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This from PETA, currently travelling around the USA in the back of my van

 
  

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Naked Flame
15:10 / 01.08.05
Hi folks,

I'm travelling round the US at the moment with this massive exhibit from PETA. Have a peek:

Click here

We're doing 40-odd cities in 10 weeks, and we're getting some really interesting reactions. What does the Barbelith groupmind think of this- as activism, as a concept, even as graphic design? Your thoughts....
 
 
Ariadne
15:19 / 01.08.05
Well, I like it - both the message and the look of the site. It's really well done.
I'd be very interested in what reactions, though, as I can see it sparking some fury.
What have people said so far?
 
 
Char Aina
15:30 / 01.08.05
i agree with the message as i understand it; that we are treating animals as badly as we have treated certain less powerful sections of humanity.
i believe cruelty is cruelty, an idea that seems to run through the piece.
one worry, i guess, would be that you might alienate non-vegetarians who may see this in terms of race.
that said, i think they would have to be trying to.
 
 
Ariadne
15:32 / 01.08.05
Yes, I did worry about that, too - but hoped the fact it had oppression of women in there too would lessen people's tendency, or ability, to make that accusation.
 
 
Naked Flame
16:02 / 01.08.05
Broadly, the reactions have been really positive. I mean, I'm used to doing PETA demos where I come disguised as a fish, and those seem to generate way more hostility.We have had some hostility around the race issue- primarily from white people. Which is kind of curious.

The first leg of the tour took us around the Deep South, to such places as the 16th St Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama - where the executive director of the Civil Rights Institute came out to say 'thanks': but at the same location we got a ton of verbal from a (white) Unitarian volunteer who felt we were 'appropriating' the human images. And then there's a wide cross-section of (99% white) Christians who have been taking offence at the assertion of the equivalency of human and animal suffering. Amongst black viewers of the display, hostile reactions few and far between and are centred around how painful the images are to look at, rather than whether or not we have a point.

It's curious- and a little off topic- to compare reactions to the 'Holocaust On Your Plate' demo which toured 18 months ago and did basically the same thing, except with Holocaust victims, and generated some seeeeerious outrage.

Well, we'll see what the North-East makes of it in the next couple of weeks!
 
 
Slim
00:49 / 02.08.05
I think the display is a great example of why PETA is viewed as a joke to most people to the right of Noam Chomsky.

I'm not disgusted by the exhibit but I don't agree with the message of moral equivalency. Fortunately, it's a step up from the embarrassing Holocaust comparison not long ago.

I like the design and setup of the site. Very nicely done.
 
 
Loomis
07:46 / 02.08.05
I think it's fine. Doesn't seem contentious at all to me but then I'm already converted.

I'd say these images are probably a little less contentious than some previous PETA campaigns so I don't think you'll get as much stick as you may have on other demos.
 
 
w1rebaby
08:53 / 02.08.05
The layout & content of the site pages is fine but the web designer in me is screaming "NO! NOT ANOTHER MASSIVE FLASH-ONLY SITE THAT HAS NO NEED TO BE AT ALL!" You can do everything there with just straight HTML and images and it'd be much smaller, more linkable and more accessible - what you've got there takes a noticeable time to load even on broadband.

As for the content and message... well, it seems to be assuming straight equivalency between humans and animals. The correspondence between the treatment of humans and the treatment of animals doesn't really make sense if you don't accept that; somebody can just respond "but that's a human on the left and an animal on the right, they're not the same". I suppose doing it as a roadshow might be more effective than a site because you'd have an opportunity to discuss it and use other materials.
 
 
Loomis
09:15 / 02.08.05
I'm not convinced that the ad necessitates an exact equivalence between animals and humans. It's making a broad point, showing you the similarities in treatment to encourage you to make the connection. You could still conclude from these images that you would like to improve the situation of animals without necessarily giving them the right to vote.

I find it quite common that people who don't want to have to think about issues of animal welfare hide behind an accusation that animal rights campaigners want animals to be treated exactly the same as humans.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:29 / 02.08.05
But Loomis, doesn't that make you think that PETAs tactics are way off? I think there is always a tension in these things between convincing the unconverted that you are right and invigorating your own supporters with a bold campaign. On the whole, I think that this campaign tends toward the latter at the expense of the former.
 
