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The rights and wrongs of experiments on animals

 
  

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sleazenation
10:51 / 01.06.05
Kind of inspired by the thread of killinig other living things I was wondering what people though about animal experimentation. Is there a difference in testing cosmetics on animals and testing new medicines on them? What do you think?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:31 / 01.06.05
Cosmetics are't neccesary for life (though they are an important part of our culture, for better or worse) whereas medecines can and do save lives. So, you could argue that though you are restricting liberties and causing pain, you are making the world a better place by testing meds on animals.

On the other hand, you could say that by allowing such things to happen to animals you are creating a message that says it is acceptable to cause pain and unhapiness.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
11:41 / 01.06.05
The first question to ask is where you draw the line between cosmetics and medicine? As a point of interest I read this a while ago on NewScientist.

Basially scientists have been working on breast implants grown from the persons own cells. Much of this research has involved animal experimentation (mice are mentioned in the article but several stages of 'higher' animals would also have to be used before the operation could be performed on humans). Is this research cosmetic or medical? For some breast implants may be purely cosmetic but for women who have had a mastectomy due to cancer I'm not sure that this is the case.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
13:18 / 01.06.05
sleazenation, generally animal experimentation is a bad idea.

For two main reasons : firstly and practically it has an extraordinarily poor success record, but even if a good success record was available the ethical issue does remain a problem. Which is the ethical issue of deliberately causing pain and suffering to other living beings in your own deluded self interest, in brief the argument goes that we should not deliberately inflict pain suffering on others.

s
 
 
JOY NO WRY
14:09 / 01.06.05
firstly and practically it has an extraordinarily poor success record

Like you said, this doesn't directly deal with the moral issue, but I think it is worth pointing out that when you do get successes with this kind of testing it can be worth it. I seem to remember
 
 
JOY NO WRY
14:17 / 01.06.05
that the development of antiseptics, vaccines and anaesthetics have all been attributed to tests carried out in this way. So in terms of the preservation of human life there is a definate moral basis for animal testing.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
16:05 / 01.06.05
"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom." Gandalf said that.

no wisdom in torturing animals. regardless of what "medicines" come out of it - we've had medicine to deal with our ailments for thousands of years - we're causing such huge amounts of suffering for the sake of applying scientific principles to what we've known all along...

plants and fungus are medicine. why do we insist on making them into pill form and testing them on animals?

it's silly - pointless - unnecessary and cruel...

and remember, some things just kill you.

maybe you don't need that pig liver transplant after all.

ta
pablo
 
 
JOY NO WRY
16:44 / 01.06.05
no wisdom in torturing animals. regardless of what "medicines" come out of it - we've had medicine to deal with our ailments for thousands of years - we're causing such huge amounts of suffering for the sake of applying scientific principles to what we've known all along...

I don't suppose you could gave an example? I'm rather of the opinion that medical science has come along a bit in the last few thousand years, actually.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:06 / 01.06.05
I'm rather of the opinion that medical science has come along a bit in the last few thousand years

Depending on how you define "medical science" I don't think it's even four hundred years old.

allopathic medicine excels at putting people back together - my guess is as a result of having developed much of its strengths on the battlefield - if you're in an automobile accident, you want the allopath on your side. they can reattach toes.

if you've got symptoms of disease, the allopath is less likely to treat the ailment as the symptoms. much easier to cut out a tumour than ask someone to change a lifetime worth of habits.

besides, if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.

I don't mean to dis "medical science" for its positive accomplishments, only pointing out what I see as shortcomings.

