BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


What is scientology?

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
jbsay
23:52 / 30.06.05
I agree-I've known some great mormons. But,
1) I don't know any scientologists--they might be Ok people too. All organized religions are a bit kooky. Doesn't mean the followers can't be good people

2) have any of you skimmed any of the (relatively) recent books on Mormonism? I mean, the advent of the religion could only be surpassed by a sci-fi writer. Joseph Smith Brigham Young et al were total nutcases at best and sociopaths at wosrt. Pedophile, murderer, etc. And the cosmology of Mormonism is on par with scientology.

3) Mormons are very litigous. Maybe not as bad as scientologists, but still pretty feisty. They tend to use social pressure more than legal pressure, but use both as far as I can tell

MTV Mormon in 'Real' Bind
Mormon cast member on MTV's 'Real World' charged with violating Brigham Young's strict honor code
[later expelled]

4) Not to get all multicultural, but...
President Brigham Young, March 8, 1863:

["]Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty[,] of the law under God [sic; under the law of God,] is death on the spot. This will always be so.["]

[Journal of Discourses 10:110; Great Salt Lake City]

President Brigham Young, August 19, 1866:

["]Why are so many [of the] inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers' rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which they are not now entitled to [sic; which we now are entitled to].["]



I don't have hardcopies of the recent Mormon books, but the amount of insanity documented in them was up there with Scientology. And if you follow that 10-point cult plan that is on the web i'm pretty sure Mormonism qualifies
 
 
jbsay
00:05 / 01.07.05
sorry for the threadrot re mormonism. just something thats been nagging me
 
 
grant
14:32 / 01.07.05
Creepy.
 
 
dionigi
05:25 / 02.07.05
i live in Clearwater, Florida, also known as the scientology mecca Flag Land Base. they essentially own our downtown area, having bought a big old hotel in the 70s using an assumed name (the historic- for Florida- Ft. Harrison Hotel, where the Lisa Mcpherson incident took place) and spreading from there, buying out the surrounding local businesses and replacing them with vitamin stores and offices with official-sounding names like the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (the scieno anti-psychiatry org). they're currently using the entire block across from the hotel to build their massive Flag "Super Power" Building, complete with what looks just like a watchtower. you can see it and the rest of downtown here, and a page dedicated just to all the surveillance cameras the church has installed here.

the only upside to any of this is that the "church" does very little active recruiting in the area. which isn't really all that comforting...

anyway, i came across an interesting theory about the benefits claimed of scientology and its "auditing" process. during the audit- a very repetitive style of psychotherapy dealing with your repressed memories and past lives (all 75 million years worth, eventually, i'd assume), all on the record- you're hooked up to a very primative sort of lie detector machine, which sends a small electric current through your body. as the theory goes, the shock is usually too small to feel, but it is enough to possible stimulate endorphin release in the body, leaving you feeling great afterwards. this is extended to say that since the net chemical effect of opiates is an endorphin rush ("endogenous morphine"), the auditing can be used as a clean and safe-looking methadone-style substitutuion for many drug addicts, giving some credibility to scientology's claim to cure drug addiction, among other things. more on that here.

honestly, i have no idea how plausable any of that is, but it does sound good.
 
 
charrellz
13:33 / 02.07.05
For people who despise Freud, auditing sounds awfully Freudian.
 
 
This Sunday
16:07 / 02.07.05
Being part of the anti-Freudian club (along with Nabokov, Borges, and Burroughs), I can't fault Mr. Cruise for his pronouncement of modern psychotherapy/psychology as a charade... up to a point. I don't believe the set of models and one-to-one representations Freud established, because I think he just tried to make his own personal translations/metaphors universal, but... I don't think any good psychiatrist/psychologist/psychotheraputic shamanic headshrinker believes that, either. This would be ignoring the armchair or pop psychologist, as well as the placatory licensed drug pusher, but there are some good doctors out there who're actually thinking things through, certainly.
Hard and fast absolutes is another reason I really don't like the First Church of Ron-El (rocketed to Earth by vastly superior alien supermen to fight a neverending battle for truth, justice, and the ability to publish more books after death than during life). The primary thing I don't hold with, is the insistence that everything good in someone's life be attributed to *someone else*. Seriously, I've known some otherwise rational and intelligent people, with splendid lives, who really believe that without Hubbard and his dictates, they could never have been intelligent, useful, successful human beings.
At least Jesus had the good taste to die quick and not publish after death. Mohamed? Less 'follow me' and more, 'here's some useful, practical ideas and the loopholes to get out of them; PS God is big, bigger than me, bigger than you, bigger than big, and yes he could make a donut so big he couldn't eat it but only for as long as he didn't want to eat it, after which, God could eat the donut.' It's people insisting you do the bow and scrape to them, as you owe them all, that make me more than suspicious.
Without absolutely abstracting God to everything (in other words: God Is), I don't see how, even aside from the stupid worship-the-agent-on-Earth idea, people can get all worked up about some huge, ridiculous absolute who is still small enough as to require subservient bow-and-scrape fear-for-our-lives-and-souls serfdom.
What was it Milton wrote? 'Even those who stand and wait, still serve'?
Scientologists aren't saying 'suture thyself,' which I think the basic ideas would apply best to, but instead, 'let us suture you, but with you doing all the actual work and then cutting us in on a percentage of your earnings, later.'
And, yes, this should probably be twice as long to make the points more reasonably, but this isn't the place for extended lectures on religion, solipsism, and the deified extant. Or the 'why I agree with Tom Cruise' essay ^_<
 
