BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Transducer - What to do?

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
Papess
17:44 / 31.05.05
It has been suggested that Transducer is ineffective and perhaps even a danger. I think there should be discussion as to what should be done regarding this, but first we need to look at the effects/results the Transducer working has had. Is dissolving it the best idea? Maybe not. Perhaps teaking the program, or retiring it somehow. I am not sure, but I do know I cannot, or rather should have to do it alone. This is not the place to slander or try to resolve personal issues with me, I will make another thread for that. (No, really. I will.). I do believe there may be a connection to the current state of Transducer and allegations against me, but we shall see.

I am making this thread in haste to save the "Barbelith Global and Personal Workings" thread from further rot, as that is now what is happening to it. My notes therefore, that I have handwritten are not yet included in this thread.

Pardon the haste this thread has been started inl, but we need this specific space to exist now.
 
 
electric monk
18:43 / 31.05.05
I've been following the goings-on surrounding this issue since roundabout 'PoMo Magic/Pop Culture Entities' with increasing degrees of sadness, suprise, frustration, and amazement. At last, we agree it's gone on long enough.

I consulted the cards over the weekend for a better handle on the situation. To wit:

What is the best way to deal with the Transducer?

Past - Wheel of Fortune: Changes in circumstance. Events take place beyond conscious control. I think this points to the initial creation of Transducer and the potential it had back then.

Present - Ace of Wands (Root of the Powers of Fire)reversed: Chaotic energy in need of direction/focus. A nice summation of where the Temple finds itself, IMHO.

Future - Nine of Wands (Great Strength) reversed: Confinement and confusion. The need for a fresh way of looking at a situation. Which is exactly what you've started here, Strix. Kudos.

Help that can be expected - Justice: Honesty, esp. an honest look at one's self. Perhaps indicating a need for everyone to have a little quiet time before proceeding?

What cannot be changed - Judgement reversed: Resisting the knowledge that something has changed. I'm at a bit of a loss on this one but, to hazard a guess, the situation the Transducer was birthed into has changed irrevocably. This must be taken into account before proceeding. The game has changed, and Transducer probably has too.

I think this jibes with Xyu's recent contact with the Transducer which, as far as I can tell, is the most recent contact we have on record. Unless anyone else has insight to share?

I thought this might be helpful to any action that's decided on. For personal reasons, I'm not able to offer any further help. Sorry.
 
 
Papess
19:08 / 31.05.05
I just went out to the store with my son,and I was specifically thinking that a few divinations to suss out the issues would be a good idea. Well, thank you Electric Monk!

Just an interestig note, but both my son and myself were nearly killed on the way to the store by a car that sped around the corner. Relevant? I really am not sure, but these kinds of incidents have been plaguing my life for quite a while now. If I listed them all people would be baffled as to how I am still living. I am sure am.
 
 
Papess
20:03 / 31.05.05
That doesn't strike me as a good reason to avoid shutting something down when you originally set it up Strix. For the last few pages this thread, all of your posting has steadily been characterised by a type of hysteria. I do not direct this purely at you Strix but an object like a transducer is best viewed analytically when you feel it has failed.

I suppose that is a rhetorical "you". As I am not the one who initiated the idea that there was something wrong with the Transducer.

As an observer I would suggest that you overlook rather than continue to attend to it. The majority of people will probably only want to refrain from commenting on rather than getting involved with this fight. I certainly have no interest in it whatsoever. I couldn't care less about either of your views on what may or may not have happened quite a long time ago. Any form of address that you take, any attention that you pay to past comments will only further discourage people from shutting down the transducer because they will perceive you as someone responding only emotively.

Well, this situationo has effected me emotionally as well as other ways, such as my health and well-being. However, I am not certain if that is from negativity generated by Transducer, or negativity generated by a prejudiced poster. I need to figuer that out, which is why it is important to me to address.


You have chosen to continue to contribute to barbelith, there is no problem with that but I should seriously consider whether you feel there's any need to continue this fight, an old fight, something that will not be resolved and indeed whether it is in your best interests to do so. This only calls attention to a reason that you feel led to people abandoning this working.

It was never resolved properly. I am not afraid of facing it. If personal issues with me are what is stopping other people from resolving the issues regarding Transducer, they need to think about that. Like you suggested in the other thread, why should people think that contributing to the Transducer workings, whether that is one of activation or dissolution have anything to do with involvement with me?

Step away from this thread, look away from the past,

The problem is it is not in the past, it effects me today. Not simply because I let it, but because other people use it against me. I feel the need to deal with this, but I will do so in another thread.

...start a new thread detailing only what you believe needs to be done, why it needs to be done, how it can be done and what will come of shutting the transducer done. Focus on the transducer.

That is what this thread is for. I will detail some suggestions I have, but they are only suggestions and not law.

One of those solutions, which people already seem to be favouring, is dissolution of Transducer. However, wonder how that should be done. It is one thing for one person to sever ties with Transducer, but to completely dissolve it may be another.

For example, this article pointed out by Trouser, may indicate some issues we need to deal with in a dissolution.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:58 / 31.05.05
I suppose that is a rhetorical "you"

It is.

I am not certain if that is from negativity generated by Transducer

Which is why it needs to be dealt with first and then anything else confronted once it's been sorted out.
 
 
---
23:35 / 31.05.05
Sorry for taking so long to get back with anything,

When I said transform it into a normal servitor, make an ally of it, I meant that if it turns out that it's function as the Transducer is going to be ended, then one option could be to transform it and make it work for you, or a few people or something.

I agree with the person that suggested trouser's post being helpful, that's here, also the link that's in it to the Phil Hine article on Eureka, and how that working was brought to an end. (That's already here now though, so I guess that's being looked at.)

As for the mini-transducer I was going to create, I've now decided against that for a couple of reasons : If it is to be brought to an end, it's probably best that some of the original people who started the working be the people to do that, and not someone who wasn't around when it was created/any of the original work was done. I'm skeptical of anything I'd be able to do to help end it seeing as I'm not one of the people that created/helped to create it. Can an outsider who's new to what the Transducer is do one working and really bring a proper end to the main Transducer servitor? I don't think it would have much of an effect, so I'm thinking a few original people who have worked with it, either from the beginning or from as close to that as possible would be better to do that.

Secondly, me making a mini-transducer for a short amount of time probably isn't going to be anywhere near the same as the real thing. It won't have the same programming, the same experience, the same energy, and whatever's happened to it that you think has made it stop functioning properly won't be able to be replicated either. So I'm doubting the use of doing that after having a proper think about it.

I know that you synchronized a working to launch it, maybe a synchronized closing by a few people would be a good thing to do to end it if that's possible.

What I'd do personally is evoke it, and program it with the information it needed before ending it, then I'd have a working where I visualize being sat in a field at night, the Transducer hovers above me, and then at an appointed time it slowly turns into a bird of light or something, and flies into a solar portal in the air some way above the ground. Once it's gone into the portal a shower of golden light would come back out a few seconds later and fall to the ground filling the working area in solar energy that could be the dissolved energy/what is left of the Transducer.

I'm not expecting something like this to actually happen, I'm just adding it here incase it could start one or two ideas off/lead you to a way of finishing it if that's what you decide on.
 
 
Papess
08:09 / 01.06.05
When I said transform it into a normal servitor, make an ally of it, I meant that if it turns out that it's function as the Transducer is going to be ended, then one option could be to transform it and make it work for you, or a few people or something.

I do wish this was plausible. Unfortunately, I do feel in this group working, this may be difficult to produce. However, it is not impossible.

I started a thread about what is the meaning of "For The Good of All". The Transducer would be best attuned to this intent, IMHO. Of course, there may be the need here to define, what is meant by "all" and "best".

Besides, I am not certain I am sure what normal means.


I agree with the person that suggested trouser's post being helpful,...

I believe that was both Seth and Nina, and initially suggested by Trouser. I do find it helpful. There are some marked similarities to some other Barbelith group workings. For instance:

- The Octarine ritual working was set up in a similar manner to the Transducer's.

- The task or program of the Eureka is parallel to that of I.M.P.

- Eureka "acts as a satellite...", which is definately comparable to the nature of the Barbelith servitor.


And some marked differences....

- There was no real inital deadline for the servitor's effectiveness set.

From The Eureka Report:
I had actually forgotten about the Apr 22nd deadline, and it wasn't until I realized that a conversation between myself and Ahperl wasn't cohering in quite the way it could have done, that I realized that Eureka had gone off-line.

In the last 9 months I have found Eureka to be an invaluable aid in creative writing and thinking, and I was at first quite sad that it had ceased to function. As Eureka had accumulated a good deal of power over its use-time, we decided that a decommissioning rite, whereupon Eureka was dispersed in a series of Octarine Illuminations, would be a fitting end to such a useful magical weapon.

Eureka was decommissioned by bringing it 'down' into a low earth orbit, breaking it up into 4 large chunks, which were then directed by 4 groups towards a variety of illuminatory aims - examples being breakthroughs in cheap power, and AIDS research. Finally, a shard of Eureka's octarine matter was lodged in the hearts of all present.
~The Eureka Report, Phil Hine
www.philhine.org.uk/writings/sp_eureka.html

Those last two an a half paragraphs are very useful. Although we never did have an official deadline. I never personally felt incommunicado with Transducer. I have felt concern and sometimes troubled by the issues that were raised two years ago. I was not sure how to deal with them, and you can be certain, it was not the only thing on my mind.

The "decommissioning", or dissolution, (I suppose) was not a waste. Which I find intresting. It took whatever energies (err, sensible word?), and sent that into useful arenas AND a part - a shard - was kept inthe hearts of all present. I am not suggesting we do that last bit, btw.

My point is, it is a useful model of decommissioning or dissolution. We can work upon that if all are willing.

As for the mini-transducer I was going to create, I've now decided against that for a couple of reasons :

I think it is understandable, no matter. Thank you, though.

I know that you synchronized a working to launch it, maybe a synchronized closing by a few people would be a good thing to do to end it if that's possible.

I would like that if we could, as I think that force that brought it about should be matched as closely as possible.

What I'd do personally is evoke it, and program it with the information it needed before ending it, then I'd have a working where I visualize being sat in a field at night, the Transducer hovers above me, and then at an appointed time it slowly turns into a bird of light or something, and flies into a solar portal in the air some way above the ground. Once it's gone into the portal a shower of golden light would come back out a few seconds later and fall to the ground filling the working area in solar energy that could be the dissolved energy/what is left of the Transducer.

I would have to think about that when I am in better shape. I am exhausted from work, ATM. I do like following Hine's example, to an extent.

I'm not expecting something like this to actually happen, I'm just adding it here incase it could start one or two ideas off/lead you to a way of finishing it if that's what you decide on.

Understood, thank you.
 
 
Papess
08:14 / 01.06.05
Which is why it needs to be dealt with first and then anything else confronted once it's been sorted out.

Okay, let's deal with this matter first. I will deal with whatever latter, if need be.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:25 / 01.06.05
If this was my problem, I would probably do something like conjure the transducer entity up using whatever gets its attention (play the song, give it some mango, etc...), then just have a chat with it, shoot the breeze, see what comes through, ask it what the problem is and find out what it wants. Keep it light. Stay in control. Just see what the situation is from its perspective, then base your response to it on that. It's difficult to know what to do without gathering a bit of information on the situation as a whole, and whilst divination can help, the more direct route is sometimes to simply ask the entity involved what it thinks about it all.

There's probably two options following that. On the one hand you could just thank it for all its work, give it a special treat of about 5 mangoes, and say you're done with it. Close off your connection to it. Maybe create something to physically represent it, then take that object and the remains of the offerings to some location for 'reintegration' - throw it to the sea or equivalent appropriate spot. Get a bit of proper closure and leave things on good, and final, terms.

Alternatively, you might find after talking to it and connecting up to it again, that it has some specific information to impart. Maybe it will tell you some stuff about itself and give you some pointers on how to work with it better. You could try to rebroker a new arrangement with the servitor that addresses whatever your current issues are. I think magic is always in a fluid state, and these sort of relationships are always changing and developing over time anyway, so perhaps its not unusual. Static magic is shit magic, after all. This crisis might really be an opportunity to sort out problems.

I think that either way, you really have to engage with it again and get it talking. Both options are about redefining the relationship into something that works better for you and for it. That might involve disconnection, or it might involve a whole new chapter in your relationship with it.

I reckon that if you're going for the latter option, I'd be tempted to make some totem object to represent your personal physical link to the entity. This often helps ground the whole process, so it doesn't feel so up in the air and abstract. It gives you a more direct way of relating to it, cos you've got a physical thing that you can interact with and get more of a sense of just by having it around.

Hope some of that might be useful.

PS: When I mentioned the war in the other thread, I wasn't saying the transducer caused it. More that I couldn't really see what tangible results either of these workings actually had on the world situation, which still seems more than a little fucked into a cocked hat. I've got a lot of criticisms of the efficacy of large scale workings for peace, but I can't be bothered going into any of that here. It's all in some thread or other, I'm sure. What sort of results did people have with the transducer at a more personal level? Like applying it to personal disputes and stuff like that? I'd say you can get a better sense of how something is working by pressure testing it against situations where the success/failure is self-evident. Easier to map the trajectories of an argument with your neighbour than it is to follow the effect your effort may or may not be having on a global crisis.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:08 / 01.06.05
Another option might be to get a magician who's not been involved with Transducer at all i.e someone off the board, who hasn't read all the discussions on Barbelith, and ask them to either try and make contact with the entity, psychometrise its sigil, question it with a planchette etc., and report their findings.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:29 / 01.06.05
from where i am sitting and have been reading, i can think of another resolution, there is no actual need to dissolve, destroy,kill anything. but there is a need to destroy the relationship with the transducer or perhaps even reprogram its function. i cant see that its a static creation that cannot change.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:37 / 01.06.05
all you need do is decide a new function, reiterate the sigil with slight changes and recharge the transducer for its new function, get people involved to give it new purpose meaning and definition, mutate it so it becomes relevant again.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:10 / 01.06.05
your problems start with this character Badbh Catha

The Morrígan (possibly connected to Cathobodua or Cauth Bodva [Gaul])
Also known as Mórrigan, Morrighan, Mór-Riogain, Morrígu and Morrigu, her name means "great queen" or "phantom queen." She may be an aspect of the Irish earth-goddess Ana. (MacKillop, 1998, p. 297). In her triple form she sometimes appears as the battle-furies Badbh Catha, Nemhain and The Morrigan, aspects that combine destruction, sexuality and prophecy. (Green, 1995, p. 76) They appeared in numerous animal forms, such as carrion birds. She is sometimes connected to Macha, who also can appear in triple form.

One of the Tuatha de Danaan who helped in both battles of Mag Tuireadh, The Morrigan's aspects have the ability to influence the outcome of conflict by inspiring fear or courage. As Badbh Catha, whose name means "battle-crow," she often takes the form of a crow or battle-raven. Badbh also is connected to the Battle of Clontarf in 1014, where she was said to appear over the heads of the soldiers of High King Bran when he defeated Viking invaders.

The Morrighan sometimes appears as the "Washer at the Ford," a maiden who is seen prior to battle washing the armor and weapons of those destined to die. Her ability to change from a hag into a young girl and her mating with The Dagdha in the Dinnshenchas, as well as other matings with other figures, denotes that she also is a goddess of sovereignty and fertility.

As Nemhain, whose name means "frenzy," she is the wife of Nuadha Airgetlamh, a leader of the Tuatha de Danaan. Nemhain also appears in the Ulster Cycle when she shrieks on behalf of CuChulainn at the Connacht army and 100 soldiers drop dead with fright. For a comprehensive discussion of The Morrigan, see Angelique Gulermovich Epstein's dissertation: "War Goddess: The Morrígan and her Germano-Celtic Counterparts."

thats not to say the person themselves is the problem, but crows need carrion to feed on.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:34 / 01.06.05
your problems start with this character Badbh Catha

My, that's helpful. Lay the blame on some poor poster who's login name is an Irish goddess? Just 'cos she happened to ask a question? What'ya going to do for an encore - provide a "proof" that Gypsy Lantern's obviously not to be trusted, 'cos, well, you know what they say about Gypsies....

I give up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:22 / 01.06.05
That's probably not a bad idea. Every thread that gets involved in discussing this seems to get bogged down in the same morass of accusations of slander, dark references to things unprovable, personal attacks and recriminations. Since the people who created the thing are not all still on Barbelith, and the very list of who created it is apparently open to argument, getting the band back together seems to be unworkable as a plan. In lieu of any real understanding of what the problems being caused by the Transducer right now are, all we seem to get are the tips of some vast, roiling interpersonal iceberg.

Trouser's latest suggestion - that any afflicted look for advice away from Barbelith - sounds to me a very good start, followed perhaps by a regrouping and comparing of notes.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:43 / 01.06.05
i give up too.

its the criticism that destroys the passion, read the threads. the first is realing with positivity, and good emotions.

at the point of criticism it dies, care to explain that?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:57 / 01.06.05
I'm not sure I understand the question, or indeed whether it is addressed to me. If it is, could you restate it more fully?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:10 / 01.06.05
I think a lot of the criticism of both of these workings came about because of the lack of tangible results. Pointing out something like this might kill the enthusiasm and piss on a few parades, but is essentially valuable if magic is going to be about getting things done and producing actual results - as opposed to just being an exercise in escapism and ego gratification for those involved. If a working loses some of its momentum in the face of criticism, then chances are there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
 
 
Papess
14:27 / 01.06.05
At this point I have a couple question about Trouser's suggestion: How do we find these volunteers? And if they are online, how do we know they aren't a double suit also on Barbelith? Blah, blah, blah...variables, variables...

On another note, before people start to get defensive... Badbh Catha initially put forth THE question of the Transducer's effectiveness. Which was fair enough, but at that time, this ficsuit had not been recognized as one that had anything at all to do with the initial workings of Transducer/Peace Mango. This somewhat baffles me. Other than posting in similar stylings of another poster. I am not about to question the identity of the poster, (just yet), as I have my own suspicions. I am sticking to my guns here. Which means, we shall stick to the issue of what to do with the Transducer and not fall into the slander issue.

I will say that perhaps Wolven Angels may have just pointed this poster out as the initator of discussion on the issue of Transducer's ineffectiveness.

I do have my own theory as to whom and why, but I don't want to take that any further. I am fully willing to investigate, (which is my preference before dissolution), the issues raised by Badbh Catha. This is really what I have always wanted, because without that investigation, we cannot come up with a viable response/remedy, to those issues.

My own personal answer to that post started as such:
"You raise some good questions, not exactly celebratory, but nonetheless questions that are deserving of answers, albeit my own opinion is not the last word on Peace Mango." They can be found here, right below Badbh Catha's initial post.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:38 / 01.06.05
At this point I have a couple question about Trouser's suggestion: How do we find these volunteers? And if they are online, how do we know they aren't a double suit also on Barbelith? Blah, blah, blah...variables, variables..

I may be being obtuse, but could one not take the set of people one knows who practice magic, subtract the set of people one believes to be on Barbelith, subtracts further the set of people one does not trust, leaving the set of trusted magical practitioners not believed to be on Barbelith? Then, ask one of those trusted magical practitioners if they are on Barbelith. If they say yes, remove from the set of trusted magical practitioners believed not to be on Barbelith and place in the set of trusted magical practitioners believed to be on Barbelith. If they say no, ask them to contact the Transducer. As logn as there is one person out there who ticks all the boxes (trusted, magical practitioner, not on Barbelith), this seems feasible.
 
 
Papess
14:46 / 01.06.05
Yes, that does seem feesible if one lives in a magickally oriented, or accomodating enviroment. However, finding people, within that small framework may be difficult, and at worst, unreliable.
 
 
Papess
14:48 / 01.06.05
Not that I don't think we should give it a try. I love the idea. I am just pointing out some obstacles that may arise.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:08 / 01.06.05
OK... if there is nobody you know whom you trust, who practises magic and who you do not believe is a member of Barbelith - if this is truly the case - then I would suggest that the next step may be thinking of somebody whom you trust, who practises magic and who _is_ on Barbelith. Both of these people have a number of friends and colleagues who practise magic, whom they trust, and who are not members of Barbelith, who could take an unconnected look at and chat with the Transducer and report back.
 
 
illmatic
13:30 / 02.06.05
Can I just step in here as the hopefully non-inflammatory voice of complete cynicism? Is it not possible that nothing was created by the Tranducer workings? You have a number of different people who – correct me if I’m wrong here - haven’t met - who are working to different methodologies in different parts of the globe. It strikes that a lot of the language that surrounds servitor creation is inadequate to describe this process. We talk about this things in mechanical and biological terms – “oh, I manufactured it on the astral”, yeah, I’ve been feeding him bad energy”. I think a much more accurate description of the situation might be believing – “I’ve decided to believe in an entity and part of that set of beliefs is that x action (i.e. a ritual) will birth him, and that action y will feed him. I suspect this is a more accurate description of what’s goes on in most servitor creation – and herein, I think we might have a partial explanation as to how this problem has arisen. A lot of the problems around these sort of workings are a result of the difficulty of reaching a consensus of shared beliefs. People with different ideas, explantions, expectations, desires etc - and without meatspace contact to argue the toss in, well, it’s no wonder things get confused.

Now, this isn’t intended to wind you up or attack you, May. I’m making the observation because I think the whole thing is it’s an interesting example of how “magical theory” works. Rather than seeing transducer as a real thing out there – “on the astral” or where ever, birthed by whatever analogical process, might it not be better to see it as a product of your own (and other people's beliefs), one that you are contributed to by what you chose to think and attribute to it? What do you believe about it?

If you can narrow that down (write it all down), you could them question each of beliefs in turn and see what evidence you have for each one. And, if anything does remain that makes you feel uncomfortable, then perform some kind of symbolic action to acheive closure much as GL suggests above. I think this might be a better idea than getting another party involved, who's going to bring a whole new load of impressions and intentions to the party.
 
 
Papess
22:39 / 10.06.05
Can I just step in here as the hopefully non-inflammatory voice of complete cynicism? Is it not possible that nothing was created by the Tranducer workings?

I am surprised it has been left to me...no wait, I am not so surprised...anyway, I will answer this one, even though it seems very obvious to me.

Lucky, I think that is quite an impossibility. You are saying that an action happened, and there was no reaction from it. Was the Peace Mango working done in a vaccum? No, it wasn't. Therefore, I am going to assume you are actually trying to state that any reaction from the working was insignificant.

I disagree on the insignificance of the working based an a couple of things: One being that the good people of the Temple have done several other workings and created several other servitors which are not having issues or troubles, nor has anyone ever even questioned whether those workings are actually effective, because as you say, "people believe" in them. However, if we just took belief as the sole reason for magick working, then asking for proof from anything magickal (including this working) is a bit like asking people to prove "God's" existance. It can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt so therefore, it must not be true. All very nice and scientific, but lacking in any magickal quality.

Another reason I don't think that the reaction from the working was insignificant, is well ...look at the issues that have been raised because of it. Something happened, we are just not sure that it was the desired effect.

I think it may be a lot easier to just believe nothing happened, then we are all off the hook if there are adverse effects. Although, anything that is positive about the working is lost too, not to mention all that we can learn from it by studying the working. I must admit though, it is quite a powerful way to banish the entirety of the working.

I think we might have a partial explanation as to how this problem has arisen. A lot of the problems around these sort of workings are a result of the difficulty of reaching a consensus of shared beliefs. People with different ideas, explantions, expectations, desires etc - and without meatspace contact to argue the toss in, well, it’s no wonder things get confused.

I certainly agree with this.

What do you believe about it?

I think I am going to answer this when I have more time. I have been taking a step back from this and I almost wanted to just give in to your suggestion that nothing happened, but it just didn't feel right to do so.

If you can narrow that down (write it all down), you could them question each of beliefs in turn and see what evidence you have for each one. And, if anything does remain that makes you feel uncomfortable, then perform some kind of symbolic action to acheive closure much as GL suggests above. I think this might be a better idea than getting another party involved, who's going to bring a whole new load of impressions and intentions to the party.

I also agree with this, but I do wish you would elaborate just a bit as to who you mean by "them". I agree that getting others involved might just be more confusing and messy.
 
 
Ganesh
02:08 / 11.06.05
Apologies if I'm steaming in here with no magic(k)al background and/or respect and/or underpinnings, but...

... it's looking to me, as someone who uses this forum infrequently, that bad shit's been happening in your life, Strix, and you're trying to pin that bad shit on other people, namely Seth.

Again, apologies for being terrrribly magic(k)ally naive, but what evidence do you have that Seth is responsible for anything bad that happens in your life? I'd like to know.

Shoot.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:16 / 11.06.05
I am surprised it has been left to me...no wait, I am not so surprised...

Strix, I'm sorry you still feel that the other people involved in the original working are somehow abandoning you to face some sort of magical fallout on your own, but... well, I still don't see why you belive that this working has a) somehow gone rogue or b) is the source of the problems you and others have been having.

anyway, I will answer this one, even though it seems very obvious to me.


Not to me. In fact, I'm just as perplexed by your reaction as I was when this whole mess blew up again.

I don't see anything in the original "spec" for the ol' Peace Mango that could create this kind of fallout. Actually, I don't think I've ever heard of a servitor causing this kind of havoc (unless maybe it was specifically created to do so, a curse, int fact, which this wasn't.)

If you have some information to the contrary, (something we don't know about the original working perhaps? Right now I couldn't begin to guess) you should share it.

I'd also like to say that as one of the people involved in the original working, I'm very deeply hurt by your accusations of poor practice and laziness. As far as I can make out, you're essentialy accusing everyone else involved in the working of creating some sort of Frankenstein's monster, then leaving you to clean up the mess. By implication, then, you are accusing me of these things.

Even though I only work in a small way--I'm not one of the big guns round here by any means--I still consider myself a serious and responsible magician. By implication, you are denigrating both my skills and my integrity. And that hurts, Strix. It really hurts. I don't mind being called on my shit, I don't mind being told "Look, you fucked up here, and here's why," but you're not doing that. You're making this blanket accusation which you haven't backed up.

I know you're suffering right now. I do. I've tried to be supportive, I've tried to be your friend, but it's hard to be those things when you seem to be dealing with your pain by lashing out at the people around you.
 
 
illmatic
14:10 / 11.06.05
I also agree with this, but I do wish you would elaborate just a bit as to who you mean by "them". I agree that getting others involved might just be more confusing and messy

...eh? Now, I'm confused... where did I say "them"? The reference to other people in my post was in response to T the T's suggestion above re. getting someone else to look at it.

