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Antony & The Johnsons

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GogMickGog

14:03 / 15.11.05

This is entirely what I have been trying (and apparently failing) to express.

To assert that his music is all about being a transsexual is maybe as limited a view as stating that Nick Cave's music is all about religion. It's just not as clear cut as that. There is an element of storytelling and narrative going on.

The key difference though, is that Cave’s music is able to step away from this one strand, whereas I feel that Antony’s music is entirely bound within the context, and one’s inherent interest in the sexual/identity themes his music covers.
They hold no interest for me, and thus undermine any emotional connection I might feel with the music. For me, at least, the same can be said of gangsta rap, and the more virulently gay-bashing end of danchell.

To me, the image and style of the artist have been utterly over-emphasised and over-publicised in comparison with the music and its relative quality.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:41 / 15.11.05

Look, Petey has decided it's wrong not to like Antony and his music, so let us all put on those t-shirts he made saying 'we are homophobic transphobic arsehats who like Travis' and move on shall we?

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:52 / 15.11.05

Oh pay attention, Lady, I've certainly decided no such thing - I'm not a huge fan myself, and agree with Xoc that his finest moment (that I've heard) is on Rufus Wainwright's 'Old Whore's Diet'. However I reserve the right to be amused by the people who can't get pase the 'image'/'schtick'.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:57 / 15.11.05

I feel that Antony’s music is entirely bound within the context, and one’s inherent interest in the sexual/identity themes his music covers.

Here are the lyrics to 'Hope There's Someone', a song I'm only mildly fond of. In what way are they "bound within the context" of his sexuality?

GogMickGog

14:57 / 15.11.05

I suppose that's my problem: I'm un-accountably shallow.

Oh, and I hate the gays.

Mmothra

17:48 / 15.11.05

Part of the problem is that I Am A Bird Now is a rather mediocre affair...too many cameo appearances dilute the mood that someone previously mentioned. His first record has much more consistency and feeling, at least for this listener.

Regarding his "schtick", I am not sure what you want him to do...the arrangements are quite good, his vocals are lovely (if wearingly saccharine over time), and the lyrics deal with a variety of subjects: love, loss, abuse, ass-fucking...all the predominant rock and roll topics (drugs seem to be the only missing element).

I can absolutely understand not liking his music but this excessive analysis seems futile.

All Acting Regiment

17:55 / 15.11.05

I think we can probably leave this thread alone now, unless anyone wants to go back to what we were talking about before the beatings with schticks. People have revealed some opinions that have been derided for verging on homophobia, they've assured us it's not homophobia at all, it's all out of the way.

All Acting Regiment

17:56 / 15.11.05

Well, even if it's not, it would be good if it was.

Ganesh

18:49 / 15.11.05

This refers to the thread in general, not his comment about bleating on about being in love.

Which makes me wonder why you said "Ganesh - I'm sensing a little hostility" rather than "Thread in general - I'm sensing a little hostility".

matthew.

18:57 / 15.11.05

Apologies. I wasn't being clear. I meant, Ganesh, your attitudes to the development of the thread.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

19:06 / 15.11.05

Can I just check, I wasn't aware that the version of his album had any cameos in it, but I had a Torrented version without any sleevenotes, can someone give some details about who else was on there?

Mistoffelees

19:38 / 15.11.05

Rufus Wainwright takes the lead on "What Can I Do?".

Boy George joins Antony for a duet on the soulful and empowering "You Are My Sister".

Devendra Banhart lends his warbly tenor to the lush "Spiraling".

Lou Reed plays noodly guitar and recites an anonymous poem on the mischievous "Fistful of Love."

~ nicked from amazon.co.uk ~

Ganesh

19:39 / 15.11.05

I suppose that's my problem: I'm un-accountably shallow.

Oh, and I hate the gays.

I don't think anyone's said that. You do seem confused about the difference between gender (transsexual) and sexuality (homosexual). Would you like someone to explain it to you?

GogMickGog

19:43 / 15.11.05

I would have thought such issues would be dis-regarded given the evident irony with which that comment was made.

