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Older Games and Game Snobs

 
  

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Jake, Colossus of Clout
22:40 / 14.08.05
I was hanging out with a buddy of mine who is a huge video game fan (like me) and we got into it a little bit on what I percieved to be his snobbishness towards older games.

I was never a big PC gamer, and now that I have access to a sweet laptop, I've been making up for lost time and playing Baldur's Gate obsessively, an absolutely wonderful game that I missed the first time around. My buddy looked at me like I had two heads and said something like "do you know how old that game is?" Implying that I was some sort of gaming misfit because I was playing an outdated game. He went on for a bit about how far superior the newer AD&D games are, and how I should be playing them instead.

This guy preorders every quality new game and every new system so he can get them as soon as they come out. His PC has more gaming hardware than you could shake a stick at. He spends a ridiculous amount of money on video games.

I'm at the other end of the spectrum. I'm about to order Baldur's Gate 2 for $15.99 off of Amazon, and not only do I not have a PSP, I could give a shit whether I ever get one. I'm just as likely to play a SNES ROM on my PC as turn on the Gamecube.

What's the deal with game snobs? These people are all over the place. Are they on Barbelith? Do you need to have that shiny new game, or are you just as happy popping Super Mario All-Stars into your beat-up old Super Nintendo? Speak, Barbelith.
 
 
iamus
23:22 / 14.08.05
Here's where I stand on this.

I'll get back with a proper reply soon.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:54 / 14.08.05
That's not snobbery, Jake - that's ignorance. The sort of person who self-identifies as a 'hardcore' gamer - a snob, in other words - and tries and claim that new = better is relatively rare.

The real snobbery here comes from those who say some of the stuff in the piece Mel linked to and mean it. Rubber keys? You were lucky if those things didn't keep getting stuck down and became unusable. Games today will never beat the thrill of getting through Jetpac? Bullshit, frankly. You stuck with those games because your parents bought them for you and you had to make the one last for months on end. Go download an emulator, play them now. See how long it is before you become worn down by the repetition and shallowness.

The snobs are those who make wild claims that there's not a single game around now that can ever be as good as the best that older titles have to offer. Again, bullshit. It's the same "I was there at the beginning" mentality that people use when talking about music to try and make out that band X went to shit as soon as they became popular. If anybody was to say that no film released after 1963 (or some other, entirely arbitrary date) was as good as anything released before then, they'd be laughed off the face of the planet. And rightly so.

There's also some excellent rose-tinting going on whenever somebody says that there's no longer the imagination or innovation that there once was. Even if that's true - and I'd debate it - it misses the fairly fundamental point that games twenty-odd years ago innovated and created new genres because there were new genres to be created. It's inevitable that that'll slow down over time, in any industry.

Retro gaming is my pet hate. Not, it should be noted, the activity of playing old games because they're fun, but the use of the term as an attempt to segregate our history from our present. It's always been apparent that this is an industry that's embarrassed by its past, and pretending that playing something released twenty years ago is somehow completely different from playing something released twenty minutes ago doesn't help. There should be an equal appreciation of games from all eras - I honestly believe that it's only once the industry proves itself grown up enough to understand that point that the medium will be given the same sort of mass respect as film, music, blah.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:18 / 15.08.05
The older I get, the more of a retro gamer I become. Not because of any kind of snobbery, but because I have less time to get into a game, and the level of difficulty in a lot fo games ramps up so fast that they become exercises in frustration. If I weren't playing for a bit of relaxation and entertainment, I might see it differently, but when I put Half-Life 2 on my computer, it lasted about an hour before I decided that the game, although beautiful and interesting, just demanded too much from me.

The other thing with older games that I don't see in newer games is that you can play an older game in a more casual way with less of a time committment. I can start up Pac-Man or the like and start playing right away, while Simpsons Hit and Run (which I otherwise love) makes me wade through a couple of cut scenes, an in-game tutorial and another cut scene before I can start actually playing.

