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Metal Gear Solid and innovations in videogame narrative

 
  

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Spatula Clarke
23:59 / 17.06.05
Be warned - this thread's going to be riddled with spoilers. There's no other way of doing it, I'm afraid. It’s also something that I’ve been struggling to put into some sort of coherent order, so bear with me.

MGS2's hated by an awful lot of people and I'm not sure if this is because they didn't understand what it was trying to do, because both the game and story are, at best, glorious failures, or because the narrative complexity that was eventually revealed frightened them. Or, of course, because they just didn’t like it.

One of the common aspects of the series is that it deals with big themes. At various points, the first game asks questions about the futility of war, what it means to be a soldier, eugenics, terrorism, revenge. It has one of the most superbly realised casts of characters in games. It also has a storyline told primarily through cut scenes which, when removed from the game itself, run to over three and a half hours. It would have been a bit of an important milestone if that was all it did – I can’t think of any game before it that had such a mature narrative or artistry of direction (the camerawork and physical acting in cut scenes is amazing, and the areas in which the actual gameplay takes place are just as memorable). In Solid Snake it provided a character with a stupid codename who appears to be the standard gruff action type (based on Snake Plisken), but who’s actually forced back into the service of his government against his will, is consistently lied to about the mission objectives and spends most of the story questioning the morality of his orders.

But that’s not all Metal Gear Solid does – it also expands on the basic idea of a videogame to make it something more than just controlling an avatar on a screen. There’s a great quote from series director Hideo Kojima on this subject in an old issue of C+VG:

I didn’t want to limit the game to the player and the information that comes from the monitor. I want the game to be the player, the controller, the monitor, the manual, the packaging and bring all that into one game.

Examples are cited by Triplets and Paleface in this thread, but the best is perhaps the character who tells you that the radio frequency to contact a certain ally is on the back of the CD case. Cue much searching around the base looking for the elusive case, before finally realising that it’s on the back of the CD case – the case that the game CD came in. Without experiencing them, it’d be easy to believe that these fourth-wall breaking moments could utterly destroy any sense of immersion, but they actually serve to reinforce it. Reviews of the series always tend to complain about the destruction of the gameworld’s reality – subdued enemies dropping items that appear as spinning boxes, exclamation or question marks appearing over the heads of surprised enemies, zzzzzz’s floating from their heads when knocked out, a particularly memorable piece featuring a deliberately censored nude bum – and Kojima himself says that Japanese players complained about the memory card and controller tricks mentioned by Triplets in the above link.

The complaints miss the point, imo. Sure, at first these things appear to be intrusions on what would otherwise be a ‘realistic’ game, but as you allow yourself to get swallowed up in its world they begin to make absolute sense. They’re consistent with the game’s internal logic, which is all that matters. It’s similar to the stuff I was saying about Pac-Man here, albeit slightly more complicated. It’s also refreshing to see a game tackle the problem of a lack of interactivity in ‘interactive movies’ by refusing to pretend that it’s anything but a game – in fact, it takes pride in that.

It should all be one huge mess of contradictions. It isn’t.

Kojima uses the sequel to expand on all of these ideas, but its main area of focus is the notion that the game can be the player.

But first of all there’s the sequel’s pronounced borrowing from film. The introductory ‘Tanker’ chapter provides a reintroduction to the core game concepts and brings us up to speed on what’s happened, story-wise, in the years since the last game. Snake’s gone underground and helped to form an anti-Metal Gear group dedicated to revealing the truth about the nuclear ambitions of the world’s governments to the people, via the Internet. There’s an unexpected twist, right there – you’re now fighting for another side (note: not the other side – Kojima refuses to paint the world as a binary good vs evil thing, instead going for the theme that good and evil don't exist, there are just different motivations). It pulls some tricks on the player again, but not as many. There are a few smart bits played for laughs where you’ve got to sneak past a couple of rooms full of marines watching a speech, which cleverly parody the whole stealth game deal, and a neato section where you’ve got to take some photos of a new Metal Gear and upload them to the web.

To understand why the second game attracted the sort of venom from the fan community, you need to understand just how effective Snake is as a main character. Because what happens at the end of the Tanker chapter means that you play the rest of the game – the Plant chapter, which is significantly longer than Tanker – as somebody else. Raiden.

Raiden’s an awfully dull character. He dislikes what he’s doing as much as Snake did in the first game, but he moans and whines where Snake would ask questions and then grumble a bit. He’s almost entirely void of any real character, instead being indistinguishable from the troubled, damaged, emotionally retarded teenager with a mysterious past of a depressing number of games (but most closely resembling Squall from Final Fantasy VIII). He’s one dimensional at best. Unlike Snake, you simply can’t feel any connection with him.

