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Over-rated books

 
  

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This Sunday
02:22 / 20.06.05
Am I the only person who has to almost fight not to loathe a book (or whatever) after someone describes it as or possessing 'magical realism'? What, exactly, does this mean other than 'my fantastical magicky piece fiction I'm reading is more realistic, developed, intelligent than your pathetic magickal fantasy fiction, which is fake,' or whatever? We need to say 'crap characterization' or 'excellent characterization', 'lacking in proper plot development' or 'perfectly pausible and amazing plotting', 'brilliant wording' or 'horribly pedestrian prose'. Something other than magickal realism.

It is just me, isn't it. I fear I may need some pounds and proper chin/lip hair, so my possible inner fatbeardness can be physically made clear.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:01 / 20.06.05
'Magical realism' is a name for a genre; like all other names for genres it stops having a direct connection to the literal meaning of the words about five minutes after someone first uses it as such...
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:11 / 20.06.05
Most of my favourite books could be described as "magical realism", which books in particular are you referring to Daytripper?
 
 
slinkyvagabond
12:29 / 20.06.05
Yes, unfortunately a lot of people shudder at the term 'magic/al realism', because it immediately flags up notions of whimsy and possibly of fevered visions brought on by the blazing S. American sun, as one lies on the verandah on a day bed. But I prefer to see magic realism as describing the strange things we see/feel/think regularly. Perhaps other people do not expereince these strange things in the same way as we do - they are the sights we catch out of the corner of our eyes or the incongruity between our thoughts and a situation. These expereinces are grounded in reality (hence the 'realism' part) as we experience it in our everyday lives, we do not think we're going mad when they occur but we understand that they are soething a little beyond regular perceived reality. Books in this genre, to me, try to catch that sense of dislocation without dissolution and if they are successful they do this without becoming detached from their own internal logic. I love a good sci-fi or fantasy book just as much as I love a good 'magic realism' (god, how clunky) but I won't accept the whole genre being derided - too many people see it as 'girly' and whimsical and that just pisses me off.

For the record, I just read Lanark and enjoyed it for the most part. An amazing feat - especially as a first novel - but overrated in spades. I say this beacuse although it is imaginative and illuminating, there are just so many long, didactic speeches. Plus the fantastical elements allow Gray not to fully characterise - the warped passage of time in the incalendrical zones means that we don't really see characters 'grow' and Lanark himself never really changes, which is unsatisfactory. I wish I didn't find his statis unsatisfactory, as it makes me feel like I'm kowtowing to those horrible 'How to Write' books, which ceaselessly reinforce the need for character development. Sadly, I'm with those nasty books on this one. Fantasy certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse not to characterise or plot.
 
 
This Sunday
17:57 / 20.06.05
I like quite a bit of things called 'magical realism' I just loathe the term. Because it is not awfully descriptive. It's an excuse not to say 'fantasy' or 'fanstastical' or 'not entirely the sort of thing you'd expect to happen in the really real world, but that's because this is, oh yes, fiction'. It's a genre that is utterly indistinguishable from anything else literary (or aiming at being literary) given a nice name to separate it in a bookstore and make some people feel better about buying fantasy if they don't have to stand next to the books with the naked barbarian bikinigirl covers.
Seriously.
Is Harlan Ellison writing 'magical realism'? Borges? Nabokov? Are 'Like Water for Chocolate' or 'Dhalgren' or one of those 'Wingman' novels magical realism?
Is 'magical realism' just literary fantasy in a modern/pseudo-modern setting? Fantasy with some good lines and a prosaic set of details of living involved?
I just find it a bullshit label, rather than an identifiable genre.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:24 / 21.06.05
I always figured it was more of a technique than a genre...
 
 
JohnnyThunders
04:40 / 22.06.05
How about the puerile piece of tortuously unfunny wank that is A Confederacy of Dunces? It’s as unlovable a novel as can be imagined. Mainly because of it’s malevolent fat fuck of a protagonist...delusional, dogmatic, arrogant and pretentious, completely bereft of any redeeming characteristics... but Toole’s woefully overblown prose is just as off putting. The whole thing’s just a headache inducing exercise in narcissism.

