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Watched VS Unwatched

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
11:07 / 07.06.05
A metathread where we discuss the whole, big picture concerning CCTV, ID Cards, Anti-terror measures and all in a general sense.

I want to take the 'Lith's pulse on this matter. We've had threads about CCTV, ID Cards, etc etc before, but this thread asks the question: can all these things be lumped together into one phenomenon- which I will call the Watched Society, in opposition to the Unwatched Society.

Do you think this is a realistic divergence? Which side would you support? What do you intend to do in support of your choice? This thread may seem vague but I'm hoping we can get a big, wide discussion out of this.
 
 
Nobody's girl
14:26 / 07.06.05
Do you think this is a realistic divergence?

Yes, I do.

Which side would you support?

I'm in favour of the Unwatched Society, as I consider myself to be a libertarian. (Americans, I know you often misunderstand libertarian to mean "paranoid guy who lives in an isolated cabin with guns", which is why I have linked to the dictionary definition.) I'm always astonished at the niavete of the "Well, I've got nothing to hide crowd".

What do you intend to do in support of your choice?

I will not to register for an ID card and I will lobby my representatives not to support infringements of my civil liberties. I suppose my activism will depend on how serious the situation gets. For example, if I'm taken to court for not registering for an ID card then I suppose I'll get involved in organisations challenging these measures.

I'm interested that no-one has brought up these proposals yet as they also have worrying overtones for those of us concerned about keeping the government out of our private matters.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:36 / 07.06.05
I used to think I was opposed to ID Cards purely on the grounds of human liberty, but then I have any number of small ID cards that I carry around without any qualms, so I don't think I really am. I think I would support ID Cards if the Government could prove they would do society any good and if we could have faith that the Government could be trusted with to both set-up a scheme without wasting any of our money and then to run the scheme without any nefarious purposes. Which, in the end, is close to my original start point, but more precisely defined.

I will get an ID Card when it comes to the crunch, but I'm looking at ways of ensuring that when the Man comes for my biometric data it's corrupted so that they can't get the info (at the moment retina scans can be invalidated by a sleepless night for example).
 
 
Smoothly
14:46 / 07.06.05
Those proposals have been brought up elsewhere, nobody’s girl.

I'm always astonished at the niavete of the "Well, I've got nothing to hide crowd".

Count me as one of that crowd for a moment. If I’m not doing anything wrong, what have I got be worried about?
 
 
sleazenation
15:09 / 07.06.05
being accused of having done something wrong because of a software fuck up
 
 
alterity
15:18 / 07.06.05
Count me as one of that crowd for a moment. If I’m not doing anything wrong, what have I got be worried about?

Uh, why don't you ask any number of people who are being held at Gitmo without having ever been charged of a crime? Or you could ask Steve Kurtz and other members of Critical Arts Ensemble (story here. Kurtz woke up one morning and found that his wife had died in her sleep. First responders at the scene called the Joint Terrorism Task Force when they saw one of his art projects (which involved test tubes-SCARY!). They quarantined his home, seized his papers and computer, which have yet to be returned more than a year later. The biological substances he was working with are available for use in junior high science classes, essentially safe enough to eat--literally. And yet, to this day, he has (with support) spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees. He continues to portrayed as a terrorist, despite having not broken any law having to do with terrorism. He faces twenty years in jail for mail fraud, which, perhaps, he did commit. However, the case for mail fraud has only been made because they can't get him for anything else. Moreover, what he did is done by members of the scientific community every day, and they have never been prosecuted. Which can only lead me to believe that Kurtz is being prosecuted because his art critiques the current power structure in the United States, including the notion of Homeland Security.

A faster rejoinder is simply to ask, even if you have nothing to hide, do you want the police to be able to come into your home whenever they want and search your personal effects? Do you want an RFID chip in your passport? Do you want to have to tell airline officials the names and addresses of people you are planning to visit? DO they have a right to know these things? The US Constitution is designed to protect the privacy of the individual from the government, and yet in the contemporary United States (I won't and can't speak for the rest of the world) the government operates more in secret everyday, while "laws" like the USA PATRIOT Act in effect reverse the dynamic just described and make what should be private public and what should be public secret.

(Americans, I know you often misunderstand libertarian to mean "paranoid guy who lives in an isolated cabin with guns", which is why I have linked to the dictionary definition.)

As an American leftist, I am amazed actually, despite what I used to be told, just how close I am to libertarianism on many issues, and this one is exemplary of that closeness. (I do not favor free markets or the elimination of taxes, however.)

I am for the Unwatched Society, and agree with Lady. I have knee-jerk reaction against ID cards, but at the same time they are necessary for so many things, including getting one airplanes, where the security issue comes to a head. In an ideal world, no one would need to present ID because everyone would be nice to one another. That world will never exist, and so some security is necessary. I will trade a certain degree of freedom for security in very specific settings. We do this all of the time. If you want to go to university, you trade away the right to do nothing. You have to work. IF you don't, you cannot be at university. If you want to get on an airplane, you have to show ID. If you do not, you cannot get on. That seems reasonable to me. No one is forcing my to fly. However, there is a line that I do not think we should cross, and I think that forking over information on people who will not be on the flight is going to far. (This actually happened to boingboing writer Cory Doctorow. Sorry, I can't find a link.)

All of this is moot anyway, at least in the United States, as the guv'mit has convinced far too many citizens to rat on each other. Remember Burroughs: "A functioning police state needs no police."
 
 
Smoothly
15:20 / 07.06.05
Well, okay, but that seem to be an argument against using computer technology in criminal investigations and I’d imagine you don’t see it as simply as that.

But let’s make it simple, just to look at the principle. Say there was a plan for universal CCTV coverage of the UK. So, cameras everywhere, in doors, outdoors, in your home in your bathroom, everywhere. Everything everyone does is recorded. It’s obvious what we could stand to gain from such a move (pretty much no crime), but what would the law-abiding have to fear?
 
 
Axolotl
15:20 / 07.06.05
I've got nothing to hide (or at least nothing I'll confess to on the internet...) but I still don't want to register with the police everytime I move house for example. Even if you discount the (huge) practical problems associated with the ID card scheme there are a number of principals involved that I am unwilling to give up.
 
