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We Wu Wei

 
  

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Anthony
18:17 / 22.07.05
absolutely
 
 
---
20:19 / 22.07.05
there's no annihilation of the ego.

As far as Mahayana is concerned, and this is just one school of thought, or guidance, you're led to a point where you come to a realisation that there is no ego and there never was in the first place. It's supposed to be one of the main aspects that the Bodhisattva has to understand. It isn't supposed to be easy either, and is one of the hardest things for them to grok.

If you google 'twofold egolessness' you'll see some writing/sutras on it. By twofold I think it's meaning that there's no ego inside and none outside (in anything or anyone else.) either.

Which might help a little, but it isn't something we can really debate much I don't think, seeing as we'd apparently have to be almost fully enlightened to understand the concept.

From what I get, personality, ego, self, body, feelings, thoughts, inside, outside, they're all just illusory constructs that we've made ourselves believe to be real after trying to grasp them. As for the argument about thought, I don't think it ever can be stopped, but what happens is that the mind starts intuitively understanding and seeing that there's a whole other being that doesn't depend on thought, and once the passions, habits and grasping are let go of enough you don't really exist where the thinking mind is anymore, you're part of a being that's infinitely greater than that. I think that means that no matter what thought is in the thinking mind, no matter what mentation is still going on, it doesn't condition your being anymore in any way at all.

Maybe like a ladder used to climb up onto something. You step on the bottom rung, (discrimination, mental plane, thought etc.) then the rest of them and climb all the way to the top, then get off the ladder onto a roof for example. The bottom rung is still there on that ladder, but it's not a place you're in anymore and it doesn't affect you. Then if you're say, a Master, or a Bodhisattva, you climb back down the ladder and back into the realms of discrimination and thought and use those rungs (planes) to teach others how to climb the ladder aswell. (if you want to do that, or you can just.......get in the imaginary helicopter that's on the roof and pass to your Nirvana instead, kissing the ladder and the roof goodbye.)

Just to add aswell, I'm not trying to pretend I know any of this, I'm just trying to explain what I think some of these teachings are trying to convey.
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:20 / 24.07.05
Intresting reading this again i kinda got the impression that theres nothing to do, nothing to be and nowhere to go, that pointlessness is here now and always, so why make all this bother for myself at all, cause theres no self to be bothered.

i am getting this give up fuck it all feeling very close to nihilism.
 
 
macrophage
00:34 / 24.07.05
As the wise bastard said Nothing Lasts Forever and Everything Lasts In Between. WE breathe and we live. That's why god put us on this planet - aherm - sorry for the Monotheist Shift it won't happen again! You can either exist as passive or active top or bottom. That's the Dualism of Reality folks - towards the Third Gender and to Cross Hybridisation of Species and Humans. HUpig anyone???!!! 19 years after a spiritual labyrinth and all I want to do is get the best shag of my life full stop and to interact with people like me. Contrast Eastern Spiritual Mythos with the Transgressions and the Dark Bellies of Civilised Society. You end up waking up out of the hell you've painted youselves in and starting to think positive and reframe about everything with a big fuck em all. Zen is great and so is Buddhism and so is Hindu gods but not for me. Eventaully you have to come to Earth with a pinch of salt after all that mercury and sulphur in your alchemical ovens of desires and nightmares. To Erase Obsessions and Man's Lust for Desecration and Wholesale Murder - the Serial Killer as the Archetype of the Storm.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:11 / 24.07.05
Intresting reading this again i kinda got the impression that theres nothing to do, nothing to be and nowhere to go, that pointlessness is here now and always, so why make all this bother for myself at all, cause theres no self to be bothered.

i am getting this give up fuck it all feeling very close to nihilism.


This is really going to piss something or other off, but *who* is getting this feeling?

Now perhaps it's more obvious why it is said that the 'enlightened' men and women who choose a monastic or hermetic life are the most truly selfish of all.

The immense privilege of having all your basic needs already sorted (food, clothing, shelter) is not necessarily a ticket to nihilism nor 'fuck it all'.

'Being' is a process first, a 'noun' second; and the only point, if there is any point at all, to all that advaita teaching, is to explain that the search, the quest, keeps the seeker from the beauty of the present moment. That is what you have to work with. Now.

What do you want to do with it? (Accepting that in order to function in society, there must be a pretence of a 'you', all the time (all the time?) remembering that it is only a game You (BIG Y) are playing with your self (little y)...acting, not 'method' acting. As in play your part, but don't lose yourself in the role. It's a comedy, remember?)
 