 
Loomis
09:45 / 02.08.05
Lurid - In general I agree that animal rights campaigners should work from common ground and lead the viewer gently towards the desired conclusion. But that's mroe my personal preference; there will be just as many people out there who will respond to shock tactics who wouldn't respond to a more careful approach. Whichever way you go, you will always miss some people.

However, I think it is very important to recognise that there is an unfounded meme in society that animal rights activists are all nutters and this is usually not based on any evidence. Sure there have been some confronting campaigns, but I've met so many people who shut their ears to the concept because they take issues with supposedly extreme campaigns that they have not actually witnessed in any form.

When I first got into vegan issues I sympathised when people mentioned thatthey had been turned off by hardcore activists, but the more people I speak to, the more anger I discover at the very concept of animal rights, which has not grown from the types of campaigns being run, but by the implied criticism that eating meat, wearing leather, etc. is wrong. In my experience the vast majority of people who blame shocking campaigns forthe fact that they aren't listening to the issues are using it as an excuse.

Any campaign that highlights animal exploitation is basically telling the viewer that they are doing something morally wrong, and most people take offence at that, regardless of how the ad itself is designed.
 
 
w1rebaby
09:51 / 02.08.05
I'm not convinced that the ad necessitates an exact equivalence between animals and humans.

I should have stuck to my original wording, which was "straight moral equivalency" rather than assuming that chickens are little feathery people - not sure how that one fell out. I still don't think it makes any actual case for that position though.

It's making a broad point, showing you the similarities in treatment to encourage you to make the connection. You could still conclude from these images that you would like to improve the situation of animals without necessarily giving them the right to vote.

The effectiveness of the juxtaposition in the first place relies on the viewer seeing some correspondence between humans and animals - otherwise, why have it at all? It's not making a general point that animals suffer and that's bad, it's explicitly comparing that suffering to human suffering, and it's on a very one-to-one level (black men being hung up vs cow being hung up, same size).

That's fine if that's the message that's trying to be got across, but what I'm saying is that there is an assumption behind it which I don't think it is justified to assume that the viewer is going to share.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:06 / 02.08.05
I have a gut-feeling type of disagreement with what you say about shock tactics. I'm not sure I can back it up, but I don't feel that it is a very effective way to convince people. As I said earlier, I think that shock tactics are rather more about boosting the morale of the troops.

So while I think you are more or less right when you say that,

Any campaign that highlights animal exploitation is basically telling the viewer that they are doing something morally wrong, and most people take offence at that, regardless of how the ad itself is designed.

I also think that it is possible to find an awful lot of material about animal treatment that would shock the uninformed. This would, I reckon, be a much more effective way to make people think about animals. What it won't do, however, is make a case for animal rights in a strong, rather than minimal, sense.

Maybe I am just expressing my own preferences and opinion that it is rather tricky to make an *abstract* moral case against the eating of animals, and so you shouldn't really do so in an inevitably simplifying campaign.
 
 
Loomis
10:26 / 02.08.05
I also think that it is possible to find an awful lot of material about animal treatment that would shock the uninformed. This would, I reckon, be a much more effective way to make people think about animals. What it won't do, however, is make a case for animal rights in a strong, rather than minimal, sense.

Perhaps the question we should be asking is: what good would that result be? How much difference would it make?

Pointing out that animals are treated badly often has the result that the person will agree with you, express a hope that the govt would tighten up animal abuse laws, and on they go. This result is fairly pointless. Unless you change someone's fundamental belief that it is okay for humans to exploit animals then you aren't really achieving much. The aim imho is to make people realise that they should take action themselves, by stopping their consumption of animal products (either permanently, or at least until such regulations are in place), or by lobbying the govt to make these laws, or by altering their purchasing in some way. To do something. Running a campaign merely to get people to agree that animal abuse is wrong is fairly pointless.
 
 
Loomis
10:39 / 02.08.05
It's not making a general point that animals suffer and that's bad, it's explicitly comparing that suffering to human suffering, and it's on a very one-to-one level (black men being hung up vs cow being hung up, same size).

Hmm. I don't think the images can be reduced to such a fine point, unless one wants to be purposely dismissive. Yes, the first thing you see is that direct equivalence by their choice of photos showing animals and humans in an almost mirrored position. But I don't think the thought process of the viewer is as simple as "Hmm, this ad says that animal slavery is the same as human slavery. I disagree with this direct equivalence therefore I will dismiss the entire idea that anything should be done about the situation."