So, for me, it's more of a committment issue with newer games.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
01:36 / 15.08.05
Mel- That was great. Thank you.

Randy- I agree with you 100%. You expressed what I was trying to say more eloquently than I. Looking at previews of the new Zelda makes me salivate, but Link to the Past is still my favorite Zelda game and I go back and play it again every couple of years. I'm not adverse to playing the new AD&D games, but I'm having a blast playing Baldur's Gate. I'll get to them eventually, but I want to check out Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale first.

And, when I'm not playing BG, I'm absolutely cracking out on the Owner's Mode in MVP Baseball 2005 (best baseball game ever made). I just love video games as a media and a hobby, and I think it's silly to say something's crap because it's five, ten or fifteen years old. Just as it's silly to say something's crap because it's brand new and the only good games came out in the old days of Intellivision or something. Centipede kicks ass. So does Resident Evil 4. just in a different way.
 
 
Mouse
01:43 / 15.08.05
(not to mention, re: new AD&D games, that as far as I'm aware they've all been bad. Only the Baldur's Gate series, including Icewind Dale if you must, and Planescape: Torment* are worth the effort)

I'm sort of on the fence with this issue, mostly down to graphics. I love seeing the fancy graphics in new games, in part because I mess with 3D graphics as a hobby, and in part because I like to be able to say "woo, look what my computer can do." Games that are a couple of years old can often look so bad to me (and my somewhat snobbish standards) that I do not like to play them. Examples would be the highly-popular and acclaimed Call Of Duty, or the GTA games.

At the same time however, I still enjoy much older games and still have time for things like Doom, Quake, the old LucasArts adventure games, etc. And anything whose graphics were splendid when the game first came out but now looks dated (an odd thing to like - I'm not sure where this comes from) like Giants: Citizen Kabuto.

If I had to vote either way I'd go with brand new games, because I'm shallow enough to care about looks. However, the main reason people play retro games as far as I can see is because the gameplay is so good that dated visuals/sound don't matter so much. New games, for all the graphics whizzbang are far too often rather disappointing (Half Life 2 and Doom 3 especially so, given their hype and histories). I think the most recent game I've truly enjoyed (and expect to still enjoy playing five years from now) is Far Cry.

* Planescape: Torment out is a game you must play if you're enjoying Baldur's Gate. It's by far the best of that group of games, and has a wonderful story.
 
 
iamus
10:52 / 15.08.05
The real snobbery here comes from those who say some of the stuff in the piece Mel linked to and mean it.

Of course I don't mean it. I just had to link it. While I fully agree everything you say about equal appreciation across the board, there's some stuff there I disagree with.

You're right to say it is bullshit that games today will never beat the thrill of Jetpac, because they are two seperate things. Games like Jetpac, at the time, were fucking amazing. They only look repetitive now because the medium has grown since then, we've been accustomed getting something else from our games and we've become impatient (Which is perfectly valid, there's no way I'd waste as many hours of my life staring at a loading screen now as I did then).

But saying that the only reason we stuck with them is because we didn't get anything else is just wrong. Almost every week I'd buy a new Speccy budget game from Safeway for £2.99, but there were a few titles that I'd go back to again and again. I never really got anywhere new in Jet Set Willy, but I'd load it up every lunchtime at home from school and play through the same rooms just because it was fun. Because I wanted to see those rooms that I'd been to before but were hard to get to or cleverly hidden. Because those games I loved, extremely repetitive they may have been, were very, very, playable.

Games like Jetpac were the thrill of winning a war on attrition. Nowadays we wouldn't have the patience to keep at it, but that's not to say those games are shite because of it. A lot of the time they had to be repetitive because of the tiny amount of memory they had to run in. Nowadays we don't have that problem, which is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, the freedom to let the developer's imagination run has brought some of the most sublime, expansive and playable games ever and allows for vastly different styles of game to be produced. On the other hand, the restriction of those times really forced a developer to make the most of what they had and to really get to know the hardware in a way that developers today don't need to (though obviously neither of those statements are true in all cases).

