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Terrorism and Religion / Violence and Ideology

 
  

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Francine I
06:47 / 17.07.05
Haus has already started a thread similar to this one in response to a spate of off-topic posts begun in an earlier thread in response to a poster named DecayingInsect's (also referred to as 'DI') comments about terrorism and Islam. In a more recent thread begun by Ganesh, a similar phenomenon occurred. I take this to mean this is a discussion that needs to happen, so I'm trying to provide an arena for that, and also I'm trying to focus the question if possible more thoroughly on the question of the relationship between terrorism and religion. Also, more broadly, the relationship between violence and ideology.

For example, it is often alluded to that a sort of uncanny correlation exists between Islam and terrorism. On one side of the debate, it's held that a plainly obvious relationship exists between Islam and modern-day terrorism. This position sometimes evidences recent events, particularly since 9/11, as indicative that something inherent and more prevalent in Islam, an exciter of great violence, somehow sets Islam aside from other prominent religions or ideologies of recent history. Sometimes it is held that the oppressive regimes of many primarily Muslim nations are responsible for this influence and sometimes it's held that the Koran itself leads ultimately to a violent conclusion. The arguments are varied. The opposing argument generally de-emphasizes Islam as an important factor in the causes of recent animosity between the United States (or sometimes argued, the "Western World") and many prominently Arabic or Islamic nations. It is sometimes cited that the United States has a long history of taking sides in regional conflicts in the Middle East and actively attempts to exploit or control the affairs of nations with supply to critical petroleum resources. It is also argued that taken over a long period of time, this sort of violence occurs in the name of all manner of causes, and must have other underlying features, or that it "takes two to tango".

This doesn't even begin to sum up the myriad points of view that roughly group into either side of the debate, so I'm hoping anyone that was involved in the heated discussion that cropped up in the threads dedicated to other topics could resume their debate or discussion here.


For my part, I think that each act of violence has it's own genesis, so trying to compose everything in the sense of saying "It's all Islamic terror, they want to take over the world!" or "It's all Western hegemony! Greed and power-hungry expansion!" might not be the best place to start the discussion even if that's an individual's ultimate conclusion.

So DecayingInsect, if you would, I'll drop any assumptions or conclusions I've come to, but I'd like to hear from you just what relationship you think there is between Islam and modern terrorism. Feel free to pose me a similar question.

I hope anyone interested will have a go at the topic in whichever angle(s) they think interesting.
 
 
sleazenation
08:06 / 17.07.05
Would it be helpful if I, or someone else, reposted my comments about the problems of identifying specific acts of terror with specific ethnic, religious or racial groups? They would seem more relevant here than in the 7/7 vs 9/11 thread...
 
 
Francine I
19:01 / 17.07.05
"Would it be helpful if I, or someone else, reposted my comments about the problems of identifying specific acts of terror with specific ethnic, religious or racial groups? They would seem more relevant here than in the 7/7 vs 9/11 thread..."

I was debating the clean slate approach when I started typing, but now that you mention it, we might need some kindling to get this started. I'll dig up some of the older comments later today if you're already going for the most recent derailment.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
20:08 / 17.07.05
I always wonder if violence shows you believe more strongly in your faith. For example, at anti-abortion ralleys you always hear the phrase "abortion is murder". Well, what the fuck people? You honestly believe there are murder stations set up all over the country and you're just walking around with signs?

I don't condone killing abortion doctors or blowing up buildings, but just wonder if these people with their signs and slogans actually believe what they're saying or just towing their idealogy line.
 
 
sleazenation
20:44 / 17.07.05
No, I don't think a willingness to murder is the supreme hallmark of political conviction. Murder is far to easy to carry out, or order to be carried out, compared to the immense difficult and painful sacrifices, both personal and public, that endured by those truely committed to a cause.

To me at least, the strength and sacrifices of Ang Sang Suu Ky or Gandi show a greater committment to their respective causes than the simple willingness to kill, or have others killed demonstrated by the likes of Pol Pot or Slobodan Milosovic.

Further, I don't think that we as a society can afford to accept murder as a legitimate means of political expression. To do so would cheapen all life, both those of our political enemies and those of our allies, families and friends in an unaccaptable fashion.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
21:02 / 17.07.05
Does religious faith inspire acts of violence?

Well, if it's supporters are to be beleived, religion in all it's forms can inspire people to do all sorts of things.