The pharmaceutical industry (now the world's largest money-maker, I believe) and its recent aggressive marketing is in the process of destroying our relationship with our pill-pushers. Marketing agencies work hard at selling medication for profit. the profit takes priority over the medicinal properties and possible side-effects.

effects and side-effects seem loosely defined. a side-effect is an effect that is de-emphasized.

if you want examples of ancient medicines, check out any book on herbology - reams and reams of words about the medicinal properties of plants and fungi (and animals, but I don't ingest them as a matter of course).

if we feel we must be cruel in order to benefit ourselves, then we've got it wrong and should think up something that embodies a little more compassion. it's my humble opinion, but I have yet to hear any compelling argument for cruelty.

happy Tiw's Day
pablo
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:08 / 01.06.05
As people here know, I am very much in favour of scientific research and its achievements. I am in awe of the advances that have been achieved, and modern medicine might seem miraculous to our ancestors.

But that clearly isn't enough. I'm not sure I can argue the case for taking into account the ethics of prevention of suffering to animals - it is too fundamental to argue, in a sense - so I'll just assume that we all agree that torturing animals is a wrong in itself. Certainly, it is hard to imagine the wanton suffering of animals to no end in anything but an extremely critical light.

OK. I'm hoping everyone is still with me. So the question becomes whether we can balance the suffering of others - animals, in this case - against the potential benefits to medicine and human well-being. Having said that, there are those who would argue that animal suffering has no moral weight, and that we should see God's creatures as instruments and resources to be used for human gain. At that extreme, I have no time for this argument, though I should be careful not to attack too many straw men.

On the other hand there are those who will argue that the suffering cannot ever be justified. The sanctity of life and the cruelty of experimentation are too great to be balanced by the need to develop a better cream for atheletes foot. And I think that implicitly, and often explicitly, people on this side are not just making a case against the abomination of animal torture, but also making a claim about the efficacy of animal experimentation.

I have to confess at this point that I am far more ignorant than I would like to be. I'm not sure I am really able to assess this potentially technical issue. How much would we lose by giving up animal experimentation? I have some biochemist friends who assure me that we would lose *something*, but I am never particularly satisfied that they aren't more distressed about losing an outlet for their intellectual curiosity (I don't know any people who actual experiment on animals, so this is all at one remove in a way).

Even conceding (not everyone does) that medical research would be harmed by a ban on animal testing, I think you are still potentially left with a problem. How do you decide if the harm is justifiable? Are the gruesome pictures of animals being tortured for cosmetics enough? I don't know. But I do know that the way lots of people would object to the entire way I've framed the question. After all, if we were *really* most concerned about saving, extending and improving the quality of life there are a thousand well understood things that we could do to achieve that. From this point of view, animal experimentation is an abonimation justified by an obscene decadence. When I look at the world, I find it hard not to have sympathy with that point of view.
 
 
gravitybitch
01:38 / 03.06.05
Have to weigh in on this as one of the resident scientists.

I'm against cosmetic and food-additive testing in animals. Really, there is no point. But medical research is a completely different topic, and I'm not saying that just to defend my paycheck...

Most of the animal research that I'm aware of is being used to pick apart disease systems - to look at what goes wrong, *causes* the problem - rather than testing palliative measures. Things like teasing apart the genetic and environmental factors in diseases like lupus (if one of a pair of identical twins has lupus, odds are only about 50% the other twin will also have it).... Things like working out the links between inflammation, stress, and heart disease (everybody flosses, right? turns out that's one of the easiest things one can do to cut cardiac risks).

Also - most animals aren't "experimented on" as such. A large percentage of lab mice and rats are genetically modified in one way or another (or bred) to model a disease, and are just raised, euthanised in a very humane manner, and then their *tissues* are used for experiments. There's very little ethical difference between this and animals raised for slaughter for food; in general there is more and better oversight for how lab animals are treated than there is for food animals. (if you aren't a vegetarian, I won't listen to you complain!)
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:49 / 03.06.05
Thats interesting iszabelle. But, leaving aside the ethical issue for a moment, I think the picture on my side of the fence, as someone who doesn't know enough about biology, biochemistry and medicine, is still less than clear.