Images like this are emotional. And as I said above, the point is not simply that animals are being abused. The reason they are bein abused is because of the fundamental belief that they are our property, and have no feelings as we do. The juxtapositions direct our emotions to feel the injustice on a more personal level, to open our eyes to the fact that there just might be a closer link between humans and animals than we had previously thought. It's meant to be arresting and thought-provoking.

I'm wary of calls to tone down campaigns for animal rights (or indeed any other cause). Sparing the blushes of society does more to maintain the status quo than it does to spread the message. And I should think it's quite common pratice to aim higher than you hope to achieve. In any ideological argument you are unlikely to convince anyone of your complete point of view (particularly on the first attempt). What is more likely is that they might come half-way to where you are, so the higher you raise the bar, the closer they are going to come to your position.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:10 / 02.08.05
Running a campaign merely to get people to agree that animal abuse is wrong is fairly pointless.

I very much disagree with your response. Getting people to agree that animal abuse is wrong and confronting them with the fact that it is going on, with an aim to change things, is not pointless. (I'm not sure why you assume that concentrating on animal abuse means one has to commit to not doing anything concrete.) You concede that this is an argument that is actually relatively easy to win, and conclude that therefore we shouldn't be making it.

That just sounds wrong headed to me. I feel no duty to spare societies sensibilities in this case (I think you are right here), but equally, neither do I feel that the mark of a good campaign is how shocking it is. The goal, surely, has to be to reduce animal suffering and my general point here is that I think that PETA sometimes lets the best be the enemy of the good. Sure, reducing the obscene cruelty of factory farming is the *least* we can do for animals, but that doesn't mean that such a modest goal is unworthy of attention.

And I should think it's quite common pratice to aim higher than you hope to achieve.
...
What is more likely is that they might come half-way to where you are, so the higher you raise the bar, the closer they are going to come to your position.


I am deeply suspicious of this line of reasoning. "Higher" tends to mean "more strident" or something, and I'm just not sure things work like that.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:15 / 02.08.05
Sorry Loomis, I just had to make one more point...

But I don't think the thought process of the viewer is as simple as "Hmm, this ad says that animal slavery is the same as human slavery. I disagree with this direct equivalence therefore I will dismiss the entire idea that anything should be done about the situation."

Are you sure? Because it seemed to me that that is pretty much what Slim says above, claiming that this is a predictable reaction for anyone "to the right of Chomsky". I'm not saying they are right, but your reductio doesn't work if you are describing someone's actual reaction.
 
 
Loomis
11:25 / 02.08.05
You concede that this is an argument that is actually relatively easy to win, and conclude that therefore we shouldn't be making it.

. . .

Sure, reducing the obscene cruelty of factory farming is the *least* we can do for animals, but that doesn't mean that such a modest goal is unworthy of attention.


I'm not sure if I was clear on this point. I certainly think that animal cruelty should be stopped, regardless of whether one chooses to go all the way towards vegetarianism or whatever. What I mean is that I don't see how it is an argument in need of "winning." Does anyone actually think that factory farming is ok? Everyone I know thinks that it is abhorrent but they don't do anything about it. I think it's a fairly uncontentious point that doesn't need arguing so much as it needs action.

It should also be kept in mind that PETA and others do campaign against animal abuse in a whole variety of ways, from the general to the specific. In fact I would say the majority of their campaigns are aimed at achieving specific actions against specific companies. This is only one ad campaign out of many. Maintaining the old cliche about PETA doing more harm than good that I hear so often seems to ignore the vast amount of work they and others do that is not shocking, not abstract, and not alienating in the slightest.
 
 
Loomis
11:36 / 02.08.05
Are you sure? Because it seemed to me that that is pretty much what Slim says above, claiming that this is a predictable reaction for anyone "to the right of Chomsky".

Let's be honest. You can't convert someone who doesn't want to be converted. If someone doesn't want to give up eating meat, or to insist on only buying animals that have been humanely raised and slaughtered, or whatever, then you're not going to change their mind no matter what you show them.

As I said earlier, I have encountered so many people who object to any stance on animal rights because they feel an implied criticism. They then fall back on claims such as "If PETA wasn't so extreme thay might get more results." This is just a smokescreen in my opinion. It doesn't excuse the individual from facing the issues. Regardless of what one thinks of PETA (and I have encountered many veges who dislike them), once you've seen evidence of animal abuse then it's up to you to make a decision on your own action. This particular campaign is more abstract, as you say, but PETA and others have many far more approachable advertisements, fact sheets, articles and information that cannot be dismissed with a vague claim about shocking tactics.