Clearly if Toole hadn’t killed himself, and if it hadn’t taken a decade for the novel to get published, no one would actually give a fuck. But that’s not reason enough for caring; just because you get a shit book rejected by a few publishers doesn’t mean you should go commit suicide. And in fact, the book wasn’t rejected outright.. the publisher just requested some changes. Which is what publishers do, and this book might have actually benefited from a decent editor and some (extensive) revisions. So it appears that Toole was just as petty and melodramatic as Ignatius.

Ok that last bit was a bit harsh. I’m sure there were other factors impacting upon his decision to top himself. But suffice to say, I hated the book.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:03 / 22.06.05
Sorry, but I can't agree JT. 'A Confederacy of Dunces' is (IMHO) a great and very funny novel.

Mainly because of it’s malevolent fat fuck of a protagonist...delusional, dogmatic, arrogant and pretentious, completely bereft of any redeeming characteristics...

Which was why I liked it. Also, I think that was the writer's intention. And come on, Ignatius J. Reilly is a great character and there's a little if him in all of us here on Barbelith, no?

So it appears that Toole was just as petty and melodramatic as Ignatius.

Again, I think Mr Toole was perfectly aware of this and was being deliberate in many ways. i.e. the autobiographical element in all fiction.

However, of course, this is all a matter of personal taste, but..... You're wrong ya dunce! (joke, joke - I promise)

BTW, I heard a while ago there is film adaptation of 'A Confederacy of Dunces' in the works? I was a little gutted when I heard this, as I'm not sure if the style would transfer to the screen. Anyway, anybody heard any recent news of this? (Sorry for the thread-rot)
 
 
JohnnyThunders
03:32 / 23.06.05
Oh, I don’t doubt that that was Toole’s intention, but my own personal preferences prevent me from liking, even appreciating, a novel with such an objectionable and obnoxious protagonist. Admittedly there are plenty of other literary characters equally as ‘delusional, dogmatic, arrogant and pretentious’ as Ignatius, whom I have no problem with, but they all have something which I can identify with, or at the very least something which inspires interest.

But Toole chooses to make Ignatius so utterly repulsive... it’s as if he’s taunting the reader, giving us nothing to hold onto, nothing to make us care. I don’t expect to like every character I read about, but it’d be nice to be able to empathise with some of them just a little bit; without that kind of engagement I find that reading stops being pleasurable.

And Ignatius is such a mammoth character, in both size and personality, that he dominates the book, so it stands to reasons that if you can’t stomach him then you won’t be able to stomach the novel. And it’s not as if I have especially refined tastes; vulgarity per se doesn’t bother me, but absolute vulgarity, bereft of any virtue, and with a shit load of self-exaltation to boot, ain’t my cup of tea.

And then there’s the convoluted prose which I mentioned before, Toole’s total, and I think embarrassing, inability to maintain momentum and sustain interest, and the fact that it’s not actually funny, which is quite problematic for a novel which purports to be a comedy.

But it’s all subjective, and I’m willing to concede that I might be completely missing the point... but when you say that you like Ignatius for the same reasons I say I hate him, I’m baffled. So please elaborate; I’m very interested to know why people love this book so much, so feel free to sway me from my suspicion that ‘C of D’ is proof that you really can fool all the people all the time.
 
 
matthew.
17:33 / 01.07.05
A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius by Dave Eggers is unbelievably over rated.

Sort of a memoir, this book follows orphans Dave Eggers and his brother "Toph" as they try to make ends meet without their parents. Nice little idea, but it's the execution that fails.

Dave Eggers was touted to be the most gifted novelist the world had seen in a long time. His bag of literary tricks was ginormous, and he's supposedly "funny".

Yeah, I don't think so. His constant barrage of literary tricks is really just trickery for the sake of trickery, like an acknowledgements page that stretches on for twenty pages and features a random picture of a staple. It's that kind of "hey look at me, I can do weird things with a novel" kind of games that bore me. It's all very smug.

There is a scene in which Eggers uses the form of a play to act out the scene. It's mildly humorous, but nothing profound or inventive. I immediately made the comparison to Neal Stephenson's Quicksilver, in which he does the same thing, use a play as the narrative, and it's much more effective, because it's in context. What Eggers is missing, is context for his tricks. Who cares if he can write a sentence underneath musical notes? What does it matter to the story?