 
---
10:57 / 24.07.05
i kinda got the impression that theres nothing to do, nothing to be and nowhere to go, that pointlessness is here now and always, so why make all this bother for myself at all, cause theres no self to be bothered.

Maybe that pointlessness is the void, and the same place that the spirit, higher self, or essence emerges from if it's kept clear for long enough.

I originally wrote a post a lot longer than this that I just read back to myself, but that sentence sums it up and saves a load of waffle.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:12 / 24.07.05
The only time a pretence to you need be is when engaged in a form of communicative relationship, the rest of the time emptiness can be engaged, relaxation techniques of any kind can help emptiness make a home.

Now a long shot flying in the face of my own personal experience and past mystics, what if that ego is very real? and its slow destruction is a way of embracing death quicker through awareness techniques, or whatever cultural methods are employed?

what if the me experiencing is the reality? and the rest becomes a denial of self, searching for a higher power to be replaced by? because of a lack of self esteem, self confidence, self love? what if it is really about satisfying all those lusts to keep yourself as happy as possible, changing the equation through concord and discord until it hits right until you need to change it again.

when your at a low, and there is a me to be at a low sometimes do i want to just self deny and give up everything, that being myself, the work of art i have crafted? or do i want to work at keeping it afloat til death takes me into that mystery itself?

I realised the other day i could wank on endlessly about emptiness from books id read, but my only real self experience came from an nde that was terrifying, terrified at losing my life a grasping it back as quickly as possible, because i dont want to be dead, i want to be living, eating, shitting, fucking, sleeping, dreaming, and all the other fun stuff a self can do with an awareness of self fulfillment doing those things and total selfish involvement in the pleasure recieved from doing them. a love of the selfishness involved in the self experience. a reverence for each action that i decide to do.

my experience of self denial is self harm.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:33 / 24.07.05
'You' will never know what 'being dead' is like, (being dead? Hmmm.) since 'death' refers to the end of the experiencing structure (which is 'you') so the entire paragraph is, no offence intended, nonsense.

That the experiencing structure reserves a little corner for fear of the end of it's organic house is hardly surprising really, since the entire movement towards maintaining the illusion of continuity is predicated on a terror of admitting to itself that it is temporary, transient and ephemeral. The entire continuity illusion IS fear. Hence the insistence on continuity, endless cascade, movement, the weaving of 'I' from the flow of thought.

YOU, then, are FEAR of cessation. So, there is nothing to fear but fear itself, to really drum out the cliches. It's a bit like talking to my dear mum about entheogens - she can't even contemplate, in her own words 'that loss of control'.

But the statement is tautological - "I am afraid of losing control"..."I" is "control", so the statement "I am afraid of losing I" is pretty much the same thing as "fear is fearsome" or "frightened frightens" - whatever. Thing is, with I out of the way - what's afraid?

In the absence of 'you' there is nothing left to be scared...just a perfectly functioning organism, which might well respond to a present situation by flooding the limbic system with adrenaline and noradrenaline and hoiking its self-preserving arse out of there.
Who knows? ;-)
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:43 / 24.07.05
btw, 'my' own experience of 'dying' was quite different to the one 'you' describe. I was sad, so sad to wave goodbye to everybody I loved, my wife, my son, my sister, mum, dad, friends and relatives, a real longing was present, a sense of 'really? now? so soon?', but along with it a deep knowledge that this was their fate too, one day, every manifestation, no permanence, not even stars billions of years old, all passing the same way, giving up the ghost so to speak.

But where is there to go? Everything that is must be, or it wouldn't, would it? Even nowhere, if there is such a place, must be. Even nothing, if it exists, has is-ness, right? If it is...well, then, it is, right? And if it isn't, if it doesn't be, then what the hell are we talking about?

Are You, then? I mean, You, rather than you.

(See, the problem with tlaking about this stuff for this long, is that eventually it becomes impossible to avoid sounding like a cryptic and irritating wanker...see my comments re: Wei Wu Wei, to bring us right back to the topic at hand).
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:57 / 24.07.05
i am getting this give up fuck it all feeling very close to nihilism.

Get it. Submerge in it totally. Give up. Fuck it all.