I'm a screenshot salivater too though. It's one of my favourite pastimes, other than playing the new games. I'm always anxious to see what developers are cooking up next in their Infinite Wonder Machines. But for me and modern games, it's not about bigger and better, it's about different and new.

I suppose I might be more predisposed to defending older games over newer games, but I would never hesitate to say if a game, old or new, was shite. Likewise, I would never dismiss any game just because it was fancy looking. A lot of it is remembering the feelings those generations of games gave me as a wee guy. Some of it is simply money. I don't have the funds to buy a tooled-up PC, and I often have to wait a good couple of months before I can get my hands on a new console. As a result newer games often are older games by the time I get round to them.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:02 / 15.08.05
it's not about bigger and better, it's about different and new

Totally. In "ye olden days", I guess a lot more games were new and original because, as Randy says, much less had already been done then. I love games that try to do something different, and am prepared to cut them a bit more slack even when the experiment doesn't work.

For example, I still have a soft spot for (the memory of) Legend's The Great Space Race on the Spectrum, even though to actually play it was a dull, frustrating and unrewarding experience. I didn't even play it that much back then, but I liked the fact they were trying something different.

Of course, these days it's much harder for people to come up with new concepts. My current fave, Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath, almost fits this criterion, although rather than doing anything new, it combines lots of things that have already been done in an interesting way.
 
 
Mouse
12:58 / 15.08.05
That's a good point - there is very little originality in games lately it seems. It also seems that the majority of big new titles are sequels, and essentially repeat the gameplay of the originals with either better graphics or a few little tweaks. Original new games are difficult to come by. In fact, looking on my games shelf right now the only thing I can see that tried to do anything different are Katamari Damacy and Darwinia. The other games there are all perfectly enjoyable, but finding something genuinely different is a delight.

(though looking over the fact that Damacy is essentially Battlezone with the tanks replaced by craziness and Darwinia is essentially Cannon Fodder in Tronland helps)
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
16:52 / 15.08.05
The game industry has become such a big business that, like Hollywood, no one is willing to take chances when it's easier to do something tailored to the lowest common denominator. Why try something new when it might fall on it's face and lose money? Especially when you can rip off GTA or make another FPS that will sell a kajillion copies if you market it right?

It seems to be the natural progression of things, at least for major games studios. Just look at all the nothing Rare (formerly one of my favorite studios) has done since Microsoft bought them for some obscene sum.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:11 / 15.08.05
Rare are an oddity, though, and I don't think you can take what's happened to them and use it as an industry-wide example. The lack of any real impetus to get things done has had an impact on them - where they were previously driven by a friendly competitiveness to at least match anything that Miyamoto could create, the fact that they no longer have any link to Nintendo's development teams has left them without any direction or motivation.

Kameo's been in development forever and it's always been obvious that Rare didn't really know what they were going to do with it. The remake of Conker is terrible, the single player game exactly the same as before, the online a real mess and demonstrative of a fundamental lack of understanding about how online multiplayer games work. They have nobody to push them in the right direction when they go off-course, and it shows. The fact that they're so hesitant to finish their stuff suggests that they're aware of this problem themselves, but don't know what to do about it.

Lots of good stuff in this thread. Will return to it shortly.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
21:55 / 15.08.05
You're right about Rare, I think. It was probably a mistake for them to leave Nintendo, as their games were always so ace. They were the only studio producing games that rivalled Nintendo's big franchises. I think Jet Force Gemini was THE most underrated game on the 64. What a great, great game.

Another recent development in gaming is disturbing- sports licenses being sold exclusively to one company. For example, Major League Baseball sold exclusive rights to its' product to the lackluster Take-Two Interactive, leaving EA's brilliant and incredibly deep and geeky MVP Baseball, and the fun, arcadey ESPN baseball out in the cold. Both of those games blow Take-Two's boring and uninspired 2K Baseball franchise right out of the water.