This is made worse by the inclusion of his girlfriend as one of the characters you have to communicate with via radio. Rose is the person you go to in order to save the game, and on almost every single occasion the script breaks out into the worst romantic melodrama imaginable – Sunset Beach has nothing on these two. The screaming fanboys have a point here – Rose is a miscalculation on Kojima’s part. There are solid reasons why Raiden is as he is, which we’ll get to in a second, but there’s simply no justification for the excruciatingly painful sub-plot with his s/o.

MGS2 is a wonderful mess, and Rose is part of what makes it a mess. Raiden is another. The third (bear in mind that there’s a fourth) is what happens during the majority of the Plant chapter.

In the first MGS, a nuclear weapons disposal facility called Shadow Moses has been taken over by a disgruntled group of ex-government employees, Foxhound. Snake himself is a retired member of Foxhound. He enters the base from the water. Once there he starts to get hints that things aren’t as they seem, most of them from the Foxhound members themselves. The nuclear weapons disposal facility turns out not to be a nuclear weapons disposal facility. Snake comes upon a scene of absolute slaughter. A cyborg ninja appears on the scene and confuses matters, apparently working separately from any of the other organisations present.

In MGS2’s Plant chapter, a pollution control plant off the coast of Manhattan is taken over by a disgruntled group of ex-government employees, Dead Cell. Raiden is sent in as a member of Foxhound, now apparently reformed and once again under the supervision of the government. He enters the base from the water. Once there he starts to get hints that things aren’t as they seem, most of them from the Dead Cell members themselves. The pollution control plant turns out not to be a pollution control plant. Raiden comes upon a scene of absolute slaughter. Cue the cyborg ninja.

Kojima and his team are smart enough to make the cloning of the plot from the first game appear to be nothing more than simple coincidence at first, but when you step back and look at what you’ve been doing it starts to worry you. It suddenly hits home when you/Raiden are taken prisoner and tortured, in a scene that’s visually identical to one from the previous game. It’s at this point that the big trick is sprung.

The game falls apart. Members of the backup team who’ve been in radio contact with you throughout the game up until this point begin to a bit... odd. The guy in charge starts telling you to turn the games console off, or provides advice on how to trim a clematis, or burbles gibberish about purple headed worms doing flip-flops in N-space, before his face is replaced by images from the very first Metal Gear game, circa 1987. Rose becomes similarly weird. Your radar suddenly becomes video footage of a woman lying on a deck chair.

You’re sneaking around naked at this point, balls cupped in hands.

The eventual revelation is this: the second game is a rerun of the first because that’s how it’s supposed to be. The people Raiden is working for aren’t Foxhound – Foxhound were disbanded after the events of the first game. Instead, the people running the show have set the entire thing up from the start. They’ve manufactured a terrorist threat based on the events at Shadow Moses – MGS1 – as they believe that the mission that took place there will provide the perfect training exercise for a future generation of super-soldiers.

You. The player. Not Raiden. The pollution control plant is in actuality a brand new, giant Metal Gear, this time designed to house the world’s most complex AI. And Raiden’s inside it. You’re inside the game, your actions being dictated by the program.

It’s an astounding idea. Somebody might be able to present examples of a similar trick from other media and claim that it’s passé, but games had never attempted this before. I don’t think anybody had even considered the possibility.

So here you are, in the game, and you’re now faced with examining your actions. Kojima’s holding a list of what you’ve done up to your face and saying, look, see how easy it is to turn you into a killer? Okay, so it’s a game and it’s not real, but d’you understand just how much I’ve managed to condition you? The guy’s openly asking you to question the validity of playing his own games as a leisure activity.

This is why Raiden’s such a non-entity. The intention is to provide a blank canvas onto which the player paints hir own features. That it fails to engage the player in the same way as having control of Snake does suggests something that I find very interesting - that it’s easier to get pulled into a game when you’re given control of a fully-formed character with their own backstory, their own destiny, their own personality, than it is with a blank avatar.

The fourth of the reasons why MGS2 is a mess, as well as being wonderful? That’s what happens next. Having revealed the true purpose of the game, having made his point and provided one of the most daring money shots games have ever seen, Kojima realises that he’s got a story that he needs to finish. But where do you go when you’ve not just broken the fourth wall, but smashed it into tiny little pieces and cemented over the foundations? In MGS2’s case, the answer is to turn the entire thing into a bizarre conspiracy tale, involving shadow governments, non-human lifeforms that live inside the White House (there’s a whole thing about how ideologies take on an existence of their own here, which is further hinted at in MGS3), memes and Internet piracy. It’s a real Spaghetti Junction of a conclusion, but it’s one that you can mould into some sort of shape if you’re determined enough to do so. There’s a pretty great story analysis FAQ over on GameFAQs which does a superb job of this, although it falls down badly on some of the other aspects of the story.

