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They can't say that... but THEY DID! The Greenpeace Bush/Blair advert.

 
  

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Phex: Dorset Doom
20:40 / 23.07.05
Probably not safe for work: The new Greenpeace viral advert
Okay, so the politics aren't exactly subtle, but this advert really makes a strong impression, and it's bound to be widely circulated. Any thoughts?
 
 
Liger Null
00:13 / 24.07.05
Wow. That's just wrong...
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
00:24 / 24.07.05
*Sniggers*

"It's funny 'cuz it's true."
 
 
Triplets
00:32 / 24.07.05
Liger, Liger, Liger... Everything goes better with Bushkakke.
 
 
The Falcon
00:33 / 24.07.05
While I'm always a fan of black spunk, I'm sure Flyboy will be along shortly to tell you why this sucks.

The short version is homophobic language, visual or otherwise, describing the 'special relationship' (fnarr) is pretty counterproductive.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
00:45 / 24.07.05
Hmmm... FALCONATOR, I see what you mean about it maybe being counterproductive, but is this ad really, in any way homophobic? The puppet is dressed like a female prostitute and gives Bush a blow-job; the dialogue seems to be one of power and abuse. I can't see how that is offensive unless the viewer is prudish, doesn't like such viral advertising, thinks the ad confuses the issues, is really against prostitution and anything depicting it or other taboo acts, and / or they're a Bush supporter.

I may be waaay wrong, but still: how is it homophobic? Please explain. I am genuinely intrigued by your comment.
 
 
Ganesh
09:48 / 24.07.05
I think it's confused in its message because, although the puppet's dressed in female clothing, it's obviously meant to be Blair, who we know is male. It's difficult to escape the suspicion that the way Blair is portrayed here is intended to amplify the perception of many that he is an object of contempt, the relatively powerless 'bitch' in the Bush/Blair relationship - which, in turn, suggests that those who made the advert feel there's something contemptible about a man dressed in female clothing or a man sucking another man off. This feeds into rather old stereotypical assumptions of the power roles/dynamic of male/male sex - that the ostensibly submissive/fuckee/'female' party is somehow more diminished or worthy of stigma than the ostensibly dominant/fucker/'male' partner.

I'm quite prepared to accept that this was not the intention of those who devised the advert, but it does feed into rather hackneyed tropes of sexual power relations.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
09:58 / 24.07.05
Cheers Ganesh. Fair points, one and all, and as usual you've given me a lot to think about.

Just quickly though, isn't it more (or, I suppose, maybe equally) insulting to transvestites? I think my gut feeling is that while the ad may contribute in a minor way to such negative stereotypes, we may be dangerously close to PC Hell on this one. After all, there probably are men dressed in drag selling themselves to nasty men who talk to them like s**t and both parties get off on it. Pure conjecture of course, and like I typed I'm faaar from sure about this. Hmmm... Time to go away and chew it over... Again, cheers G.
 
 
Ganesh
10:25 / 24.07.05
I think it's confused as to whether the Blair-puppet's meant to be male, female, homosexual, transvestite, whatever. That's part of the problem.
 
 
Benny the Ball
10:36 / 24.07.05
Ngh, what do you expect, it was made by a woman.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
10:50 / 24.07.05
True. But I can equally see how one may interpret that as being in the ad's favour. i.e. it's not necessarily saying "Bush and Blair are big old gays", it's saying they have a "special relationship". Of course, there are obvious (if confusing) sexual overtones, but that could be argued to be strangely fitting in this case.

However, I imagine all this is down to perspective. If you were (say) a homophobic male with a propensity to not think things through, you might guffaw, snigger, and chortle like a confused and nervous teenager; if you were a complete Bush and Blair hater you might just think it was a fitting analogy. Therefore, I guess because of this uncertainty there IS a real problem with this ad; as an (erm) "effective" piece of propaganda it's aim should be to send out a clear message to one and all and not confuse or cloud it with confusing innuendo (For even though I often agree with Greenpeace, this IS propaganda whether I like it or not).

What do you think? Was this what you meant by the confusion over sexuality being part of the problem? Have I just been a div, and simply re-worded what you typed earlier? (seriously / sincerely!)
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
10:51 / 24.07.05
Note: my last post was in response to Ganesh's, of course!
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
11:00 / 24.07.05


While I agree with this on some levels, I do think that the video can be framed in more than one way.