I realize that most Barbeloids could care less about baseball franchise games, but I think this sets an alarming precedent by totally eliminating inter-studio competition. Awarding an already weak franchise sole rights to the product will certainly not give them any impetus to do any better, will it? And it leaves the baseball-geek geniuses at EA out in the cold. Plus, as a consumer, I will have to settle for an inferior product next year, or content myself with playing an outdated copy of MVP (I'll almost certainly do the latter, unless Take-Two hijacks EA's entire baseball staff).

Do you think this is as demoralizing as I do? I realize that selling out to the highest bidder is a natural part of the marketplace (and the MLB ownership and Player's Association have certainly shown themselves to be nothing if not greedy and amoral), but I think competition is good; for the product, certainly, and I think also for the business in the long run. Professional wrestling, to use a game-friendly example, has been in a tailspin since WWE bought WCW. Why? because the product has floundered due to lack of competition. There is a definite "Fuck 'em, they'll watch whatever we put out, because they've got no alternative now" kind of attitude, and I don't see how the same thing won't occur in gaming. It may actually be worse, because in this case the inferior product clearly won out, even in sales terms. MVP Baseball was the best selling game in the genre.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
22:01 / 15.08.05
I'd just like to state that when I call Take-Two "lackluster," I'm only referring to their sports division. They are responsible for the fantastic Elder Scrolls series, and, of course, Rockstar Games. We all know what sweet series Rockstar makes.

But their sports games are shit.
 
 
Quantum
12:43 / 16.08.05
Retro for me baby. Last night I played Mechwarrior, Tiberian Sun, Doom ('95) and Moria Angband. I tried to load UFO (Enemy Unknown!) but it was just too old, my PC was too clever for it.
Playability is what counts for me. Pacman, Space invaders, Tetris... don't get me started.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:36 / 16.08.05
Mel> Games like Jetpac, at the time, were fucking amazing. They only look repetitive now because the medium has grown since then, we've been accustomed getting something else from our games and we've become impatient.

I wouldn't agree with that entirely. It's mainly true, but it doesn't account for games like Rainbow Islands. There's a game that looks like a quirky little platformer on the surface and can be played as such, but hides loads of depth for the player to discover should ze try and master it. It's only repetitive if you rush through it. Jetpac, and a lot of the home computer games of the period, didn't offer that sort of two-tiered experience, but it doesn't mean that they didn't exist, nor that current games offer substantially 'more' than the best of the past.

But saying that the only reason we stuck with them is because we didn't get anything else is just wrong

You're right, of course. That should have been "the only reason we stuck with most of them."
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:00 / 16.08.05
Oh, hang on. If you mean "we" as in games-players in general, then yeah, that's probably a fairly accurate assessment of the situation. It's maybe not that we've become used to being offered more, though, just that we're used to having it all laid out to us on a plate right from the beginning. The aforementioned Rainbow Islands is deceptive in a way that would prevent a lot of current players from ever considering it more than 'just' a basic platformer. It's remembered as having that depth now because we used to explore games fully.

New games that try to pull the same trick don't sell, because people no longer have the patience to stick with a game to discover what it has to offer - instead, everything has to be bullet-pointed on the back of the box or else stuck in an ugly, rushed tutorial section. Psyvariar Revision (I know I keep banging on about this, sorry) was slated in reviews as being something that "can be completed in half an hour" and "has levels which are far too short". Rubbish - you can get to the credits in half an hour, sure, but you won't see half of the levels until you've practiced at it for weeks, months, learned its system. Yeah, compared to other vertical shooters the levels are short, but it's not other vertical shooters - it is its own game, and the levels are short for a reason - because the player has to define and memorise hir own path through them in order to come anywhere near to truly beating them.