Perhaps I am overestimating the level of knowledge I would really need to comptently judge for myself on the benefits of testing with and on animals in medicine, but I don't think so. And so I have to decide this kind of issue on listening and gauging expert opinion. One thing to be said is that the majority (vast majority?) of the medical profession seem to be in favour of animal testing. That said, there are some exceptions and some of the anti-vivisection (anti all animal testing, in fact) come across as reasonably articulate. I like to think I can spot science bullshit fairly easily, but the Americans Europeans Japanese
For Medical Advancement
have a good patter, and this pdf article makes an interesting case (lots of argument and quotes from scientists. I have no idea how good an argument it really is, though one person described animal models as a "glass bead game", which strikes me as very strong language coming from a scientist - David Horribin - working as a chairman of biotech company). There are lots more on the site.

For the layman like me, a couple of things stand out as arguments against animal testing. One, there is the argument that animals are sufficiently different from humans so as to invalidate animal models. Now, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and the fact that this sounds convincing to me (esecially when you throw in words like complexity and emergent behaviour, yadda, yadda) may speak only to my own ignorance. Next, the failure of most scientists to oppose animal testing is explained by some as an upshot of path dependency. That is, animal testing has been used extensively in the past and has an established track record as a "good" way to generate research. The counter claim is that the actual efficacy of animal models is rarely challenged as to do so would upset the funding status quo . In the world of publish or perish, this is difficult to do. To my ears this sounds a *little* fanciful, but there do seem to be scientists who take this view.

Actually, this leads on to my next point which is about animal testing on cosmetics and also the horrific pictures and experiments we know do about. The point is that while many are quick to condemn these, they still go on (though not everywhere). This says to me that there is at least a segment of the scientific community which doesn't give a shit about animal suffering. Is it hard to imagine that that sort of person would see an animal as a good substitute for a test-tube even if there were no significant resarch bonus in that choice? I don't know, but it seems worth considering.

Having said that I am putting ethics to one side, I'm not sure to what extent I have really done that. There are lots of sources that argue that animal testing is crucial to the advancement of medical knowledge, like this one, which also sound convincing. Am I ignoring them because of my own idelogical blinkers? I'm really not very sure.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:53 / 03.06.05
Plants and fungus may well be medicine, but by removing the active component that actually heals you and sticking it in pill form you end up with something that's more effective at curing the problem.

Experimentation on animals is currently entirely justified, as long as it is for medical purposes. Once we reach the point where we can effectively simulate medical conditions and the effects of drugs on biological systems using computers then we can cease.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:44 / 03.06.05
I'm of the opinion that cosmetics testing is pointless and evil... Unfortunately, it's kind of embedded/entrenched (more due to corporate culture; a *bureaucracy* not being willing to change the established protocols/look for something better, than it is due to individuals lacking a sense of what constitutes ethical behavior).

I don't have time this morning to look at the pdf (maybe today at work). But, yes, animals are different. There's no question about that. Whether they're sufficiently different to render research useless depends on the system you want to look at (circulatory? digestive? immune? cognitive?) and the animal, and the disease. A lot of progress in diabetes research has been made with mice (specifically, the non-obese diabetes model)... And, like I mentioned earlier, many of these animals have been altered so as to be better and more useful models - many of them have functioning parts of a human system (human B and T cells, for example).
 
 
Broomvondle
17:12 / 03.06.05
I think animal testing can be justified for certain medical purposes however, I also think that a lot more effort needs to go into understanding how we can reduce the suffering involved. Temple Grandin, an autistic animal behaviourist believes, that animals are like autistic savants - she has a reputation for being able to predict animal behaviour intuitively. She says that often for animals, fear is more unpleasant than physical pain. This kind of knowledge could help to rethink how animal tests are conducted and make them as humane as possible.
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:45 / 03.06.05
I'm of the opinion that cosmetics testing is pointless and evil... Unfortunately, it's kind of embedded/entrenched

I think that that point is being made about all animal research, by the really anti groups. Given that even you - as a scientist - think it is true for cosmetics research, you can see how the layperson without the knowledge to work out what animal research contributes may think it is true generally?
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
19:15 / 04.06.05
"animal testing can be justified for certain medical purposes"

"Experimentation on animals is currently entirely justified, as long as it is for medical purposes.

