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The legacy of Karl Marx...

 
  

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Tom Coates
10:48 / 13.08.05
So the Radio 4 / In Our Time "Greatest Philosopher Vote" ended and Karl Marx won. So the next obvious stage would seem to be to discuss the thinking, impact and legacy of Marx on the board. During the programme about him, they made a lot of interesting assertions - about Marx's rejection of philosophers as being unworldly and not wanting to change anything, about Leninism and Stalinism being anti- the Marxist philosophy and approach to history (and that he warned against 'heroes on horseback' like them), that Margaret Thatcher's declaration that there was no society just individuals, their families and their economic context was a 'profoundly Marxist sentiment'. They also talked about how Marx underestimated the flexibility of capitalism to react to change, how Marx and Engels were confused by Britain which seemed to be the most evolved capitalism of its time and yet showed no signs of revolution, and how other aspects other than just economics and class politics drive the engines of history and change. They also suggested that Marx has gone through an enormous renaissance since the nineties as people 'rediscover' what he 'actually' said.

I'll try and dig up the MP3 of the show in question, but in the meantime I thought I'd ask the board - what is your sense of the legacy of Marx? Is the philosphy redeemable? Has it been demonstrably disproven? Is he really the Greatest Philosopher? Is he a philosopher at all??
 
 
Tom Coates
08:27 / 16.08.05
Can it really be true that no one on this board has any opinions about Marx at all!?
 
 
Quantum
09:30 / 16.08.05
I am too polite to voice my opinions. Marx is like Freud (no, not just the big beard) in that he was an enormously influential thinker, genius and revolutionary whose work is now hopelessly outdated. It's like 'rediscovering' the plum pudding model of the atom (cf. Rutherford) or something.
And he was an economist and politician, not a philosopher *grumble*.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:04 / 16.08.05
What has taken place to make Marx 'outdated'? No need to be polite as long as you're cogent...
 
 
Quantum
12:15 / 16.08.05
The Twentieth Century? I hesitate because my knowledge of Marx/ism is less than thorough, but he was certainly a product of his time IMHO. The collapse of the Soviet Bloc? The victory of Capitalism? The importance of information rather than labour?
I take a bit back though, he was a philosopher, one concerned with economics and politics, and he wasn't that innovative, he mostly wove together other peoples ideas, at least for the Manifesto.
 
 
Bomb The Past
16:53 / 16.08.05
Quantum, I think your account of Marx is a little off. Firstly, I don't think the analogy of Marx's work with the Rutherford model of the atom is a particularly strong one. Development of thought in the humanities, and philosophy especially, doesn't tend to be the bumpy yet reasonably linear story of problems dealt with and left behind that we tend to find in the natural sciences. It's a more messy and tangled story for philosophy and it's often invaluable to go back and examine some of the highest expressions of certain approaches to recurring issues and problems, or at least very similar problems that have pre-occupied philosophers in the past. (I think Heidegger once remarked that there could be no philosophy without the history of philosophy, which is a sentiment I'm very much in favour of.) After all, people have read and found enormous and relevant insight from Aristotle's writings on ethics and metaphysics for centuries whereas we would regard his physics as little more than a curiosity when compared to modern scientific theories. For this reason alone I'd question the notion that Marx is hopelessly outdated because that all depends on what you're looking at him for exactly.

I take your point about the claim that Marx is the greatest philosopher in that I don't think he'd have won without his social and economic writings as well as his political and historical significance. But he did have a lot of important philosophical things to say, especially in response to the Hegelian tradition that was so dominant when he was knocking about.

This ties into what Tom mentioned about the Marxist rejection of the philosopher as unworldly, the eleventh thesis on Feuerbach: "The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it." I think this needs to be read in the context of Marx's materialism that is being sharpened by the theses. It's not just that philosophers have been disengaged from the world and ought to be more concerned with changing it. The point is that they have been disengaged for specifically philosophical reasons: either, they are idealists like Plato or Hegel who have mistaken the realm of ideas as somehow fundamental as the real actors in history that merely bring the material world in its tow; or, they have not being radical enough in their materialism, like Feuerbach, as even though they have discovered the correct relationship between the material and the ideal--the latter supervening on the former--they remain on the level of the ideal by not then engaging in practical activity on the level of the material base of society (i.e. they think they can theorise their way out of issues which require engagement with the material world).

