsibility rates highly in my personal view of the world, but beyond the fact that I think its important in any field, practicing personal responsibility in itself adds to your ability to practice magic IMO.

Basically, my thinking is; if you want to cause change in the world but don't take responsibility for your actions how can you claim the ability to change things? If you avoid responsibility for your actions, at what point will your subconscious, afaik a major tool in magical workings, trust you to be able to do anything and thus co-operate in causing change?

Avoiding responsibility does seem to me to be a way of giving away your personal power, and your personal power is what you use in magic, right?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
16:33 / 08.06.07
Does the practice of magic come with added responsibility or does it exempt one from the normal rules?

First of all, what do you think of as being the normal rules and the normal level of responsibility? Whatever they are, I think that magic is a process whereby those rules become well known and utilized to get results. For instance, one of the rules I abide by is the rule of cause and effect; if the causes arn't in place for an effect to happen then it won't, however if one is able to understand what causes are needed and control them, one is able to utilize them. This isn't an exemption from the rules, but rather playing by the rules and winning because of them.

Does taking responsibility enhance one's ability to practice magic?

I think that responsibility is based on awareness and freedom; the ultimate expression of awareness and freedom in my eyes is god, and god seems to have a pretty admirable ability with magic. As far as this relates to me, my ability to generate and apply energy is pretty much proportionate to the responsibility I've undertaken; the greater the responsibility, the greater the amounts of energy needed. This doesn't automatically mean that my ability is enhanced, however it does mean that my abilities are more fully utilized and strained; this is how the human body develops muscle and memory, so I don't see why this wouldn't apply to magic skills as well.

What if one takes responsibility for 'smashing reality tunnels' instead of 'playing nice'?

Well for starters, you'd want to be pretty good at it because few people want to be challenged and also because it's pretty fucking difficult to change someone's world view, especially if they don't want it changed. I take responsibility for preventing others from smashing my reality tunnel, and responsibility when others or myself smash it, however it's rare that I actively set out to do this to others; sometimes it happens because of what I've done, hence I take responsibility in regards to this, but for the most part reality tunnels are pretty secure against smashing and of little interest beyond occasional visits.

Beyond that, another rule I play by is that like energies attract like energies - smashing reality tunnels, or attempting to at least, means that sooner or later ones own is going to be threatened.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
16:36 / 08.06.07
Avoiding responsibility does seem to me to be a way of giving away your personal power, and your personal power is what you use in magic, right?

Well sometimes I appeal to higher powers, though that's a thread in itself in regards to whether or not I actually am those higher powers but don't realise it, and the degree to which my personal power influences those higher powers.
 
 
EmberLeo
17:52 / 08.06.07
Even if you are asking the higher powers, though - you took the initiative to ask, and to put forth the effort to ask in a way you have reason to believe will be heard and understood, yes?

I've had a handfull of young friends go through Man or Woman Making (a coming of age ritual). My advice to them tends to be that being an Adult doesn't mean it's your responsibility to provide everything you need for yourself. Being an Adult means that it's your responsibility to arrange for what you need. If that means negotiating with the gods, so be it. I promise that's not less work. It's unlikely They'll let you off the hook of holding up your end of the bargain.

--Ember--
 
 
Saturn's nod
17:56 / 08.06.07
Okay, what about

1) sufferer-blaming in New Age circles e.g., "Your son's got cancer because you don't love him enough", "You're disabled because you don't love yourself enough". Don't those put responsibility on those who are already ground down by misfortune, in a way that's unhelpful? Am I not seeing a way in which it would be helpful to tell those people they are responsible for their conditions?

2) feminism and other anti-oppressive analyses: don't these suggest that responsibility is shared between oppressor and oppressed, and that both have to change in order for justice to be established? Isn't the analysis that says those who experience homophobia/racism/sexism are responsible for sorting it out actually an unhelpful way of burdening those who are suffering - "sexism, that's women's problem to fix"?

Do these come into the frame of 'taking responsibility' and 'not giving one's power away'?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
18:02 / 08.06.07
Even if you are asking the higher powers, though - you took the initiative to ask, and to put forth the effort to ask in a way you have reason to believe will be heard and understood, yes?


Yes, which is why I question the degree to which my personal power influence higher powers; maybe they're already aware of what I want and willing to grant it, maybe they donate nine units of energy for every one of mine, maybe only specific types of energy get through to them, maybe they have their own desires which occasionally match my own, maybe their desires manifest as my desires, maybe there are no higher powers, maybe maybe maybe...