Justified? interesting choice of words Broomvondle and Evil Scientist. Justification doesn't make right or wrong (which is the topic, no?)

it's wrong. it's an error in judgement. It's a perpetuated bad habit. it's unnecessarily cruel, imposing our perceived needs in a particular way that justifies the tampering with the life of another creature to the point where we meddle with their genes to create a biological environment for the study of particular diseases.

I'm not dissing the medical/scientific profession, or what they are hoping to accomplish, however, I think the acceptance of animal testing as necessary and justified is based on... opinion.

we can accomplish much more by taking a different tack.

and I'm feeling like a stubborn devil's advocate on this... nothing personal, everybody.

ta
pablo

ps I don't eat the animals
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:26 / 06.06.05
Fair enough, however I believe it's right to do it if it saves human lives. When it comes down to it the survival of my species is more important than that of any other. It should certainly not be done for larks, and the trauma involved should be minimised absolutely.

Alternative methods are being researched, but until then we have to work with what we have.

I do eat meat. It's yummy.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
14:29 / 06.06.05
Evilscientist..

Would you want to differentiate medical research being carried for purely financial reasons or CV based research from that which is blue sky research to save lives.

steve
 
 
Evil Scientist
15:19 / 06.06.05
I probably should have made this clear before. I believe that testing on animals should only be allowed for medical research. I don't really think it's something that should be done in the bid to make a new brand of lipstick.

But the medical research done by the drug companies is done for financial reasons alone. A company that, for instance, funds research into a new treatment for malaria isn't concerned with saving people. It's concerned with making profits for the shareholders.

The end result is that a new treatment for malaria could be produced.

That is not to say that the actual people doing the work are money hungry drones. Most people who do medical research probably feel they are doing a worthwhile thing.

I don't believe there is really a difference between medical research done for financial or blue-sky reasons. If the end result is that human lives are saved then animal testing is right.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:33 / 06.06.05
Evil Scientist. Do you really mean that any amount of human benefit balances any amount of human suffering? Surely you draw a line somewhere, and would desire the good to be somehow proportionate to the ill? You must think that, presumably, since you are opposed to animal testing on cosmetics.

If so, and I realise that this is a tricky question, where do you draw that line?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:38 / 06.06.05
What are the limits that you would set on this then, is animal experimentation acceptable for research into any medical situation including the most trivial or is it more life threatening issues you have in mind ?

I mention the above to gain an understanding on what the limits are - as already stated I think ALL animal experimentation on animals is ethically and morally unacceptable.

On bad days I wonder on the advisability and acceptability of using the medical research results from the fascist extermination camps...

s
 
 
JOY NO WRY
19:41 / 06.06.05
The thing is that nobody wants to use animals if they don't have to: for many because of the moral difficulties but for a lot of companies simply because non-animal testing methods for producing safe products are generally cheaper.

Most people seem to be arguing from the 'animal welfare' point of view, which is that its best not to use animals, but that when it is required for the benefit of humans then it should be done, just so long as it is absolutly nessecary and any suffering is minimalsed.

One or two people seem to be arguing the old P.E.T.A. style 'animal rights' view, that there isn't a moral gap between killing an animal and killing a human. I can certainly see the value in such anti-speciesist argument, but it also seems pretty impractical to me. If the concept of anti-speciesism were taken to its uttermost extreme, its absolute impracticalities become apparent. Even ignoring the mass of humanity which utterly relies upon animal products to survive in modern times, its historical implications are very heavy. The use of animals and animal products in human understanding, technology, even evolution, have proved so vital that without them it is difficult to imagine human society becoming advanced enough for such concepts as animal rights to even have a place to develop. In practical terms, animal rights can only be secured through humanity advancing to the point where it no longer requires other animals as a resource - and in pursuit of such development, currently available resources cannot be ignored.