For someone who enjoys dressing up in womens' clothing and giving oral sex to other men, participating in this activity is not degrading, for fairly obvious reasons. However, as far as we know, Mr Tony is a heterosexual Christian who tends to wear traditional male clothing as a matter of course and choice. Moreover, he also portrays himself as a traditional male father/authority figure, both in his capacities as Prime Minister and in relation to his family in the media. Therefore, for _him_ to be seen to be compelled to engage in this activity can be seen as a degrading situation. Furthermore, the nature of the compulsion seems to be that of economic desperation leading to prostitution. Again (although this is a far less clear-cut area), I can conceive of a situation where someone exchanges sexual favours for money entirely by choice for their own reasons. However, again, the Blair-puppet seems to be compelled to behave in a (for the reasons above) degrading manner because he needs "money"/to maintain the "special relationship" can be seen as insulting to Blair himself without necessarily playing on the anti-prostitution*/transvestite/homosexual prejudices of people watching the video. I think the idea is that the video is meant to shock because in it, the Blair-puppet behaves privately, for his own gain, in a way that seems to be directly opposed to everything he stands for in public. Moreover, this is not the crude "oh look, Blair and Bush are up each other's ARSES. That's DISGUSTING and they are BAD"-type rhetoric of certain newspaper cartoons - the "ejaculation" at the end of the video is petrol, from a petrol pump, which shows that this is _not_ a human homosexual coupling: "Bush" is not motivated by a perfectly understandable human sexual desire, but some sort of perverse wish to, er, spray everything with (dirty, polluting) oil in order to demonstrate his masculinity. Finally, it's noteable that the Blair-figure is a _puppet_, and as such does not strictly have gender (although it does of course have _perceived_ gender), but the Bush-figure is a faceless human. Because neither figure in the video is motivated by sexual desire, and a sexual act is not, in fact, performed, it could easily be interpreted as an attack on these leaders because they privately betray the self-created expectations of their electorates, rather than because they engage in symbolic homosexual sex. Although of course it could be read that way, which is indeed worrying.

*Difficult to phrase this one, as I consider myself generally "against prostitution", in that I consider it tragic that someone is reduced to such an activity against their will, but consider the activity of exchanging sex for money (while not something I would engage in myself) to be morally neutral in and of itself. I think
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:08 / 24.07.05
But what the fuck does any of this have to do with Greenpeace? Is this actually a good way of recruiting members? (huh huh...'members'...huh huh...)

What exactly do Greenpeace stand for? A, er, friend of mine was bollocked at Glasto for eating chicken in the Greenpeace canteen...wtf? Since when have Greenpeace had a vegetarian mandate?

Sure, ethical treatment of animals, organic farming, no fur, but for fucks sake...nice to be in a position to be able to take a moral stance about what food you eat and don't eat - you obviously have enough of the stuff in the first place. I thought it was a bit absurd, and not likely to help their cause at all, (the chicken thing and the video).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:34 / 24.07.05
I think my gut feeling is that while the ad may contribute in a minor way to such negative stereotypes, we may be dangerously close to PC Hell on this one.

Police Constable Hell? Who he?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
11:35 / 24.07.05
LOL! I love the idea of a PC Hell making sure everyone's language is above board. Nice.
 
 
Bill Posters
11:48 / 24.07.05
Police Constable Hell? Who he?

he's sort of like one of the Dark Judges in 2000AD, only more like your local British Bobbie.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:53 / 24.07.05
S'right. He'll empty a clip in a fare evader on the Tube, that PC Hell. Zone extension? Forget it, mate.

Singing:

Scourge of the wicked,
and the innocent as well
He's gun totin' PC Hell.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:56 / 24.07.05
They call him trigger happy
He's the tolling of the bell
that gun totin' PC Hell.

This could run and run.

Sorry for the rot. As you were.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:58 / 24.07.05
Not only masculine
but feminine as well
that WPC Hell

I've finished.
 
 
Bill Posters
12:12 / 24.07.05
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:14 / 24.07.05
What Greenpeace stands for. There doesn't seem to be a vegetarian agenda in there, although I imagine that there is probably a sizeable overlap between Greenpeace activists and those who might be opposed either to the eating of meat or to factory farming methods, either of which might have been the reason your friend was hassled.