Marx's handling of this issue alone is brilliant and in my opinion places him pretty highly in the canon of materialist thinkers alongside Hobbes, Spinoza, Nietzsche et al. It still has a lot of relevance today, especially since there has been a tendency to focus on the cultural within contemporary critical theory to the detriment of the economic. Thankfully, this is something that theorists like Zizek are trying to combat at the moment. So, while he didn't get my vote (Wittgenstein did), I think Marx deserves to be placed fairly highly.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:24 / 16.08.05
Marx is like Freud (no, not just the big beard) in that he was an enormously influential thinker, genius and revolutionary whose work is now hopelessly outdated

And how is Freud outdated? I'll just bring back our old friend Oliver James momentarily. Psychoanalysts all over the world are still using his work as the basis for their practice.

Sorry this is threadrot but your opinion on two of the figureheads of C20th thought seems quite unexamined. Perhaps you'd like to go into it in more detail?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:18 / 17.08.05
Marx's legacy is all over the place; many if not most revolutionary philosophies of today owe a debt to him - even those which would rather he'd never existed. Whether they adapt his Historical Materialism to their own beliefs or assert that revolution is the necessary precursor to radical social change, or whether they deploy analyses based on Marxian notions of economics (in or out of the economic theoretical sphere), Karl Marx's hand is upon them. The same is true of far less radical thought; Marx is unquestionably one of the most significant thinkers in history. Even his errors are with us still.

What is not clear to me is what the core tenets of Revolutionary Marxism in the 21st Century would be, how the various peoples of the world can be fitted into his western-specific class and social analysis, nor whether Marxism now must necessarily be globalist in scope. Lenin is reviled by most Marxists I've met recently, which is fair enough, but Leninism was a response to the inescapable fact that there was no Enlightened Proletariat in Russia, nor was likely to be without significant social reform. The same applies writ large to the world as a whole - and if there were such a proletariat, it seems likely to me that armed revolution would be unnecessary in any democratic or even quasi-democratic nation.
 
 
Quantum
18:47 / 17.08.05
I'm not saying he wasn't influential, that would be ludicrous. His legacy is apparent, and many people have built on his work, He's the grandfather of many movements etc.
But personally I find most of his ideas unconvincing for the reasons which I'm sure many have pointed out before- he undervalues human spirituality for one, I totally disagree that history is cyclic in the way he claimed, generally found dialectical materialism to be a product of the time it was created, and fundamentally disagree with his materialism (as I disagree with most materialist stances, I am philosophically a subjectivist, idealist and at best an experiential dualist). I adopt a more phenomenological p.o.v. which makes contemporary theory more plausible.
Again I'm happy to admit my knowledge of Marxism is sub-undergraduate. My difficulty with Freud is of a different stripe due to knowing a lot more about it ('I'm a psychologist and philosopher Jim, not a political theorist!' apologies to Bones McCoy) but perhaps that's for another thread.

Development of thought in the humanities, and philosophy especially, doesn't tend to be the bumpy yet reasonably linear story of problems dealt with and left behind that we tend to find in the natural sciences (Bomb the Past)

Fair point. Let me amend the metaphor to say I think his work is as relevant today as, er, Hume.

And how is Freud outdated? (Nina)
Oh let me count the ways. In another thread sometime. :]
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:39 / 18.08.05
Perhaps you could start that thread Quantum?
 
 
Quantum
10:38 / 20.08.05
Anyone want to attempt to defend his materialism? I'm surprised socialists aren't clawing down my door screaming 'heretic' by now to be honest.

(BTW Nick started the Freud Thread.)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:03 / 22.08.05
It doesn't happen - at least, it doesn't happen here. I've punted that one into the Barbesphere occasionally, and everyone who posts here who has Marxian leanings simply is too sensible to throw down on behalf of a teleological approach to history.

