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Galloway makes another speech - what do you think?

 
  

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Lurid Archive
04:27 / 03.08.05
Galloway has made a speech - translations by MEMRI, but apparently there is a video clip as well. Perhaps predictably, this has got some people annoyed.

The key phrases that seem to be most controversial are,

Two of your beautiful daughters are in the hands of foreigners - Jerusalem and Baghdad. The foreigners are doing to your daughters as they will. The daughters are crying for help, and the Arab world is silent. And some of them are collaborating with the rape of these two beautiful Arab daughters. Why? Because they are too weak and too corrupt to do anything about it.

Is this sexist incitement to hatred? I don't like the language at all, really, but I must confess that I find it hard to see him as a source of such enormous outrage. While saying that the "real" terrorists are Bush, Blair, Aznar and Berlusconi is going to have predictable consequences, I don't see it as beyond the pale in the way that Harry's Place does.
 
 
w1rebaby
07:43 / 03.08.05
"Harry's Place criticises Galloway" is a bit like "LGF criticises Michael Moore" - it doesn't really mean much, they just plain hate him there.

I'm not terribly fond of the bit you quoted either; first of all it's framed in overblown socially conservative rhetoric and secondly, while you could reasonably say that the Israeli state had a "foreign" origin and was backed by foreigners, another interpretation that many could take is that Jews are the "foreigners" because of their Jewishness, and that seems an irresponsible thing to say. I don't think Galloway is an anti-semite himself but he often seems rather unconcerned that he might be encouraging it. (Although I admit to not having watched the entire interview, and I'm sure that MEMRI would want to concentrate on extracts that they felt would portray him in a bad light.)

As for the rest of it, I've not got a problem there. A lot of it is simple fact and the rest is certainly defendable. Note how the comments criticising Galloway on the HP entry almost exclusively concentrate on the quoted part, moving into standard "Islam - religion of hate" rhetoric after a while, and the only reference to the other remarks are a few shouts of "traitor" and "we're not terrorists how dare he".
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:00 / 03.08.05
"Harry's Place criticises Galloway" is a bit like "LGF criticises Michael Moore" - it doesn't really mean much, they just plain hate him there.

Yes, of course thats true which is why I don't read Harry's place very much. I suppose I am interested, even a little disturbed, that at this point there is a substantial part of the pro-war crowd who pretty much regard being anti-war as a traitorous act.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:48 / 03.08.05
That said, Galloway is a strange fish.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:36 / 03.08.05
Yeah, a strange, sick, wrong-headed fish who glorifies killers to get off on the rush being 'censored' when people point out what a strange, sick, wrong-headed little fish he is. This is a guy who calls the dissapearence of the Soviet Union "biggest catastrophe of my life" (source: wikipedia). Are his comments sexist incitement to hatred? Sexist maybe, but incitement to hatred definitely. Hatred, on both sides, can only arise when you whitewash your own sides' atrocities and demonise your enemies; that's why most people in the West and the Middle East don't hate the people our governments/terrorist groups have decided are our enemies, because we are aware that the groups that claim to serve our interests do so in a ham-fisted and brutal way.
As a side note, what do people think the Syrian people who heard Galloway's speech will make of it? It's essentially the same double-think and bullshit they can hear from any of their less sane opinion makers, but coming from a white, Christian, left-wing member of an enemy nation's parliament is it less or more persuasive? What do you think it conveys to Syrian citizens about the West's left and anti-war movements?
 
 
w1rebaby
16:22 / 03.08.05
(Just watched the video incidentally - all it has on it is the bits quoted by MEMRI so I guess we'll never know the whole of what he said unless somebody else cares to release it.)

Lurid:

Yes, of course thats true which is why I don't read Harry's place very much. I suppose I am interested, even a little disturbed, that at this point there is a substantial part of the pro-war crowd who pretty much regard being anti-war as a traitorous act.