So then, discussion. There’s a *lot* of stuff here and I’d love to see this thread end up becoming a serious attempt to discuss it all. The way that breaking the fourth wall in a game can, if handled properly, increase the sense of immersion and actually solidify the illusion of reality. The use of complex narrative in games and how they can best be told without harming the more important gaming aspects. How narrative can add to a game.

And also, just how far is it possible to push narrative in games? Does MGS2 present a form that can be developed further in future, or is it a dead end? Does it suggest the possibility of an entirely new form of narrative that’s not been seen in any medium before? Now that the surprise has been sprung once, is there any way that something similar can be done in subsequent releases without appearing obvious?
 
 
nedrichards is confused
10:10 / 18.06.05
In the 'talking about MGS2' stakes I'm a big fan of "dreaming in an empty room" which is one of my favourite bits of writing about videogames EVAR. Frankly, I've never played the game but after reading this I'll put an order in for either the Xbox or GameCube versions, which one is better? Alsoand this isn't toally on topic so feel free to ignore but I don't mind spoliers for videogames at all as so much of the fun is in the playing the plot rather than watching the plot.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:56 / 18.06.05
The Cube game's a remake of the first MGS - the PSX one that was also ported onto the PC. MGS2 is Xbox or PS2 only. The Xbox version suffers from some very minor and almost unnoticable slowdown at the beginning, but if you've got the choice you might as well go for the PS2 one (the extended edition, MGS2: Substance).

I was meaning to link to that Insert Credit piece - the writer comes to the same sort of conclusions regarding the big postmodernist kick in the pants that it represents, but I can't agree at all with his theory that the AI in the game is supposed to represent the player. If that's the case, then there doesn't seem much point to the whole thing - it'd mean that rather than Kojima making a comment about how videogames affect the player, he's instead trying to provide the character, Raiden, with self-awareness. It's cute, but a bit of a waste of time.

it also fails to take into account the importance of the Patriots to the story. I wasn't going to bother with this, but might as well now. When Kojima attempts to wrestle the story back into some sort of order, after he's done the whole 'revealing the hand of the author' bit, the conspiracy plot that he ends up plumping for introduces the idea of a cabal working from inside the White House - the Patriots. They claim to have been a group of twelve people who've always been there, ruling from the shadows. They also claim that they're no longer human, which is a plot point that's - again - caused much confusion and anger amongst those who were expecting the game to be another spy thriller. As I say, there's a superb bit of reasoning in the Series Plot Analysis FAQ here (which also contains SPOILERS for all the games up to and including MG3) which suggests that the Patriots are ideas, that Kojima's making a comment about how ideas and beliefs can, when given enough power and room for growth, effectively become living entities themselves (actually, the author of that FAQ suggests that these memetic lifeforms live on through the computer AI that's at the heart of MGS2's story, but the principle is the same).

That, to me, fits in beautifully with the reading that I go for - that the AI in the game represents both Kojima and the game itself.

There's another reading of MGS2 that I forgot to mention - that it's a comment on the state of videogame sequels, where publishers and developers take the easiest route out and provide a virtual retelling of the previous game, simply giving it a slightly different coat of paint to try and mask their lack of effort.
 
 
The Strobe
13:21 / 18.06.05
For me, the Plant chapter is about telling a videogame in the third person.

Not as in the way Tomb Raider is third person; but simply that the main character is not the narrative voice.

Plant is, to be honest, all about Solid Snake. Which is why you play the whole damn thing as Raiden - because there are some things you can only understand about a character when you're not stuck in their head.

It's all about memetics; "if we stick a trained soldier into the same environment as Solid Snake, and keep all the variables the same, we'll get the same results - a super-soldier?"

Yes. You get a super-soldier.

But what you don't get is a hero. Solid Snake is a hero, and Raiden is not. And that's why I think Plant is still all about Snake, told from Raiden's viewpoint; because the story has to be about its hero, classically. Kojima himself put the "it's all about Snake, regardless of who you're playing as" thing into my mouth, I'm afraid.
 
 
Triplets
14:53 / 18.06.05
Now, despite this character setup, Raiden's actual identity carries
importance. Raiden was, in the mid-eighties, a child soldier fighting
under Solidus' command in the infamously vague 'civil war.'



But, weren't we all? During the 80s (the time of the first Metal Gear series) we were kids playing war games on the TV screen. If Raiden is a deliberate translation of the player into the game itself this is Kojima reflecting that back. With the Player Raiden being brought up on a steady dose of virtual warfare and conditioning.