Criticising PETA is a red herring that people use to shift the focus away from themselves. Shooting the messenger so as not to hear the message. My question to anyone who wants to make PETA the issue is "So do you deny the images and information about factory farming? And if not, what are you doing about it?"
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:43 / 02.08.05
I'm a little unclear as to what being "to the right of Chomsky" has to do with one's views on whether human and animal suffering are of comparable importance.
 
 
skolld
13:45 / 02.08.05
I find it quite common that people who don't want to have to think about issues of animal welfare hide behind an accusation that animal rights campaigners want animals to be treated exactly the same as humans.

people think it because that's exactly what the add campaigns want you to think.
I personally don't like PETA's approach with these adds. On an artistic level i think they suck. It is nothing but shock art. It is in fact a one to one comparison, You keep saying that it's more, but it really isn't i'm afraid. This add says to me 'animal suffering is equal to human suffering', which is fine if that's the statement you want to make but i doubt anyone's going to change their opinion based on any of this.
If anything it reinforces the stereotype that PETA is an elitist group of middle to upperclass rich kids that don't really understand anything about 'human' suffering.
I personally rank PETA about on notch above anti-abortion bombers, and i assure you it isn't because i'm uninformed. I feel they are entirely misguided, If they really want to make an impact they should feed people, I'm serious, you want to impress me, make vegetarian food affordable, make it so people can and want to buy it. most people eat meat because they can afford it not because they don't care about animals. Being Vegan is way too expensive for your average person, but that's probably getting a bit off topic
 
 
Loomis
14:05 / 02.08.05
you want to impress me, make vegetarian food affordable, make it so people can and want to buy it. most people eat meat because they can afford it not because they don't care about animals. Being Vegan is way too expensive for your average person, but that's probably getting a bit off topic

Well that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today. Have you been to a supermarket lately? Meat is easily more expensive than vegetables, beans, grains, etc. Could you please provide some justification for your assertions?
 
 
Char Aina
14:31 / 02.08.05
...and if you go to a decent grocers, it's even cheaper.
i spend way less than my omnivourous brother on food.
i find the only time veggie food can be more expensive is when you buy quorn and the like.
one of the great lies of the modern supermarket is that ready meals and convenience food are cheap and easy.
they are not cheap and they are only slightly easier.
check out the PETA site for a veggie starter kit if you are interested in cooking cheap veggie food, something i would reccomend as a decent string to the bow of even the most devoted carnivore.
i think its a good idea to eat well whether you eat meat or not and its simple to boost your skill in preparing interesting and healthy food.
google a homemade pizza recipe for starters, ma,king sure it includes making the dough.


apologies for the slight tangent;
i am a food fundamentalist.
 
 
Brunner
14:45 / 02.08.05
...most people eat meat because they can afford it...

Maybe I'm taking this comment to its extreme but most people I know eat meat because, obviously, as kids they learn that meat (among other things) is food and food means you don't starve to death. Essentially a life preserving habit. Then, when they become old enough to make their own decisions with regard to what they eat, many people just stick to what they learn off their parents and never change due to apathy. I've met people who simply do not care about animal welfare (and/or rights) and perhaps, even more surprisingly, they don't care about the quality of what they shove down their throats. Others continue to believe that not eating meat results in anaemia or some kind of protein deficiency. Others "have" to eat meat because they have been conditioned or have conditioned themselves to "hate" fruit and/or vegetables. People believe all sorts of crap in order to justify not moving from their own stance.

Although I think they could have been a bit more subtle, for me, this PETA campaign is essentially confronting the fact that many people are just so darned apathetic about things that they don't see as concerning them unless somthing tips them over the edge. Therefore, it's easy for someone to say its not nice to factory farm pigs/chickens/cows etc but if say, these practices were outlawed in favour of organic methods, well, you just watch them all moan about the prices, "Bring back veal crates" etc....
 