 
charrellz
17:03 / 02.07.05
I don't believe the set of models and one-to-one representations Freud established, because I think he just tried to make his own personal translations/metaphors universal, but... I don't think any good psychiatrist/psychologist/psychotheraputic shamanic headshrinker believes that, either.

I can't stress enough how little modern psychology gives a shit about Freud. My textbook two semesters ago spent less than a page on him and than moved on. My professors mock him. Freud is no reason to bash the work that alot of people are doing in a huge field today. The medication I take to get me by day-to-day is in no way Freudian, and it's a little more sophisticated than a lobotomy. Yes, psychology used to be fucked up, but so was dentistry. You trust the dentist, don't you?
 
 
This Sunday
18:01 / 02.07.05
Considering I've got a few thousand dollars worth of dental costs coming up, in part to fucked up dentistry work in the past... no. No, I don't particularly trust any profession or individual practitioner just because they're part of a profession. Single individuals I'll put my trust in, but a job or a school? Nah.
 
 
Ria
20:24 / 02.07.05
which is totally right as far as i can see, interestingly they have gotten very much involved with(or sectretly infiltrated) the anti-ECT / anti-psychiatry movement which contains people of remarkable resilience and strength but also some vulnerable people who have been sorely aboused by the psychiatric system and are probably even easier recruits than shallow celebs

as a participant in the antipsychiatry movement I know something about this...

the CoS have a couple of antipsychiatry front organizations, the CCHR and Psychbusters (which has little existence beyond websites as far as I can tell) and while arguably not a front organization, a Scientologist formed a group called Safe Harbor.

members of the Church deny that the CCHR and Psychbusters have any but an independent existence from Scientology when anyone can tell that they can, just by the fact that Scientologists run both of their groups. individual members have involved themselves in the autonomous antipsychiatric groups like Mindfreedom. they do not always make it clear their affiliations and sometimes they do. if asked, they admit it.

agreeing with what you said about psychiatric survivors involving themselves with Scientology who do not know any better. if you do not know enough the Church you might like to take them up as allies.

me, I advocate divesting ourselves from them as loudly and often as possible.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
00:27 / 04.07.05
Daytripper: I don't believe the set of models and one-to-one representations Freud established, because I think he just tried to make his own personal translations/metaphors universal, but...I don't think any good psychiatrist/psychologist/psychotheraputic shamanic headshrinker believes that, either.This would be ignoring the armchair or pop psychologist, as well as the placatory licensed drug pusher...

...as well as the last 70-100 years of behaviorism, humanism, existential psych, gestalt therapy, cognitive therapy, cognitive-behavioral work, social psych, evolutionary psych, neuroscience, and so on. The study of the human mind is not incredibly rooted in Freud anymore, and if that's your argument for 'psychology as a charade,' then I don't see it exactly holding up. Unless you're arguing that it's a charade that works. What's funny to me is that while psychology didn't stop at Freud, our vocabularies are often littered with his ideas. When you say that someone is 'rationalizing,' or 'getting defensive,' or 'repressed,' or so on, you're using some ideas that he invented and/or refined. Not all of his stuff is crap - we all get defensive, time to time. But psychology has moved on. Just ask Wikipedia, or a psych major - 'Oedipal' is not exactly a part of my daily terminology.

American psychiatry too has moved on, though not in the best direction. It's pretty well rooted in reductionism and materialism. Of course, that's a huge problem for Scientologists, too, because they feel that studying human behavior - particularly studying it as a kind of animal behavior, with strong physical components (the nervous system, glands, hormones) - this practice always must deny the nobility of human beings. Of course, they also feel that studying human behavior is unnecessary because someone has already done all the work for us - El Ron. Now, reductionism certainly can deny what's beautiful and divine in humanity, but I don't think Scientology is exactly cornering the market in preserving the dignity of mankind. Also, the idea that any and all studies of human behavior are evil is a pretty obnoxious belief, derived from both the assumption that all research on human behavior treats people like cattle (again, turning partial truths to blanket statements), and also the concept that all the work's already done.