 
Smoothly
15:31 / 07.06.05
Sorry, alterity, your post snuck in before mine.
The Steve Kurtz case you mention doesn’t seem to be an argument against being ‘watched’ so much as a case about the state misusing the judiciary and its instruments. I mean, that case could equally be an argument against having a police force.
And in my universal CCTV hypothesis, the footage could be used to prove innocence as effectively as guilt. It sound to me like we might need better facilities with which to *refute* trumped up charges.
I’m not sure that I do have any natural ‘right’ to privacy, and from a pragmatic point of view I’m not sure what information the state is entitled to; I’m not sure where you’re drawing the line exactly, or why you’re drawing it there.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:33 / 07.06.05
It’s obvious what we could stand to gain from such a move (pretty much no crime), but what would the law-abiding have to fear?

The interpretation of an action can be different from the intention and if there's a reason for someone with power to be biased against you that's where the problems start. Doctored evidence hand in hand with terror laws presents a problem in my mind- you may want to remember that Britain has a problem with institutionalised racism in its Police Force.
 
 
Smoothly
15:37 / 07.06.05
Well yes, but that's not necessarily a good reason for disbanding the Police.
 
 
Smoothly
15:42 / 07.06.05
Also, I dare say racist police would be less inclined to verbally abuse Arabs, or beat black people half-to-death, if they knew – like everyone knew – that everything was being recorded.
 
 
Tom Morris
16:59 / 07.06.05
Count me as one of that crowd for a moment. If I’m not doing anything wrong, what have I got be worried about?

Want to back up that sentiment? Post all your bank statements and your home address online. We want phone numbers, credit card numbers, we want a list of everything you've picked up from the library, we want to know what you say to your loved ones, we want to know what you drink, where you drink, whether you're gay or straight, what god you pray to (if any), and we want it all in the public domain. Now.

If you don't go along with our demands, you're a terrorist. Since you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear.

I'm serious. I'll host all the stuff for you on my site and I'll help you distribute it publicly. If you've got nothing to hide, you'll have no problem with me looking at a complete list of every book you've had out from the library.

The Jews had nothing to hide in Germany back in the thirties. I don't have anything to hide now. But I still don't want either you or the police or the government reading my bank statements. They're for me, they're mine. They are my private property and refer to things which are mine. Stay the hell off them unless you've got permission from me, which you do NOT. That's what privacy means. I won't accept anything below that.

If you do not want me to read your bank statement or have a detailed history of your sex life, then you DO have something to hide. But it does not follow from this that you have something to fear. If I did reveal my bank statements to the public, they'd be pretty bored. It's just your average student's bank dealings: Student Loan Company and train tickets and nights out and the odd bit here and there on Amazon. I don't have anything to hide - there are no criminal dealings, no immoral behaviour, no smoking guns. There aren't any prostitutes on my bank statement, no selling weapons to African dictators, no extraordinary bribes for political representatives. About the closest you can get to immoral behaviour was a few overdue library books.

I have nothing to hide. But that doesn't justify intrusions in to my privacy. It doesn't justify intrusions in to anyone's privacy.
 
 
alterity
17:02 / 07.06.05
I’m not sure that I do have any natural ‘right’ to privacy, and from a pragmatic point of view I’m not sure what information the state is entitled to; I’m not sure where you’re drawing the line exactly, or why you’re drawing it there.

I'm not claiming any natural rights in terms of the state. Rather, I am not claiming that there are any rights the state must naturally respect. The only natural right we have is to do that which it is within our power to do. A table has the ability to keep things off of the floor, and humans have the ability to reason (for the most part). Therefore, the table has a right to hold things off the floor and humans have the right to reason. The table does not have the right to fly. Humans have the right not to reason, because (unfortunately) they have the power to do so. But the state cannot invent rights for us to possess naturally. Some people may have the natural right to freedom, as it may be in their power to provide freedom for themselves. Some may not have that power. That's why there is society, which creates a situation in which the power is distributed to all people to be free. This distribution is not, of course, natural. But it is established and should be considered disposable because it is artificial.

Being a part of society is a trade off between exerting natural rights (if I can, it is my natural right to beat someone to a pulp) and the rights of the rest of the people in society. The state takes away from my right to beat people to a pulp so that the society functions. Thus the saying "it's a free country" is generally bs. There cannot be a totally free country, because total freedom goes against the very idea of a functioning nation.

While I certainly hear the argument that the Kurtz case is not the most relevant here (it was the first example that popped into my head), I do not believe it is reasonable for the government to take away the right to privacy when it suits it. This is not a natural right, but one granted in the United States by the Constitution and judicial precedent. The Constitution is the document that is supposed to guarantee that powers are not abused, but it is precisely the document that is under attack.

Ben Franklin said that those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither. Of course, the choice has to some extent already been made for us for the reasons described above. However, there are freedoms that should not be traded for security, namely those described in the founding document of the nation. When the shit hits the fan, as in, say, the case of 9/11, freedoms must be protected all the more. That is what the Constitution is for. Freedoms are not meant to be given and protected when convenient, but are supposed to be there always, especially when things get tough.

As for proving people innocent by watching them constantly? Well that's the province of fascism. That is exactly the argument that leads to a Big Brother State. No one should have to prove their innocence. Ever. Ever. Ever. Again, speaking in the case of the US, which I do realize is not the whole world (I simply do not know enough about the juridical polices of the rest of the planet), the Constitution explicitly states that people are innocent until proved guilty. Innocence, in other words, is assumed from the start. Therefore, I may not be arrested without due cause and due process, which includes habeas corpus. I can't be arrested and then asked, "Are you innocent? If you are, you have nothing to worry about, you just have to prove it." I realize that your argument for CCTV is not meant to create such a state, but that is exactly where such an argument leads.

In the end, I am unwilling to be watched on the off chance that I might be able to prove that I did not do something. I am willing to not say fire in a crowded movie theater. I am willing to not take explosives on airplanes. These actions do not take away my freedom, or at least not my privacy. It's tough to say where the line should be drawn, but constant surveillance is not a good idea. (Read Foucault on this subject, although he will tell you that surveillance is now unnecessary, since our very subjectivity has already been conditioned to stay in line. See the Burroughs quote above.)
 
 
lord henry strikes back
19:00 / 07.06.05
I think that CCTV is fully justifiable provided that there are strickly defined rules about its use. This is how I would break it down:

The government, through the police, can use it to watch public spaces such as roads, parks, etc. These cameras cannot be allowed to view inside private spaces (homes or businesses). The footage cannot be be released to anyone else (individuals, businesses, other government organs) without reason as decided by the courts.