If the Patriots, "GW" and Arsenal Gear are actually the game playing the player, I believe Kojima is saying, with Raiden and his Leon-esque scary, robot killer personality that it's not too hard to conceive of a world where children are raised as soldiers through a digital medium.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
02:52 / 19.06.05
Hi Spatula, long time, no post.

I have some answers for you, but since I'm holding onto the pipe dream of becoming a videogame designer, I cannot offer any explanations at this time. Apologies in advance if this post seems pedantic or facetious. I simply cannot reveal the game/narrative ideas I've spent the past six years developing. Although I found MGS2 a blithering mess (I hadn't played the first one at the time; and my opinion hasn't changed much in retrospect) your train of thought is most impressive.

Just how far is it possible to push narrative in games?

Nobody knows. Farther than most expect.

Does MGS2 present a form that can be developed further in future, or is it a dead end?

It's most certainly not.

Does it suggest the possibility of an entirely new form of narrative that’s not been seen in any medium before?

Yes.

Now that the surprise has been sprung once, is there any way that something similar can be done in subsequent releases without appearing obvious?

Yes. I'd argue there are a few games already on the market that are more ambiguous and less obvious. Capcoms Killer 7 looks to be in this vein.

I suspect the viability is a matter of degree and cleverness. Although, certain wells will almost certainly run dry sooner than others.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
03:52 / 19.06.05
I've misinterperted you;

Now that the surprise has been sprung once, is there any way that something similar can be done in subsequent releases without appearing obvious?

You mean other Metal Gears. I don't think so. At the very least, none of the narrative ideas I've come up with will work in a sequal.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:01 / 19.06.05
Paleface: Kojima himself put the "it's all about Snake, regardless of who you're playing as" thing into my mouth, I'm afraid.

That's alright - it doesn't make other readings invalid, because MGS2's story is a layered one. Iirc, the author of the Insert Credit piece claims to have put his reading to Kojima, who said that yeah, he was on the right lines. To the best of my knowledge he's also on record as having said in different interviews that it's about memes, Napster and/or the restriction of information.

Molly: I've misinterperted you

Nah, you read it right the first time - I meant the trick of providing a narrative that appears to be relatively straightforwards at first, then turning around and twisting that within full view of the audience, in any game.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
02:07 / 20.06.05
n the 'talking about MGS2' stakes I'm a big fan of "dreaming in an empty room" which is one of my favourite bits of writing about videogames EVAR.

Oof. Conversely, this is mine.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:23 / 20.06.05
A piece of whining opposed to creativity and imagination? Why am I not surprised?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:43 / 20.06.05
A peice of brilliantly judged vitriol perfectly designed to make the new journalisim crowd feel all dirty inside and stick 'em on the defensive, actually.

Anyway, I have a paper trail of URLs surrounding that UKR article and I think the whole NGJ trend deserves a thread unto itself. Let's you and I abstain from another shit war and not post back here until we've actually PLAYED Metal Gear Solid 2, shall we?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
13:06 / 20.06.05
Actually, I should probably post again about Snatcher. It's kind of a text adventure with lush anime graphics (at least, on Mega CD) and a few attempts to break the fourth wall (there's a club full of people dressed as old Komani icons, discussion of those characters and the main characters discussing whether they'll ever be that cool, and a bit where your mate Metal Gear* tells you to turn the volume right up on the TV then chides you later because you just deafened yourself, having forgotten to turn the volume down).

Criticaly, it does this without ruining the experience of playing a game. I've yet to play MGS2, but I've heard many that were openly disgruntled by the "plot" and all the meme headfucking. I'm going to pick the game up used this week so I can yay or nay that for myself.

Anyway, Snatcher can be emulated. And I have the files. Anyone with a Gmail account please get in touch, and I'll send 'em and explain how you go about setting up Kega Fusion to play it.



*Your buddy in the game is Metal Gear
 
 
iamus
13:34 / 20.06.05
I think MGS2 kind of shoots itself in the foot. After feeding such ideas into the narrative so well it doesn't capitalise on them but instead takes them on to their illogical confusion.

On the first play through, the similarity to the first game really niggled. It wasn't until the torture chamber that things started to get clever and the game really showed itself. I tried resetting the console, knowing how the first MGS had broken the fourth wall in such a way and I got suckered. Then later, when the Solid Snake Simulation reading of the S3 program comes up, the similarities to the previous game are revealed as a clever trick. After finishing the game though, this trick left a bad taste in my mouth for two reasons.

Firstly, at the end of the day it's an excuse for a retread. Clever tricks or not, it recycles gameplay and narrative we've already seen before. This would be Ok if the payoff did something with it. But..