So if you believe, from a theoretical point of view, in animal rights, I want to know: "Do you think that end can justify the means?"
 
 
Loomis
08:01 / 07.06.05
In practical terms, animal rights can only be secured through humanity advancing to the point where it no longer requires other animals as a resource

I would argue that we have in fact reached this position. The fact that we used animals and animal products in the past should have no bearing on whether we use them now that it is no longer necessary.

My default position is that we should not run any tests on animals, but I may be willing to accept situations in which the animals are well looked after and have something of an owner/pet relationship (although even this relationship is not unproblematic for me, as an old headshop thread will attest). Certainly I believe it is immoral to cause suffering to any animal, and it is the suffering more than the killing that is the clincher in this argument. I don’t eat animals because I don’t need to, but if my life depended on it then I would do so, however I would not torture the animal in the process.

As for whether the ends can ever justify the means … well I don’t really know. If torturing a thousand dogs would cure aids, would I do it? I don’t know. Similarly, if I’m at war and I know that sending a thousand men to a certain agonising death in one battle would win the war and save the lives of a million others, would I do it? Again, who can say? It’s hard to know where to draw the line.

One thought experiment that I often use when discussing animal rights is this: imagine a world where there is no such thing as animal experimentation and no one had ever done it nor considered it. Then someone pops up on the news telling the world that they’re planning to lock up a bunch of animals and inject them with various things and study the results. What do you think the reaction of the world would be?
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:41 / 07.06.05
Scintilla, my opinion as expressed above is that it is right if it saves lives . I do not believe animal testing is necessarily right in every situation that might bring minor benefit, but it depends on the benefit (is a more effective sunblock a minor benefit or a major one for example). I agree that a line has to be drawn at some point.

To be honest though, if we banned animal testing except in research for fatal diseases/conditions that would mean a whole lot of people would suffer unnecessarily. People with psychological disorders or conditions which are "merely" extremely painful rather than actually fatal would be denied something which could potentially vastly improve their lives.

(Just to make it clear though, I don't believe drugs alone will cure someone with a psychological disorder. I realise it takes a lot more than a pill to do that. But they can help people in such a position to live an easier life).

Kapok makes a very valid point. Animals are not used in research because we want to, but because they are currently the best means to gauge how something will act when introduced into a living system. The scientific world is currently researching various alternatives to animal testing but most do feel it always be needed at some level.

Here's a link to the bbc site which discusses alternatives to animal testing that are either currently in place or in development.

alternatives

Hopefully that came out alright, first time I've tried to put a link on here.

Loomis. I'm sure the reaction would be one of outrage. But the reality is we live in a world where animal testing, distasteful though some may find it, is currently necessary if we wish to improve our medical knowledge. I would most certainly kill a thousand dogs if it resulted in a cure for AIDS because I believe that human life is more important than animal life (which is an opinion I realise many do not follow).

I would find the prospect of being responsible for the death of a thousand humans to save billions to be a tougher ethical dilema for the same reason (although the logical end result is that yes I would if I was absolutely sure it would save lives).
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:48 / 07.06.05
Okay that didn't work. Perhaps we should just test harsh chemicals on PCs (glares balefully at his monitor).

Check out the bbc website's science section and look for animal testing alternatives.

Loomis, I'm sure the reaction would be one of outrage. But the reality is that we live in a world where animal testing is currently necessary in order to improve human existance. I believe that human life is vastly more important than most animal life. I would most certainly kill a thousand dogs in order to get a cure for AIDS for that very reason.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
10:51 / 07.06.05
"Can the end justify the means" - In the case in point: the use and abuse of animals to improve scientific/medical knowledge and hopefully improve human health. This case can no longer be justified, there are a number of reasons why this is the case.