Anyway, I much prefer Egger's archnemesis, James Frey and A Million Little Pieces. (Or, are they friends now? I remember a time when they hated each other. Correct me if I'm wrong)
 
 
beefer
11:33 / 03.07.05
The Power.book by Jeanette Winterson. Totally, appallingly bad. A writer who "loves language" (a writerly cliché that always makes me cringe) but who fails to convey coherent meaning through it. Why is she so revered? Her writing is pointless, snobbish and pretentious.

In my line of work I have to review a lot of very bad lesbian fiction, and the work of Katherine V. Forrest is also up there on my list on overrated books. Her books, Daughters of a Coral Dawn, and Daughters of an Amber Noon (kaff kaff, splutter, groan) are, apparently, lesbian classics. So bad they're good? Not even that, just plain BAD. Midnight's Children is a breeze in comparison. I dare you to read them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:36 / 03.07.05
So, what was it about the Powerbook that you disliked, and would you say that it exemplified faults common to Winterson or that they were specific to this book? I found it rather simple, in theme and style...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:18 / 03.07.05
I didn't like The Powerbook either. I admit that I never finished it so I can't provide a particularly accurate review but I found the part that I did read quite disjointed and incoherent and there was nothing to inspire me to continue with it.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:11 / 03.07.05
About the Dave Eggers- I dunno, I thought the whole book was supposed to be taking the piss, what with all those gimmicks. I thought it was meant to ridicule the sort of "heart-felt personal story" type of book. I'd need to re-read before I decide if it suceeds.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
21:17 / 03.07.05
I came here to post about the Dave Eggers as well, but from a completely different angle... I'd expected to dislike it as well, for all the various reasons above; that title, the fact that his style comes off as knowing -but I ended up (after the introduction, and preface) enjoying it a great deal. I thought that despite the stylistic tricks, it was sincere, that it was a an interesting portrait of what it's like for a parent (or in this case, both) to die when you're old enough to live alone but still don't really want to. I also though that the writing style was very much how he might actually think -that he really is that self aware most of the time, and that he really does mythologise his life as he lives it. I can quite understand why you'd hate it, but I think that he's ridiculing himself more than he is anyone else...
 
 
Golias
06:32 / 04.07.05
The Bible. Its full of contradiction and lists.Even the smattering of magic and bloodletting can't save it from being terminally dull.
That and The Gormenghast novels.....Yawwwn!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:04 / 04.07.05
I bought a cookbook the other day. Boring rubbish! Full of lists of ingredients and pictures of bread. What's all that about?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:14 / 04.07.05
Then I bought a gardening book. One of the plants was called 'Wolfsbane', but it didn't tell me how to use it in spells. Shit!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:37 / 04.07.05
I actually reckon a lot of cookbooks based on celebrity cooks (sudden moment of shocking realisation: celebrity cooks?!?) are overrated in that there's this whole lifestyle buzz around them: Buy this book! Re-evaluate! Re-invigorate! Fresh Start! New Life! Get Away From The Horrible 21st Century World! New Age Health Farm In Your Kitchen! etc.

Fine. If you're a middle class Nigella Lawson wannabe who lives in an area where you can actually get Organic Thai Green Asparagus Cubes. And if you can afford to spend lots of £££'s on a cookery book. And if you come from a book-buying circle of friends who would actually put any value in posh cooking.

Whereas if you're anything lower on the economic food chain, the chances are it's turkey drummers all round. Yeah? Tell me that wasn't a highly personal rant.
 
 
Loomis
11:53 / 04.07.05
I bought a book about trolls and it had Flyboy on the cover.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
17:17 / 04.07.05
... but when you say that you like Ignatius for the same reasons I say I hate him, I’m baffled. So please elaborate; I’m very interested to know why people love this book so much, ...