I can understand this, or at least accept it, from the warblogging lot; there's always been a high level of fanaticism, denial and demonisation of the opposition going on there, stirred by the hyperbole of the various pundits like Coulter, Malkin et al. I find Harry's Place a bit disturbing though because it is actually pretty leftie and not a simple conduit for White House talking points, yet it seems to spend the majority of its time attacking anybody on the UK left who has anything to do with Muslims, something I've seen elsewhere too.

While they may claim that they're just talking about extreme, homophobic, anti-semitic groups, the comments that regularly go unchallenged seem to indicate otherwise; there's all sorts of stuff that seems to be calling Galloway a Muslin as an insult for example.

I can see that there's a certain logic in the UK left being traditionally secularist and thus opposing any alliance with anything resembling religion, but it all leaves me both nonplussed and suspicious. Nonplussed because I really can't see that innocently falling into alliances with unpleasant Islamic groups is the exactly the biggest danger facing the left in the UK, and suspicious because it seems terribly convenient and easy. Ranting about the evils of fundies seems to lead straight on to falling unthinkingly into the hands of the "culture war" merchants, who would have us believe that everything that Muslims do that the government doesn't like is because of a small set of fanatics who hate our freedom and can't be argued with, rather than seeing that any other factors might be involved. It's a comfortable position to be in because so much of the media and government are on your side. It's not, though, a very accurate one when considering things as a whole.

The reason I would say that they call Galloway "McHawHaw" is because they think he's betraying not the country but the left to this religious enemy by saying anything bad about the west in Muslim countries. At least, that's what the surface motivation is.

Phex: perhaps you could give us a once-over on the bits of Galloway's statements that you find particularly objectionable.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:30 / 03.08.05
On reflection it would be better to say that Harry's Place is nominally leftie. Sort of leftish liberal. It's not what you'd call a "conservative" blog though.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
19:06 / 03.08.05
FM: Okay, the parts I find particularly objectionable (and remember that the MEMRI article contains only the objectionable parts of Galloway's speech, though I'm sure there's more) would probably be:

Galloway: The idea that Muslims have some kind of sickness in their bodies, which must be cured, which is the idea behind Bush

Muslim's in Afghanistan and Iraq have been able to practice their faith with the same freedom after the wars as they have before the wars. Coalition forces aren't tearing down Mosques or sending missionaries to convert Muslims, and they can't and won't ever do this. In Iraq the minority Sunnis no longer control the majority Shiites, who, don't forget, are legitimate targets for insurgents inspired by the Koran interpretations of Mohammed ibn abd al-Wahhab et al.

The whole second paragraph

This paragraph and much of the next reads as a call for jihad. Galloway starts by saying that two of the Arab world's 'daughters' are being 'raped' by foreigners, that the Arab governments -kept weak and divided by those same foreign powers- are doing nothing, then juxtaposes this with a glowing review of the Iraqi resistance (those brave and noble freedom fighters who videotape beheadings and blow themselves up in crowds of children sullying themselves by accepting sweets from the Infidel). These passages make it look a lot like Galloway supports the terrorists in Iraq and elsewhere and their aims, though without seeing the full speech it is difficult to know for sure.

... to defend their country, to defend their honor, to defend their families, their religion, their way of life...

See my first point. There is simply no evidence to support the charge that the American occupation is attempting to change or subvert the Iraqi (or Arab) way of life. The only threat to Iraqi families comes from reprisals against the insurgency, which would end, like the whole occupation would end, if dissafected Iraqis adopted peaceful means for change instead of pointless violence.

And they are winning the war. America is losing the war in Iraq, and even the Americans now admit it

IMHO, America is going to withdraw from Iraq when the adminstration feels like it, not before. Leaving the poorly equipped and undermanned Iraqi police to deal with the insurgency would be a moral nightmare. Even people (like myself) who opposed the war should see that the right thing for America to do is to clean up the mess they made. They have no reason to leave until they do, therefore the struggle the insurgents are engaged in is pointless.

We believe in the Prophets, peace be upon them.