Businesses can use it to view the used area (mostly inside shops, pubs etc. Not the street outside) of their own property. Again these tapes cannot be released to anyone, including the police, without a court order.

Private individuals have the right to film their own property, and these tapes cannot be passed on without the say-so of the courts.

In the case of other state buildings (hospitals, job centres, etc.) the tapes belong to that government department. Rented/provided housing should be treated as private residences. Release of tapes is as above.

All areas that are being filmed, by anyone, must be clearly signposted stating both that it is being recorded and by whom.

With these kind of strict guidlines in place we all know where we stand and we can all carve out our own private spaces. I'm not sure whether one would call this a watched society or not. I've been thinking about this for a while and I post it in part to see it ripped apart so that I can develop the idea further.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
19:03 / 07.06.05
Sorry, I know that this thread is about more than CCTV. I do have comments to make on the other areas but I felt that the post was getting long enough and I don't have time right now.
 
 
astrojax69
22:14 / 07.06.05
australians resoundingly rejected an 'australia card' - essentially an id card - at a referendum, and consisently and overwhelmingly do so in polls. but the government/s pursue this option.

the tasmanian government is about to put a chip on medicare (health) cards that can contain a full medical history, as a test pilot to its introduction across the country.

as for referenda being ignored, there were three separate referenda in the australian capital territory on self government (we were formerly administered by the federal govt) but we had it imposed nonetheless. we even had a significant vote for various 'no self government' parties at the first self-govt's election, but the major parties ran effective scare campaigns and, of course, the nsg parties were too fractured.


on the watched/unwatched debate, i prevaricate. there are excellent policing results from cctv and the argument that recording all police actions makes it less likely 'bad' police actions will proliferate has some weight.

but feeling like truman doesn't enthral me. there are people in our society with genuine psychoses related to paranoia and these measures would be massive transgressions of their civil liberties, surely? how are the minorities catered to in this world. on the other hand, will it not probably lend more assistance to a greater number of other citizens? do we invoke the mill/bentham creed of 'most good for the most people' and damn those who fall outside the lines?

even though you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
00:32 / 08.06.05
(DISCLAIMER: I know it's easy to build a "reality tunnel", spinning together different factual elements to create one's own threadbare representation of the state of the world, but I can't help sewing all this together: ID. Cards, CCTV, ASBO's, DNA databases, the war on terror, etc. I admit, therefore, that I am not the font of all wisdom, and that my view isn't necessarily correct simply because it's mine. However,...)

A writer being interviewed on a recent ITN news article about Identity Cards (I didn't get catch her name, sorry) was asked what she had to hide, and her answer was (IMHO) pure genius: "I have nothing to hide from those I trust."

As others have pointed out, the erosion of our civil liberties is happening and the two arguments for its justification are built on questionable ground: "the War on Terror", and "the War on Crime/Yob Culture" (by the way, remember "the War on Drugs?") Yes, that's right, apparently we ARE living in a war-zone. Curfews, the proliferation of all forms of moving camera, double-speak, ... I could go on; but it's all so '1984' it's no longer funny...

From the news today: Workers being tagged.

As I've typed before in the "In The Hood" thread:

"They are locking down." All of this (hoodies, CCTV, ID cards,etc) is about Civil Liberties. It's like any tool: "In the wrong hands." Or maybe I'm just being paranoid?
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
08:53 / 08.06.05
[camera-specific]
Isn't there a significant argument against current cctv cameras based on efficacy? I definitely remember reading about problems with low-quality images preventing footage being any use. Obviously, if better cameras are employed then this problem should disappear, but the fact remains that they're not infallible - certainly, the one time I've been the victim of a crime in a public place, the even occurred just outside the arc of the cameras, and so provided no evidence.
[/camera specific]

On the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" brigade, I've mixed feelings; on one hand I become deeply paranoid when faced with batteries of cameras on every side, and am posessed with the childish but inoxerable urge to give them the finger. Furthermore, the idea of a vast amount of personal data compressed onto one card, which I am required to posess, is worrying purely because of the Orwellian and Kafka-esque scenarios it could generate. On the other, it does seem that lord henry's model of the situation seems to be workable and almost desirable, if the government are "those I trust". This appears to be the problem. There are several points of basic philosophy upon which I disagree with the current government (even disregarding their actions), mostly based upon the fact that I'm not a communitarian. So perhaps it's not so much the fact that I don't trust them (which I don't) but more that I don't actually agree with their definition of a "good citizen". Obviously, this raises questions about the nature of democracy and the prerogatives of the State. However, it does seem that in an extreme situation such as the surveillance/cameras/war on terror issue, it becomes a lot easier for the government to impose its smaller moral strictures upon the general populace, but not to actually catch terrorists. Forgive me for being a trifle facetious, but one of the defining characteristics of suicide bombers is that they tend to blow themselves up, often taking large chunks of their surroundings with them. The problem is that unless surveillance is introduced into private homes (which is not what is being discussed, I hope), it remains that once someone has gone and exploded in a public area, no amount of cameras or ID cards will help. Evidently, the purpose is intended therefore to be prevention. But I still don't quite understand how increased surveillance of the population will help prevent terrorists doing their nefarious deeds - wasn't it the case that the Spanish train-bombers all had ID Cards? I'm not sure that this raft of legislation is in fact directed at the sort of naughty, bearded, suicidal (muslim) EXTREMISTS!!1! as characterised in the popular press, but rather at more easy-to-dispose of threats. [cynical, conspiracy-theory bit] In short, ID cards et al don't seem to make it easier to catch violent, explody terrorists, but they do seem to make it a good deal more straightforward to deal with bona fide enemies of the state. To what extent would an actual terrorist attack on, say, Buckingham Palace actually affect the current government? Most targets would be a tragedy from a civilian perspective, but the actual deaths (disregarding something along the lines of a "dirty bomb" or biological attack) would be pretty minor on a cynical national scale, and would act as proof that there was a "terrorist menace" all along. Apologies for the above, but I was studying Anglo-Irish relations all yesterday, and therefore am still on a "All Governments Are Self-Interested Bastards" high.
[/cynical, conspiracy-theory bit]
 
 
Jack Vincennes
09:07 / 08.06.05
When you use the phrase 'watched society', do you specifically refer to a society that uses the technology at its disposal (CCTV, panopticon, etc) to watch its members, or would any form of close observation fit your description of 'watched'? To use a (probably slightly tired) example -would the American Puritan settlements of the late seventeenth century be a 'watched' or and 'unwatched' society? Certainly, it would seem that being small communities, every member of the town would be able to keep track of the other members of the town, but this would simply be a function of the size of the town and the type of community, not any official surveillance.