On the one hand, look at the stories of the Judaeo/Xtian saints and prophets who stood up to the Romans, look at the Greek heroes who were spurred on by the gods, or look at people like Martin Luther King and Ghandi, who both said they were inspired by religion.

On the other hand: the Crusades, the Inquisition, the terrible partition between India and Pakistan.

It seems fair to say that religious faith played a part in all these acts; many of them involve people commiting violence. So yes, RF certainly does seem to have inspired acts of violence. But not on it's own.

In each of these above examples, a part is played by race, nationalism, poverty, government- I can't think of an example where religious faith is the only inpiration to violence.

Do certain religions tend to inspire especially fanatical followers?

1

Let's just get this right straight away: there have been fanatical (strongly conservative and proactive) elements in all modern religions. Flagellants, Taliban, Thugee- these are the most obvious and well known examples.

Again, however, I think fanaticism (a swing towards the conservative & proactive branch of the given religion) occurs because of political (or other) reasons beyond the religion itself. The Taliban became more powerful when their land was threatened by the Soviets, for example; the Thugee cult arguably gained power when the British invaded India.

My point being that any perceived fanaticism in Islam should be considered in a sociopolitical context; this will clearly show that to say "Islam produces more fanatics than Christianity", for example, is an invalid statement, because they are not under the same ammount of pressure: no-one is invading Christian countries, no-one is asserting that Christians are terrorists. At a more local level, the European far right is not trying to bad-mouth Christianity.

Were "the West" Islamic and "the East" Christian, it would be the same story today. In summarry:

It is untrue to say that there is more inclination to fanaticism in any given modern religion than in any given other.

2

While I think it is untrue to say that there is more fanaticism in any given modern religion than in any given other, I do think that a case can be made for an increase in religion as a factor in conflict in the post-Christian world, at least in Europe, N. Africa and western Asia**.

What I mean by this is that (for example) the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans, while they may have warred, actually shared many gods. Isis is a version of Astarte. Not just archetypes, but definite, strongly differentiated godforms were worshipped across these three regions and were not fought over; the Imperial wars may have sought the blessings of the gods but, crucially, they were not fought in their name. Similarly, the Brigantes fought sporadically with the Caledonians in pre-Christian Britain, but both worshipped Brigidda (among others).

Whereas, after that, we see the fall of the classical Roman Empire, and the rise of several warring and heavily religious political entities: first of all, the Christian Holy Roman Empire and Byzantium. Later, the by now strongly Islamic Persia increased it's empire, and the Turks rose to power.

These entities and others all fought eachother in various combinations: as they always had since BC/BM. The difference was that they now considered themselves "religious" as opposed to "heathen". Wars were fought not just over land but over religious ideals as well*.

So the summary now reads:

It is untrue to say that there is more inclination to fanaticism in any given modern religion than in any given other. However, there is evidence to suggest that religion is more a factor in conflict in the modern period than it was in the ancient world.

I beleive this addition is important because it reminds us that any fanaticism in Islam today has it's roots in a historic trend that is not local to Islam.




* (Earlier I argued that religion is not the only factor in "religious violence"; here is where we see it become one of these factors.)

** (The Incas and other South American civilisations ran holy wars, as did doubtless others around the globe.)
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
22:24 / 17.07.05
ANY religion that offers the faithful an eternity in paradise after death would be likely to have followers willing to risk violence and loss of life. I imagine the bombers would regret the loss of innocent life but would want God to be the final judge.

...

(tangent)
Why hasn't a jihad been declared against the Sudanese government over their treatment of muslims in Darfur?
(/tangent)
 
 
Francine I
03:23 / 18.07.05
In the interest of historical clarity:

Here is a thread covering very similar subject matter begun by Haus after an earlier derailment.

Here is the American Taliban thread from where discussion split off into Haus' thread.

Here is the thread begun by Ganesh to discuss comparisons between the media coverage of the 7/7 and 9/11 events wherein discussion relating to the relationship between Terrorism and Religion, et al, split off into this thread.

So most historical references that a poster might make in this thread to earlier discussion can very likely be found in one of those three threads. Should a poster reference a conversation begun in one of those threads here, I would suggest they specify which thread in particular that would be.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:34 / 18.07.05
ANY religion that offers the faithful an eternity in paradise after death would be likely to have followers willing to risk violence and loss of life. I imagine the bombers would regret the loss of innocent life but would want God to be the final judge.