Other questions:

What is a proletarian? How is a proletariat formed? Can the evolution of a proletariat be hurried along by education?

Is class global or relative? Is it necessary for the peasant classes of agricultural nations to become urban or rural (if such a thing is possible) proletariats before a Socialist Revolution is possible? Will the Revolution be global or local?

Is revolution - in the sense of armed insurrection culminating in a change of regime and social system - a necessary part of the move from one form of society to another?

What effect does the existence of a theory of Socialist Revolution have on the likelihood of such a Revolution?
 
 
Jackie Susann
00:25 / 23.08.05
Not to ignore your questions, but maybe worth coming at Marx-as-philosopher from another angle? Althusser (or maybe Balibar? getting mixed up now) argued that Marx's great philosophical innovation was a new way of using the example. In philosophy pre-Marx, the example merely, uh, exemplified the concept. In a work like Capital, on the other hand, the great empirical examples (like the long section on struggles around the 8 hour day) thoroughly transform their concept - no concept survives its encounter with an example in its original form.

This not to downplay his significance as a social theorist, but I think this is at least one 'legacy of Marx', and an influential one.
 
 
jbsay
02:37 / 23.08.05
Tom,

Marxist theory has been demonstrably disproven both in theory and in practice

No marxist has been able to get around the "economic calculation in the socialist commonwealth problem", for starters.

Marx's labor theory of value was disproven by subjective value theory (marginal value). Between subjective valuation and time preferences, it can be pretty clearly proven that there need be no class war.

If theory doesnt interest you, compare the 100 years following the Jeffersonian Revolution v. the Bolsheviks. Or any of the myriad examples of basket case communist economies in south/central america or asia.
 
 
jbsay
02:52 / 23.08.05
Marx also had a tendency to advocate the ad hominem method of debate. The only retort that he et. al could advance against their critics was their ideology doctrine.

According to this doctrine a man's intellectual horizon is entirely determined by his class affiliation. The individual is constitutionally unable to reach out and to grasp any other doctrine than one that furthers the interests of his own "class" at the expense of other "classes." It is, therefore, unnecessary for a proletarian to pay any heed to bourgeois thinkers and to waste time refuting their statements. All that is needed is to unmask their bourgeois background. That settles the matter.

This is the method to which Marx and Marxians resorted in dealing with all dissenters. They never embarked upon the impossible task of defending their self-contradictory system against devastating criticism. All they did was to call their opponents stupid bourgeois and to ascribe their opposition to their bourgeois class affiliation.

But Marx and Engels also contradicted their own doctrine. They both were scions of bourgeois families, raised and living in a typical middle class milieu.

Marx was the son of a well-to-do member of the bar and married the daughter of a Prussian nobleman. His brother-in-law was Cabinet Minister of the Interior and as such the Chief of the Royal Prussian Police.

Engels was the son of a wealthy manufacturer and a rich businessman himself; he indulged in the amusements of the British gentry (riding to hounds in a red coat, and refused to marry his mistress because she was of low origin).

In conclusion, from the Marxian point of view one would have to qualify Marxism as a doctrine of bourgeois origin and therefore dismiss it out of hand.
 
 
Jackie Susann
04:55 / 23.08.05
To pick only one example, this is a ridiculous and contradictory assertion:

According to this doctrine a man's intellectual horizon is entirely determined by his class affiliation.

If Marx thought class entirely determined anyone's intellectual horizon, he would have had to think that working class people had working class ideas, in which case ideology would not be a problem.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:08 / 23.08.05
Crunchy - Marx-as-philosopher - yes. I'm enthralled by praxis and reification, too.

More generally - and I hesitate here, because it might seem to echo jbsay - another question: is a planned economy still part of the Marxist/Socialist project?

jbsay - that was so silly that Barbelith is about to be witness to something highly unusual; Nick-for-Marx.

If theory doesnt interest you, compare the 100 years following the Jeffersonian Revolution v. the Bolsheviks. Or any of the myriad examples of basket case communist economies in south/central america or asia.