Outrun 2 gets slated for being shallow, when a little determination actually shows it to be the best arcade racer since Ridge Racer and Daytona. There's no depth to the handling, people moan after five minutes. If there's no depth to the handling, why aren't they capable of getting times to match the best in the world? If tehre's no depth, surely anybody should be able to match those once they've learned the road layouts?

This annoys - the tendency to complain about how current games can't compete with old arcade hits, then berate those new games which try and bring that style back.
 
 
Lord Morgue
14:14 / 16.08.05
Yeah, there used to be games that would unfold in odd ways as you played them- Lost Eden, Hacker, Neuromancer- you never quite knew what they were going to throw at you next. These days the genres are more fixed.
Myself, I like new games with retro-gameplay, for instance Zombie Smashers X 2, on the surface its punks and skinheads beating up zombies and ninjas for small change, but really its a love song to River City Ransom. Gone all... Ska.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:48 / 16.08.05
I'm wondering about this, and specifically wondering whether one of the issues is about what constitutes a permissible level of complexity or non-complexity. For example, while searching for a Flash-based UFO game for Quants - here, by the way - I became genuinely excited at the idea of being able to play the Julian Gollop Chaos on my PC (or, since I think I just killed it, my Mac), despite it being incrediibly primitive. Why? Partly scale - it's a game you can understand completely in a fairly short space of time - and partly balance. Chaos remains one of the best-balanced games I can think of - imaginative and intelligent use of the elements provided to you can outweigh strategic weakness. This may, of course, just be nostalgia. Interestingly, I think you could create something just like it now (well, of course you could), but what you couldn't do is ask for money for it.

On the other hand, I still sincerely maintain that UFO: Enemy Unknown is perhaps the best game ever written. Again, scale and balance. Admittedly, I haven't played it since the 90s, but I actually dusted off my old Win98 box specifically to play Apocalypse, which is in many ways inferior...
 
 
iamus
15:05 / 16.08.05
Good god, I've not played Chaos in years. Surely somebody smart has done a web-based multiplayer of that? I'd be up for trying my hand at a 20% success Red Dragon spell against you all.

Randy: That's pretty much what i was getting at.

I think Monkeyball is a good example to cite here too. On the surface it looks very primitive. As the first rush of Gamecube games it looked like one of those simple-concept, first-out-the-door numbers that did nothing to take advantage of the Cube's potential. Partly that's true, it doesn't really do much which couldn't have been accomplished on the N64 or PSX. However, it remains to this day one of the deepest titles on that machine.

It gets its playability from the same source as games like Jetpac. The concept is summed up in one line, there's no variation in control throughout the game and you are confronted with everything you need right off the bat. The gameplay comes from experimenting with the system, finding its limits through trial and error and pushing it as far as it will go. The level layouts get trickier, the time limit gets shorter but it's fundamentally the same from beginning to end.

Because it does what it does so well, it can easily hold it's head high amongst the best gaming has to offer. It's endlessly replayable, because the more you play, the better a handle you get on the system and the more there is to do with areas you've cleared countless times before. It's a thoroughly modern game with a resolutely old-school mechanic.
 
 
Axolotl
15:43 / 16.08.05
If anyone is interested I have a Win98 compatible version of UFO & its sequels (the underwater one, Apocalypse and a PBe-M version) that I could dig out and lend to people. The only problem is it runs very fast on computers with plenty of RAM, to the extent where controlling the cursor is difficult, but that's probably curable.
 
 
Mouse
16:01 / 16.08.05
(Yes - I've used a cpu slowdown utility before now to get UFO to be playable on a modern computer. There also may be a homebrew patch you can grab for XP compatability that also slows things down - I know there's one for Tales From The Deep somewhere.)
 