I guess it's because when I read it (which was over ten years ago now) I was so very sick of narratives by and about writers which try to make the protagonist fallible while still maintaining a cool sheen. Ignatius was so very loathsome and self-aggrandising it was refreshing and I admired Mr Toole for being so honest. After all, there's more than a sprinkling of ego and arrogance involved in being an artist of any kind. It reminded me of Fante's 'Bandini' books except that the protagonist's arrogance had been pushed to the limit.

e.g. The scenes of Ignatius stuffing his filthy, fat face with greasy hot-dogs while looking at the rest of the world as an uncultured "confederacy of dunces" was (IMHO) pure genius. Reminds me of watching Elton John and David Beckham talking about world poverty at the Live8 concert.

I also liked that almost ALL the characters (except for the only black character in the book) were so horrible and f**ked up; more true to life than many fictions I could mention. Now, of course, I know writers are supposed to make their characters appealing in some way, but I don't think this has to be so important a consideration and risks being very patronising to the reader. After all, most of the interesting (though maybe not likeable) characters in life and throughout history have been TOTAL c**ts. Indeed, it annoys me sometimes that readers (apparently) feel the need to identify with and empathise with protagonists to enjoy a story. This is (IMHO) selfish and small minded (although please note, this is not directed at anybody in particular!). I mean, we're all human (I think), so isn't that enough? Do we always have to find something of "us" in "them" to be able to understand another soul? And haven't we all done something bad at some point in our tiny lives.

For example, I once wrote a story about a total chauvinist wanker getting his comeuppance and gave it to a friend to read, and my friend gave it back to me saying:

"I couldn't identify with your main character, Sidney Manners. I just didn't care enough about him to like him." To which I replied,

"Good. I should hope not. The man's a c**t."

Of course, my friend is partly right and I don't enjoy reading through a whole book about people I couldn't care less about (e.g. any of Jane Austin's books), but I have and I do because I don't think that my particular type of personage is that great either. Indeed, I was hoping that any future readers of my aforementioned story would actually enjoy watching somebody they could hate being taught a lesson he would never forget.

As for style, etc ...

e.g. And then there’s the convoluted prose which I mentioned before, Toole’s total, and I think embarrassing, inability to maintain momentum and sustain interest, ...

... it was so long ago when I read it, that I couldn't possibly comment in detail. However, like I typed, I remember enjoying it and having no problems with the prose.

Hope that answers your questions JT.

Best wishes.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
17:32 / 04.07.05
Also, in respect of Mr Toole's prose: maybe you weren't in the right mood to read that particular style? Many a time I've tried to read a book and put it down because I didn't like the prose, then returned to it at a later date and devoured it in a single sitting. e.g. I had problems with Camus and Borges at first, but now they are two of my all-time greats (although these two examples may have been to do with different translations).

Of course, I couldn't possibly know either way if this is what happened when you read 'A Confederacy of Dunces', but I thought I should mention it, just in case it was relevant.

BTW, sorry everyone if all this is considered to be Threadrot.
 
 
ibis the being
22:13 / 05.07.05
Oh God, Eggers - the very definition of overrated. AHWOSG, as the kids call it, is the literary equivalent of Blues Traveler's "Hook." A book that expressly states it's abusing a battery of cheap tricks and gimmicks to appeal to the public's attraction to cheap tricks and gimmicks, as if the admission somehow - elevates it? Nah.

To me one of the more surprisingly overrated authors is DH Lawrence. I picked up Sons and Lovers and was frankly astonished at the writing. It was bad, clumsy, awkward, so unsubtle. It was like reading a book written by a high school senior - some good ideas and some potential, but unbearably amateurish in execution.
 
 
matthew.
00:04 / 06.07.05
Has anybody read Egger's You Shall Know Our Velocity or whatever tripe it's called? I want to know if it's ridiculous over rated, too.
 
 
Digital Hermes
22:12 / 13.07.05
In addition to Eggers 'Staggering Genius' is 'Jimmy Corrigan: Smartest Kid on Earth.' A graphic novel made up of minutia, besides being so slice-of-life it's an autopsy, drowns in you in details, and his graphic-design inspired layouts. I can understand wanting to break out of the superhero form, but to go from exciting to bland?

(I know this is a book forum, not comics, but it seems over-rated to me... if not, sorry about the threadrot.)

Alan Moore's 'A Small Killing' finds a way to make slice-of-life glow, and seem poingnant and important, for all of it's normalcy and lack of spandex.
 
  

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