Bolshevism was not Marxism, it was political opportunism with a Socialist/Leninist veneer. Lenin grabbed power in a civil war, not a revolution, and advocated voluntarism and cadres to force Socialism rather than evolve it. It's entirely possible that the coup d'etat which brought Lenin to power retarded Socialism in Russia by a century at least, as the Bourgeois Capitalist state which should have followed Tsarism was replaced by Leninist absolute monarchs. Similarly, the kleptocracies of Asia and South America have little to do with Marx's ideas beyond a passing allegiance to centralised control and a lot of rhetoric. Marxism has never been disproven in practice because it has never been attempted - and indeed, cannot be attempted - until various basic conditions are met.

The accepted fact that Marx and Engels were not proletarians does not invalidate Marx's work; it may highlight a deficiency in his arguemntative technique, although your assessment of his responses to criticism is somewhat lacking - especially in examples. That of itself does not mean the analysis he proposed is incorrect, only that he may not have defended it as ably as he could have.

It's not clear to me that the demise of the labour theory of value would mean an end to Marxian analysis (for example: Marx might respond that this did not contradict his understanding of prices, in which sectors of the economy which have higher "capital intensity" (greater roundaboutness) have higher prices (see below). The difference, it seems, between Marx and Böhm-Bawerk concerns perspective: for Böhm-Bawerk, roundaboutness explains entrepreneurial profits on the microeconomic level, whereas for Marx, a society-wide institutional explanation is needed. To him, roundaboutness explains only those profits of the more capital-intensive operations relative to less capital-intensive ones. ref; at the same time, it seems to me that the model has merit as a component of a more sophisticated factoring of worth - increasingly so, in this age of calculation of environmental cost and so on: if a good requires labour in the form of mechanical work as well as human labour, that in turn implies an increased infrastructural investment, and with it environmental and social cost.

In any case, the issue is not whether Marx was right in every particular, but whether his case still has power, and indeed it does. He may not have ended economics by getting everything perfectly right - he'd have been a formidable prophet to do that - but modern thinkers with access to modern perspectives on complex economic models can still use his tools and his work and combine it with their own.

It's worth noting at this point that Kaustky wrote in 1904 on whether the Communist Manifesto was obsolete - it's hardly a new argument.

Let's talk for a second about one of Marx's major concepts - alienation; the separation of an individual from the product of work, and hence from the self. To me, this appears endemic in or society. More, I'd say that it has acquired new faces, that the consequences of late Modernity include alienation from the natural world, and the impossible quandries of the work/life balance and the boundaries between professional and personal - for example, the individual in the workplace may be called upon to subdue a moral judgement that the work is in some way unethical because such a feeling is unprofessional. Corporations, goverments, and other abstract systems behave in ways which are sometimes inimical to human life and to the creation of value and good life (vide the environment, smoking, the arms trade) - but these things are no more than alienated aspects of ourselves, independental functional systems from which we are so divorced that we see them as external rather than things of which we are a part.

In short, jbsay, if you want to come after Marx, you're going to need a bigger boat.

Tom:

You ask in the abstract whether Marx was a philosopher at all, and something occurs to me at this point; Marx's moral underpinning is his concept of 'human nature' as creative. This ties to recent suggestions of humans being distinct from animals as 'tool-makers' - Marx says that the architect is different from the spider because he or she first imagines the whole structure, where the spider just acts on instinct. That calls to mind Weber's distinction between rational and irrational, but the notion itself and the claim that what is natural to us is to our benefit seem to go unexamined.

Random note:

I've recently read Ruskin on Life and Art, and it seems to me that the distinction he makes in talking about church architecture between rough, individual construction and undifferentiated, almost mass-produced work as Christian and un-Christian - on the basis that the former expresses identity and the latter is enslaved - seems relevant here.
 
 
jmw
19:25 / 23.08.05
Quantum:
i take a bit back though, he was a philosopher, one concerned with economics and politics, and he wasn't that innovative, he mostly wove together other peoples ideas, at least for the Manifesto.