Firstly: it used to be generally accepted that non-human animals had no feelings, that they could feel no pain and existed solely as a resource for human exploitation. The general consensus now is that non-human animals do indeed suffer pain, that they do can and do anticipate suffering - as such it is not acceptable to deliberately choose to inflict pain and suffering on other beings. (Utilitarians refer to them as fellow painient beings...a horrible word but a good argument.)

Secondly: it is quite wrong to denigrate and exploit our fellow human beings by asking them to torture obviously distressed non-human animals, what long term bad effects does this create within human societies ? Similar to the effects of racism, ageism and patriarchy I suggest.

Thirdly: if medical experimentation on living beings is so important and supercedes moral and ethical arguments - then why are you not arguing that they carry out the research on brain-dead humans ? If this carries the implications of the 19th C physicians carrying out medical research on Women, or the mid-century 20th C fascists experimenting on sub-humans then you are already halfway to accepting that the moral and ethical arguments should take precedence over unnecessary exploitative research.

Fourthly and to briefly produce something closer to my own reason for supporting the specism position... Differences between living beings whether human or non-human are differences-in-kind, that is to say that differences plainly do exist but that individual singularities are all of equivilant value, in other words differences between beings cannot be used to justify human action.

On the plain of difference all singularities are radically equivilant. What this means in our everyday lived practice is that in face of all the suffereing and exploitation we are aware of individual humans choose to support their local groups and communities which include both humans and non-humans in precedence to supporting those who are distent others. To supply a concrete example - I supported George-the-cat for 16 years - I could have chosen to invest the money in supporting poverty stricken and exploited villagers in Africa (or elsewhere). The ethical demand is however that you treat local humans and non-humans equivilantly and not that you use the scientific concept of a human species to justify human supremacy and perhaps ultimately human heirarchical social structures...

humm... enough I think... sorry about the length...

s
 
 
sdv (non-human)
10:56 / 07.06.05
Just read evilscientist's last note... (laughs) we approach the notion of human improvement so differently...
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:12 / 07.06.05
Well I don't recall saying the need for medical experimentation requires us to supercede ethical and moral arguments. I argue that morally and ethically it is right to conduct animal testing in order to preserve and enhance human life. Neither am I saying that we should allow scientists free reign to do whatever they like to whoever they like in the name of almighty science, quite obviously. Personally I'm glad that there are people who don't feel as I do about animals because it means research that involves animal testing is regulated and restricted, as it should be.

I do not pretend that animals are incapable of feeling pain, and agree the level of suffering should be minimised where-ever possible. The use of the term "torture" indicates that the suffering of the animal is the end intention of any research. Which is clearly not the case.

If someone truely believes that animals and humans are utterly equal in terms of human life then would it be appropriate to in fact inhibit any kind of hunting or utilisation of animals by humans? For instance should tribal societies be forced not to hunt when there are acceptable alternatives (perhaps going off topic slightly, if so I apologise)? I'm curious where the line is drawn on the other side of the debate as to what constitutes acceptable interaction with non-human organisms.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
14:47 / 07.06.05
Evilscientist - moral and ethical positions are not absolutes but are relative. To place a human-person in a tribal society or a hunter-gatherer within the same moral and ethical constraints as we should adopt is not only wrong, but I'd suggest somewhat ridiculous. I'd expect a sensible person in a tribal society to put their own livelihood, including the lives of their non-human livestock and pets before the life of a completely unknown human being (you or I for instance).

You are right however in that I would argue we should not use and abuse animals in the way that we do. The arguments about industrial and intensive farming have been repeated enough times so as to be unnecessary. But here let me repeat myself - there is no justification in the present to continue to utilize animals even in the case of genuine medical research experiments. Once one is in fact talking about pure scientific research there is no moral or ethical argument that I have heard in recent years which excuses the appalling way animals are treated.