 
Quantum
18:17 / 18.08.05
UFO: Enemy Unknown is perhaps the best game ever written. Haus

Second that, and Terror from the Deep. Nothing like plotting the convoluted path of a blaster bomb into an alien ship, rubbing one's hands with glee... Naming the marines alone has given me hours of fun, sending an unarmed 'Pfc Mariah Carey' sprinting into an infested saucer is funny every time. Thank you so much for the linky, dude, I can't believe how far technology has come in the last ten years. State of the art (then) games are now freely available online, strange times we live in.

Is Rainbow Islands a flash game yet?

Does anybody else remember a retro game called Star Control?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:02 / 19.08.05
I feel a thread on _why_ UFO: Enemy Unknown is the best game ever coming on...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:00 / 21.08.05
Do it, Haus. I promise I'll join in.
 
 
Golias
07:34 / 22.08.05
I would too Haus! I have some unresolved issues with TError of the Deep and have UFO Aftermath(the latest game) to slag off : )

(Spent many weekends playing Rebelstar on my speccy with my mates...surprised I ever lost my virginity,lol)
 
 
Lord Morgue
10:08 / 22.08.05
Did anyone ever come up with a decent update of Elite?
 
 
couch
10:28 / 22.08.05
"Did anyone ever come up with a decent update of Elite?"

Braben without Bell doesn't seem to work.

Guess we have to wait till real-time ray-shading is common before Mr Bell will get back into coding games -- then we might see which of them was the genius behind Elite.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:31 / 22.08.05
There's a big multiplayer online game very much like Elite, called Eve. The website's here. While I'm sure that if you're really into Elite there's little that could tempt you, this one certainly gets top reviews and looks wonderful.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:20 / 22.08.05
There have been plenty of decent Elite clones over the years - check out Hardwar and X: Beyond the Frontier. It's also a question that doesn't have much - if anything - to do with this thread. One-off, random questions should be asked in this thread.

Haus: I'm wondering about this, and specifically wondering whether one of the issues is about what constitutes a permissible level of complexity or non-complexity.

I've been considering this and I'm thinking it's partly that, linked to the idea of playing a game to completion. Most current games 'end' in one of two ways - either the storyline reaches a conclusion and the credits roll or the menu screen has a percentage completion rate which effectively functions as a countdown until you're done. Both of these things give the illusion of there being a large amount of content, but both often also cover the fact that there's nothing else to do once 'The End' has appeared or you hit the magic 100%.

It's sort of like we've forgotten how to play an entire other type of game. Arcade games aren't about reaching the end, they're about repeating levels over until they're perfected, going for score.

Going back to Outrun 2, because it's something I've been playing again recently. I completed that - as in, I got to the end of the easy route - on my second attempt. Ten minutes of play. Most people nowadays take that to mean that the game is short, that it's easy, but that's not what it's there for. The whole point of the game is the time attack, the scoreboard. You play one section for hours at a time, perfecting the handling and the racing line, shaving thousandths of seconds off your best time and slowly creeping up to the top of the scoreboards. You do that because the handling model has enough depth and subtlety to allow you to do it.

Compare that to, say, Burnout 3. You play that to open everything up. There's a great long list of unlockables and medals in the options screens. The handling, though, is erratic and random. This is a game that's designed around the idea that quantity is quality, that content is complexity. The problem is, once you've got all the golds, once you've hit that 100%, you're never going to put any time into the single player experience again. The game tells you when it's over, when there's nothing left to do - it's right there in front of you when you load your profile.

They're both still relatively new games, only one looks to the past in its design and construction, and in doing so seems to have confused the majority of its audience. People simply no longer understand the idea that perfecting a game doesn't - or, more accurately, shouldn't - mean finishing it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:01 / 22.08.05
Arcade games aren't about reaching the end, they're about repeating levels over until they're perfected, going for score.