Hmmm... but you also have people who don't believe in eternal life prepared to risk violence and loss of life, yes? I mean, a fair number of the people who make up the armies of the developed nations at any given time probably qualify as at least agnostic... Having a divinity prepared to offer final judgement and an afterlife option would seem to be something that might make the decision to end one's one life or that of others easier (the faithful and the infidel alike being no worse off than they would be anyway), but even those who believe in no God and no afterlife have at times risked life and limb pretty comprehensively to achieve their goals - the Bolsheviks couuld provide an example.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
11:38 / 18.07.05
(Well put Haus. I've a felling my post says a lot more about me and my anti-religious feelings than it does about furthering the thread.)

What is the role of ideological or religious devotion in terrorism and violence in general?

Any ideology that sees people as a means to ends, rather than an ends in and of themselves, may view violence and the loss of life, in the pursuit of that cause, as acceptable.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
21:08 / 18.07.05
I think that the cart is before the horse, here. In religious politics, my impression is that we usually see people who wish to achieve a set of political goals, and then use religion as a tool to energize others and achieve those goals. We could be talking about the Middle East, the religious right, or the civil rights movement—in each case there is a goal or goals (be it eliminating Western interference, winning elections, or fighting discrimination), and afterward the Khomeinis, Bushes, or King Jr.'s appear to rally people and use religion to establish the rightness of the cause.
 
 
grant
21:42 / 18.07.05
Well, I don't think you can separate Islamic terrorism from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

And I don't think you can separate Palestinian suicide bombers from their antecendents in fascist Japan. In some ways, I think that phenomenon goes back to the American Civil War and WWI, when the technology of machine guns made trenches & suicide attacks a necessity in warfare.

I once made a thread on suicide bombers about this. Oddly, it almost immediately derails into a discussion of whether Jesus Christ was a kind of suicide bomber, since He was intentionally killing Himself for a religious purpose (and so that we'd spend generations capitalizing His pronouns, of course).

Anyway, as far as this discussion is concerned, I think that it's going to be nearly impossible to separate religious thinking from any act that requires a person to give up hir life in the commission of hir duties. It might be a kind of (pseudo-religious) State Worship, but it's definitely going to tread on churchy ground.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:30 / 19.07.05
As I said in another thread, the ideology that seems to have caused most indiscriminate violence in at least the last 100 years is the worship of the (more or less secular) nation state.

The following two ideas are extremely common in the warrior narratives of (more or less) secular, (more or less) democratic, capitalist Western states such as the USA and UK.

Firstly that it might be not only necessary but actually noble ("sweet and right", anyone?) to sacrifice one's own life in battle. In the long term, this is supposedly done for the sake of one's country (nation state), or in the name of values such as democracy, capitalism, secularism, or more vague concepts such as 'freedom'. In the short term of course, what one would be sacrificing oneself for is the immediate aim of killing or disabling as many of 'the enemy' as possible.

Secondly, that it will be necessary to kill 'enemy' civilians in order to protect our nation state, or further our cause, promote our values/ideology overseas, etc. In public speeches this is often expressed as being regrettable, a sad necessity, etc - although of course when 'we' kill other states' civilians (or stateless civilians) it is never described in the same terms as when 'they' kill 'ours'. When government and military talk to each other or amongst themselves, they are a little more honest about the strategic advantages of hitting "soft" targets.

So, the idea of sacrificing one's own life in the name of the cause you are fighting for, and the idea of it being necessary to kill civilians, are very familiar to 'our own armies'.

Why then does this idea persist that the suicide bomber's mentality is so alien to secular Western democracies?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:31 / 19.07.05
I think that in part it's about branding - psyops, if you like. Something that seems inexplicable to many is that the suicide bomber is prepared to end their own life with no chance of survival, and to do so with no strategic objective - you don't these days usually see a suicide bomber being used to take ground, as you might with a fireship.

So, the readiness to accept certain death for dubious strategic advantage is a point of possible difference, and it's something that the marketing bods at the jihad are happy to take advantage of. After all, they can't realistically say "We have more technologically sophisticated weaponry than you" or "we are prepared and trained to meet you in open ground and inflict a resounding defeat on your military". What they can say is "we are prepared to inflict loss of life on your civilian populations in a way that you are unable to comprehend and largely helpless to prevent" - the low-tech equivalent of an airstrike. Didn't one of the bin Laden tapes argue that the Americans would lose because they were in love with life, whereas their opponents were in love with death? Assuming that didn't mean that while sheltering in the caves they'd been listening to a lot of Bauhaus and Cradle of Filth, I think that's an attempt to clarify the competitive advantage of the insurgents.