However:

Sure, ethical treatment of animals, organic farming, no fur, but for fucks sake...nice to be in a position to be able to take a moral stance about what food you eat and don't eat - you obviously have enough of the stuff in the first place.

I think falls into the trap of assuming that stuff you believe in is rational, but if somebody goes further than you they are a doctrinaire loon. I'm not entirely convinced by the argument that since people are starving elsewhere, you should shut up about food if you have it, because it doesn't make an awful lot of sense.

Likewise, PW, your suggestion that an opinion that does not tally with yours on whether and how something is offensive is Polical Correctness, and therefore manifestly wrong, is one that has cropped up quite a lot on Barbelith, and is usually responded to in about the same way. You may want to try reframing your argument using different and more relevant terminology.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:30 / 24.07.05
Can paranoidwriter explain what he thinks 'PC Hell' actually means? I'm sure that will be very educational.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:31 / 24.07.05
Anyway, if you use "you two are gay lovers" as an insult, that's homophobia. How could it not be? This is fucking simple stuff.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:33 / 24.07.05
"Likewise, PW, your suggestion that an opinion that does not tally with yours on whether and how something is offensive is Polical Correctness, and therefore manifestly wrong, is one that has cropped up quite a lot on Barbelith, and is usually responded to in about the same way. You may want to try reframing your argument using different and more relevant terminology."

Maybe (a word I don't use lightly), but I'm a little concerned that you think this is what I'm doing. Indeed, I use qualifiers (e.g. "I think my gut feeling", "we may be dangerously close"), I take people's points on board, acknowledge this fact, and state whenever I MAY be unsure about something I'm discussing (e.g. "Pure conjecture of course, and like I typed I'm faaar from sure about this."); but still, you seem to think I'm being ignorant or in some way arrogant and dismissive. Do you really think this or are you pushing my buttons and I'm being slow to get the joke (which is on me)?

Before you answer, please bear in mind that at no point have I blatantly accussed or even suggested that I FIRMLY believe someone / anyone is catagorically wrong in this particular thread. Indeed, I have asked for more information to "take away and chew over" and thanked other members for helping me in a matter which I was (and still am) unsure about.

I will, however, take time to examine my conduct in this thread from your POV and attempt to see whether I really am suggesting that "an opinion that does not tally with yours [my opinions] on whether and how something is offensive is Polical Correctness, and therefore manifestly wrong," e.g. Is this an accurate statement?

Therefore, Haus, if you can provide me with more info and analysis to aid my self-development, please feel free to PM me (that is, if YOU can be bothered).

Shame, we were so close. You made a joke, I laughed....

*p.w leaves the building, confused and saddened*
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:34 / 24.07.05
Can paranoidwriter explain what he thinks 'PC Hell' actually means? I'm sure that will be very educational.

Will do. I'll post something ASAP. Cool?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:38 / 24.07.05
I don't really think people should shut up about food and issues around it because people are starving, but the adoption of a pious high ground regarding the morality of consuming meat is a privileged position, and absolutley not explicit in the Greenpeace 'manifesto'...so it irked at the time (I'm a veggie anyway, but people have to eat, and how/what they choose to do so seems best left to personal choice and out of the political/activist arena...which even GP seem to recognise, since there is no 'Are you vegetarian/vegan?' qulifyier in their membership procedures.)

I understand from the point of view that if Joe and Joanne RightOn approached the Greenpeace field looking to sign up and saw a rabid carnivore in the midst of a feeding frenzy tearing a chicken leg to pieces they might turn about face in a huff and be desperately disappointed at the betrayal of what they asssumed to be shared values, but other than that it was an ENORMOUS fuss based on actual moral outrage with no specific explanation other than 'It's MEAT!'. Meh. Different strokes, I suppose.)

Another thread, anyway.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
13:30 / 24.07.05
Flyboy, and anyone else who's actually bothered, I hope this anecdote (etc) goes some way to explaining what I meant earlier by "PC Hell":

I have a friend who is a very dry, intelligent, witty, and funny man, and the other week a few of us were watching something on TV which he didn't like. His response:

"This is hippy shit. When's the Fuhrer on?"