Now what?
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:36 / 24.07.05
see i submerge that i am laying in bed all day awake at night, avoiding people, going out of my way to make people uncomfortable around me so they piss off, being annoying and agressive, so i can suffer myself on my own and not drive that into others. i react really badly to it, the sense of nihilism first introduced me to my nde that and alcoholism and drug related issues, oh and a horrendous relationship breakdown. so i submerge into it and i have a world of pain, that literally will eventually kill me, ill go into the darkness again, no light for me, a serpent will uncoil from my navel and thats my life leaving me, the last time it actually asked me do you want me to go? i was so scared of dying i replied no. before this experience i was hearing very high piched sounds and hallucinating that i was an angel. ive had these experiences before while on hash and grass, but this was mostly without.

i kicked drinking and drugs from my nde, going back to the nihilism i am afraid they come back with it, ive been clean for nearly six years now, drinking one glass only at celebrations, weddings etc, i ve since that time searched out various things gnosticism, vodou, satanism, shamanism, tantra, yoga, tai chi anything that had serpent symbolism prevalent in it and theres alot of it.

In the darkness i am alone, no family, no friends, nothing but me and self reflection. i still vist it occasionally, but i cant bear the pain of being there, i feel threatened biologically by it.

before my nde i was submerged occasionally into through acid and mushrooms, the pain goes back along way, my grandfather meeting my grandfather to have me aborted before i was born, emotional and physical childhood trauma.

i have enough tears in me, id never stop crying and screaming.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:52 / 24.07.05
Although that sounds truly awful, 'never' is a very (very) long time.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:55 / 24.07.05
Well making the earlier post something began happen, after posting i started to feel drained, a few tears, frustration surfacing and a malaise. so off i trot to water my dads plants for the weekend, which i still have the energy to do, as i ride back on my bike it starts to set in harder. by the time i am home, ineed some answers i turn to the i chingand get my diary out, i throw no changing lines and get a hexagram i am unfamiliar with number 4, i use stephen karchers translation total i ching, i love his use of old mythic structures and the way he ties in archaic chinese ritualism.

No.4, Enveloping/Royal maiden.

the foolish youth,a magic plant called royal maiden,a foetus in the womb.

All being as it gives birth must be enveloped. Enveloping means being immature.

I do not seek the foolish youth, the foolish youth seeks me.

the old time is ending.

accept being visibly confused.

make a sacrafice let the difficulties dissolve.

Well theres alot more to it, but eventually i could take no more of the feeling and lay down and passed out, i dont know what my dreams were up to and i get the feeling i am not ment to remember, but i woke very refreshed a little time ago, if somewhat dumb founded.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:57 / 24.07.05
never say never, heh.
 
 
--
03:37 / 26.07.05
Thanks for the replies, it's given me much to think about. I agree that with things of this nature one very rarely ever gets it the first time. Case in point: recently I decided to re-read some Kenneth Grant books, which I haven't done in awhile. In particular the first part of "Nightside of Eden", which was the first KG book I ever read. That first part always befuddled me, but now it seems to make more sense and what was once bemused confusion/perplexion has transformed into some type of deeper comprehension. It's like reading a totally different book. I don't know if it's due to my qabalistic pathworking/studies, this Wu guy (who seems to have had a big influence on some of KG's writings) or what... Curious.

I look in the mirror and see a reflection: That reflection is me. I sign my name on a check authorizing it to be cashed: That ink scrawl is also me. I type words online and people read them and in those words is myself: This binary information representing word glyphs is also me. Also, I interact with another person and they perceive me: Their perception of me is also me. A reflection, an ink scrawl, electronic information, a stranger's perception... All these "me's", in so many different formats... How can I be so many different things at once? And how does the body factor into all this (because the body is physical and seems to exist... Yet the reflection exists also, as does the ink, and so on and so on). And even if one is aware of this knowledge, how is it of practical use to day-to-day existence?
 
 
illmatic
08:50 / 26.07.05
And how does the body factor into all this (because the body is physical and seems to exist.

My take on this is the body and senses are the primary reality, thus anything that tries to split us from this perhaps opens us to more delusions. I'm interested in magick that connects us more and more with physicality.

And even if one is aware of this knowledge, how is it of practical use to day-to-day existence?

Trying to avoid metaphysical waffle, I suppose it's practical use is it avoids pain, you can stop defending/clinging to a lot of the deadwood and detrius that you identify with. We invest a lot of time and energy in defending, defining and searching for our conceptions of ourself - nice to remember these ideas and let that go, especially when this search and struggle becomes painful.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:14 / 26.07.05
The thing for me is this, express and feel whats most real to you in the moments its real, feel all the pain, the suffering, feel all the self, dont deny any of it.