Seriously, I've known some otherwise rational and intelligent people, with splendid lives, who really believe that without Hubbard and his dictates, they could never have been intelligent, useful, successful human beings.

Spot on. That's pretty much the company line - El Rono sells his shtick as the one-and-only way to help people, period. El Ronito thusly creates a miracle monopoly - he is the only authorized source for anything good/magical/powerful in our lives, and whatever he says, goes. Nothing else really works, and if you think it does, then that just shows how deviant you've become. Apparently only their techniques are worth a damn. From my eclectic views, that's crazy talk.


P.S. Scientology vs. Podiatry! This is fucking hilarious! Take a look-see here.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
03:00 / 04.07.05
I predict that the COS is going to be coming down on Cruise, at least in private, pretty soon. He's been a little too open and drawing a bit too much negative attention.

"The podiatry industry wants to conduct an x-ray so they can suck the minerals out of her foot and sell them to psychiatrists, who then process them into anti-psychiatry drugs, which are forced upon children and are the leading cause of low SAT scores.”

This is a joke. Or a satire. This has to be a joke.

"It’s not fair that I know all these things after donating $58 million to the Church, but poorer Americans don’t know it yet.”

Yeah, no shit, Tom. Feeling a little suspicious of your church yet? Do you plan on letting us learn your healing powers and energy blasts too?
 
 
LykeX
05:32 / 04.07.05
This has to be a joke
I get that feeling every time I read the news.
However, in the about section it says:

Dateline Hollywood was founded in 360 BC as "Gladiators Weekly" to cover the booming entertainment industry in the coliseums of ancient Rome.

So, I'm leaning towards joke myself.
It's really well done, though, considering how they've mixed the satire with real information, referencing the Oprah interview that everyone's heard of.
 
 
LucasCorso
13:33 / 04.07.05
Ok, now take a look a this:

onto.provocation.net

Doesn't the whole stuff sounds very similar to the brainwashing techniques Scientology is alimed to use?
Tough, this movement claims itself to be something like a psichology school.
Note that Susan Blackmore had some argues with them too...
 
 
Charlie's Horse
17:33 / 04.07.05
Oy vey. I didn't think to point out that that site is satirical, as far as I know - Cruise didn't actually say that. It's just something I found a day or two ago that made me laugh out loud. I posted in a tired state last night, and didn't think to point out that the site was a joke. Sorry 'bout that.

Lucas - eh? I don't think a group like 'Ontopsychology' really counts as a legit school of psychology, if that's what you're saying - most 'schools' of psychology don't forcibly require students to "abandon all family ties (parents, relatives, spouses, children, friends) and to be involved with [Ontopsychology] alone, in order to achieve what is called their total emancipation." They just make us pay student fees every semester, go to class, that sorta thing. Much less sinister. Does sound a lot like Scientology, in some regards - claiming to have scientific backing for their beliefs, like some other modern philosophical/religious/magical movements.
 
 
LykeX
17:34 / 04.07.05
I don't care, they've got Scientology beat on coolness of leader.



Doesn't he look a bit like a gangster boss?
 
 
Quantum
17:44 / 05.07.05
So Barbelith is pro-scientology then?

Did you know L.Ron apparently rides the ocean waves on his own cruise ship, avoiding tax and the law in international waters? Rock 'n roll baby, Pirate Ron Rules!

Seriously though, even the name is nonsense (science-ology? that's like divination-omancy, or ruler-ocracy innit?). If you ever feel tempted to take it seriously either read some of his contemporaries sci-fi or anecdotes (Heinlein scathes him particularly well having lost that bet) or simply watch Battlefield Earth. Would you follow anyone who could pen that tripe?

I love the way that the secret wisdom the science-ologists pay for is free online, hahahahahahahaha! Cruise and Travolta can suck my internet access!
 
 
LykeX
19:03 / 05.07.05
You won't be laughing when your head explodes
 
 
LucasCorso
10:06 / 11.07.05
Never said that "Ontopsychologists" actually ARE psychologists, Charliehorse; I just said that is what THEY claim. And I don't believe them. As I wrote before, they sounds like wackos-brainwashed-Scientologistswannabe to me, and this in my eyes is far off from being something positive: look for example at the whole stuff about Marina Furlan, the girl who was killed for Meneghetti's (the movement leader) dumbness, at best.
And yes, he looks like a mafia boss.
And yes, he WAS a catholic priest.
Sterotypes on Italy, but sometimes there is some truth in stereotypes.
Of course, I'm italian.
 