What I want to know in writing this is not so much the astonishing parallels between being accused of having done something wrong because of a software fuck up and being accused of having done something wrong because some Puritans are high on mushrooms, but -do you think there's been a time in society when people have truly been 'unwatched'? Is it possible that CCTV, ID cards and so forth are just replacing observation by peers? Whilst the Salem example is a very extreme example of peer observation, I'm sure there are other examples of societies regulating the behaviour of their members in a way which, whilst no longer practical, is no less intrusive for the members of that society.

I am aware, by the way, that our peers no longer have the power to duck as as witches, but that the state (if it observes, or thinks it observes us doing something it doesn't like) has the power to make our lives extremely uncomfortable -but I thought it might be useful to talk a bit more about what we mean by 'unwatched', and to what extent that state of affairs has ever been achieved...
 
 
Smoothly
09:26 / 08.06.05
Want to back up that sentiment? Post all your bank statements and your home address online. We want phone numbers, credit card numbers, we want a list of everything you've picked up from the library, we want to know what you say to your loved ones, we want to know what you drink, where you drink, whether you're gay or straight, what god you pray to (if any), and we want it all in the public domain. Now. - Tom Morris

Well, funny you should say that because my bank details, home address, phone numbers and credit card details already are online (I use internet banking), and many of the things I have said to loved ones, what I like to drink, where I drink, whether I’m gay or straight and what (if any) god I pray to are all online here somewhere.
I know that’s not exactly what you mean – you mean why won’t I share that information with anyone who wants it, but that isn’t what I’m proposing with universal CCTV. Sorry if I wasn’t clear – I didn’t mean that anyone can watch whatever’s happening in your bathroom whenever you like, merely that it would be recorded and those recordings could be retrieved by someone with the appropriate authority. Just like scads of information is at the moment, be it your whereabouts, financial details, library records etc etc.
[And as a side point – if you shared all that info with me, I reckon I’d share mine with you. I started another thread about this a while ago, which I’d be up for getting into again, if you are]

I still don't want either you or the police or the government reading my bank statements. They're for me, they're mine. They are my private property and refer to things which are mine. Stay the hell off them unless you've got permission from me, which you do NOT. That's what privacy means. I won't accept anything below that.

Frankly, I think you’ll find you *will* accept the privacy of your bank statements being compromised the moment you’re accused of fraud, file for bankruptcy or file a tax return. You’re right, *I* can’t get hold of this information on you (easily), but again, that’s not what I’m proposing.


I do not believe it is reasonable for the government to take away the right to privacy when it suits it. This is not a natural right, but one granted in the United States by the Constitution and judicial precedent. The Constitution is the document that is supposed to guarantee that powers are not abused, but it is precisely the document that is under attack.

Forgive my ignorance but is privacy specifically protected by the US Constitution? There might be judicial precedent for respecting privacy in some circumstances, but while my CCTV proposal is just a thought experiment, in the UK at least you can already be already under surveillance pretty much anywhere other than your own home. I’m not aware of any huge class actions to get the cameras taken down. We seem to cope with this, by and large. As far as I can tell, the majority like them, they make them feel safer. If you tolerate cameras on the street, why wouldn’t you tolerate them in your home?


As for proving people innocent by watching them constantly? Well that's the province of fascism. That is exactly the argument that leads to a Big Brother State. No one should have to prove their innocence. Ever. Ever. Ever

I agree, I don’t think you should have to either. That’s not really my point. I’m just saying that it could limit or deter transgressions of our rights by, say, the Police as much as it did your average mugger or common or garden rapist. Not so much about proving one’s innocence as demanding to see the video evidence of one’s guilt.


Lord Henry – your set-up is pretty much what I’m proposing, but adding to that cameras in people’s homes. My question is, why do we need/want to ‘carve out our own private spaces’? So yeah, Withiel, that is what *I’m* suggesting. And although it wouldn’t stop suicide bombers (although it would make it harder to source and construct the bombs), it would be almost impossible to get away with committing most crimes. You get mugged, and the police can find the footage and then follow your assailant home.

I understand the points about these measures falling into the wrong hands (eg. An unaccountable, undemocratic government), but that’s true of every instrument of the state, be it the police, the army, the secret services, what have you. The possibility of this happening hasn’t so far stopped us establishing those.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
10:07 / 08.06.05
My question is, why do we need/want to ‘carve out our own private spaces’?

This is by no means my whole answer, I'm still working that through. Something to think about though. Islamic law is not my speciality, so correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there interpretations that state that the husband, father, and brothers of a muslim woman are the only men allowed to see her face uncovered (let alone her whole body)? With cameras in every home when would she be able to remove her headscarf? This is not just about people being uncumfortable with being seen naked, this is about religious freedom.
 
 
Smoothly
10:36 / 08.06.05
Interesting point, but where there’s a conflict, religious freedoms are generally subordinate to the law, aren’t they? Can Muslim women keep their faces covered for their passport photo?
 
 
w1rebaby
10:46 / 08.06.05
I understand the points about these measures falling into the wrong hands (eg. An unaccountable, undemocratic government), but that’s true of every instrument of the state, be it the police, the army, the secret services, what have you. The possibility of this happening hasn’t so far stopped us establishing those.

No. But we have limits. That's the point. It's always a question of balancing how much you want to allow someone to have control over you. You say, for instance, "okay, yeah, a police force, fine, but only with powers X, Y and Z". You balance the potential upsides with the potential downsides, and the potential downsides of surveillance are vast; information is a force multiplier, it allows even a relatively small number of people to suppress enemies of the state with greater efficiency than soldiers on every street corner. This I believe is something that drives the urge for private space, the conscious or subconscious perception that allowing people access to your private information gives them power over you which could be abused.

Arguments about errors and abuse of regulations for the purposes of harassment aside (not to dismiss them of course, they're important) I find it interesting that the question is often "if you're not a criminal, what have you got to hide?" Firstly, surveillance data is not just used in criminal investigations; the security services have a long and continuing record of using their powers against political enemies of the current system. Secondly, what if you are a criminal? It's an arbitrary term. "Terrorist" has been legally redefine recently to cover pretty much anyone engaging in political activity; a "criminal" can at the moment be anyone who breaches an ASBO, and an ASBO is not based on criminal charges, meaning you can face criminal charges for non-criminal behaviour, which is an interesting situation that the country seems to have sleepwalked into.

A lot of your attitude to this will rest on how much you consider the system that will have this information positive as regards your interests at the moment, and what you think the chances of it changing are in the future and still having the same powers. My answers there are (a) in some cases yes, in some cases no and (b) high, particularly when you consider the permanence of an integrated database.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:51 / 08.06.05
Oh, and to add to that last paragraph, a lot of your attitude will also rest on how much you think existing powers provide enough information for a tolerable level of security, and how much new proposed ones will add to that vs how much they can be misused, and in the case of current proposals such as ID cards and road tax GPS I would say "they won't do much good but they're terrific for purposes I don't want them used for". The fact that the government seems quite happy to promote them on an utterly inflated basis ("ID cards will stop terrorism!") and based on popular prejudices ("ID cards will stop illegal asylum seekers!") doesn't give me a lot of faith that that's what they're really for.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
11:34 / 08.06.05
Interesting point, but where there’s a conflict, religious freedoms are generally subordinate to the law, aren’t they? Can Muslim women keep their faces covered for their passport photo?

No they cannot, but they can choose not to hold a passport, or any other form of photo ID. Yes this would restrict other liberties, in this case being able to travel abroad, but if their religious beliefs are that important to them they have a choice. Putting cameras in every home, or indroducing compulsory ID cards, removes this choice. Actually, I really hope this gets raised in the courts if ID cards are introduced.

Also, you have to question who will be watching at the other end of the cameras. 'Who will watch the watchers' as it were. These people are going to have access to a lot of potentially sensitive information. How will they be policed to make sure that they do not make use of this for either their own ends or those of the state?
 
 
Smoothly
12:33 / 08.06.05
This I believe is something that drives the urge for private space, the conscious or subconscious perception that allowing people access to your private information gives them power over you which could be abused.

Yeah, I think there could be something in that. Although, I don’t get the impression that many people are hugely anxious about surveillance in public spaces, or the possibility of their privacy at home being invaded through avenues currently available (through phone taps or search warrants, for instance), although may be this is because the state is largely trusted to use its powers responsibly. And I do wonder whether the potential upsides of there being *no* cover for people up to no good wouldn’t outweigh the downsides of the feeling that it would be easier than ever to invade an innocent person’s privacy – at least not in the mind of the average citizen.

The fact that the government seems quite happy to promote them on an utterly inflated basis ("ID cards will stop terrorism!") and based on popular prejudices ("ID cards will stop illegal asylum seekers!") doesn't give me a lot of faith that that's what they're really for.

I take your point, of course, and I tend to agree. But since this is a hypothetical proposal from someone not in government (ie me), I don’t know if this applies to this thought experiment. What I’m wondering is what is important about privacy in theory. I think lots of people would feel uncomfortable having cameras in their homes even if they trusted their government absolutely. But maybe I’m wrong, maybe everyone would be cool about it.

So LHW’s point about who watches the watchers is relevant here. Again, this is already a problem as things are, and there are safeguards that seem to keep most people happy enough to fill in tax forms, bank on the internet, hand their credit card to a waiter and so on. If systems were put in place to prevent abuse (for one thing, I don’t imagine teams of people watching all these CCTV feeds, just that the recordings could be retrieved in particular circumstances), would that make you happy to have them installed?

As for religious freedoms, LHW, my point was more that states only ever respect them where they do not conflict with that state’s laws. There are all kinds of things which might be allowed or demanded by one’s god, but are not allowed or demanded by the law. If a Muslim woman were to be accused of a serious crime, I’m not sure that she is allowed to refuse to take part an identity parade on the grounds that her religion forbids it. That, if you ask me, is probably as it should be.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:44 / 08.06.05
Do you think this is a realistic divergence?

Ah. Well, no, I think I don't. That is to say, that I can certainly see that societies might tend more or less towards surveillance, but I don't think a society without any observation of one by t'other has existed. You might actually say that modern society is less "unwatched", because many of the people living in it don't believe that God is watching them all the time.

But, points out our sophisticated reader, God wasn't watching them, was he? Perhaps not. But then, haven't you heard that many speed cameras are not loaded with film? For that mattter, in Smoothly's world of total visibility, if 60 million people are being watched 24 hours a day, who is monitoring all that information?

Posit: The panopticon works even if (or at least equally well whether or not) there is nobody actually inside it. (Nb - Alterity has mentioned this in the gap between me starting this post and actually sending it, but I hope I can flesh it out a bit)

I realise I'm not breaking any new ground. In fact, so hackneyed is this argument that I'm even quoting myself. Hold on...

***

Okay - the panopticon is a form of prison proposed by Bentham. Essentially, it's a ring of cells, with a warder in the middle in a tower. The setup is designed so that the warder can look at any cell at any time, while the prisoners only know the warder is observing them if he addresses them. On a pragmatic level, this makes it easy to notice when something rum is happening. On a more theoretical level, it means that the prisoners behave, because they never knew whether and when they were being observed.

Foucault (in Discpline and Punish, which I maintain should be the title of a monthly magazine) takes the idea of the panopticon as a progression of the idea of the state taking over rtesponsibility for punishment (that is, in the olden days you were punished by the families of the person you had injured, then by the King, then by a state apparatus working with the approval of the King (the Crown Prosecution Service, Mer Majesty's Prisons), and so on - in each case removing the idea of punishment from the idea of the specific offence and its impact on the injured party. So, the panopticon for Foucault is a mtaphor for the imminence and immanence of observation - the point being that you never know when the state is observing you, but you always have to behave as if it is, because it might be.

From Discipline and Punish:

Hence the major effect of the Panopticon: to induce in the inmate a state of conscious and permanent visibility that assures the automatic functioning of power. So to arrange things that the surveillance is permanent in its effects, even if it is discontinuous in its action; that the perfection of power should tend to render its actual exercise unnecessary; that this architectural apparatus should be a machine for creating and sustaining a power relation independent of the person who exercises it; in short, that the inmates should be caught up in a power situation of which they are themselves the bearers. To achieve this, it is at once too much and too little that the prisoner should be constantly observed by an inspector: too little, for what matters is that he knows himself to be observed; too much, because he has no need in fact of being so. In view of this, Bentham laid down the principle that power should be visible and unverifiable. Visible: the inmate will constantly have before his eyes the tall outline of the central tower from which he is spied upon. Unverifiable: the inmate must never know whether he is being looked at at any one moment; but he must be sure that he may always be so. In order to make the presence or absence of the inspector unverifiable, so that the prisoners, in their cells, cannot even see a shadow, Bentham envisaged not only venetian blinds on the windows of the central observation hall, but, on the inside, partitions that intersected the hall at right angles and, in order to pass from one quarter to the other, not doors but zig-zag openings; for the slightest noise, a gleam of light, a brightness in a half-opened door would betray the presence of the guardian. The Panopticon is a machine for dissociating the see/being seen dyad: in the peripheric ring, one is totally seen, without ever seeing; in the central tower, one sees everything without ever being seen.

***

Now, theoretically, we could all be being watched all the time. there is a security camera in this room, there may be other hidden cameras. My Internet usage may be being monitored, and so on. As has been mentioned, there is a balance of powers, probability and, realistically, hassle.

Take cash. At the moment, if I have a purchase I want to make that I do not want to be immediately traceable to me, I have the option of paying for it in cash. Of course, this is by no means a secure system. A tenacious individual could follow me to a cashpoint, follow me into a shop and then quiz the shopkeeper as to what I have bought, for example. However, it takes a degree of effort not provided by current levels of purely electronic surveillance - the cameras that record you taking money out of the cashpoint will not be owned by the same company as the security cameras in the shop, and there will probably be no enshrined process for sharing that information. Again, one is protected from a single entity _automatically_ having total knowledge of what you do, and thus the effort of piecing it together. Total surveillance effectively destroys this model for cash - you can be followed from the cashpoint to the shop to the unwrapping at home by a single agency. So, you can no longer buy anything illegal. How about anything embarrassing? For that matter, how about things that are not illegal, but are prejudicial? Many of us probably know people who, for example, have more than one partner. That is not illegal, but is potentially prejudicial to the way social services will treat you. Of course, the employees of Social Services will be filmed, and so will be accountable to... and so on, up the chain. Of course, the more people are involved in the investigation, the more resources will need to be devoted to scanning and viewing video, and the further up the chain one goes the more likely it is that somebody will have the means and the knowledge to behave in such a way that they are not susceptible to constant surveillance or accountable for actions taken while iunder surveillance. That is the reason why the panopticon functions even when empty - the people being watched can't look in and see if the watcher is there.

So, a model of total surveillance would rely not only on visibility but also transparency, and ultimately in the completely ethical performance of those operating the means of surveillance. Without these two elements, you are looking at the removal of privacy without anything very much in exchange - and also the abandoning of privacy to people whom, you do not know and have no reason to suppose have any desire to use the information they are gathering to your benefit. Which is much the situation we have today, as far as I can tell...

At the risk of sounding Leaptopian, and taking into account Lord Henry's points about the right to practice religion within the laws of the land, is there a question here about that ol' ship... called... dignity?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
13:26 / 08.06.05
I agree, I don’t think you should have to either. That’s not really my point. I’m just saying that it could limit or deter transgressions of our rights by, say, the Police as much as it did your average mugger or common or garden rapist. Not so much about proving one’s innocence as demanding to see the video evidence of one’s guilt.

I see what you mean, and theoretically you may be right. But I'd like to raise two points here:

1) Is CCTV really a valid deterrent, and does this line of thought fully address the real issue of why such crime occurs? It's like a band-aid on a huge gaping wound. i.e. While I'm sure part of the reason why some crimes occur is the "getting caught" factor, CCTV doesn't solve poverty, underlying sexual deviancy, or social dissatisfaction. But this may be the stuff of another thread.

2) Also, although we would like to expect total transparency from all Private and National institutions, history teaches us that this is not necessarily a safe bet. For example, I have heard before how "Police CCTV" tapes and other such evidence have "gone missing" (etc), after a wrongly arrested citizen has turned around and prosecuted the Police for assault. Who controls the recording? As lord henry wotton said, "Who watches the watchers?"

I understand the points about these measures falling into the wrong hands (eg. An unaccountable, undemocratic government), but that’s true of every instrument of the state, be it the police, the army, the secret services, what have you. The possibility of this happening hasn’t so far stopped us establishing those.

Indeed, but look what we've done with these instruments. I agree with fridgemagnet on this.


May I also add that I believe there's a general cultural shift towards the acceptance of cameras (in all their forms) as a kind of necessary symbiotic limb of humanity. My strain of vanity means that I absolutely hate being photographed or filmed, and of the past couple of years I have noticed it is getting increasingly harder to avoid the gaze of the lens. I used to be able to steal (then destroy) photographs of myself from friends when they weren't looking, now I have to duck camera phones and CCTV or else teach myself how to become a black-belt in computer hackery to save my soul from being stolen and stored (joke). Also, we all know how the camera can affect people's behaviour (they know they are being watched, etc) and I've met people who would probably cease to exist if all eyes weren't on them, i.e. the cult of celebrity. But as contestants say on Big Brother "You forget the cameras are there..." Does anyone else find this worrying?

(I was about to post the above, when I noticed Smoothly and Haus' recent posts, which on first reading really got me thinking. I'm going to go away now and think for a while, but I thought I'd post this anyway. Until my return I hope my post doesn't stick out like a saw thumb, seeming dated due to it's positioning in the thread, etc).
 
 
alterity
14:21 / 08.06.05
Sorry if I wasn’t clear – I didn’t mean that anyone can watch whatever’s happening in your bathroom whenever you like, merely that it would be recorded and those recordings could be retrieved by someone with the appropriate authority.