But please, you seem to have made it your job to patronise those with whom you disagree.
Go ahead..

Ganesh

19:54 / 15.11.05

I don't think "irony" itself justifies conflation of 'homosexual' and 'transsexual', just as I don't think it's particularly patronising of me to offer to explain the difference to you. I'll even do it via PM, if you like.

If you're well aware of the difference, however, let me know, and I won't bother.

Ganesh

20:00 / 15.11.05

Apologies. I wasn't being clear. I meant, Ganesh, your attitudes to the development of the thread.

Still not hugely clear, I'm afraid. Are you suggesting hostility on my part to "the development of the thread"?

GogMickGog

20:37 / 15.11.05

All I meant Ganesh, was that any ignorance shown by conflating the two different concepts was inherent to the deliberate moronicism of the statement I made.

In laymans' terms, it was a joke.

Much as the concept of engaging in a private PM conversation with you thrills me, I regret that time demands etc mean I must turn down said offer.
Apologies for any emotional distress this may or may not cause on your behalf.

Ganesh

20:54 / 15.11.05

No emotional distress. Just relief that your transsexual/gay moronism was simulated for humorous purposes.

Ganesh

20:56 / 15.11.05

Layman: I'm glad you're not the reactionary fuckwit you appeared to be.

matthew.

21:54 / 15.11.05

Oy. I meant, Ganesh, that you seemed to be increasingly hostile to both me and Mick because we both agreed that Antony's gender was the selling point of the music over the music, and some of us said jokes instead of clarifying our positions. To be as clear as I can (hopefully), I love Antony because of his music and not his gender, which was at first a non-issue, but now seems to be a controversy caused by joking insensitivity.

And also, more onto the thread,

I really did not like Boy George's appearance on the album. I don't think it creates a very nice contrast to Antony's warble. Rufus' appearance made Antony look amateurish. Which is unfortunate because the very first track (him and a piano) completely sold me on the rest of the CD (until of course, boy george)

What I did like was that gorgeous photo on the front. Just beautiful.

Ganesh

22:02 / 15.11.05

I meant, Ganesh, that you seemed to be increasingly hostile to both me and Mick because we both agreed that Antony's gender was the selling point of the music over the music, and some of us said jokes instead of clarifying our positions.

Jokes, eh? I took issue with your contention that Antony's gender was the selling point of the music (Mick talked instead of Antony's sexuality, which confused things somewhat) and expressed this in a way which might equally be claimed to be a "joke" but which was perceived by you as hostile. How come when you say someone's too queer it's a joke, but when I say someone's too straight it's "increasingly hostile"?

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:10 / 15.11.05

Before the kids keep digging, could I bring up something that seems to have gotten lost? I'm looking at the lyrics to "Hope there's someone", and I'm not seeing much in the way of homosexuality, transexuality or transvestism in there. Is this an aberration? I haven't listened too often to the album, but it didn't seem immediately to me obviously either gay or trans - if Anthony sounds like anyone, it's an amalgamation of various vocal treatments of "Wild is the Wind" - there's maybe a sort of Tiny Tim vibe in there...

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:03 / 16.11.05

Well I'm confused now, thanks to the ever helpful layers of "it was a joke!" / "how dare you call me etc etc" that have been smeared on this thread like so much unwanted mayonnaise on a ham sandwich. I'd ask Mick-Travis to clarify what he meant by:

I feel that Antony’s music is entirely bound within the context, and one’s inherent interest in the sexual/identity themes his music covers.

- and how he thinks that applies to various Antony & The Johnsons songs, such as his cover of 'Free At Last', but I suspect the answer might be content-free and defensive. I'm happy to be proved wrong, though.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:56 / 16.11.05

there's maybe a sort of Tiny Tim vibe in there...

That makes a lot of sense- I first heard of Antony when he was being championed by David Tibet of Current 93 (there was a split single, as I recall, and A&theJs were the regular C93 support act for a while) who also attempted to restart Tiny Tim's career shortly before he died. (Also Antony's voice reminds me of a very old recording of the last surviving castrato, also extensively used by C93- it has that same eerie, hard-to-place tone- as someone said upthread, it's almost deep and high at the same time).

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:01 / 17.11.05

I had the misfortune of being made aware of A&tJ through NME, who have no hang-ups about sex, sexuality or gender whatsoever no sirree.

Hopefully this thread will stand as a warning that 'Humour is a dangerous thing and should be used carefully'.

The Return Of Rothkoid

01:01 / 06.12.05

Well, I like 'em. Possibly because I avoided listening thanks to the brouhaha about Antony's image, until recently, when I heard the first album, and was very impressed. (It probably helps that I've been buying a bit of Roxy Music vinyl lately, which greases the skids a certain amount.)

It's theatrical and borrows like fuck, but I do enjoy it in the same way I enjoy Scott Walker: at very certain times, in very certain doses. It's something that has the possibility to shit me to tears, though - that much is certain.

I'll be interested to see him and his band live as part of the Sydney Festival. At least then, I'll know that if it sucks, I've got a week's worth of Tiger Lillies shows I can line up for.

Supaglue

12:23 / 12.12.05

both me and Mick because we both agreed that Antony's gender was the selling point of the music over the music

Saw them live the other week and I have to say it was a very low-key affair. More like being at a jazz club - more intimate. Anyway, the upshot of it was that neither Anthony, nor his Johnstons [cue: schoolby sniggering] made any particular gesture towards his gender or sexuality. He wore all black and sat at a piano and played.

Ria

03:59 / 19.12.05

Stoatie,

guess you hadn't heard about "natural castratos" (male singers who have one of several conditions which arrests sexual devlopment before puberty) like the American vocalist Jimmy Scott.

so I don't know about the "last" part of "last castrato".

one thing to say that I will add just because it annoyed me. THE NEW YORKER described Antony Johnson as "transgendered" in one of those listings at the begining of the magazine. readers of the magazine will read that and get more confused than ever as to what TG really means (not that TG really means anything, hence I don't like the term). it irked me, anyway.

they meant genderqueer or genderfucked, but of course they reached for the first term that came to mind, probably not knowing any other.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

04:06 / 19.12.05

I hadn't, actually- may have to check him out. Cheers!

Ganesh

09:09 / 19.12.05

I suppose the term 'castrato' has a particular historical/cultural dimension ie. male singers castrated before puberty specifically to preserve their soprano(?) voices - hence Stoatie talking about the last one. It's interesting to hear about singers with 'incidental' arrested or delayed puberty, though, for other (non 'man-made') reasons. Are there any others who fit into that latter category?

Ria

14:06 / 19.12.05

okay, only say that, pending genetic surgery, we haven't heard the last castrato yet.

the Wikipedia entry on castratos has more information, though it does not mention Jimmy Scott.

I came across the mention of Scott by searching for Kallmann's, a genetic condition which Scott happened to have. a medical paper on Kallmann's that I saw mentioned that many natural castratos had Kallmann's. for information on Kallmann's you can, again, go to Wikipedia.

Anthony

05:48 / 27.12.05

just caught one of their songs for the first time... struck me as being rather wonderful... i love the way the piano is effected with a gated reverb similar to MBV's guitar sound. Superb voice also, obviously.

Anthony

05:52 / 27.12.05

"both me and Mick because we both agreed that Antony's gender was the selling point of the music over the music"

the music's great. some awful, haunted gothic post-lynchian vibes there... the only thing that does strike me as wrong is why everyone feels the need to be so retro and when music is going to start to look forwards again instead of backwards but... he does what he does extremely well and maybe a few years down the line could be on a par with Nick Cave in importance.

Chiropteran

15:06 / 26.01.06

Does anyone have any suggestions as to which A&TJ album would be the best one to pick up first? (I have enough downloads left on eMusic this month to get one of the full-length albums or the EP's - where do I start?)

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:43 / 26.01.06

Buy the first one- it's much better, and has "Cripple And The Starfish" on, which is imho is best song.

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