 
+#'s, - names
15:08 / 11.07.05
The founding members of the Process Church learned how to mindzap from being Scientologist e-meter auditors.

The Smoking Gun has recently put up El-Ron's FBI files here.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
17:39 / 11.07.05
Sorry, Lucas, didn't mean to roll up on you like that - I just couldn't really tell from your first message. So, quite naturally, I assumed the worst. ;l

That guy looks more like a pirate than a Mafia boss to me. A coke-fueled, crazy-eyed pirate king. He's certainly got the hair for it.

Maybe his ideas will spread to Scientology (or vice versa) and they'll have some watermelon-headed brain children.
 
 
grant
13:47 / 17.07.05
I just scored (along with the "Mormonism for Dummies" book at work -- no lie) a set of Dianetics workbooks from a friend whose brother is *into it*. When she told him she loaned the books (and videos) out, he said, "No! You're supposed to sell them!"

Anyway, reading the marriage book, within the first two pages I get a serious subtextual vibe off it.

Dig:

(about Scientology intro):
This broad body of knowledge resulted in two applications of the subject: first, a technology for man to increase his spiritual awareness and attain the freedom sought be many great philosophic teachings; and, second, a great number of fundamental principoles men can use to improve their lives. In fact, in this secon application, Scientology offers nothing less than practical methods to better every aspect of our existence -- means to create new ways of life.


And, from the first page of the What Is Marriage" chapter:
The marriage relationship, basically, is a postulated relationship. A postulate is a conclusion, decision or resolution about something. When people stop postulating a marriage, it ceases to exist. That is what happens to most marriages. it isn't the other way around. It isn't that all men are evil, so therefore, contracts such as marriage dissolve usually in infidelity and go all to pieces. That is not true. The reverse is true.


OK, to some degree this is taking things out of context, and it's not the sort of text that was ever meant to be subjected to a close reading, but still... a little creepy, Maybe it's just that I'm still recovering from watching The Stepford Wives a few weeks ago... (the original one, not the bad one by mr. scientology's ex-wife.)
 
 
macrophage
18:09 / 21.07.05
I have seen a clone of L Ron Hubbard around where I live. I once had seriously deranged feelings that the Big Ron duped Jack Parsons ripped him off and his broad. Now I think I lost in within the abyss of infantile obssessions! Auditing and Clearing does work not that I've ever attempted to join the Navy Fetish Types. WSB makes me wonder - how the fuck do you gain a port of entry (ouch!) into the Org if you seem to exist within the stoic label of an Aberee??!! Talk about Back Door Policies!!! Saw "Battlefield Earth" - not good at all, but then I'm going off the whole irreality of Sci-Fi anyhow's!! Only joking. Cyberpunk beats sub-Aldiss and sub-Asimov anyday!! City of Quartz rather than City of Amerikkkan Camp and Kitschness, Cosmologies versus Plan 9 From Outer Space. I even thought about joining up!!!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
02:08 / 23.07.05
rides the ocean waves on his own Cruise ship (my capitals)

I will come back and say something intelligent about this(fantastic thread, btw, and grant, those quotes are beyond creepy) but for now I'm too busy laughing at the above...
 
 
Lord Morgue
12:18 / 23.07.05
The function of the "audit" machine is thus: it's a primitive polygraph, designed to measure emotional stress. The quiz applied contains a lot of provocative questions, designed to upset you until you are in a state of mild hysteria and your brain is in alpha rhythms- this is hypnosis by stimulation, a refined version of the basic brainwashing technique used by every evangelist, sales rep, and cult leader since American research into Nazi thought control was declassified in the '60's. When you reach the desired state, the questions take a suggestive turn, such as "Do you feel it is your parents' fault that you are this way?", seeking to drive a wedge between you and your family, the first step to making you totally dependent on the Scientologist organisation.
Scientology does indeed include rubbish from Hubbard's S.F. books, according to them, written under divine inspiration.
Their terminology includes "Fresh meat", a prospective convert, and "fair game", one who has left Scientology.
Members are encouraged to do anything to ruin the life, career, and reputation of "fair game". There are no moral or legal limits set.
Critics of Scientology on the net have been the target of massive organised spamming and trolling campaigns that have seen the end of more than one forum. Scientologists have wielded uprecedented power in forcing an anonymous remailing service to surrender its files to reveal the poster of their "secret" teachings.
For further research, I suggest "Dangerous Persuaders: An Expose of Gurus, Personal Development Courses and Cults, and How They Operate in Australia.", by Louise Samways, which also dissects Amway, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Orange People, and others.
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply