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Freud, truth, and the passage of time

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:41 / 18.08.05
In response to Nina's request in the thread on Marx, herewith a place for the discussion of Freud...

Is he still relevant? Is he outdated?

Was he right in the first place?

Starter for ten: it's always bothered me that Freud described his case histories as 'Novellen' - a specific literary term which refers to a story which is bookended by the narrator with explanation and moralisation, and in which the outcome is known from the start. That strikes me as a poor way to go about empirical research - and it has been suggested that he invented some of his histories.

My first reaction to the question is that he was immensely important; he codified the concept of unconscious drives and so on which had been floating around in the cultural sphere, and that he is - inevitably - specific to his time in some ways, and his analyses reflect this.
 
 
Quantum
10:17 / 20.08.05
He did sort of base his theory on human nature and behaviour on a few rich Viennese women with 'hysteria' living in a time of sexual oppression (to provocatively malign him) and decide everyone could be classified by their favourite orifices, that everyone was subconsciously obsessed with sex, your analyst knows better than you what's the matter, and that snorting *enormous* doses of cocaine was a beezer plan for mental health.

He argued that humans are born "polymorphously perverse," meaning that any number of objects could be a source of pleasure. He further argued that as humans developed they fixated on different, and specific, objects—first oral (exemplified by an infant's pleasure in nursing), then anal (exemplified by a toddler's pleasure in controlling his or her bowels), then phallic.
from here where they also note
'Some have attacked Freud's claim that infants are sexual beings (and, implicitly, Freud's expanded notion of sexuality)'
and 'Freud hoped to prove that his model, based primarily on observations of middle-class Viennese, was universally valid.'
and most tellingly
..most psychiatrists today reject the large majority of Freud's work as unsupported by evidence and best used for inspiration or historical study, if at all.

He opened a lot of doors, created a language we still use and is the grandfather of psychiatry, but Jung improved on his work which was enormously culturally biased and phallocentric, egomaniacal and patriarchal.

Anyone want to post a more positive perspective?
 
 
Quantum
10:35 / 20.08.05
...and he was an oral-compulsive;

Freud was a smoker of Churchill-style cigars for most of his life; even after having his jaw removed due to malignancy, he continued to smoke until his death in 1939. It is said that he would smoke an entire box of cigars daily (from wikipedia)
 
 
Tom Coates
10:56 / 28.08.05
Freud's a fascinating character lurking between literature, science and philosophy which normally means that neither scientists, critics or philosophers are quite comfortable with him amongst their number. In terms of 'science', clearly things have moved on enormously since Freud's time and large chunks of his work has been swept away or reconfigured. But then we'd expect that - the same thing happened to Newton without him being considered a charlatan or a fraud. His work's coming increasingly into the orbit of the literature people, which I have mixed feelings about because I think it gives ammunition to people who don't want to take his ideas seriously, but I can't deny his works are stunningly written, compelling and incredibly influential in literary circles.

When it comes right down to it, there are an enormous number of Freuds. Even during his life there were several - he wrote - after all - for around forty years, and produced an enormous body of work that changed and shifted. The Oedipus complex, for example, reconfigured itself a number of times. But there's also another 'axis of Freuds' (a phrase which I love even as I write it), which is to do with which elements of his work have become popularised and absorbed into the discourse and which have been picked out and ridiculed.

Freud was the inventor of the concept of the 'unconscious' and of 'unconscious motives' - he was the person who said for the first time in a systematised way that people did not always do things for conscious motives. This was a huge realisation and has had an enormous impact on the world after him. He was also one of the first to talk about repression and blocking out of troubled memories. He presented theories of symbolism, representation and wrote fascinating treatises on things like the nature and function of humour, sexuality, history and culture.

Fundamentally we are all pretty much children of Freud - there isn't a horror film that isn't full of him, there's barely a biography or a psychological model that doesn't owe him an enormous debt, if only by his providing a vocabulary within which he can work. Freud has been so absorded into the culture that many of his revelations now seem obvious and trivial. We don't even consider that these were things that someone had to think up (I hesitate to say 'work out'). His impact has been enormous.

The Freud that people know about is pretty much a bastardised, monstrous Freud comprised of all the bits that make people nervous or seem wrong joined together like Frankenstein's monster. Some of these bits are wrong - or are theoretical models that seem much less plausible. But even these bits are mostly mischaracterised. When Freud talks of sexuality by the end of his career he's talking about pleasure without purpose - not genital sexuality or lust. He's talking about the sensual pleasure derived from touching your own skin or eating that's in excess of meeting our immediate needs. The Oedipus complex is not about two year olds dreaming of fucking their mothers, it's about individuation - not feeling yourself to be separate from your mother until another party intervenes and separates you from the larger whole. That this might get recast as a genital sexuality in the mind of the unstable (who have not gone through the Oedipal resolution appropriately) is almost irrelevant. Nor is the Oedipus complex as simple as it is proposed by many people. The equivalent is not Electra - Freud's eventual conceptualisation of the Oedipus complex for women is the same - that a girl feels part of her mother, like the boy, until another party intervenes. The two children then orient themselves differently, one identifying with the mother, one with the father. The mechanics of this situation (penis vs. penis envy etc) are dubious again, but not normally in the way they're represented in the popular imagination. They do not mean what most people think they mean, and even if massively wrong tend not to be as easy to categorise as anti-feminist, sexist, patriarchal, dirty or sex-obsessed as the pop versions.

In a nutshell: knowing Freud opens up the assumptions behind a vast number of different enterprises / sciences and theories around the world at the moment, as well as the assumptions that many people oeprate with in their everyday life. He was a brilliant thinker, who has been overtaken in some areas by other areas of science and philosophy, but who must be respected and celebrated for the steps he made and the impact his work has had.
 
 
Leidan
18:21 / 29.08.05
It seems to me that the greatest sense of Freud's ideas being outmoded or outdated comes when the reader is immersed in depth psychology, mostly Jungian stuff. Also a reaction against Freud is understandable if the reader is interested in spiritual issues; again, Jung, in many ways Freud's successor and perhaps the completor of his ideas, penetrates Temple-esque stuff with understanding and insight, as opposed to Freud who I think viewed the occult, magical side of things as not having any value in themselves at all.

Thus modern thought is open to a huge array of things, in the realm of the subconscious, that Freud remained narrow-minded on; Freud was prone to reduce certain things to the libido, or to the presence of a hidden problem. Dreams, instead of being the mysterious carriers of messages and wisdom, heavy in archetypal symbolism, that they are to Jung and many people today, were thought of by Freud as representing a simple subconscious personal 'issue' of the patient; a repressed problem fighting to get loose.

Freud's thought compared with (some) modern conceptions of things generally follows this pattern; while he was probably the first in the modern world to scientifically name the subconscious, he basically just scraped the surface and looked at it in an arguably reductive way. The thinkers that have come after him have begun to unlock this realm and try to understand it in its own terms, lending great renewed validity and strength to concepts such as religion, mysticism, magic and dreams.

I think it's these areas that people are immersed in when they're moved to speak of Freud's outdatedness, and perhaps rightly so. In other areas I don't doubt Freud still has alot of cool stuff to say; what Tom says about the Oedipus complex relating to the sense of one-ness / alienation and not simply sex is fascinating for instance, and for me brings the theory's relevance right up to the present day, or closer to it.

Purely out of interest by the way Tom, why do you just name 'literature, science and philosophy' as the three areas in which Freud's thought has borne and still bears relevance? Where is psychology, or do you count that within science/philosophy? It appears to be a discipline of its own at this time...
 
 
macrophage
18:27 / 29.08.05
I would hasten to add that your man Sigmeund Freud was perhaps an eccentric who based most of his crux of theories upon the Nuclear Family, Sex Obsessions, appropiations of Greek Archetypes for Metaphor led family beliefs, etc.

He was also somone who took too much Cocaine, and he may have exhibited the classic signs of a Cocaine Psychosis.

Still on hindsight what would we as a race of humans do without them, the Psycholgists that is? We wouldn't have Media Criticism that pervades the Middle Class Quality Papers for a start. But also more importantly they have also been trying to heal alot of people who are deemed menatlly ill by the System.

There also seems a twist of racism and misogyny that has hosted itself onto psychology, you'd only have to look at the statistics or have spent a stay in a mental hospital or have known someone who has. MIND and people like Mad Pride have alot of information on that.

Christ, they used to use Vibrators on Women to cure so called outdated concepts such as Female Hysteria for heck's sake. Psychology seems to host an underbelly of a quirkiness of kookiness or fringe pop science all on its own.

Freud has became in fact a 100% Pop Entity to work with and a Religion to work with to boot.

Though Psychology has moved onto other greener pastures now.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
10:03 / 31.08.05
I thinks the point is being missed here...

Shouldn't you be depersonalizing this and addressing the reasons for the success of the variants of psychoanalysis and analytical psychology (i.e from Jung, Klien, Fordham to Lacan and Kristeva) - rather than merely repeating the error of thinking that an individual named 'Freud' with his specific theoretical model(s) of the human subject is of specific importance or not.

Perhaps the underlying problem which needs addressing is why anyone would prefer what passes for 'scientific psychology' to the deeply humane (if anti-humanist) approaches that begin with Freud and others in the late 19th C...

And please (pre-emptively) no banal misunderstandings which suggest that current neurological models necessarily contradict psychoanalytical or analytical psychological work and models...

steve
 
 
Quantum
12:39 / 01.09.05
why anyone would prefer what passes for 'scientific psychology' to the deeply humane (if anti-humanist) approaches that begin with Freud and others in the late 19th C... sdv

Care to elaborate? The rise of Psychology-as-a-science is really a seperate issue to the importance of Freud-as-an-individual, maybe worth a seperate thread, but I'm intrigued you should want to reverse the last century of Psychological progress. Why? Particularly regarding Freud (note the topic abstract).

(Mod Hat- please don't sign each and every post, 'kaythanxbye)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:37 / 01.09.05
Quantum before you get sarcastic about someone signing their posts you might want to be more attentive to the word prefer.