Who is 'we' George? Galloway is a Roman Catholic and though he may not be devout (he is pro-choice for example) he still believes in the Christian God, and his son Jesus (who admittedly is a minor prophet in Islam). He is not Muslim. If he believed that the Koran is the word of Allah, as given to the Prophet Mohammad by the angel Gabriel, then he would have converted.

Most of the children, most of the schools, most of the buses, were bombed by the United States... Most of the children who died in Iraq were killed by George Bush, not by Zarqawi

That's because they have a multi-trillion dollar defense budget and an army that uses smart-bombs, ariel drones, robotic 'SWORDS' soldiers and, soon, microwave crowd-control weapons. If Zarqawi had that sort of weaponry and budget then there wouldn't be a coalition member, Shiite, Christian, Kurd or Sufi left alive in Iraq, and the same would go for everywhere else shortly after. They haven't killed as many Iraqi civilians as the Americans because they can't, not becasue wouldn't if given the means to. If it was Coalition policy to kill as many Iraqis as possible they could use their own WMDs on the country, and it'd be a smoking crater in half an hour. Galloway's lapse in logic paints Zarqawi, a murderer and terrorist following a heretical interpretation of the Koran, as being morally superior to a country that, for all the evil it has committed over the years, deposed a dictator and allowed a nation of twenty-six million to elect its own government.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:17 / 03.08.05
We believe in the Prophets, peace be upon them.

I understand your problem with the rest of what Galloway's said, he speaks in an intensely rhetorical way and it often annoys me but I don't have a problem with this and phex, I think you're picking at straws here because it is wrong to fault someone for giving as much importance to someone else's god as their own. Many, many wars have been started because people have not done that.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:59 / 03.08.05
True, and maybe I am picking at straws by highlighting this particular comment, but Galloway did use the word 'We', meaning his audience and himself. While he may understand and respect the Prophets of Islam, and use the correct ettiquette when reffering to them ('peace be upon them'), he does not believe that they are truly messangers of God (with the obvious exception of Jesus) or that the Koran is divinely inspired because to do so would be to renounce his Catholicism. Using 'we' in this sentance implies that he is a convert to Islam, making his odious message easier to swallow for his audience.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:22 / 04.08.05
Galloway's lapse in logic paints Zarqawi, a murderer and terrorist following a heretical interpretation of the Koran, as being morally superior to a country that, for all the evil it has committed over the years, deposed a dictator and allowed a nation of twenty-six million to elect its own government.

So I'm really not a Galloway fan, but I have to take issue with that and point out that the US also appears to have attempted to influence the Iraqi elections despite George W. Bush's stated objection to such interference (it's alarming to think that even the President isn't in control of the administration, though I suppose it wouldn't be the first time); that the US may have helped installed Saddam Hussein as ruler in the first place (more), and certainly supported him during and after the Iran-Iraq war. In other words, when he was useful it didn't matter that he was a monster. (Summary with music - Flash.)

Galloway's just plain weird. But the suggestion that the US was jus' doin' good out there is hard for me to swallow. Along with the UK, the US was elbow deep in Iraq and getting plenty of return on its investment until recently. Given that Hussein was a secular leader, I don't find it implausible that, had he not invaded Kuwait, he'd now be one of our chief allies in the region. It doesn't wipe out the fact that we put him there and supported him that we've now turned around and removed him. You can't say "oh, well, that was twenty years ago and it's all different now" and expect that to clear the debt we owe.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:26 / 04.08.05
But of course! 'The doctrine of change of course', which Noam Chomsky describes as "Well, yes, in the past we did various unpleasant things out of inadvertence or inattention, but now we are changing course, so we can put all that stale boring stuff behind us, forget about it, forget the fact that we suppressed it or denied it when it was taking placing, and march on to a glorious future..."