No bodily need, no heart felt emotion, no mental frustration, feel it all, be it all, self identify with everything inside of you in what ever way you can, let every conception of self be real to you, especially the most painful, denile is a long river and easy to drown in.

dont try to sort truth from lie, real from unreal, its all real, everything is real, the self, the ego, the senses. every fantasy is real, every poem is real. You are an unfinished poem, verses flowing from sweet delight to eternal night, you remain unfinished. be real, embrace the vastness of reality in all its realms, sing your feelings dance them, weep them, celebrate yourself.

Your pain is a measure of your pleasure, never give up your suffering, suffering contains the seed of healing and great learning and strenght.

Life may kill you, dismember you, and life is sometimes like eternal conflict, keep flowing.

and listen to a few good albums occasionally.
 
 
illmatic
14:31 / 26.07.05
To follow my post above, I'd add that thinking in this way can give you a real sense of freedom and potentiality. If you're not tied to being one thing, you can do a lot more than you normally capable of. We all need reminding of this, I think.
 
 
--
15:37 / 26.07.05
But isn't the body finite whereas ideas have the potential of being infinite? And how can the body be real if (hypothetically speaking) everything is phenomenal, originating in Nothing? What's the point of existing if non-existence is, in the end, our final fate?
 
 
grant
16:27 / 26.07.05
My take on this is the body and senses are the primary reality

This seems pretty close to what the Keep Terri Alive! people were saying.

Extreme example, yes.
 
 
illmatic
09:04 / 27.07.05
But isn't the body finite whereas ideas have the potential of being infinite?

I don't know what this means, really. How can ideas be infinite? Every idea requires a thinker surely? Thinkers are finite, therefore so are ideas. Unless your going to postulate a gnostic otherworld of ideas, which I actually don't believe in, never having seen it, touched it, smelt it etc. No matter what Alan Moore says. If you can show me an infinte idea (perhaps send me one via PM?), I might change my mind.

And how can the body be real if (hypothetically speaking) everything is phenomenal, originating in Nothing?

If you think the body is not real, pinch yourself.

Ermm .. again, I'm not really sure what you mean. Possibly you're getting the ideas about falsity of phenomena mixed up with nihlism? As I understand it, these teachings are not saying "nothing exists", but rather that nothing has inherent self existence i.e. there is no seperate conceptual entity called "body" which is floating off in our gnostic otherworld somewhere. There's just what is, and everything else - all our ideas - are simply postulates, even though our use of language, self-reflexivity, culture causes us to take them as real. God, I hate discussing this stuff. You tie yourself in knots.

What's the point of existing if non-existence is, in the end, our final fate

Well, if that's the way you feel, why not stick you're head in the oven, right now? Or you might opt to enjoy it while you're here. What makes you think that existence has to have a point, anyway? Can't it just be kind of gratuitous?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:34 / 27.07.05
Every idea requires a thinker surely?

*Singing*
"Poor auld Michael Finnegan,
begin again..."

Check out this thread for more on this tricky subject.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:05 / 27.07.05
What's the point of existing if non-existence is, in the end, our final fate

Experience. Living, Learning. Growing. Loving. Hating. Fighting. Thinking. Creating. Developing. Understanding. Compassion. Sorrow. Pleasure. Mercy. Severity.

The Ain Soph is Nothingness, but it creates the Tree of Life. Why? It condenses into Malkuth. Why? Are Malkuth and the other Sephiroth a clumsy accident that we have to make the best of while we await death and a speculative eventual union with the Nothingness we came from? Or do these things exist in order for us to experience them to the fullest? Why would Nothingness go to all the hassle of creating the universe if it didnt want us to engage with it? If "Nothing" is indeed the eventual state we will return to, then I want to make fucking sure I make the best of "Something" while I still can.
 
 
illmatic
10:34 / 27.07.05
Exactly. And bear it mind when I say "gratuitous" I don't it in the sense of an "unecessary pain in the bum", either. I mean it more in the sense of something totally, over the top, yet unearned and free. Kind of like someone breaking into your house and painting all the walls day glo and flourescent, and dressing all your pets up in futuristic sci-fi costumes made of metallic lycra. Who wouldn't be happy with that?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:07 / 27.07.05
And how can the body be real if (hypothetically speaking) everything is phenomenal, originating in Nothing?