 
skolld
14:50 / 02.08.05
I don't see why it would be rediculous.
I live in the States. If you go to Kroger you can buy a gallon of milk for @ 2 USD, soy milk for a smaller amount is around 3 or more dollars. Any 'substitute' meat product is always more.
Now i understand if you don't want to substitute things and you're just eating, beans, rice, fruits and such then it could be comparable, but you add in organic farming and the price goes up as well. If you are from a middle class family then i would say the price variance is less noticable, but lower down it's quite apparent, and i would think, i'm not certain on the numbers, that a great deal of the cheaply produced meats are consumed by that brackett of the population.
i personally like a balanced diet but i'm a student, and when i'm strapped for cash its fish sticks and ramen noodles. Plus you have to educate people on how to eat properly, whay i'm saying is put the money it costs to make crappy moralistic adds into educational avenues and the results would be much greater. People have to want to do it, and they have to know how to do it. Just telling people its bad won't do anything.
 
 
skolld
15:00 / 02.08.05
Maybe I'm taking this comment to its extreme but most people I know eat meat because, obviously, as kids they learn that meat (among other things) is food and food means you don't starve to death.

Brunner, i would definitely concede to that point, Habit is a huge part of why we're so reliant on meat.

Of course i do wonder, if everyone stops eating meat then won't all of those cows and pigs we're so worried about just go extinct? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it seems like a valid question.
(note: I am not making the argument that we should eat meat so that animals don't go extinct)
 
 
ibis the being
15:01 / 02.08.05
I agree with the basic concept that humans have a moral obligation to treat animals humanely and to preserve animal species whenever possible. However, I am a meat-eater, and I say so not to get into that discussion (here & now) but just to show that I'm not a target for any "rallying the base."

Speaking perhaps more as an artist than a reacting member of the public, I think some of the images work better than others here. To take "Burned Alive" as an example, the cruelty of burning hens alive seems fairly incontrovertible. There's no good reason I can think of to subject a human or animal to such a fate. "Beaten" and "Enslaved" seem to work just as well. You'd be hard-pressed, in this day and age, to find someone who defends clubbing baby seals - and yet, the comparison to human suffering takes it a step further in terms of moral condemnation, and thus still makes an impact as a message.

"Hanging," "Cargo," and "Forced Labor," are more problematic. I think we all recognize these as parts of the meatpacking process, and immediately all sorts of questions arise about whether these are necessary evils, whether humans are meant to be omnivores at the top of the food chain, whether violations condemn the whole industry, etc. While it's true that you want a piece of propanganda (which word I use without negative connotations) to be thought-provoking, I'd argue that you don't want it to be thought-provoking in the sense that it drums up a whole slew of counterarguments.

"Exploitation" is another really fuzzy one, though in a slightly different way. Treating a human being as an entertaining 'trained' animal based on skin color - revolting. So then you show us a sad-looking monkey... it's just not translating. There are trained animals who enjoy human attention and for whom the training and "tricks" are enjoyable and a form of exercise - dogs rather obviously come to mind. Circus animals have been treated very badly, many of us know, but this is not clearly an image from the circus if indeed that's what it's meant to show. It's not entirely without meaning, but it's weak.

Propaganda can be shocking, but ideally it doesn't point to the flaws in its own message. I think PETA's undermined itself here - think how much stronger the campaign would be with the weaker images removed.
 
 
Char Aina
15:20 / 02.08.05
Plus you have to educate people on how to eat properly, whay i'm saying is put the money it costs to make crappy moralistic adds into educational avenues and the results would be much greater. People have to want to do it, and they have to know how to do it. Just telling people its bad won't do anything.

they spend money on both
some more PETA sponsored food tips


if everyone stops eating meat then won't all of those cows and pigs we're so worried about just go extinct?

i doubt that they would.
they would not be so ubiquitous, sure.
even if there were no omnivorous humans left(which i believe will not happen for a long time, if ever) i feel that we would keep them alive as examples for future generations.
on the flipside, what do you feel would be so bad about them going extinct? far more exciting, interesting and intelligent species go extinct all the time and little notice is taken.
personally i am nowhere near as concerned about extinction; apart from being highly unlikely, its not really the loss of the species i care about, it's suffering of the being.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:20 / 02.08.05
I'm a little unclear as to what being "to the right of Chomsky" has to do with one's views on whether human and animal suffering are of comparable importance.

You aren't really unclear, are you Fly? Its about distancing oneself from the loony left who will indulge in asurd moral equivalences which no sane person would countenance. "The US kills more innocents than al qaeda" or "animal suffering is comparable to human suffering" are examples of statements which highlight that kind of parallel. FTR, Chomsky doesn't write about animal rights, but I think I've read a comment to the effect that he thinks the question is worth considering. In some ways, I think Slim is right that the comparison bears some weight.