Like I said, it's a thread in itself :P
 
 
Ticker
18:22 / 08.06.07
Do these come into the frame of 'taking responsibility' and 'not giving one's power away'?

these are really important questions for me right now as I was discussing sexism with someone with a chaos magick perspective. We were discussing using a social construct which assumes there is a victim in order to confront perceived oppression vs. not assuming a less empowered victim stance. It made my brane hurt.

For me I frame my taking responsibilty when confronted with oppression by not letting it slide. Sometimes it really is easier to not say anything but I've made the decision to say it and engage even if it is uncomfortable and/or possibly risky. So my responsibility lies in thinking about these things and electing to choose a position which reflects my ideals and follow through.

Don't those put responsibility on those who are already ground down by misfortune, in a way that's unhelpful? Am I not seeing a way in which it would be helpful to tell those people they are responsible for their conditions?

This is a bit sticky but the way I personally engage with crisis and tragedy is not a blame game of this is happening because I fucked up (or you if I'm external) but rather to look at in the ways I can take action. Action might be patient advocacy for myself, or learning to ask for help or in extreme cases learning to deal with illness and death.

The funny thing about personal responsibility is it cannot be artificially inspired. You can't shame or guilt someone into doing it and any approach that tries to do so is automatically going to fail. It is at a basic level the realization that we each have a choice. We have a choice in every situation no matter how desperate or limited it may seem we are electing to do or not do something.

When tragedy strikes our choice isn't about three steps back how we got here at this shitastic moment but what are we going to do now. This moment.

When confronted with an external force coming at us we need to be aware that we still decide how to respond. Sometimes that response is to fall down which is often the safest thing to do and others we decide to sidestep. What empowers us is the realization that tradition and society do not full dictate our options unless we allow them to. I take responsibility by knowing many options are possibile and I am selecting one. Even if it chafes, requires further struggle, or a momentary surrender, it is my choice.
 
 
Ticker
18:24 / 08.06.07
I should probably add that my view of personal responsibilty includes the willingness to die rather than abide or participate in atrocity. YMMV.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
18:28 / 08.06.07
Sometimes it really is easier to not say anything but I've made the decision to say it and engage even if it is uncomfortable and/or possibly risky.

I think responsibility in regards to situations that one thinks is wrong involves, where possible, preventing them; if this is not possible than one should speak out against them, and if this isn't possible than one should at least feel bad that these situations are occuring.
 
 
Quantum
20:11 / 08.06.07
I'm not quite sure what we're meaning by responsibility. Taking responsibility for your actions? Ascribing responsibility for events? Psychological Locus of control?
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
21:54 / 08.06.07
I'm not sure here....Most magicians worlds are far too insular to effect a major influence. It is demonstrably obvious that a Crowley or a Morrison have impacted massively, if subtly, on popular culture but the average space-head...?

So many occult types are simply dealing with their own shite and i count myself amongst them.
 
 
Haloquin
22:56 / 08.06.07
Having said that, Ivor, while true that the majority of magic-users do deal with very personal things on a relatively small scale, even the smallest scale change in one's self effects those around you through your actions. If I work on confidence or wealth, I then interact with family, friends, the places I shop in, the things I eat, in a slightly different way. Or, alternatively, I have the opportunity to. And those people effect the people around them, and the little parts of the world that they are in contact with, and things ripple out.

So, responsibility for what you can recognise as in your power also involves a recognition of what happens as a result of that. Although whether you are/should be responsible for that is beyond me.

In terms of what kind of responsibility we are talking about, I assume a form of 'recognition of the effects of our actions and intentions as related to ourselves, and a willingness to accept the consequences or work to change them'. Which would include recognising what effects are a result of our actions previously, and what effects will be a result of our actions at this time. Or at least trying to recognise!
 
 
This Sunday
23:26 / 08.06.07
I respond to 'won't' from people a lot kinder than I do 'can't.' I reflexively evaluate and am critical of someone stating they can't do something, and probably too harsh when I think they in fact can, but if they simply leave it as 'won't'? I might get mad or disappointed or whatever, but I don't find it was frustrating. If someone really cannot do something, fine, but that it's a conscious decision to say one will not do a thing - I reflexively treat that decision with some silly respect. I could probably train myself out of that reflex reaction, but I probably won't.