I find all that "daughters" stuff fairly risible, and am not sure that it's just a question of rhetorical flourishes. However, it's much less risible stuff than what is trotted out by apologists for current US imperialism (a suspicious number of whom now preface their apologism by stating that they "opposed" the war at the time), those who attempt to sound the voice of moderation whilst buying 100% into the neo-con ideology of exporting "democracy" through violence on a massive scale, and would sweep aside 20, 000 or more dead as the sad but necessary cost of "freedom".

Muslim's in Afghanistan and Iraq have been able to practice their faith with the same freedom after the wars as they have before the wars...

Apart from all the ones who are dead, of course.

The only threat to Iraqi families comes from reprisals against the insurgency, which would end, like the whole occupation would end, if dissafected Iraqis adopted peaceful means for change instead of pointless violence.

The occupation would end if the people who are being occupied laid down their arms! Of course! Well done, Phex, for being so noble as to advocate such a peaceful solution! What a strange place your head must be, in which an invading and occupying power only makes "reprisals", and poses no threat to the people of the place it occupies.

You say Galloway "glorifies killers" and that "Hatred, on both sides, can only arise when you whitewash your own sides' atrocities". Why then are you doing both these things in this thread, Phex?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
17:26 / 04.08.05
You say Galloway "glorifies killers" and that "Hatred, on both sides, can only arise when you whitewash your own sides' atrocities". Why then are you doing both these things in this thread, Phex?

When exactly? Which killers? The Americans waging an illegal war? The Mujahadeen killing indiscriminately for a warped ideology that has no place in the modern world? Let me make myself very, very clear: I don't believe that *either* force in this conflict acts morally, their reasons for fighting are wrong and their methods of fighting are wrong. The world is not black and white, the fact I don't agree with the Iraqi resistance's aims and methods does not mean that I 'agree 100% with the neo-con agenda'. or that I believe that democracy can be exported.

The occupation would end if the people who are being occupied laid down their arms! Of course! Well done, Phex, for being so noble as to advocate such a peaceful solution! What a strange place your head must be, in which an invading and occupying power only makes "reprisals", and poses no threat to the people of the place it occupies.

Wars require two or more forces to be engaged in armed conflict. If there was no Iraqi resistance there would be no need to maintain a costly, morale draining occupation. That's common sense. However, it is incredibly naiave to assume that once America leaves those Mujahadeen fighting in Iraq are going to lay down their weapons. If they were truly freedom fighters opposing a foreign occupation then they wouldn't be attacking Iraqi civilians or members of civilian aid agencies like the Red Cross, and so far they've killed far more Iraqis than they have Americans. They're attacking an ideology, embodied most visibly by America, but also by anyone who doesn't share their intrepretation of the Koran.
Furthermore, what threat do the occupying forces pose to Iraqi civilians, apart from a) actual attacks on training camps etc. in which there may be civilian casualties and b) when the U.S Army's oxymoronic intelligence incorrectly identifies civilian targets as being terrorists? Both are direct consequences of there being a resistance. It is not U.S foreign policy to kill Iraqis for a laugh.
Also, if you feel the need to condescend me for suggesting that both sides find a peaceful solution (which will never happen, true, but would be the ideal situation) then please tell me what your plan would be? More bombings? Maybe they could cut the heads off some civilian aid workers and broadcast it all over the internet? I mean, that's had some great results so far right? Maybe the Americans could get some better intelligence by stripping Iraqi captives naked and arranging them in pyramids? What do you offer in place of a peaceful solution as an ideal outcome to this situation?
 
 
w1rebaby
17:55 / 04.08.05
I think you are being a little disingenuous, or possibly just incorrect, there; the vast majority of attacks by the "insurgency" in Iraq are on US troops and other non-civilian targets. About 4% of attacks cause civilian casualties according to the CSIS, which is not exactly a partisan body. The idea that all that's happening in Iraq is that Zarqawi is beheading truck drivers and bombing markets just isn't true.

And if you're asking what direct physical threat the occupation forces present to Iraqis, excluding when they kill them deliberately (because they are resisting, or because they are thought to be resisting, or because they are thought to be aiding and abetting resistance) or accidentally during the course of trying to suppress resistance or police the country then, yeah, not all that much threat; it's mostly going to fall into one of those categories, at least if you argue it right. But that's not a terribly helpful statement to make.