Those of us that knew him laughed, as we knew of his particular interest in WW2, Nazi Germany, and Totalitarianism (etc), as well as the fact that virtually everyday Adolf Hitler seems to get free airtime on British television. However, one person who was in our company seemed to take offence at my friend's comment, pulling a face and saying something acerbic (which I forget). Indeed, it was as though my mate had actually said:

"Hitler is great, nevermind all those dead Jews. I want to see him on the TV now, as I have no time for liberal drama TV shows."

This type of reaction is an example PC Hell. It is the use of something which was supposed to force us to address the language we have inherited through years of bigotry, fear, and ignorance, in such a way that it accuses innocent people of moral and often linguistic crimes they haven't committed, and / or forcibly silences people (which is never a good thing). It is akin to someone wrongly "playing the race card" (as the media call it).. Such PC finicky pedantry often belittles issues, side-tracks debate and therefore intellectual evolution, and is (IMHO) as equally counter-productive as (say) using deliberately risqué acts (etc) to get a point across in a propaganda film.

Of course, none of you really know me, so it may be hard to tell at times. But I would hate to think after the many posts I have made here -- many of which you may not have read, of course -- that any of you would have a PC knee-jerk reaction to a phrase I have taken time and care to use in context, and one which really isn't all that bad either, is it? It suggests that you question my motives or that maybe there's something else going on (which I doubt/hope isn't hapening). However, if this is true then why don't you come right out and ask me what my motives are, and / or just say that you don't like / trust me and would rather I wasn't here? Please, feel free...

That typed, as Haus seemed to me to suggest earlier, this may all be down to my style of writing (or I've made the whole thing up, of course). But if this is the soul reason behind all this, may I suggest that I am not alone in this respect?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:14 / 24.07.05
I think use of the phrase "PC knee-jerk" is itself a knee-jerk reaction, which is kind of the point. Some useful stuff on this might be found in here.
 
 
Cat Chant
17:22 / 24.07.05
one person who was in our company seemed to take offence at my friend's comment, pulling a face and saying something acerbic (which I forget). Indeed, it was as though my mate had actually said:

"Hitler is great, nevermind all those dead Jews. I want to see him on the TV now, as I have no time for liberal drama TV shows."


Um. Certainly in my own friendship group, a non-memorable acerbic comment and a bit of face-pulling would be an extreme underreaction to someone saying "Hitler is great, nevermind all those dead Jews".
 
 
Char Aina
17:35 / 24.07.05
as in most.
but that isnt what was said, is it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:37 / 24.07.05
No, toksy. That was what her reaction was posited as appropriate to. That is, if he had said that, it would have been appropriate for her to have pulled a face and made an acerbic comment, whereas it was not appropriate, and was in fact political correctness gone mad, to do the same to a harmless and humorous comment like "This is hippy shit. When's the Fuhrer on?"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:39 / 24.07.05
This is why I linked to the thread above as interesting, btw. Feeling that somebody is trying to make you feel bad about something that you have decided is not something you should feel bad about is certainly irksome, but does it need to bbe described as 'PC'? Maybe they just have a different level of sensitivity? Or a different sense of humour? Personally, I suspect that if I hadn't known in advance that the fellow was very witty and funny, I would have found that statement simply inexplicable.
 
 
Cat Chant
17:47 / 24.07.05
that isnt what was said, is it?

Yeah - what Haus said about that, really, it was paranoidwriter's "it was as if he had said..." Was just trying to make the point that it wasn't really as if anything of the sort.

FWIW, though I hate to see another good thread get derailed into the PC Hell thing, I do think that certain kinds of liberal policing of speech patterns are pointless and counterproductive, particularly when I see my first-year post-colonialism students with absolutely no vocabulary for talking about race or racism. But if I had my druthers, use of the phrases "political correctness" (as well as "stress" and "stereotype") would carry a penalty (at least on barbelith), since they tend to be unhelpful and obscurantist shorthands for bundles of unrelated concepts. Not quite tinfoil words for me, like in Ganesh's thread, but not far off them...
 
 
Char Aina
17:48 / 24.07.05
i got that, hausy.
i just wondered why deva felt the need to point that out, when it was quite clear PW was freestylin 'a really offensive thing' to fit 'a reaction to a really offensive thing'.
sorry if that wasnt clear.
 
  

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