I agree with Mako, that if you're going to big a big connector-breaker, reality tunnel destroyer, or position yourself as a doctor of any kind, in that sense, it behooves to make sure you're gonna pull it off at least most of the time. You better be really good at it. I'm not a doctor - not even a decent scrub nurse sometimes - and I wouldn't position myself to appear as such. I'm not gearing myself out to fix things. Neither doctor, nor carpenter, nor priest in a confession booth (even if I've had remarkably similar experiences in the past four months, wrapping a freshly broken foot, repairing furniture, and listening to tragedy like a monkey interpolating between depressed customer and quiet organ grinder).

I'll take the awareness of responsibility over any amount of potency any day of the week. And I loathe responsibility, so that's an awkward sentence for me to even type. But, really, power's just power. The attention with power isn't really necessarily going beyond or outside that power's range, but responsibility, at least to me, implies a cognizance of that just outside the responsibility's range. There isn't an exchange possible for one or the other, and the only reason a denial of power or capacity in someone bothers me, especially when they deny it of themself, is that it's unnecessarily cruel.

There may be chances to 'give away power' but I think most of the time, it's just directing it differently, as in the food-ordering simile way up top in one of the 2005 posts. That's not relinquishing anything, it's just - like sharing some pizza's going to hurt or something? The same boot that can put a hole in the drywall can step around the little frogs and snails that come out after a rain.
 
 
Quantum
11:27 / 09.06.07
So, responsibility for what you can recognise as in your power also involves a recognition of what happens as a result of that.

I'm getting a better idea of what we're talking about I think. For me, it's a balancing act between impotence and arrogance. On the one hand, nobody is controlling my life, the things I do are my responsibility and if I make a mess, I should clean it up. On the other, taking responsibility for things that *aren't* your doing is a common way to exaggerate magic powerz, expand the ego and assume you are more important than you are.
Example- I start a campfire, some sparks catch the wind and it burns down your house, my responsibility. I should have been more careful.
Example- George Bush chokes to death on a peanut, I say 'That was me and my tinfoil hat, now I must cleanse my karma I am teh murdering wizzard'. Not my responsibility, even though I would like it to be, it's another way of deluding myself that I am more important and powerful than I actually am. Like paranoia turned inside out.
I notice this sometimes when someone gets ill a friend will say 'Oh no, I thought bad things about them the other day! It's my fault!' or similar.
No. It isn't. Your idle musings do not curse people, because you are not the centre of the universe.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
11:44 / 09.06.07
Example - magician casts a spell to attract money; his car is later stolen and burnt, and his insurance company coughs up a big fat cheque.
 
 
Haloquin
11:44 / 09.06.07
There may be chances to 'give away power' but I think most of the time, it's just directing it differently, as in the food-ordering simile way up top in one of the 2005 posts. That's not relinquishing anything, it's just - like sharing some pizza's going to hurt or something? - Decadent Nightfalling

I agree that sharing pizza with friends is not giving away personal power, but the attitude when sharing may involve a giving away of power. I'll try and explain.

I think giving away one's power is almost synonomous with denying responsibility for things you have power in. When in a position where you want Chinese and everyone else wants Pizza, finding a compromise with friends isn't giving away power, but sulking because you 'had no choice' would be. If you sulk about it and blame your friends' preferences for your lack of Chinese then you are not taking responsibility for your part in the group as a whole, for your actions in terms of compromise. Hell, you had a choice, you could have gotten Chinese yourself... so you chose. In making a choice you are exersizing your power, in recognising your choice you are taking responsibility. But, if you blame others you are effectively saying you had no power to do otherwise; hence not taking responsibility/giving away power.
 
 
brother george
12:06 / 09.06.07
Example - magician casts a spell to attract money; his car is later stolen and burnt, and his insurance company coughs up a big fat cheque.

Sorry but this is purely arm chair conjecture. For this to happen, you need to already not have a healthy relationship with money or balanced sources of income. If your life is so unbalanced that the only way for money to come magically (that is using the least path of resistance) is from insurance company cheques after accidents or robberies, then you have bigger problems than merely not having enough money.

Freaky results like this are a bit rare because they are manifested from a not so smooth path of resistance and most of them dissipate before hitting the ground. If one has managed somehow to tap into an extraordinary amount of unbalanced force, the effect does not dissipate, but pressure gets built and when released, the results look like a train-wreck.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:19 / 09.06.07
brother george-- hear hear!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:34 / 09.06.07
Most magicians worlds are far too insular to effect a major influence ... So many occult types are simply dealing with their own shite and i count myself amongst them. --IVoR

Having said that, Ivor, while true that the majority of magic-users do deal with very personal things on a relatively small scale, even the smallest scale change in one's self effects those around you through your actions. --Haloquin

I think dealing with your own shite can be an expression of personal responsibility, yeah. If you're allowing yourself to become a less effective person in your day-to-day life, you are not acting responsibly if you do not act to pull yourself out of that. If you know that magic would help you become a more effective person, the responsible thing to do is to use magic.