Loomis: I think you do make good points aout PETA, but I think we disagree on tactics to an extent. So while people generally agree that factory farming is a problem, they usually choose not to think about it. I think campaigns which remind people of it aren't a waste.

You are right that PETA does lots of things and this is just one campaign, but they do have an image problem and I don't think this is just to do with people's reluctance to confront the issue (its definitely a component, though).


As for the expense of eating veggie...we could start a whole thread about it anbd maybe we should, but skolld is mistaken about it, but probably because of meat based eating habits.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:32 / 02.08.05
I think your page doesn't work with my browser.
 
 
skolld
15:33 / 02.08.05
ok, I'm not unreasonable, and i'd like to see the results, so i'll try it.
I'll spend the next week researching and the following two weeks i'll eat vegetarian and see how it goes. My girlfriend has been wanting me to eat more veggies anyway.
Then i'll post the results of how much it cost me, and what i thought of it.
 
 
Loomis
16:59 / 02.08.05
To try and keep this thread on course, I think general discussion of vegetarianism should go in another thread, if anyone wants to discuss that issue further.

I'd like to have a look at the notion of whether an ill-received ad of PETA can actually harm their cause. I don't think it works that way. You'd have to be pretty perverse to want to do something about animal welfare but refrain from doing so because you're offended by PETA's holocaust ad campaign.

And I've already mentioned that I'm not convinced by the line of argument whereby PETA et al would win more converts if they were less shocking. I think that's a fallacy used by those who are against animal rights, and when animal rights supporters use it then for me it’s akin to lefties using terms like political correctness. I'd like to quote Flyboy excellent explanation of why the red mist descends when people use the term "political correctness":

Political correctness is a myth. It is a pejorative term used to give the impression that people who act or speak out against racism, sexism, homophobia, or class snobbery a) have the whip hand, and b) are censorious, unreasonable, petty, extremist killjoys. It is a sophisticated linguistic weapon in the arsenal of newspapers, politicians and other propagandists. Many purported examples of political correctness turn out upon investigation to either be entirely reasonable (unless one favours sexism, racism, etc) or apocryphal.

I feel the same about any statement that implies that animal rights are ignored because those loony activists ruin the message with their extremism. Anyone who knows enough about PETA to criticise their more hardline campaigns also knows the basics about factory farming and other animal abuses. If they choose not do anything about it then that's their choice. But to say that their lack of action is somehow the fault of PETA is a fallacy, proved by the fact that PETA and others, as I have said, run plenty of more constructive and educational campaigns. It’s an excuse and it plays right into the hands of those who don’t want animal abuse curtailed.

The majority of animal rights campaigners, vegans, etc. are constantly having to tiptoe around the issues for fear of seeming critical of a meat-eating culture. We are in the minority, trying to get our voices heard, and when apologists for the dominant ideology move the goalposts to make it seem as though the problem would be closer to a solution if only those krayzee activists would calm down, then I begin to see red.

This is how I see it, to paraphrase Flyboy, “It is a pejorative term used to give the impression that people who act or speak out against animal abuse a) have the whip hand, and b) are censorious, unreasonable, petty, extremist killjoys. It is a sophisticated linguistic weapon in the arsenal of newspapers, politicians and other propagandists. Many purported examples of shocking animal rights campaigns turn out upon investigation to either be entirely reasonable (unless one favours animal abuse) or apocryphal.”
 
 
skolld
17:33 / 02.08.05
personally i am nowhere near as concerned about extinction; apart from being highly unlikely, its not really the loss of the species i care about, it's suffering of the being.

fair enough
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:38 / 02.08.05
I feel the same about any statement that implies that animal rights are ignored because those loony activists ruin the message with their extremism.

But actual loony activists do exist of course. Do you think the ALF, for example, hurt the animal rights cause? I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if their tactics go beyond arson. Plus, they are financially linked to PETA.

I don't know about you, Loomis, but I do tend to find that when I discuss animal rights with "non-believer", I find that PETA and its reputation is a large hurdle to the discussion. However, I'm often surprised at how far you can argue even the most committed meat eater into conceding that the current situation should be changed.
 
 
Slim
21:55 / 02.08.05
In some ways, I think Slim is right that the comparison bears some weight.

Now there's something you don't see every day.
 
  

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