Are you actually saying that you think putting CCTV in people's bathrooms is a good idea? And what constitutes "appropriate authority"? Just because someone has "appropriate authority" does not mean s/he will use it appropriately. I will never trust the government to use its power with restraint. The whole of the Bush administration has been one power grab after another: the elimination of due process, the erosion of privacy rights, the destruction of the Bill of Rights in general.

Frankly, I think you’ll find you *will* accept the privacy of your bank statements being compromised the moment you’re accused of fraud, file for bankruptcy or file a tax return.

This is not a compromise of privacy. If I ask someone into my home (cops included) I am waiving privacy. It is my choice. If the cops barge into my home without my consent it is invasion (unless they have a warrant issued by a separate part of the government, the judicial system; this is known as separation of powers and is meant to keep the branches in check; at least in the US). Waiving one's rights should always remain in the purview of the individual and should not be a decision made by the government for the individual.


Forgive my ignorance but is privacy specifically protected by the US Constitution? There might be judicial precedent for respecting privacy in some circumstances. . .


There is great debate over what the Bill of Rights protects in terms of privacy. The Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

In other words, your home and person cannot be invaded without your consent or due process. Moreover, in 1967 the Supreme Court ruled that individuals have the right to a "reasonable expectation of privacy", meaning that if s/he does something publicly, or even in front of an open window, and someone sees, then it is admissible as evidence in court even without a warrant. However, this does protect privacy rights also, so long as there is a reasonable expectation (as in bank statements that only you have access to through a secret code). While you seem to begin to dismiss case law precedent, it is one of the most important aspects of constitutional interpretation and implementation. US Supreme Court justices routinely consult centuries old British common law arguments to make contemporary decisions, and certain US cases (Plessey vs. Ferguson, Marbury vs. Madison, Brown vs. Board of Education) have served to provide the tenets of constitutional implementation (with real everyday effects and consequences) for vast stretches of American history.

As for religious freedoms, LHW, my point was more that states only ever respect them where they do not conflict with that state’s laws.

You might actually say that modern society is less "unwatched", because many of the people living in it don't believe that God is watching them all the time.

These two statements are part and parcel of why I have strong opinions on this subject. In the US right now, if religion conflicts with federal or state law, religion wins (as long as it's Christianity) and the laws are changed (or at least there is a lot of noise about changing the laws so that the right can stay in power). These people do actually believe that God is watching them. Because of their piety and sheer belief that they are above guilt or suspicion, they advocate the "if I'm innocent I've got nothing to hide" mentality, feeling that Muslims should be tagged and followed around like wild animals as they clearly all have predilections for suicide bombing. If you don't believe me, you should try stopping by Lackawanna, NY where the FBI still routinely harasses Muslim American citizens two or three years after the so-called Lackawanna Six were arrested on trumped up charges of terrorism and coerced into confessions without receiving adequate counsel.

Is CCTV really a valid deterrent, and does this line of thought fully address the real issue of why such crime occurs? It's like a band-aid on a huge gaping wound.

Point exactly. Rather than focusing on better ways to catch and punish, why not try to address the causes of crime? I understand that no one in the US wants to here about reforming Bin Laden. (I don't, although I am against the death penalty and assassination in every respect.) However, rather than "bombing them into the Stone Age" (where did we get that stupid expression?), why not try to actually understand why "they" are so upset to begin with. It's odd, that in a surveillance society there is so little room for looking at oneself, for introspection. The panopticon is never turned inwards to attempt to discover the problems behind what really amount to symptoms: crime, terror, corruption, etc.
 
 
Smoothly
15:33 / 08.06.05
Are you actually saying that you think putting CCTV in people's bathrooms is a good idea? And what constitutes "appropriate authority"? Just because someone has "appropriate authority" does not mean s/he will use it appropriately. I will never trust the government to use its power with restraint.

I’m suggesting it might be a good idea, yes. Well, I’m asking what’s wrong with it in an attempt to get to grips what it is that’s troubling about being the Watched, or appealing about being the great Unwatched.
Although I understand and largely agree with the ‘abuse of power’ argument, I do wonder if there isn’t more to it than that. I suspect that if we stripped that out of the equation, the idea of being under constant surveillance would still bother people for various other reasons, and I was kinda hoping to tease those out. Haus, for instance, mentions dignity. I think there’s something to that, but I’m still mulling it over. Paranoidwriter, appropriately, thinks it might precipitate greater paranoia. Again, I’m not sure how that might work, but I have some sense of how that might be the case. I’d quite like to draw that out a bit. What are the psychological consequences? Do we *need* to feel unobserved some of the time? Complete visibility would, it seems, change the way we relate to our environment, and given that we *are* survielled in this way a great deal of the time (probably most of the time if you live in a big city) – some of the consequences of my imaginary CCTV regime might well be in (increasing) evidence already. That’s what I was getting at. It’s open to abuse; fine, I agree, of course it is. Nothing else?


This is not a compromise of privacy. If I ask someone into my home (cops included) I am waiving privacy. It is my choice. If the cops barge into my home without my consent it is invasion (unless they have a warrant issued by a separate part of the government, the judicial system; this is known as separation of powers and is meant to keep the branches in check; at least in the US). [Italics mine]

That’s a big ‘unless’. And that was my point. Your privacy can already be invaded without your consent in the way that you suggest. In fact, you seem to be saying that if the invasion is signed off by the judiciary (apparently an incorruptible arm of the state), it amounts to you waiving it. Or am I misreading you.
I wanted to make my CCTV scenario as much like the current state of affairs as possible with the one crucial difference being that there is *no* escape from the cameras. Having very restricted privacy doesn’t seem to bother people terribly much – they quite like it in fact, as long as the ‘bad guys’ are being watched too. But having *no* privacy freaks people out, and I wonder why.

Incidentally, I only brought up the crime-busting power of CCTV to offer something to weigh our hostility to the CCTV panopticon against. It was set-dressing really. I didn’t even mean to present the argument that CCTV was a panacea for crime. Sorry if that was distracting.

It's odd, that in a surveillance society there is so little room for looking at oneself, for introspection.