I would argue with several other things you've said but I don't really want to turn this into a generalised argument about Iraq, given that it's got a topic already... the point here that I would like to make is that I'd consider Galloway's characterisation of insurgents in Iraq as heroic resistance fighters to be more accurate overall than the Western media's frequent characterisation of them as fanatical factionalised fundamentalists and the Western troops as heroic champions of freedom and democracy. Neither describes the whole situation accurately, certainly, but Galloway's version has more validity than Blair's.
 
 
grime
20:54 / 04.08.05
soooo . . . is there really any point in arguing which innacurate, biased and overly-simplified viewpoint is better?

anyone who actually believes that the insurgents are heroic freedom fighters or that the americans are glorious liberators is living in a fantasy world. and people who make inflamatory speeches are just trying to convince people that these fantasy worlds actually exist.

why can't people make passionate, persuasive speeches about just being reasonable?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
22:18 / 04.08.05
Exactly grime.
Fridgemagnet - while I appreciate the points you made in the first paragraph, and I concede that there were factual errors in my posts, the second two weren't exactly persuasive.
In the second paragraph you say what I have already said: that Iraqis are getting killed because Americans are ham-fistedly trying to stop the resistance. The next logical step is: No resistance = no more killing of Iraqis by Americans, the coalition has no reason to spend vast amounts of money maintaining the occupation and they leave. Everybody wins. The fact that the resistance is still fighting, making all Iraqis targets regardless of whether they agree with the insurgents or not, shows that they don't have Iraq's best interests at heart, cannot claim moral superiority over America, and should not be glorified by people like Galloway.
And the third, as grime has already said, is hollow because both Blair and Galloway have agendas, and there is more to the debate about the Iraq war than their opinions. In his speech Galloway said things that were innacurate and irresponsible, so does Blair and Bush and Ann Coulter and Michael Moore and everybody else who makes a living persuading others to think the way they do. People, on this board and elsewhere, should be able to elevate their discourse above these bottom-feeders and see for themselves the facts and morality of this situation.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:53 / 04.08.05
...Iraqis are getting killed because Americans are ham-fistedly trying to stop the resistance. The next logical step is: No resistance = no more killing of Iraqis by Americans, the coalition has no reason to spend vast amounts of money maintaining the occupation and they leave. The fact that the resistance is still fighting, making all Iraqis targets regardless of whether they agree with the insurgents or not, shows that they don't have Iraq's best interests at heart, cannot claim moral superiority over America, and should not be glorified by people like Galloway.

I am against violence in almost any situation and I see no reason to glorify the resistance, insurgence or whatever you want to call it in Iraq. But you must have an inkling of the lopsidedness of your comments when you say that the onus is on an invaded country, in the face of an occupation, to desist from violence. Any reasonable analysis would conclude that the agressor, the invader, should really be the one to withdraw. I have a hard time seeing that as anything but elementary, to be honest, and I wonder yet again at the power of propoganda.
 
 
Char Aina
22:59 / 04.08.05
i dont get it.
if someone invades a country, i dont see how you can expect the people of that country to accept that willingly, and i feel that to blame the continued occupation on the resistance to that occupation seems to me to be blaming the victim somewhat.
could you explain to me how you justify suggesting that the invaded should just lie back and take the invasion?
perhaps in a PM, if this thread is getting too far off track?
 
 
robertrosen
00:05 / 05.08.05
The WAR is with Terrorism. Iraq is a tool. Geography and resource are key control strategy. Survival is the long-term goal and core human motivation. Two birds with one stone ignorant Bush Revenge strategy.