The means cannot justify the ends - it's a very perculiar human fault which believes that an 'end' can be foretold and justified prior to the end already taking place. In fact the only thing that can be judged is the event itself - namely the countless non-humans who are caged, killed and frequently tortured - (let's not forget the many people who were experimented on using the same or similar logic). This cannot be justified by the mythical end that may not be achieved and will not be the final consequence of the research...

In practice as well as philosophically, George-the-Cats life was always more important than the majority of human-beings on the planet. Only those in the immediate human social and cultural group that I live in could be considered as equivilant in value. Philosophically it needs to be understood that - all individual subjects (singularities) - human/non-human are of equivilant value and only their social and cultural position can explain actions. Medical reserch is given value (because of the local value) - when clean water, secularism and less economic exploitation would obviously be more effective...

perhaps this is clearer...sigh still to long...
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:05 / 07.06.05
i'll label myself an animist for the sake of this post.

I don't hold a anthropocentric view particularly. I think that all living things (hell, throw in rocks and mountains, planets, astral bodies, molecules) have their own particular spirit - its particular way of behaving in its environment.

the sun inhales once & exhales once every 23 years. etc...

Why give priority to perceived benefits to our health (as opposed to our noxious body odour) over the health of another being? Why show so much disrespect for another being's exploration of what it means to be alive?

sure, we eat plants, fungi & animals to survive. Do we do it respectfully? Factory farms and the disappearance of fish stocks indicates that, no, we have behaved irresponsibly. we have not honoured a balanced relationship with the living things around us. we have tipped the scales in our favour, as short-sighted as it is, to the cost of, well, everything, including us.

as we continue to populate our crowded planet with more people and fewer animals, fewer species, we sap dry the multiplicity of life which allows for a robust existence.

so, given that's where I'm coming from (for the moment), I don't think medical research using animals, in its current state, treats these creatures respectfully. We don't use them when deemed absolutely necessary, it seems that we use them more as a matter of course.

modern medicine seems to be seeking a cure for modern living. live in a toxic city? here's some new cancer drugs! why didn't we think of eliminating cars from our city centre? why not ban pesticides from our food (poison and food make a dangerous mix. ask any fugu enthusiast)?

we're not looking at the essential root of health problems we seek to cure. In some cases, allopathic medicine treats the symptoms instead of the actual ailment causing them.

It perpetuates the problem, masks it, and creates a populace dependent on medications - (also tested on animals)

so, why don't we find a means of addressing the root of our health problems, instead of choosing to continue on the path of cruelty???

still no compelling arguments for cruelty, perceived human benefits nonwithstanding.

ta
pablo
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:34 / 08.06.05
I agree with several of your points here. There is a definite trend of over-reliance in society on pharmaceutical drugs to solve modern day problems. Use of painkillers to deal with stress headaches rather than dealing with the root cause of the stress for example. Acknowledging that our industrial society produces pollutants which enhance the risk of developing certain diseases is also important, as is taking steps to deal with those problems.

I'm an atheist myself, so I tend to apply ethics and morality in a non-spiritual manner. I also consider humans to be animals rather than some "other". However I still believe human life takes priority over other lifeforms (I'll stop repeating that now, I do go on don't I?).

For those that haven't managed to check out the BBC site on this subject here are a few examples of ways that animal research is being reduced overall and alternative methods that have been sought.

(NB: I respect that the posters who advocate a total ban will find most of these unacceptable as well, as the majority of them still result in harm or death of animals. It's to show that the scientific community is trying to reduce the numbers of animals used in research rather than just throwing an ever-increasing number of mice at the problem).

This has been taken from the bbc website, science section.

Reducing deaths: In the past toxicity of a new drug has been measured by LD50 (Lethal Dose 50%). This test required up to 200 mice, dogs, or other animals to be force-fed different amounts of the substance, to determine what level of the drug would kill exactly half of them.