However, I don't see any particular reason to believe that that has anything to do with religion per se...
 
 
grant
14:15 / 19.07.05
Didn't one of the bin Laden tapes argue that the Americans would lose because they were in love with life, whereas their opponents were in love with death? Assuming that didn't mean that while sheltering in the caves they'd been listening to a lot of Bauhaus and Cradle of Filth, I think that's an attempt to clarify the competitive advantage of the insurgents.



I wonder... it seems to me like the Bauhaus thing and the Laden-ish "love of death" might be more a difference in degree than in kind. Thinking of Columbine here, but also... well, that kind of adolescent disaffection & alienation, plus that elision between death-imagery and meaningfulness (it's gloomy, so it must be deep).

What's the average age of suicide bombers? What kind of media do they consume? I'm pretty sure there are numbers on this out there somewhere.


--------

I just bumped that suicide bomber thread because there was an interview on the radio this morning with the author of a new book on the subject. The Amazon page on his book includes the following bits from the book:

FACT: The world’s leading practitioners of suicide terrorism are the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka–a secular, Marxist-Leninist group drawn from Hindu families.

FACT: Ninety-five percent of suicide terrorist attacks occur as part of coherent campaigns organized by large militant organizations with significant public support.

FACT: Every suicide terrorist campaign has had a clear goal that is secular and political: to compel a modern democracy to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland.

FACT: Al-Qaeda fits the above pattern. Although Saudi Arabia is not under American military occupation per se, one major objective of al-Qaeda is the expulsion of U.S. troops from the Persian Gulf region, and as a result there have been repeated attacks by terrorists loyal to Osama bin Laden against American troops in Saudi Arabia and the region as a whole.

FACT: Despite their rhetoric, democracies–including the United States–have routinely made concessions to suicide terrorists. Suicide terrorism is on the rise because terrorists have learned that it’s effective.


Seemed pertinent to the discussion here -- I had no idea about the Tamil Tigers.
 
 
Francine I
05:32 / 20.07.05
A few posters have already commented along these lines, but to add my bit perhaps unnecessarily... I believe that:

More privileged societies (who generally attained their privilege through a period of systemic violence) generally enjoy the wealth and resources necessary to wage war in such a manner so as to publically remove themselves from their atrocities and cause their aggressive behaviour to appear somehow altruistic to a casual or shallow observer.

It is in their favour to do so because it allows them to participate in relations with other such 'societies of nobility', much as a corrupt CEO heading up a US corporation must make an effort to appear legitimate in order to continue their relationship with other corrupt CEO's and the corporate community in general, who will rapidly disassociate themselves from one of their ranks who has fallen to the poison of public knowledge of wrongdoing.

The 'war of privilege' methodology of Western nations is equally brutal towards non-combatants (e.g., civilians), but tends to reflect this brutality in "incidental" or "unfortunate necessity" terms, much as Haus commented above. And essentially, that terrorists bear the label of terrorist because they are stateless, and not so much because of their tactics. Established states employing more expensive and sophisticated tactics (e.g., 'Shock and Awe') are rarely if ever labeled thusly.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:33 / 20.07.05
Didn't read the thread so far.

Go and read the thread so far. It won't take long, and it might help you to gauge whether your contribution is useful or relevant to it.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
20:20 / 20.07.05
I wonder... it seems to me like the Bauhaus thing and the Laden-ish "love of death" might be more a difference in degree than in kind.

I have been thinking about Haus's comment about branding, and about Flyboy's mention of the ideology of the nation-state. Religion and nationalism both tend to penetrate into every aspect of life--clothing and music and diet just as well as politics. I'm wondering if ideologies which have this sort of penetration are more likely to suggest violent action, whereas identification with the brands of, say, libertarian or emo-rocker don't have the same sort of total life-encompassing proscriptions. The mechanism I have in mind is that if the way that you eat and groom are in line with your ideology, then everything you do becomes political in some way, and so you are more likely to be fanatical.

I don't think I'm contradicting my previous idea—I think the politics still uses the ideology, but that certain ideologies have more of a grip once politics uses them.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:08 / 28.07.05
*bump*

I just came accross news of a Fatwah issued out of the USA & Canada condeming terrorist tactics...

goes off to hunt for a news link.
 
 
grant
03:02 / 29.07.05
Here's one.
 
 
bjacques
07:38 / 29.07.05
The problem with fatwas is that they only carry as much weight insofar as the clerics issuing them are respected. Local kids might respect a local cleric who preaches against suicide bombing, but their radical friends could convinve them the moderates are "not really Muslims" or have sold out.