Oooh, interesting. I'm suddenly minded of Half-Life 2, which is in some ways of course an incredibly _modern_ game, but is in some ways, I think, quite retro. One of those ways being that the plot is almost totally linear - it's impossible to do stuff in any order other than the prescribed - and the actual game is by the standards of these tings quite sort, but at the same time the number of variations caused by individual, opponent and physics means that the same confrontation can play out in a vast number of different ways. Which leads to tactical reproducibility - looking for the "perfect kill", say, or getting through a level without taking a hit, or using the physics engine foor comic or aesthetic effect...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:46 / 22.08.05
Yes, totally, although I'd class that as a different thing from what happens in arcade gaming. The best arcade games don't just ask for perfection, they also define what sort of perfection is required. You have the freedom to decide whether you're going to play them for a quick blast or if you're going to go for that perfection, for the score. It's still freedom, and - importantly - it's still a lot more freedom than a lot of modern games offer. Something like Half-Life 2, on the other hand, gives the player the freedom to create their own rules, their own definition of perfection.

It's the same thing in Halo (the original, not the sequel) - you repeat sections because the game encourages you to think outside of its defined ruleset by offering up an almost infinite number of ways to approach any one situation. If you don't play it to try out new tricks, you play it to watch the AI try out new things itself, or adapt to your behaviour. You set yourself a task that isn't anything that you've been explicity asked to do, nor told that you can do, and you try it out. The level select option makes it obvious that this was the intention of the developers and designers. You go to the level select screen, you highlight an option and you think, right, this time I'm going to try and do it *this* way.

Look at the sequel and it's a different matter. Level design is closed off, reduced from the wildernesses and open spaces of the first game to a bunch of identikit corridors. There's no feeling of freedom now. Instead of the adaptive AI and the opportunities for experimentation, more time - in terms of the development of the single player - appears to have been spent on the storyline, on a misguided attempt to make the game more involving by putting all of the emphasis on the narrative.

Again, it's that thing about completion - Halo was never finished because there were always new things to try out. The storyline was fairly insignificant, something that came after the development of the gameplay, so when the credits rolled it didn't matter - the story had finished, but its unimportance meant that this had no impact on your desire to go back to the game. In comparison, Halo 2's single player campaign is all about the storyline, so when it's finished the game is over. They wanted to tell a story more than they wanted to create a game.

(Weirdly, it's in the sequel's multiplayer that the old freedom returns - playing in locked friends-only matches online, you find people creating their own gametypes, or trying to break through level boundaries, get up onto the tops of buildings that are blocked off by invisible ceilings. And that's notable, because it was clearly the multiplayer game that was the main focus of Bungie's development efforts.)
 
 
Lord Morgue
14:10 / 22.08.05
I think one of the things that made Daytona U.S.A. such an enduring classic was all the easter eggs- pulling a U-turn and heading the wrong way down the wrong tunnel will bring you to a dead end with the sign "Congratulations! You have just lost your sponsor." There's a jackpot game on one of the overpasses you can play for a bonus, if you stop and look at the seagulls, they take over the screen, and in the sequel you can make the statue of Jeffry McWild breakdance. You hardly ever see an arcade game with so much MEAT.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:24 / 22.08.05
But that's not meat - that's garnish. People confusing the two is precisely the reason why arcade games have become unpopular. The meat is how the thing plays - the garnish is the storyline, the incidental graphical extras, the unlockable art galleries.

Daytona USA is a meaty game, but that's because the track design and handling are superb, not because you can make a statue dance.
 
 
Lord Morgue
13:48 / 23.08.05
IT"S ALL ABOUT THE DANCING STATUE!
I consider Daytona 2 to be a Dancing Statue game, in a PITIFULLY IGNORED AND UNDERPOPULATED GENRE, with a car racing minigame.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:34 / 23.08.05
The Baldur's Gate games were mentioned upthread, and to me they represent one of the benefits of the current level of games tech: in that the "meat" (to borrow the phrase) of an RPG has always existed, but now the "garnish"- the graphics, the soubds- can be used to make that content more pleasurable. As well, internet multiplayer. Perhaps that's why RPG's are still popular, no?
 
  

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