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Galloway makes another speech - what do you think?

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
11:53 / 11.08.05
it's not actually a fact, though, and your wholehearted agreement with this perspective does not make it any more so. Just because, on this occasion, it's my perspective too, and just because I have been known to articulate it in the same manner, does not magically transmute it into fact either.

So the relative bodycounts of the London bombings of 7th July and the Iraq War are subjective opinions, not factual in any way?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:16 / 11.08.05
I've offered plenty of opinions, Phex. I am about to express another one. In my opion, when your interlocutor starts quoting fragments of sentences, putting an insulting comment beneath each, then there is not much point in continuing to talk to them. I'll pop back in a bit when all is calmer.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:28 / 11.08.05
Well, is Pakistan, our ally, a 'civilised' society in your view? Musharraf took power in a coup, since declared legal and Pakistan is ostensibly now democratic. How does Pakistan fit into this of 'better' and 'worse' for the region/the West.

It also, after accepting huge bundles of aid from Saudi Arabia, has installed Shariah law as jurisdiction in it's courts...

So, although I am not saying I wholly disagree with some of your points, your assumption that Shariah law and democracy aremutually exclusive is questionable.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:29 / 11.08.05
That in response to Phex, not Haus.
 
 
sleazenation
14:10 / 11.08.05
How about we attempt top seperate some of the non(directly)-Galloway related strands...
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:14 / 11.08.05
I haven't used the word 'civilised' in my posts because I don't really find it that useful in describing societies (a peaceful tribe of hunter-gatherers would be less 'civilised' than a technologically advanved nation that bombs other nations to in order to force its will upon them, etc.) I've used the more nebulous terms good/bad, better/worse, which I admit aren't particularly helpful in themselves, but seeing as we're all on broadly the same page (i.e, nobody on this board would want to live in the sort of society Al-Qaeda et al. wishes to create) they're the best terms I can use.
To answer your question: I wouldn't call Pakistan a 'good' nation, or Musharraf a 'good' leader. This said, the BBC2 show 'The New Al-Qaeda' had lengthy interviews with Musharraf, his head of Intelligence (I don't know whether it's the same guy who gave $100,000 to the 9/11 ringleader a week or so before the attacks, but maybe) and several generals fighting on the Afghan/Pakistani border and they seem to be moving Pakistan in the right direction (Musharraf now requires Masalas, religious schools, to teach other subjects besides the Koran for example) though how far they will go towards making Pakistan a better place remains to be seen.
Also, I wouldn't say that Shariah law and Democracy are incompatible. In theory a country could elect a hard-line Islamist party, live for four years under Shariah law then vote in a secular government. However, it is often the case that those imposing Shariah (and those who wish to impose it, like Al-Qaeda) would be totally unwilling to relinquish control to people they would consider kaffirs.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:26 / 11.08.05
Dude, 'Masala' is a type of curry.

I think you mean 'Madrassa'.

Easy mistake to make...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:27 / 11.08.05
And so, in it's own way, Saddam's secular, completely intolerant of Shariah society was 'better' than at least one of the now possible alternatives, yes?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:32 / 11.08.05
a valid statement of Al Qaeda's objectives [is to] establish states based on Shariah (Islamic law, specifically Islamic law based on literal interpretations of the Koran, which does not accept any interpretation created after the life of Muhammad), and this would include Iraq. This would mean curtailing freedoms that Iraqis have, and even those they had under Saddam (the wearing of a Burqa would not be optional and theives would have their hands cut off, for example) so yes, this would be a marked step backwards from where Iraq is now.

And

I don't think democracy and Shariah are incompatible

So a marked step backwards from where Iraq is now does not preclude a democratic government there? Iraqi's could somehow end up with a democracy that leaves them with less freedom than they enjoyed under Saddam?

I'm confused.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:31 / 11.08.05
D'oh. I guess that Madrassa/Massala thing was a Freudian slip for 'I want some curry'.
As for the second part, 'Islamic Law' is a pretty huge thing. The particular interpretations of Shariah that Al Qaeda (strict literalism), Iran (Ayatolla Khomeni's influential commentary on the Koran), Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and others perscribe to allow either no democratic freedoms or severely limited freedoms. Of course a moderate form of Islam which doesn't consider those freedoms to be violations of Shariah law could take power in a Muslim nation and enforce what would technically be Shariah but wouldn't look anything like the Shariah practiced in Afghanistan under the Taliban.
Now where's that take-away menu...?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:11 / 11.08.05
*rot*

Haha! It actually means 'mixture', literally. Hence, Garam Masala = Spice Mixture.

Dr. Freud to ER, stat.

/*rot*
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:13 / 11.08.05
BTW, will respond to your post when I'm a lot less drunk.
 
 
grime
18:26 / 12.08.05
Again the similarities between american and islamic cultures surprise.

shariah law could very well become the corner stone of a democratic islamic republic. look at the percieved role of the ten commandments in western culture. a great many people believe that the fundamental basis of american law and morality was dictated to moses by god.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:33 / 05.11.05
Soooo.....

Blair's new terrorism bill scraped through with a majority of one.

George Galloway, who could no doubt have been expected to vote against, had a paying lecture engagement elsewhere.

Does it not occur to anyone else that anyone going to see the man speak would have quite understood had he felt it more important to cancel and go to the House to make his views felt on what's really rather an important matter?

Or does the lecture circuit count for more these days?

I'm sorry- I've always had a lot of time for George, but everyone knew this one was gonna be tight, and that a vote could have made a difference. (Sorry to bang on about this- I've mentioned it already in another thread, but then thought- why not rant in an actual Galloway thread, so sorry if I'm repeating myself).

Anyone else got any opinions on this? Personally I'd call it dereliction of duty, but ymmv.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:35 / 05.11.05
The vote was on an amendment, it wasn't on the bill. All that would have happened if it hadn't been defeated would be that the words "and intends that his statement shall have that effect" would have been added to the section on incitement - it's just a sham, the government pretending they've "listened to objections and responded" and so on.
 
  

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