The ones pimping the kids to their dooms will ignore such fatwas anyway. Too bad Muhammad didn't say, for instance, that if you killed a fellow Muslim, they get to Paradise before you do and can have a say as to whether you get in. Middle Eastern and Indonesian suicide bombers have killed a lot more believers than dirty kuffars.

It was a Tamil Tiger suicide bomber who took out Rajiv Gandhi in 1991 while he was campaigning to get back into office after being bounced out in 1989 for being corrupt and useless.

And the Tamil suicide bombers ("Black Tigers") are virgins. Marriage is not allowed (never mind casual sex) until the age of 25 for women and 28 for men, ages suicide commandos aren't likely to reach.

Wilhelm Reich probably had it right. Sexual repression is a good way to instill a capacity for suicidal violence. Religion, politics or goals are secondary.

Contrary to one of the facts listed further up, though, sending the Crusaders packing isn't the only goal of Iraqi radicals. It's an inspiring goal, but really a cover for a power grab. Sunnis have aimed suicide bombers at Shiites and moderates too.
 
 
skolld
16:28 / 29.07.05
So reading all of these things leads me to ask the question: do the violent acts cause people to embrace religion? Is it a way for the human mind to cope as opposed to the driving force to act?
Similar to Tommy's point but perhaps a more'does art imitate life or does life imitate art' question.
 
 
redtara
01:22 / 05.08.06
I think the representation of Arab suicide bombers being primarily motivated by their faith is a misleading projection of our media onto a culture that is, often willfully, misunderstood. We don't ascribe religion as the primary motivating factor to American service personnel or Bush, despite their oath to god and country or his 'born again' rhetoric.

Palestinian Deaths and Injuries in the WestBank and Gaza Over the Last Six Years

These numbers are in the context of a tiny country (pop 2.5 mill-ish). So, in the same way that everyone in New York (pop 1.5 mill-ish) knew someone directly affected by Sept. 11th, each of these incidents piles on a weight of sadness, oppression, injustice and pointlessness. The Palestinians have no infrastucture left. Nothing about their life is normal in the sense that anyone living at peace understands that word.

My point (finally) is that brutality causes people to embrace brutality. The death of hope is what creates suicide bombers. They are what you do in an intolerable situation when all other options have been taken away, including enduring any longer.

I think that a rage at perceived injustice pushes people into becoming suicide bombers more than religion pulls them. Religion may provide stirring, loin girding type context, much as it does for US armed forces, chaplains and all.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
07:10 / 05.08.06
We don't ascribe religion as the primary motivating factor to American service personnel or Bush, despite their oath to god and country or his 'born again' rhetoric.

That's not what several Barb' members are saying in this thread.
You also have to factor in the lack of real-world benefit to either side from doing what they do, from a single suicide bomber up to GWB himself. For example, the chance of the U.S scaling down its involvement in the Middle East and its support for Israel pretty much dissappeared on 9/11, as did the possibility for further attacks in the wake of new security measures. Who benefited from that in a material or political sense? George Bush? He may have got a second term out of it but his policies have made the U.S weaker than ever, and the 'DON'T U SEE IT WAS ALL ABOUT OIL!!!11!!WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!2£!!!0*!' theory doesn't hold up either. Oil isn't going to come out of Iraq in profitable quantities with a civil war happening. When things 'settle down' over there there's no guarantee that the regime in place will be any better than Saddam's. Again, who benefits from that?
It seems to me that the two sides in this conflict, 'The West' and radical Islam (to oversimplify a lot) aren't gaining anything from continuing down the roads they're on, so is it inconcievable that they don't see their reward in this life but in the next?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:49 / 05.08.06
Interesting thing on the World Service last night about Christian Zionism (link goes to Wikipedia entry).

I forget the actual figures, but apparently it's a lot more common than I thought.
 
 
Sina Other
12:50 / 05.08.06
ANY religion that offers the faithful an eternity in paradise after death would be likely to have followers willing to risk violence and loss of life. I imagine the bombers would regret the loss of innocent life but would want God to be the final judge. - valence

I'm a practicing Muslim, raised in the UK. I haven't posted much on these boards, but I feel like I should speak up here. It doesn't seem to be common knowledge that living peacefully and honestly is rewarded with paradise, and the taking of innocent life is one of the gravest sins in Islam. The people I know that are the most involved on a day-to-day basis with learning about and sharing their knowledge of Islam - the fanatics, if you will - are honest, compassionate and a privilege to know.