It is true that sometimes your own shit is all you can deal with for a while, and that's fine. That's completely okay. What's not okay is if you are perfectly capable of reaching out and helping other people and you fail to do this because you have your head up your arse. I have every sympathy for the genuinely damaged person who has to prioritise fixing the loose wiring, but fuck all for the individual who has nothing wrong with hir and simply chooses to live and practice magic in a selfish, insular fasion, doing nothing to decrease the suffering of the people around hir. Or worse, who elects to increase that suffering through deliberate acts of abuse.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
12:39 / 09.06.07
I agree, though my point was that magical responsibility is a hard thing to pin point, especially if one doesn't fully consider what can happen; the connection between a campfire and a house burning down is clear, however the connection between a spell and a car burning is not.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:44 / 09.06.07
I think trying to pin single events onto acts of magic is always going to be a tricky business. I already got into this a little in the Practice thread, but essentially I believe the only way you can really tell if your practice is working is to assess it over time. If you perform a one-off money working and money happens, then maybe it was your spell and maybe not. If you get into some long-term dedicated magical work on a Wealth theme, maybe to improve your relationship with wealth and money generally, then you'd expect a few ups and downs but basically you'd be looking for an overall upturn in your finances.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
13:24 / 09.06.07
I once told someone doing slight of hand tricks that if they flipped a coin, I could tell them if it was going to be heads or tails before it landed, however I could only do it 50% of the time and I wasn't sure if my call was what influenced the coins resting state, or if the coins resting state was what influenced my call.

For a smart man it took him a suprising amount of time to work out the trick, and it's something I keep in mind whenever I'm tempted to make up my mind on the reality of magic.
 
 
Haloquin
13:47 / 09.06.07
I think dealing with your own shite can be an expression of personal responsibility, yeah. If you're allowing yourself to become a less effective person in your day-to-day life, you are not acting responsibly if you do not act to pull yourself out of that. If you know that magic would help you become a more effective person, the responsible thing to do is to use magic.- TTS

Ooh yes, I hope I didn't come across as saying otherwise. I was thinking in terms of even seemingly personal acts having a wider reach than just inside one's head/house.

Mako
I'll have to try to remember that riddle, it made me smile.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:50 / 09.06.07
Ah, no, I was basically agreeing with you. Sorry, should have been clearer.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
14:11 / 09.06.07
Let me know if you find an answer to it.
 
 
brother george
14:48 / 09.06.07
brother george-- hear hear!

?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:52 / 09.06.07
An expression of agreement.
 
 
brother george
15:09 / 09.06.07
Ah yes. Thanks TTS, daily english expressions are not my forte.

From Christopher Lyam's Godforms of High Magic article, about giving power away :


Are you floundering in one of these eddies? You will know such places by their use of life-sucking images: Photos of celebrities, icons, coats of arms, mandala-like symbols, and still more and more images of celebrities. Aliester Crowley is a good example of a cultural icon that aspiring magicians worship. Many an occultist delays spiritual development for a while, caught in Crowley's wicked charm, trying to be like him instead of exploring the road to his own Higher Self. Why should a teenager bother cultivating her own sexual magnetism when she can have a pin up of a sex symbol on our bedroom door instead? Or why should a sports enthusiast live a life of adventure when we can get the television to do it for him? Beware of what distracts you from your own life.


Continued here
 
 
Haloquin
15:19 / 09.06.07
Let me know if you find an answer to it. - Mako

[+] [-] My answer is...
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
15:31 / 09.06.07
That's the most plausible answer, but not the only answer.
 
 
Quantum
17:51 / 09.06.07
Gullibility is the answer.
 
 
This Sunday
18:11 / 09.06.07
Haloquin, I'd think you'd be giving up 'responsibility' in the pizza/Chinese example, but not really power. You're deliberately doing something with your power, you're choosing to not utilize it so you can feel weak(er) or put on, but not using something is not the same as giving it away. Is it? I mean, is it for any of you?

'Gullibility is the Answer' as a tenet is, unfortunately, probably the thing giving an inflated sense of power and/or responsibility to those who have one. It's what choosing your facts to support the ends is all about. And, to my thinking, 'gullibility is the answer' is the climax of ideologies or practices informing that passion or faith will get you through everything and make you always right and just.
 
  

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