Life is sacred and war is evil. This particular form of Terrorism is not isolated by country but is part of a religious ideology. Traditional war, besides being barbaric, is inefficient here. Ideology must be battled with ideology. If we continue this war in the traditional sense, we will either lose or it will escalate.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
09:59 / 05.08.05
I know this is getting a little off track so I'll be as brief as possible.
If every person in Iraq taking up arms against the coalition forces was killed or spontaeneously decided to stop fighting then the occupation would end very shortly after. That's a pretty reasonable assumption to make. The war is costing billions, 1800 U.S servicemen have died, and support for the war is down to 38%, so there's every reason to pull out once, as GW Bush puts it, 'the job is done' (i.e, the resistance is reduced to a level that can be managed by Iraq's own security forces).
The reason I put the onus on the resistance to lay down arms first, and feel free to debate this in this thread or by PM, is because, however flawed Iraq's liberation was the current form of government is far superior to Saddam's regime. For the resistance to be defined as a Just War, which Galloway and it seems many of you think it is, it has to be the only option available. If Iraq had gone from being a Democracy to a Dictatorship then this would be the case, but instead it has transitioned from an inferior to superior form of government which has other means to effect change apart from violence, the ballot box instead of the roadside bomb. Granted the current Iraqi administration has many grave flaws, but it's not about to use nerve gas on it's own citizens, pay the families of suicide bombers or torture the Iraqi football team for not winning the world cup.
 
 
Not Here Still
10:20 / 05.08.05
Galloway was on the Today programme this morning. This is a Guardian story on his comments,

but you should be able to listen to the interview too from the Today website

I'm no fan of Galloway, who is too self-regarding for my tastes.

I also feel his bombastic manner of speaking diminishes his message somewhat and allows people to dismiss what he is saying too easily.

Basically, I find myself more often having issues with the style, rather content, of a Galloway speech.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:27 / 05.08.05
If every person in Iraq taking up arms against the coalition forces was killed or spontaeneously decided to stop fighting then the occupation would end very shortly after.

I very much doubt that; based on past example and present sabre-rattling it seems certain that the US will maintain a military presence as long as it is able to, though obviously not such a sizeable one.

it's not about to use nerve gas on it's own citizens, pay the families of suicide bombers or torture the Iraqi football team for not winning the world cup

It'll allow entire cities to be attacked, residential areas to be cluster-bombed, death squads to be used to silence political opponents, and the children of assorted prisoners to be raped in front of their parents though (and that's just the stuff we've heard about).

You seem to have a somewhat romanticised vision of the current state of government in Iraq - that the opportunity to vote for one of two faction-linked, hidden election lists selected in consultation with an occupying power constitutes democracy, for a start, or that a government already constrained to allow its economic resources to be siphoned off by Western corporations is something Iraqis would be happy with - and, regardless of this, it appears that a sizeable proportion of the people who actually live in Iraq disagree with you. And you'd think they'd know what they were talking about.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:41 / 05.08.05
The problem when trying to discuss what Galloway says, the way he says it, and the reaction it generates is that some of the things he says are plain statements of fact which generate more outrage than the things he says which are more dubious - eg:

Tony Blair and George Bush have "far more blood on their hands" than the terrorists who carried out the London tube bombings, George Galloway said today.


This is simple fact, and anyone who claims otherwise or contests this is a liar.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:41 / 05.08.05
(Or else ill-informed, but surely at this stage we must conclude that they are wilfully ill-informed?)
 
 
Not Here Still
11:02 / 05.08.05
OPB Flyboy:

The problem when trying to discuss what Galloway says, the way he says it, and the reaction it generates is that some of the things he says are plain statements of fact which generate more outrage than the things he says which are more dubious.

I agree, and some of the outrage he attracts comes from the fact he's saying things people don't want to hear.

But I still can't help feeling that some of the more dubious flourishes with which he surrounds such statements help them to be dismissed more easily than if a different tone were taken.