Something of a straw man argument there. The Manifesto is the 19th century equivalent of a party political broadcast. In short, it is a specific intervention in the political circumstances of a time and place. It's purpose was to create a 'communist movement', to bring a concrete political movement into existence at a time when there was only an inchoate and conflict-ridden labour movement and phantasmagoric bourgeois fears of the workers finally getting pissed off and slapping down their bosses.

If anyone wants to have a go at Marx, start with Capital, which is his serious intellectual work, not the Manifesto which was an open attempt to fan the flames.

J...
 
 
jmw
19:32 / 23.08.05
While I accept that his work on alienation is probably the single most important aspect of Marx's legacy today, I do worry that in an attempt to salvage Marx from the ossified remains of the Soviet Union, his economic analysis has been kept only by getting rid of his views on agency (or subjectivity if you prefer, see Descartes, Zizek etc).

Babies and bathwater, etc. Remove the subject and what is left? An economic analysis?

J...

PS Two other things:

Firstly, are today's anti-globalisation activists anti-Marxist in that they reject reason, progress and all of the other Enlightenment values (modernism) that are central to Marxism? It seems to me that many of the anti-globalisation people are, arguably, reflective of the same kind of inchoate petit-bourgeois conservatism and Proudhonian pseudo-anarchism that Marx was at pains to distance himself from.

Secondly, in response to Tom, do Marx need to be "redeemed"? Does anyone who doesn't read the Daily Mail (or Washington Times) hold Marx responsible for acts committed in his name?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:12 / 23.08.05
Firstly, are today's anti-globalisation activists anti-Marxist in that they reject reason, progress and all of the other Enlightenment values (modernism) that are central to Marxism?

Before we can answer that question, we'd need to see some evidence that today's anti-globalisation activists (might need to define who you mean there) do in fact reject reason and progress (not that those two terms are self-evident in their meaning, either)...
 
 
jmw
22:11 / 23.08.05
Before we can answer that question, we'd need to see some evidence that today's anti-globalisation activists (might need to define who you mean there) do in fact reject reason and progress (not that those two terms are self-evident in their meaning, either)...

OK, what I am asking, and I'm by no means sure of this, is does today's anti-globalisation movement have any similarity with 20th century Marxism except in its rejection of capitalism

What is/who are the anti-globalisation movement? For now, we can ignore the right-wing anti-globalists (be they protectionist farmers or 'facists') and probably the trade union contingent and Marxist rump.

Who I'm referring to are environmentalist activists such as Earth First and any of the multitude of anti-Marxist post-modernists (be they post-Marxists, post-left anarchists, modern primitives, counterculturists, social democrats, or whatever else). Think G8 protests.

Deep ecologists and post-modernists obviously reject both progress. Furthermore, post-modernism explicitly rejects reason, both of which terms I am using in the strict Enlightenment sense.

What I'm wondering is, though there is plenty to criticise in capitalism, are the aspects most vilified today not precisely those which Marx would have (and did) applauded? In short, its universalising tendencies: more development, demonstrable technological progress, economic growth etc.

It can seem sometimes that the objections to capitalism are actually objections to modernity.

J...
 
 
Jackie Susann
22:47 / 23.08.05
any of the multitude of anti-Marxist post-modernists

surely this kind of begs the question? anyway, i don't think there is a coherent enough axis here to tie down to any particular line vis major themes of marxism and/or the enlightenment. on the other hand, it kinda depends what you mean by marxism - you could certainly derive an argument from marx that reads so-called anti-globalisation movements as forms of class struggle - as has been done by most sectarian trot groups, negri, halloway, etc.

i would def consider them communist (i.e., not nec the same as marxism, but connected), at their best, but then i have an irrational attachment to the word 'communism', so whatever. but i mean anti-capitalism = anti-work = communism, at least in my brain.

meanwhile with the bolshevik vs jeffersonian revolutions thing upthread, i am no us historian but was that really a rad hundred years? isn't it kinda like, slavery/poverty/patriarchy/indigenous genocide/war? not that i think things were great after 1917, but shit.
 
 
jbsay
23:01 / 23.08.05
Nick,

First, I was simply pointing out the most glaring errors in Marx. To give a blow-by-blow analysis of everything Marx got wrong (or Keynes, for that matter), would take an inordinate amount of time. Other have done this already, PM for references.