I went to school and was friends for a time with two people who were arrested last year for plotting to blow up a London nightclub. Neither of them felt particularly strongly about the faith they had been brought up in, and both of them very quickly became politically radical after the twin towers attack. Their enthusiasm for Islam was motivated from the beginning by their desire to take part in something similar, so they would dismiss any arguments against Osama bin Laden and the Taleban out of hand.

You can read here (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=45119) about Naveed Haq, who last week went into a Seattle synagogue determined to kill somebody:

'This spring, Haq was unemployed, on food stamps, facing charges of lewd behavior in Kennewick, living in government-subsidized housing in the Tri-Cities, and battling manic depression, for which he was taking lithium. He had flirted with several careers, from dentistry to tutoring to electrical engineering (his major at WSU), but couldn’t settle into anything permanent. “That’s Naveed,” Renner says, “he changed his mind all the time.”'

I can't and won't speak for the suicide bombers of Iraq and Lebanon and Palestine, because I don't know anything about their circumstances and motivations. But I'm positive that Westernized suicide bombers are always taking the quick way out from difficulties in their personal lives, or from facing up to the knowledge that they aren't living the way they should be.
 
 
redtara
21:12 / 05.08.06
Yes, the death of hope.
 
 
illmatic
09:24 / 06.08.06
But I'm positive that Westernized suicide bombers are always taking the quick way out from difficulties in their personal lives, or from facing up to the knowledge that they aren't living the way they should be.

This is much my feeling about the July 7th bombers. It struck me recently that wouldn't it have been much more productive, though much more difficult and less rewarding to the ego, to spend one's life, say, advocating for the Palestinian cause in the UK, than to blow oneself up? Think of what they might have achieved after 50 years of that instead of a brief flash of notoriety.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
11:18 / 06.08.06
Or, if one is determined to kill people for one's cause, plant a bomb then leave to plant another bomb at another time.
(Incidentally, there's an article here that asks 'Are gyms, not mosques, the main breeding ground for Islamic terrorists?')
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:13 / 06.08.06
Robert Pape's latest work on suicide bombing will be published fairly shortly - I think tomorrow. There's some intreresting info in the pre-release teasers: for example, he studied all the identifiable Hizbollah suicide bombers. Surprisingly, only eight of the 38 were Islamic fundamentalists - three were Christians. The most common factor was membership of socialist organisations. Which is interesting, although might just induce BushGov to launch a War on Socialism. More to the point, rather than religious clashes, suicide terrorism seems to occur almost exclusively in occupied territories, against democracies occupying those territories - Israel in Palestine and previously the Lebanon, the US in Iraq and so on. 9/11 was related, by this logic, to the presence of US soldiers in the Arabian Peninsula.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:38 / 06.08.06
Sorry - forgot. Here's a link to an interview with Pape in the American Conservative, with some interesting factoids.
 
 
Ticker
21:59 / 07.08.06
That article was very concise and accessible. Was it just me though that got weirded out by the phrase 'protecting our oil interests' repeatedly?

Okay he's an academic so using the nekked truth shouldn't be as shocking as say if I heard it from a government official but it was pretty damn unnerving. Obviously on some level I am just a sad hopeful believer in the candy coating of ideals justifying our poisonous agenda.
 
 
illmatic
08:13 / 08.08.06
You might find this interesting XK. It's a couple of years old now, but still of interest - a "by the book" justification of the invasion of Iraq which acknowledges resource control as a motive as well as other interests.
 
 
illmatic
09:17 / 08.08.06
Oh, I forgot the author's exact connection with the establishment - hold on, Wikipedia tells us that as well as his academic work, "in the 1970s, he worked ...on the charter of the Central Intelligence Agency. He has worked in the White House as associate counsel to the president, the Senate, the State Department, and the National Security Council, where Bobbitt served as the director for Intelligence, senior director for Critical Infrastructure, and senior director for Strategic Planning." So I think his opinions could be taken as "establishment views", he's just a lot more plain speaking than many others in those positions.
 
 
Ticker
15:18 / 08.08.06
Thank ye, that was very refreshing in its honesty and sensibility. It's interesting to me how a lot of Americans want their big ass SUV's but refuse to address the issue of oil resources as a major factor in the Middle East war efforts.
 
  

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