It's Galloway's choice to speak in the way he does, but the manner in which he speaks can allow people to discount his speeches as a whole and ignore everything he says.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:30 / 05.08.05
True to a certain extent, but a) some of those people are going to hold entrenched points of view that will lead them to dismiss it all anyway - Chomsky, who often writes or speaks in a much plainer, more reasonable style, is often treated as if he wrote or spoke in the same way as Galloway; b) others may actually find Galloway's rhetoric compelling - for better or for worse (where better = because he doesn't mince his words or grant Blair etc the respect politicians and commentators are supposed to afford 'our' democratically-elected prime minister, and because he's not an equivocating moral relativist who's afraid to call mass murder mass murder; and worse = because his sort of rousing, almost Churchillian "death or glory" stuff gets people's blood fired up).
 
 
Not Here Still
11:35 / 05.08.05
Chomsky, who often writes or speaks in a much plainer, more reasonable style, is often treated as if he wrote or spoke in the same way as Galloway

Have to say that I haven't seen as much dismissal of Chomsky's views as I have of Galloway's.

That said, Chomsky gets much less coverage than Galloway does - and perhaps that, in itself, tells us something...
 
 
Atyeo
11:39 / 05.08.05
After listening to that Today interview I must say that I found Liam Fox alot more offensive as he personally attacked Galloway and didn't actually answer any question given to him.

I think the problwm with Galloway is that he does present a black and white picture of the world in the same way that Bush or Blair does. Now I consider Galloway's views more close to reality than Bush et. al. but I wish that he'd take a more measured approach. I personally find the considered and controlled views of Tony Benn, closer to reality and less aggressive.

Flyboy, the problem with that statement is that even though it is factually correct it has to be taken, like everything else in the world, in context. In this particular example, I generally agree with Galloway but nothing is that simple.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:39 / 05.08.05
Maybe I read too many pieces by right-wing and/or pro-war liberal commentators...

Well, you know, one is too many on some level, but still.
 
 
Not Here Still
11:46 / 05.08.05
One is never enough, Fly. Know your enemy and all that...

Out of interest, I Google News-ed "Noam Chomsky" and "George Galloway"; 170 for Chomsky, 925! for Galloway.

And though Galloway, in the main, gets it far worse, one Chomsky piece is horrendously nasty.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:07 / 05.08.05
Flyboy, the problem with that statement is that even though it is factually correct it has to be taken, like everything else in the world, in context.

How does context change that particular fact?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:17 / 05.08.05
Statements such as "it has to be taken into context", "it's not that simple" and "it's not black and white" are meaningless platitudes unless accompanied by some kind of specification as to what is actually being said.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:32 / 05.08.05
One is never enough because the Left is going to distort the facts just as much as the Right.

Flyboy: (Galloway is) not an equivocating moral relativist who's afraid to call mass murder mass murder

Galloway: They are the young men and the young women who decided, whatever their feelings about the former regime... when the foreign invaders came, to defend their country, to defend their honor, to defend their families, their religion, their way of life from a military superpower

They are also mass murderers or prepared to be, and Galloway has never addressed this. The fact that they don't have as much blood on their hands as Bush and Blair isn't representative of their moral superiority but of their military inferiority; they haven't killed as many people as the coalition because they can't not because they wouldn't. We shouldn't count the number of bodies to decide on who is right but instead take account of methods, means and motivations, if we did so I believe we would see the the occupying forces and those resisting them are (im)moral equals.
 
 
Atyeo
12:36 / 05.08.05
Would you suggest that the man who filled the Enola Gay with petrol has more blood on his hands than Bush? You could easily argue that that is a fact.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:43 / 05.08.05
Phex - could you possibly clarify why torturing the Iraqi football team is worse than torturing people picked up off the street without evidence that they are, in fact, guilty? Cheers.

Incidentally, I think there's a basic problem in your methodology. If one posits that, if the insurgent forces operating in Iraq were as well-armed and had the same level of destructive power as the US forces then their bodycount would be far higher, one must also reflect that, if the etc were as etc, the US forces would not be there. This seems to me to make the comparison rather pointless. Combine this with your innocence of the facts contradicting your assertions so far, and I'm wondering whether a bit of reading might be more useful than parallel world-building...
 
  

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