I take issue with both your understanding and the Wiki entry of subjective value.

Economic calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth guts the core of Marxian doctrine, and no Marxist has been able to rebut this. If you can get around this, then by all means resuscitate Marx. It is impossible to allocate resources under public property. Marx’s understanding of prices is nonexistent. Why? You cannot have a market price system without a private property. Period. Prices ONLY arise from voluntary exchange of private property between individuals. It is therefore impossible under communism, or public ownership of the means of production. Among other reasons, this makes communism economically impossible in the long run. Communists are economically blind. The structure of production will collapse in on itself and people will return to hunting and gathering.

Further, value is not defined by the roundaboutness of production. You can come up with an incredibly roundabout or capital intensive way of building a giant steam powered tricycle, but if no consumers value it (subjective valuation) your sales and profits will be 0. Valuation is entirely consumer’s subjective valuiiations.

Finally, under a fully private property regime, your environmental costs are already taken care of, no need for Marx. I don’t agree with the terminology, but the mainstream would call this “internalizing externalities”. Your "environmental costs" are really "tragedy of the commons", which result from poorly defined (or enforced) private property (i.e., public property).

There is no such thing as social cost. Society is a metaphor for individuals. Only individuals can act or have preferences (or costs). Since these valuations are SUBJECTIVE (i.e, can only be ranked, not added or subtracted) and INDIVIDUAL, you cannot ADD these individual subjective valuations to derive social cost.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:09 / 23.08.05
To give a blow-by-blow analysis of everything Marx got wrong (or Keynes, for that matter), would take an inordinate amount of time. Other have done this already, PM for references.

Is there any chance at all that you're not going to provide Nick with a link to Von Mises if he does PM you?
 
 
jbsay
23:14 / 23.08.05
Nick,

Per your point about Russia/Asia etc. What all of these regimes have in common are defacto public ownership of the means of production and centralized "planned" economies. ECONOMICALLY, this is the hallmark of the different varieties of socialism, whether you call it communism, bolshevikism, national socialism, fascism, marxism, kleptocracism, mercantilism, corporativism, or what have you. The key from an ECONOMIC standpoint is that they all do away with private property rights in favor of public ownership of the means of production.

And, in addition to the economies turning into basket cases, once you do away with individual's rights to self-ownership (and his right to the fruits of his labor, i.e., his property), you end up with particularly nasty social problems (police state slavery)
 
 
jbsay
23:16 / 23.08.05
Nina, is there any chance you will do us the favor of rebutting (or referencing a rebuttal to) the "impossibility of economic calculation in the socialist commonwealth"?
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:23 / 23.08.05
how bout this: you are rebutting marxism as critical form of political economy, not marxism as critique of political economy - i.e., yeah there are no prices in communism, that's the point! claiming this will lead back to hunter-gathering is tendentious and unsupported.
 
 
jbsay
23:29 / 23.08.05
First, I was critizing Nick's point that Marx and subjective valuationists are saying the same thing about pricing. That is entirely false.

Second, explain to me, step by step, how you will build a shoe factory without prices? Where will you put the factory? How many shoes will you make? What sizes? Out of what materials? How will you distribute it? How do you know how many shoes to make versus food?

The point is, without prices it is economically impossible. You have no signalling mechanism. The communists are economically blind. There are an infinite # of choices. Only the distributed swarm intelligence of free individuals making buy/sell decisions based on their own individual subjective valuation (i.e. the free market and the prices that arise from it) can solve this problem.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:35 / 23.08.05
Why the fuck would you want to build a shoe factory?

Only the distributed swarm intelligence of free individuals making buy/sell decisions based on their own individual subjective valuation (i.e. the free market and the prices that arise from it) can solve this problem.

Where did that 'only' come from? This isn't even historically accurate - there have been a range of forms of production that weren't based on 'swarms of free individuals making buy/sell decisions'.