This is interesting though. What do you mean?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:57 / 08.06.05
But, points out our sophisticated reader, God wasn't watching them, was he? Perhaps not. But then, haven't you heard that many speed cameras are not loaded with film? For that mattter, in Smoothly's world of total visibility, if 60 million people are being watched 24 hours a day, who is monitoring all that information?

This is very intriguing, as were Vincennes' comments about American Puritan settlements, etc. However, I imagine that the majority of the world still feels they are being watched by a spiritual, omnipotent, and omnipresent force of some kind, as well as their neighbours and the State as a whole (Middle England, the worldwide growth of Islam, the Evangelical Christian Churches in the USA, etc). It seems to me there are two planes of thought here: a purely philosophical discussion of "being watched and watching"; and the more practical reality of being watched today in our "Western" society through the development of increasingly sophisticated technology. Am I wrong? I just wanted to clarify...
 
 
alterity
17:22 / 08.06.05
Your privacy can already be invaded without your consent in the way that you suggest. In fact, you seem to be saying that if the invasion is signed off by the judiciary (apparently an incorruptible arm of the state), it amounts to you waiving it. Or am I misreading you.

Or I am not stating my case well. Yes, my privacy can be invaded without my consent, but in a manner that is entirely described by law and involved with a series of "checks and balances" that are supposed to protect me from the abuses of small segments of society, e.g. the executive branch of government. The executive branch is supposed to enforce the law, and in that capacity has a tendency to seek means of enforcement that overstep the boundaries written into the constitution. The judiciary interprets the law and tells the executive branch what is permissible or not in regards to citizens' constitutional rights. Any individual may wive the rights granted by the constitution at any time or they may be circumvented via judicial order. In the former case, it is the choice of the individual. In the latter case it is done for the public good only after what should be rigorous analysis, presentation of just cause and evidence, etc. Of course, the judiciary is not incorruptible, however. We do like to think so, and the right wing in the States likes to call interpretations of law that it does not agree with "judicial activism", which I suppose they mean to oppose to a literal interpretation, completely objective. Of course such interpretation does not exist and all readings of law will be subject to personal politics, even if unconsciously. So to say the judicial system is corrupt is just another way of saying that everyone is corrupt, if by "corrupt" we mean something along the lines of "influenced by subjective reasoning" as opposed to "completely pure and without bias." That's a-whole-nother issue, however.

It's odd, that in a surveillance society there is so little room for looking at oneself, for introspection.

This is interesting though. What do you mean?


I didn't mean anything having to do with the individual, although I suppose that that is also the case. What I meant is that the US government is obsessed right now with monitoring the activities of certain groups: Muslims, immigrants, activist groups, etc. They place the problem "out there." The people who critique the US--whether it is through the vote (voting for Kerry or Nader), through political speech as do activists, or through violence (I understand terrorism as a form of [terribly misguided and unproductive] political action)--are to blame. The problem is their's; it's in their head. There is nothing wrong with the United States, or so the government would have us believe. Gitmo a gulag? Absurd. Bin Laden hates us because of our Middle East policies? Crazy. He's just evil. So we spend all of this time policing a great unknown "them", looking for threats. However, we never spend any time examining the threat that we represent to others. We never turn the gaze inward and examine our own policies and try to understand how the world might see us. This is not to say that we would or should necessarily agree with the world when and if we should do this. The US might be right sometimes. However, it seems that the alacrity for surveillance is in part an attempt to divert attention away from where it is needed most. Who can or will watch the watchers when our attention is constantly directed toward the watched?

In the end, I guess that this is part of the reason I am so disturbed by attempts to expand surveillance. As several people have pointed out: all of that data is hard to analyze. Most of it will slip through the cracks. My guess is that the stuff most likely to slip through is the stuff we most need to know about: the stuff that the government does in our name. I once saw Tom Clancy speak (I know, I know. . . Tom Clancy?). One of the things that he said I will never forget: real secrets are not really secrets. They're right out in the open, like Poe's purloined letter (I added the bit about Poe). The thing is, they're buried in the midst of so much information that they are often impossible to see distinctly. People get paid rather well to see the secrets inside data. They make great stockbrokers and spys. The point is that citizens, who are largely unorganized, will always lose in the surveillance society because they lack the resources of the government. The government can not only watch, but has the means to process information and put its analyses to work. A citizen, or a groups of citizens, can watch and try to surveil the surveillors, but they will most likely fail because they don't have the resources to keep up with the data flow. the government needs to make itself more visible, and part of doing so includes the limitation of surveillance of the public, which, I argue, diverts attention away from itself.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
18:25 / 08.06.05
That’s what I was getting at. It’s open to abuse; fine, I agree, of course it is. Nothing else?

Good point. From Bentham onward, and especially in the works of Foucault, the point that people modify their behavior when they feel that they are being watched has been well made. However, this has mostly been in regard to the obeying of laws. The effect goes way beyond this. To give an example, I have a small group of close friends with whom I know I can be totally open. We know each other very well, have similar views in most cases, and know where the lines are drawn. As a result, some of the things that are said would be considered beyond the pale, even down right offencive, by large groups of people. I would never speak as freely in the office, down the pub, or even on the 'lith, because I do not have the same knowledge of the people who may overhear/read my outburst. They may be offended, and that is not what I want, so I censor myself in these more public enviroments.

Now, if cameras, listening devices, whatever, are installed in my flat, and I don't know who might be watching/listening, I loose this private space in which I can give flight to whatever may be in my head. The result is 24/7 self-censorship. Rather than saving my more outlandish rants for the appropriate time and place, I now have to suppress them permanently. I am tempted to say that this would drive me insane. More realistically I think that it would result in a personality change in which I limit my thinking solely to that which is socialy acceptable. This cannot be desirable in any 'free' society.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
21:37 / 08.06.05
LHW - I entirely agree. It seems to follow that universal surveillance and the elimination of privacy creates a permanent state of "public persona" for private individuals. I'd be interested to see what effect Smoothly's example would have on, for example, someone 'discovering their sexuality' to use a hideous term - certainly in my case, admitting to being (or acting) anything other than entirely heterosexual was only possible in extremely private situations at first, and I can't imagine doing anything of the sort with cameras watching. I'm aware that I'm almost attacking a straw man here, but I think the point stands that some things can only take place at all in "private".

Of course, the counter-argument is perhaps that if that's the case, then you shouldn't be doing them at all...
 
  

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