Point two. At precisely the point where we and Jack become aware of this the game should branch out into something else, to better highlight the trick. It doesn't, instead we get a depressingly similar end fight (not aided by the confusion of removed cut-scenes), loooooooooooong tracks of dialogue, and a bit of a "was that it" ending.
I'm willing to believe that the enforced fight with Solidus is to demonstrate the Patroits true meaning of S3, which was societal control and to further hammer home Kojima's point of conditioning the player (even though you might want to put down the sword, you can't. I wonder how many players decided "Fuck it!" and stopped playing the game out of principle).

I just don't think these two messages were squared off as well as the could/should have been. In fact used like this, I think they work against each other, deflating the ending and undermining some of the great ideas that came before. (Though the less said about Liquid Snake's arm, the better).

Oh and on the topic of Cyberballs' link. I think it has some valid points, some of that is what annoyed me in Steven Poole's Edge column. But worryingly, the writer of the linked piece doesn't seem to realise how pompous and self-important he himself sounds.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
13:58 / 20.06.05
Actually, they're just completely embittered. UK*R is written by a guy (guys?) who got a Saturn for the love of Sega and then, well...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
14:02 / 20.06.05
Another useful link
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:04 / 20.06.05
Mel> I agree in part with your second point, but I can see why it almost had to be that way. There's a franchise to keep running, which is why they try and squeeze everything back into the box, force things back into a traditional narrative structure, when you get to the part where Snake takes on Fortune while the player goes off and does something else. They fail, yeah - the game becomes a victim of its own ambition in the end.

Your first point is something that I'd hoped we'd get to - it raises the question of whether or not there was any way that Konami could have sidestepped the problem of asking the player to make their way through a story that, for the most part, is a repeat of the previous one without it feeling like just a rerun. Again, it almost has to be that way.

You find a similar issue in something like the Robot Factory level in Timesplitters 2. Free Radical try and parody the dull, grey, repetitive nature of the majority of console first-person-shooters at the time, with their robot enemies devoid of character, levels that are so unremarkable that you never know where the hell you are in them, weapons that lack punch or pizzazz, etc. The problem is that they have to include these elements for the parody to work, and it leaves the level being dull, grey, repetitive... It's similar to MGS2, because both games have the referencing of other games as their foundations.
 
 
iamus
14:04 / 20.06.05
A complete plot summary & analysis of the Metal Gear series by Grant Morrissey.

Somebody knows this messageboard far too well.
 
 
rising and revolving
15:22 / 20.06.05
I understand and appreciate many of the narrative directions MGS2 took. I also contend that it's filled with some absolutely incompetent design decisions that conspire to deliver an (at times) actively hostile experience to the player - and not in the clever clever intentional fashion, either. The same goes (and double) for MGS3, which I think is a crying shame.

That said, Metal Gear definately wasn't the first game to have lengthy, filmic cinemas (Final Fantasy games had been doing it for a long while) it *was* the best to work the oft-ignored bridge between the actual gameplay and the non-interactive sequences.

However, this sneaks back to the topic of choice raised in the other thread. The Metal Gear games offer very few choices, in general. You progress (often in one of two or three ways, admittedly - but it's largely the same two or three throughout) and then you get the next cinema.

An exception to this is MGS3's fight with The End, which I know you've riffed on elsewhere. Undeniably the best thing Kojima has done - it's just a shame how much of the important pieces of Metal Gear games aren't the game, per se, but the trappings that hang around it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:25 / 20.06.05
it's filled with some absolutely incompetent design decisions

Such as? I'm especially interested in what you think's wrong in MGS3 - the menu system is intrusive and can get frustrating, but besides that I can't think of anything that I noticed.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:15 / 20.06.05
Sorry. Forgot to reply to this eariler.

Mel: (Though the less said about Liquid Snake's arm, the better).

I loved that and I can't understand why others hate it so much. It's Kojima adding The Hands of Orlac to the series' long list of film references, and it's not like it's the first time when something unexplained has happened in the game's universe. Psycho Mantis makes just about as much sense as Liquid being able to communicate through Ocelot, but you don't hear anybody complaining about him. It's also something that's (possibly) explained in MGS3 when you consider Ocelot's parentage.
 
 
rising and revolving
16:34 / 20.06.05
I've played 3 most recently, so let me throw some examples out there - admittedly I only played it just past the fight w/ The End before getting so frustrated I took it back - but here are some examples.

A map that you need to use frequently requires a load delay before coming up.

Frequent menu based gaming in order to not bleed to death, often requiring the application of multiple items, in a not-especially user-friendly fashion and in the middle of combat.

The modality w/ the camera and being spotted by people offscreen. Not only that, the controls switch when you change vision modes - up while in top down mode does a completely different thing to up in FPS mode, resulting in lots of looking at the floor and stand-up/lie down antics when they're least desired.

Fiddly nature of radio : when you get a call, it should be a one button matter to respond, not back into the menus, yet again.

Different buttons to back out of different menus - from memory, the button you use to back out of most of the screens doesn't work in the map screen. For no reason, they've arbitarily assigned another button altogether to exit the map.

Did I mention the camera, and how much of a PITA it is to get spotted by people offscreen? I probably did, but still. It goes double.

Those are the quick ones that spring to mind. If I was to play it for another couple of hours, I'm sure I could come up with a handful more.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:32 / 20.06.05
Some of those are definitely valid - I'd already put my reply to you up for moderation to include mention of the menus, which are mainly a nuisance when changing your camouflage and topping up your stamina.

I haven't seen a real need for the map screen in either of the runs that I've done, other than when fighting The End, because the map only displays areas that you've already covered - I found it much easier just to take note of my surroundings. As far as the loading goes, I'd consider that a hardware issue, rather than a problem with the game itself.

Intrusion View can be an arse, I agree, although my main gripe with it is that you have no choice in the matter. I don't know what the thinking was behind forcing the player into first-person when crawling through grass.

The Codec does only require one button to activate - Select - and it's seperate from the menus. I'm not too sure what the complaint is there.

I was talking with Paleface about the Cure screen a few weeks back, and he mentioned reading something that suggested that it's supposed to be a bit of a pain to get to - you're not meant to get hurt in the first place, so when you do the awkward means of curing damage works as both a punishment for and a deterrent to carelessness. I didn't agree at the time, but on reflection I think there's some truth to it - in both previous games, you could simply run hell for leather through the rooms, taking the odd bullet here and there, safe in the knowledge that you had five health-refilling rations just a trigger button away. I suspect that quite a number of people played them this way, given the complaints about longevity that the original attracted.

But yeah, when you take the fact that stamina depletion is an automatic thing, though, and requires the odd trip into the menu to sort out regardless of how careful you are, it makes it a design decision that is a bit more difficult to defend.

(That said, stamina depletion varies depending on how much kit you've got attributed to the quick select triggers, which is something that I didn't realise until my second run - when you're aware of that and take care not to overburden Snake with unnecessary kit, you only really need visit the menu for food once every eight minutes or so.)

Your other points can be countered by saying that they enforce the stealth/survival thing - they make sure that the situation mentioned above, where the player ignores the purpose of the game and instead tries to play it like a standard third-person adventure, doesn't happen. You won't get spotted by enemies off-screen if you've been careful to hide in the grass or camouflage yourself most effectively (getting your camo rating up to 75% is always possible, regardless of location, which is high enough to avoid all enemies just so long as you don't move) and check out their patrol routes from a distance with the binoculars or sniper scope, for example.

These were things that I disliked at first, because I was trying to play it as I did the previous two games. But enemies no longer have as restricted a cone of vision - if you don't want to be seen, you absolutely have to take it one step at a time. Crawl into cover, scout out the area, time the guard's patrol route, only make your move once you can predict where he's going to be looking with total accuracy. It's not the rather gung-ho interpretation of 'stealth' that we've seen before - it's a much more precise, considered thing, and is meant to be played as such. In a lot of ways, it's quite like playing the previous games on Extreme difficulty without the radar.

There is one problem that I'd highlight besides the menus, which is the 'silent movement' function. For a few hours I was trying to tiptoe up behind enemies and make use of all the new close-quarters combat stuff, but failed every time due to being heard when I was still ten feet away from them. Had to ask on another board before I discovered that silent movement is assigned to the d-pad, not the analogue stick. That's a decision that I can't think of a single decent justification for - they could easily have made the analogue capable of more than just two movement speeds, and having silent movement on the d-pad means that it becomes clunky, suddenly restricting you to only eight directions.

Knowing these things can make a lot of difference to how much you get from the game. It's just a shame that the alterations to the play mechanics between 3 and 1/2 aren't explained properly in the game itself, because once you understand them the game opens up considerably.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
21:42 / 20.06.05
Have you played the Gameboy Color game, Spatula? It ends with something like "well done, Jack, you are now as good as Solid Snake was at the time of the fortress galude incident", kind of setting up MGS 2 by implying the whole thing was a training sim. The continuity doesn't match, but it's still pretty interesting, and a fun enough game.
 
 
iamus
22:53 / 20.06.05
ARRGH! Just wrote a huge post and then lost it. I'll try to recall most of what I was going to say.

I'm still not convinced about the ending to MGS2. I think there are a lot of ways that all the fourth wall stuff could have been incorporated into the gameplay and narrative than the way they were. I think the problem was not so much what was being said, but the game buckling under the sheer number of ideas being put forth.

I think Kojima has many great ideas and a great knowledge of how to express them in gameplay terms, but I think he often has too many. This is why we have rambling cut-scenes and conversations that go on for half an hour at a time. Much of it reads like stream-of-conciousness, Kojima thinking out loud.

This is especially evident in MGS2. The future scenario gives him carte blanche to run riot with all these mad ideas. It gives us some of the most inspired moments in videogames but it also generates a lot of fat that only threatens to confuse things if you don't keep on top of it. There is so much at times that the wandering stuff threatens to bury the on-point stuff.

I think that the move back to the Sixties is an inspired one. Being confined to a specific time, political situation and level of technology forces Kojima to pull back on the reigns. As well as benifiting the gameplay by making the gadgets cruder, the series benifits from exploring backstory. It's getting to grips with what is really being said, adding foundation to build on rather than grasping further and further into the future unsure of where it's going.

It's a good thing Kojima decided to stay on after MGS2. I think that rather than being a proper evolution of number 1, 2 just adds complexity to it. My main fear was that using only these two as an example, whoever was continuing the franchise would see it strangle itself under the weight of its own ideas and the repitition of a template. MGS3 shows how to take the series in fresh directions while still staying true to the core mechanic.

With regards to Liquid's arm..... It just didn't work for me, and I'm not sure why. I think Mantis works because he's built up that way, the general mood and tone leading up to his confrontation makes you expect him. I like The End and The Sorrow for similar reasons, but that arm just seemed to come out of nowhere and tip the scales to the wrong side. Perhaps with better justification I wouldn't have minded, but I just couldn't get it to sit right.
 
 
The Strobe
07:33 / 21.06.05
Liquid's arm worked for me better than Psycho Mantis. Really. I hated Psycho Mantis. I could cope with everything else, but that was just too much. Liquid's arm, by contrast, simply contributed to the live-action-anime feel the whole thing had, and I could at least enjoy. Mantis was just a notch too silly - and I say this loving not only Liquid's arm, but Solidus' tentacle suit, and all of the Arsenal Gear stuff until the Ray-fight, and who the Ninja really is.

Frequent menu based gaming in order to not bleed to death, often requiring the application of multiple items, in a not-especially user-friendly fashion and in the middle of combat.

Spatula's mentioned my opinion on this, though I stole it from Tim Rogers after he had discussed 3 with Kojima. Basically, as Spatula said: this opinion suggests that being hurt is a real pain in the arse, and therefore curing it should be equally laborious. I'm not sure "clumsy" was quite as far as Kojima wanted to go, but the laborious nature of healing wounds in the Cure menu could be viewed as an attempt to warn the player off taking hits. As you get better at the game, you see the Cure screen less, and you enjoy it more as a result. (I'm still waiting to play MGS3 - I don't own a PS2 and a port doesn't look forthcoming this time).
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
08:27 / 21.06.05
One of my friends went from hating MGS3 with a burning passion to loving the entire series as a result of only ever playing it stoned.

Not that I've been able to confirm that, but I'm sure there are some that might want to try.
 
 
The Falcon
12:27 / 21.06.05
I ran out of grass on my birthday, when I got MGS3, and enjoyed it - I think - more, simply for the adrenal thrill without.

Diff'rent strokes, and all that. My big tip is thermal goggles, dudes.

I really want to get MGS2, which I completed a few years back, and play through again now. I was completely blown away, especially when it started going "come on, now, you've been playing nine hours straight. Switch off."
 
 
nedrichards is confused
22:07 / 30.06.05
My copy of MGS2:Substance arrived today. Wish me luck.
 
 
The Strobe
08:56 / 01.07.05
Enjoy. Don't get RSI from having to click the left stick in so much. And don't hold the left stick too tight in case you click it when you don't mean to. Enjoy. I hope you hate Vamp as much as I do by the time you're done.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:36 / 16.09.05
Trailer for MGS4

Extremely excited about this. "An old man exhausted of battle." Yes - that's *exactly* how this story show pan out.

Finding it difficult to stop myself coming over all fanboy about it. The little robot that Otacon's controlling is Metal Gear - Metal Gear from Snatcher, which is making me wonder if/hope that Kojima's going to use MGS4 to tie the series' continuity together. It's also got me excited for the prospect of a remake of Snatcher, or an English language version of Policenauts (pseudo-sequel to Snatcher and a game that features an appearance from MGS1's Meryl Silverburg).

Plus the promise of the Metal Gear loose ends being rounded off. What's happened to Olga's baby? What did Naomi do to the FoxDie virus?

Guns of the Patriots. Yes, yes, yes.
 
 
Triplets
15:54 / 16.09.05
What's happened to Olga's baby?

Well, we've seen super-baby and child soldier corps being setup already in the MGSU. My guess is, the Patriots might have been training their own snake (b)eater.