Meanwhile, that's my whole point, communists are economically blind. Yeah, cause they're/we're against economics. It's like saying atheists are catholically blind.
 
 
jbsay
23:45 / 23.08.05
First, the shoe factory was an example. You can pick any example you'd like. From food to computers to entertainment. It makes no difference.

Second, the "only" comes from this. It can be shown that you cannot economically allocate resources without pricing, and that pricing only arises from private property.

What forms of production aren't based on profit and loss? You cannot build up a structure of production without profit and loss. Profit and loss cannot arise without prices. Division of labor and comparative advantage cannot occure without prices. Without prices, you can sustain only the base of the structure of produdction (the least roundabout industries), i.e. living hand to mouth.

I dont mean economically blind in an idealogical sense, although that may be true as well. I'm not saying you're economically ignorant (which may or may not be true). I'm saying communists are blind from a DECISION MAKING perspective. They can't see all the data: there are an infinite array of choices.

As in, you are flying, with no radar, and your cockpit is painted black. You have no idea where you are going.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:54 / 23.08.05
It doesn't matter what kind of factory it is - its about whether you want factories. Once you've accepted factories you've accepted the division of labour and hierarchical social relations; you've effectively accepted capitalism. You are not talking about communism, you are talking about various kinds of exploitation, i.e., capital accumulation. When you say 'economy', you mean 'capital accumulation'. Sure, it can be shown that you cannot economically allocate resources without pricing. But this doesn't mean the only ways to allocate resources are economic. Cf a bazillion anthropological essays on "gift economies", for a start.
 
 
jbsay
23:59 / 23.08.05
Basically, it is conceptually similar to an NP-complete problem in computer science (note i didn't say identical, i just said conceptually similar). The common example is the traveling salesman problem. Even if you have the smartest, best educated, nicest salesman in the world, its nearly impossible for him to figure it out. Colonies of stupid ants (swarms), on the other hand, do a better job of solving these types of problems. Each ant has localized information, the ants (WITHOUT ANY TOP DOWN REGULATION) can coordinate their actions to solve the colony's problems, without the individual ants being conscious of helping the other ants. Etc.

The point is, that even if you have the nicest, most honest, most intelligent, most educated communists in the world, with the most advanced computer systems and data, they could not figure out even simple problems that the price system solves easily. Similar conceptually to Adam Smith's invisible hand, which arises out of the price system.

There are infinite combinations and permutations of choices involved in even simple economic decisions, and without prices you have no way of comparing them. So you are economically blind.
 
 
jbsay
00:00 / 24.08.05
Listen. IT DOESNT NEED TO BE A FACTORY. THE FACTORY WAS AN EXAMPLE. It can be a doll-knitting business run out of your mom's house wit no employees. Or a local farmer.
 
 
jbsay
00:02 / 24.08.05
You will note that gift economies equate highly with low standards of living. The only way to improve your standard of living is to accumulate capital per person. Note that standard of living does NOT mean material goods. It can mean, more vacation time to devote to one's family or spiritual ends.


How can you "gift" something if you havent previously accumulated it in the past? Isn't that capital accumulation?
 
 
Jackie Susann
00:24 / 24.08.05
The point is, that even if you have the nicest, most honest, most intelligent, most educated communists in the world, with the most advanced computer systems and data, they could not figure out even simple problems that the price system solves easily.

Okay. Over 500 million people globally live in quote-unquote absolute poverty. Four million die of starvation, annually. Millions of Africans are dying of AIDS, not to mention other treatable diseases, because pharmaceutical companies refuse to release patent rights. The most conservative estimates put the number of people living in forms of forced bondage, i.e., slavery, at 27 million, with others estimating as much as ten times that. What problems, exactly, does the price system solve ‘easily’?

You are writing as if communism meant planned economy. It does not. Communism means the free association of producers, i.e., without the compulsion to sell their labour power for the means of subsistence. In your terms, if I understand you, it is much more likely to allocate resources effectively than capital because it is a bottoms-up system. Capital as such - the value-form - is top-down.
 
  

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