Eh?

All of your experience, phenomenological or otherwise, is dead, in the past, framed and put in a box by the totality of your individual memories and the memories of the entire species and culture that has gone before you overlaid as a lens through which you apprehend the data received by your senses. Your senses themselves, they exist in the now, they function in time and in tune with what is, or appears to them from their refernece point, to be occuring. 'You', the thoughts and feelings about those data, discriminate between them. Your olfactory sense knows what to do if it is likely to suffer damage as a result of excessive olfactory data, or your auditory-nervous system knows to move away from a source of pain or damage to its perfection...'You' are the discrimnatory factor that would rather listen to a piece of music than a cat fucking, or smell roses instead of dogshit. The sensory data itself is undiscriminated and homogenous, equivalent, one thing, non-preferential to yyour organism. It's all the same stuff.

As Lucky Liquid Swordz put it, there is very little to be gained by questioning the existence of your body...

What's the point of existing if non-existence is, in the end, our final fate?

Why do 'you' want to know? And who is this 'you' anyway? Curiosity, so I'm told, killed the cat.

You are going to get Alzheimer's if you continue using your thinking mechanism in masturbatory and preposterous ways. It will wear out.

Is there a God? What is the meaning of Life? Does magic exist? Do I exist? Is my body real? All else is bondage, wtf?

Do you see why Zen monks like to beat their initiates over the head repeatedly with a stick?

Can you, as the vernacular would have it, grok this little koan:

Before enlightenment: Draw water, carry sticks.
After enlightenment: Draw water, carry sticks.

If you like, more wordwank: The point of existing is to once again, in this eternal and infinitely entertaining and diverting dance / comedy / tragedy / artwork / insert narrative preference here, hide within seperative consciousness in order to search for the invitation to awaken to its delightful, and ongoing game of seperation from the One Isness that is always and already ever present and arising.

Hide and Seek. Boo. First thing that babies like to play. Now you see me, now you don't. Awakening to the dream, but not from it, Matrix fans. As the little bald kid who can't act would have it : "That's Impossible."

That's my bullshit, anyway. What's yours? Fuck everyone else, they don't know what the fuck's going on either. Kenneth Grant cannot help you. I certainly can't, and this thread has less chance than Craig has of winning Big Brother. Make it up. Sound like you mean it. Sell it if you want, people love to buy into this crap.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:14 / 27.07.05
Forgot to point out that the content of your senses and that which is sensed are one unitary process, indivisible; your thinking mechanism is what creates the sense of seperation and thus divides a 'self' from an 'other', the self no more than another dead, history imrisoned thought about the thoughts about the sense data-which-are-that-which-is-sensed.

Freaky Deaky, huh?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:20 / 27.07.05
Kenneth Grant cannot help you

Get me to a t-shirt or badge printers forthwith!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:28 / 27.07.05
I couldn't find a Venn diagram, but here, I know you'll love this.

The Vedas were written by Acid Heads

Isn't that lovely?
 
 
illmatic
11:41 / 27.07.05
Quite like this little site, it's as hippy dippy as Simon & Garfunkel but still very pleasant. Liked their disbelief in teachers, paths etc.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:41 / 27.07.05
At the very real risk of confusing the matter even further, and overloading on the linkage, this rather succinct and well written modern piece might just do the trick that this thread and Kenneth Grant have so miserably failed at. The opening sections particularly are quite a lucid rendition of these silly ideas.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:42 / 27.07.05
Your linky not working LLS.
 
 
illmatic
11:46 / 27.07.05
modded it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:14 / 27.07.05
Whats the point, there isnt one, so get on with being pointless in what ever point you'd like to make about being pointless.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:16 / 27.07.05
Pointed comments there.
 
 
--
13:39 / 27.07.05
A litle clarification here: When I said "What is the point of existence?" I wasn't expressing my personal thoughts on the mater, rather I was posing the question in light of how someone such as Wei Wu Wei would answer it. I do identify as a nihilist to some degree, alebit a nihilist with a sense of humor.

Instead of ideas I probably should have said archetypes, many of which antedate human existence. Austin Spare knew how to tap into these archetypes and atavisms... I did so once myself, alebit by accident. So in a manner I have seen the gnostic otherworld, and I do believe that it is the source from which many artists tap into (and I do think that creation is one of the most positive things you can do in this reality).
 
  

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