Twisty twist: or Snake rescued Olga Jnr and is raising his own philanthropist girl super-soldier.

What did Naomi do to the FoxDie virus?

Apparently, she changed it to go off at a random time. Snake's no longer a prisoner of his (Liquid's, Solidus', Big Boss') genetics. At least in that regard.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:11 / 16.09.05
Spoilers for MGS3 from hereon in.



I can't remember if you've played MGS3, Trips (I presume so), but yeah, it's explicitly stated there that the Patriots have their own schools in which they train kids to become agents. That's the whole thing with Ocelot being The Boss's child, nabbed by the Patriots as soon as he was born - it's set up as a direct parallel to Olga's situation. It's doubtful that Ocelot (or Liquid in Ocelot's body, or however that character's going to be dealt with) is going to be able to provide Snake with a physical rival now, so your guess would make sense - Olga Jnr as a replacement menace. It's smart that they've not told us exactly how many years have passed since the Big Shell incident - leaves a lot of room for speculation and guesswork. That this game would directly follow the events of MGS2 always seemed obvious to me, but that's obviously not the case now.

Ocelot (or Liquid, or whoever) is still there, though - there's that promotional poster they showed at E3 with the main cast line-up on it. Naomi, Meryl, Ocelot/Liquid, Olga (third from left, I think, which is as good a hint as any that her kid's going to play a part in this). The most exciting is the figure that looks like Big Boss - quite how they can bring him back to the series is currently beyond me, but he'd give the series a real sense of... solidity? I can't think of the word right now. It'd round everything off nicely, though, what with MGS3 telling the story of how the entire saga began. He should be there at the end, and as we've not had remakes of the original games yet, Kojima'll find it easier to bring him back to life.

Apparently, she changed it to go off at a random time.

Is that ever made clear? In the PS version she doesn't say that - Snake asks her what she did, how long he's got left to live and her answer is something along the lines of "you've got the same as everybody gets - a lifetime." Up until now I've presumed that she killed it, that she injected him with a duff dosage, and that she's effectively telling him as much - when you die, it won't be because of anything I've done here. Is the script in Twin Snakes different?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:44 / 18.04.06
So, moving on to MSG3, Oddman posted elsewhere:

I recently purchased the re-release of Metal Gear Solid 3, subtitled Subsistence. It is Snake Eater, but with a completely new optional camera angle, as well as a second disc, which carries on it the original MSX Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 games.

But that's not all, folks: The single coolest addition is the brand spanking new Metal Gear Online mode. Finally, we can play out Snake vs. Ocelot battles with friends and enemies from across the world.

This is my current favorite game. The single-player campaign is amazing. This convoluted and clever conspiracy sets up the entire mythology for the rest of the series.

I plan on writing a review for this game once I finish it, so I will link to that, when it comes about.

Now, I want to hear what other people think of this game. Talk about your single-player exploits; Boss Battle tips; Share Online stories of how you totally pwned n00bs; Your thoughts on the storyline...Anything and everything MGS3 goes here, people. So let's begin.

(And, for any potential spoilers, please give warnings. We don't want to turn some on to this game, only to have the ending ruined and sending them off to find some other, lesser game to put their time into).


We've been talking a lot about the narrative of MSG - how does a pure shooty online mode strike everyone? Is it what you come to MGS for, these days - stealthing up behind someone and whacking them?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:45 / 20.04.06
Well, there's been a trend with certain publishers recently to have the offline and online modes of their games developed deperately. The rough flavour of the gameplay remains intact - the different teams are still working off the same basic brief, after all - but the two modes do end up offering significantly different experiences. At best, they'll complement each other well. At worst, it'll still be a superb single player game. Either way, if it were only the online game in the package it'd be a pointless purchase - the online will require knowledge and appreciation of the single player mode to get the most out of, I should think.

Is it what I'd want from MGS? No. Is it what I'd want from an online mods in an MGS game? Yeah, it sounds a lot like it. I think it could work really well - the camouflage system in MGS3's main game is surprisingly effective, quite capable of leaving you wondering where the hell you left Snake if you get distracted and take your eyes of the screen. Less about stealthing up behind other players and more about hiding in plain view. It being a PS2 game, though, I'm unlikely to find out if it works for myself - there are too many hoops to jump through to get the PS2 online.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
16:44 / 27.04.06
This may not be in the spirit of the thread, but I couldn't find anywhere else to post it, and it seems a shame to start a whole new thread, so...

Colonel Volgin is kicking my ass in MGS3, to the point where I haven't played in weeks because I'm so frustrated. I'm trying to beat him non-lethally so I can get a sweet new uniform, and I have no problem avoiding his attacks. It just seems that I can't get his stamina down before the time limit runs out and everything explodes. Any advice?
 
  

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