What bothers me about this thread is the extent to which it takes Freud's work out of the context of the couch. This entire thread is talking about psychoanalysis from the perspective of theory... is anyone here actually a practising psychoanalyst? If not then you're talking theories without any recognition of their environment. Freud in the context of cognitive psychology might be outdated but the rigour of his analysis has not only put down a foundation for our society and the recognition of mental health throughout the western world, his work is used every single day of the week by Freudian analysts. Jung's work is nicer than Freud's but is it better in terms of psychoanalytic theory? I think we need two analysts- a jungian and a freudian to answer that question or at least one who follows both models in part.

enormously culturally biased and phallocentric, egomaniacal and patriarchal.

He's the creator of the school of thought and he was male, considering how internal psychoanalysis is you couldn't expect much more from the person who invented it. Through his observation he had to be analysing himself as well and surely that's part of the interest in the work, every analyst is slightly egomaniacal. Isn't there ground here to suggest that society has become less phallocentric in reaction to his study?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
12:46 / 02.09.05
Nina/Nina

Nina - given the influence of psychoanalysis on all a wide range of social practices I think it's mistaken to suggest that it cannot be understood except as a theraputic discipline. (Admittedly though the success of the latter does impact the former....) My reason for this is that without psychoanalysis the majority of 20th C social and cultural theory simply ceases to exist... consequently I suggest that it's theraputic value is an entirely different issue from discussing the importance of Freud. I suggest then that psychoanalysis is best understood as 'split' between theory and practice.

Q... By scientific psychology - i was referencing the psychologies that are in constant and increasing use as technologies of control. Whether this is psychological metrics judging human suitability for employment, the principles of the market economy, human profiling or judging whether a child requires Ritolin... These are over-medicalised, statistical methods and have little or nothing to do with human therapy.

I would tend not to place the nuerosciences within this understanding as, for what it is worth, it is noticible that the nuerosciences and psychotherapy/analysis are capable of having an interesting dialogue.

(unsigned since moderation-anality exists here...)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:45 / 02.09.05
Yes but to detach it entirely and look at it purely theoretically is to ignore its primary importance. Culture is a complex thing, I don't doubt that Freud has influenced it immeasurably but to take his psychoanalytic theory entirely out of the context of its purpose is to misread and misunderstand it.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
14:18 / 02.09.05
I think you are wrong, because the consequences of psychoanalysis existing are much greater than the importance of 'psychoanalysis as therapy'. The reason Freud and psychoanalysis is important is not because of the correctness or otherwise of the differing models of the human subject. But because of the significant impact of psychoanalysis on human culture and philosophy.

This is not hard to demonstrate and I'm sure you could supply your own examples - for what it is worth my own favorite examples are the end of the phantasy of the unified human subject, freudo-marxism (latest variants Zizek), the transformation of ethics (Levinas), post-structuralism... and so on.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:52 / 02.09.05
By scientific psychology - i was referencing the psychologies that are in constant and increasing use as technologies of control....These are over-medicalised, statistical methods and have little or nothing to do with human therapy. - sdv

I'm not clear about this. Are you including psychiatrists as practitioners of "scientific pschology"? Because while some of them would seem to fit into the "over-medicalised, statistical" box, they would also seem to be engaged in "human therapy", no?

Mod hat: I really don't want to derail this discussion, which I think is quite interesting, but I don't think that asking sdv not to use a sig, as a moderator, is really on, Quantum. People might find it irritating, but it isn't policy.
 
 
Quantum
14:57 / 02.09.05
These are over-medicalised, statistical methods and have little or nothing to do with human therapy. sdv

I would certainly agree with that. There are beneficial therapeutic methods that derive from quantitative methodology though, and I am wary of idolising Freudian therapy due to it's *historical* importance rather than it's intrinsic value. IMHO the talking cure is over-applied where sometimes it is inapproprate, for example;

'in psychoanalysis schizophrenia and depression are not brain disorders, but narcissistic disorders. Autism and other brain disorders are not brain problems but mothering problems. These illnesses do not require pharmacological or behavioral treatment. They require only "talk" therapy. Similar positions are taken for anorexia nervosa and Tourette's syndrome. (Hines 1990: 136)' from skepdic.com

The cultural impact of his work seems to be increasing nowadays, with his influence on literary theory and such bringing his work back into the limelight, but by utilising his ideas in a kind of metaphorical way rather than as psychological theory, as he formulated it.

(+ apologies for overmodding, if I thought anal retentiveness was a stable personality trait I'd confess to it :] )
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:58 / 03.09.05
the consequences of psychoanalysis existing are much greater than the importance of 'psychoanalysis as therapy'

I think you misunderstand me, I don't believe that psychoanalysis as therapy is more important, I believe that to ignore the original purpose of the theory as therapy is to misunderstand the subsequent effect on culture. In other words to remove it absolutely and only talk about the effect isn't going to leave you with a clear view of the theory because you won't actually know what Freud was describing.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:59 / 03.09.05
.. it would be too easy to assume a meaning that wasn't there.
 
  
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