Recent changes in protocol have put a ban on the LD50 test except in exceptional circumstances. In addition the Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development has said that if a substance kills the first three animals it is tested on then further testing is unnecessary.

Use of cell cultures In the 1970's the Netherlands used 5000 monkeys to produce polio vaccines. Now kidney cell cultures taken from 10 monkeys provide enough vaccine for everyone in the country.

(Additional Evil Scientist fact: In the area of the industry I work in we are using cell culture lines taken from hamsters twenty years ago).

Using new technologies: New scanning technologies (such as MRI) can help doctors learn about disease from human patients without the need for invasive surgery or animal testing.

Using fewer mammals: Horst Spielmann of ZEBET, the German centre for animal testing alternatives, has surveyed decades of industrial data on pesticides. He concluded that if mice and rats prove sensitive to a chemical it does not have to be tested on dogs. Spielmann anticipates that 70% of dog tests can now be dispensed with.

There is a general effort by researchers to use lab animals that are less likely to suffer the sensations of pain and discomfort. In Canada many studies have replaced mammals with fish, and now researchers are trying to use bacteria in tests instead of rats.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
14:42 / 08.06.05
good stuff, Evil S.

I think that stubbornly adhering to a total ban, given our current situation, is an unrealistic recipe for inaction. Working towards reducing the amount of harm done (by us) is the most we can ask for, the sooner the better... as long as we don't take so long to rest on our laurels, patting ourselves on our collective backs, that we forget what we're working towards.

ta
pablo
 
 
Brunner
11:48 / 09.06.05
modern medicine seems to be seeking a cure for modern living. live in a toxic city? here's some new cancer drugs! why didn't we think of eliminating cars from our city centre? why not ban pesticides from our food (poison and food make a dangerous mix. ask any fugu enthusiast)?

It really seems odd to me that we can curtail the lives of other animals (eating or experimenting on them) in seeking to nourish and improve our lives when the evidence of how we are guilty of killing ourselves is all around us.
Humans are the only animals capable of exploiting their environment in the way we do. Other animals can adapt within their lifetimes or evolve over many lifetimes but only humans alter themselves or their environment for reasons other than survival. And so what do we do with this "power"? We poison, pollute, deforest, over-fish, make war. And why? Because, we want it all don't we? To do what we like but absolve ourselves of responsibility, both individually and collectively if it all goes wrong or someone or something gets hurt. And because we are lazy, stupid, ignorant or selfish, we tolerate living in conditions that can harm us, or we eat foods that are bad for us, or we wage war on those who would constrain our freedoms because "someone else", scientists, politicians, even those yet to be born, will sort it out. And as we "advance" so other organisms decrease.
It's a completely irresponsible and two-faced attitude that doesn't deserve the luxury of being able to moralise about whether its right or wrong to experiment on animals.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:20 / 10.06.05
I'm curious to hear your solution for all of this.

I would point out that we're one of the few species on the planet that would risk themselves to save the lives of other species, and that the only reason animals don't exploit natural resources is because in their own environment there are ecological controls. Put a species in an alien ecosystem where there are no limits on it and watch it tear that ecosystem apart.

(Granted, such introductions most often happen due to Human intervention, but it does also occur naturally).

You do make it sound as though humans are blindly marching towards destruction. But consider that vast numbers of us actually recognise the dangers of polluting our environment and are doing something about it. It may not be enough in the opinion of some, but we are doing something about it.

By the way. Ants make war on other nests, chimpanzees war with neighbouring troops. The need to destroy rival's (even of one's own species) is not a purely human trait. If you accept humans as animals then you really should accept that animals can display negative human traits.

(I apologise for the mild threadrot. I'm not suggesting we should experiment on animals purely because they, on occasion, kill others of their own species or thoughtlessly expend resources at a detriment to their local environment. They're animals, they don't know any better).
 
  

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