Ah, the internet, amazing for communication, amazing for total misunderstanding.
 
 
illmatic
14:37 / 11.06.05
Was the Peace Mango working done in a vaccum?

I don't know much about the Peace Mango, but apart from the song, did anything happen becuase of it? Maybe also, it didn't do anything at ?

Personally, I think magicians frequently get zero results from their actions and then like to talk it up a if they have had, or manufacture a narrative that explains this .... witness a lot of stuff around the anti-Bush workings. Any excuse other than saying "actually, the magic did not work". I'd include myself (well, at least it's something I've done in the past). This doesn't mean I don't believe in magic, it means I am take a critical of my own and others practice. That's why I think if one is going to use sorcery, you should have definite, clear and specifc intentions, that are unlikely to arise through chance. This is my reason for the dislike of the Transducer/world peace type workings anyway - "world peace", "postive energy" - they are very open signifiers - too vauge for me in terms of outcome.

What I was trying to get at in my posts was isn't it possible that there are other things going on in your life responsible for the bad time you are/were having, rather than a "rouge entity"?
 
 
illmatic
14:48 / 11.06.05
Mostly, though I agree with your comment about stepping back from it. At the moment, as reprsented by this thread, it seems to me a confused muddle of mixed intentions, vauge accusations, misunderstandings and so on.

Deep breaths all round...
 
 
Papess
18:47 / 11.06.05
I don't know why you think my last post was hostile, Liquid. I am just challenging your theory (as you are challenging mine and other theories) that the Transducer had no effect. I am saying that perhaps what you meant was the effect was insignificant because it isn't possible that it had no effect at all, unless it was made in a vaccum.

There are a few basic theories at the moment, one: the Tranducer malfunctioned, two: The Transducer served it's purpose, and now yours, three: The Transducer had little or no effect.

Badha Catha made the initial suggeston that something was wrong, and quite possibly there is. From my point of view it looks like it could be a possibility, I am not entirely proud to say that, but I am more than willing to look into it. Especially, since there has been undue negativity in my life and some other people who were involved in the working whose lives got quite strange, and the climate of the board exploded just after the time of the working, too...These things are not taken as substantial evidence, but they may indicate something went awry. I am more than willing to look into the matter that Badha Catha brought up but I was quite intimidated by accusations that were made about me at the time, to do anything about it then.

This has been a concern for me, but I have not known how to deal with it, especially alone (and bearing the burdening question that I may have somehow done something wrong). If there is something evidence to substantiate Badha Catha's theory, then fine we can do something about it, because leaving it the way it is, is not a good idea if it turns out to be true. If it does turn out to be false then we don't need to be concerned. I am concerned also because there was the accusation that I tampered with Transducer to benefit myself. There is no evidence of this either, however, breeding of that kind of mistrust certainly has an effect on people.

So, just to figure out if something is wrong, what the cause of that is, and how to change it, would be the objective of this thread. If nothing happened then I guess allegations that I tampered with it to benefit myself are unfounded too. Although, a malfunction could happen due to oversight on everyone's part and not due to my allegedly having manipulated the working - which, for the record, I did not.

Of course, that brings me to your theory, Liquid. That nothing happened, I do disagree with it, even if that doesn't clear up the allegations agaist me once and for all. If you can agree that "insignificant" effect might be a better point for the reasons I stated previously, we could discuss that theory and challenge it against the others. We can't exactly throw a pebble out there and not expect a ripple, correct? I just cannot support the theory that nothing happened. Something seems to be happening, IMHO, even if it just may be manifesting itself interpersonally.

To just say nothing happened seems a bit dismissive. I want to investigate the theories and impressions people have about Transducer. If your impression Liquid, is that little or nothing happened, then let's look at that too. Whatever the hypothesis we need to look at it as a possibility.

As I said before, (I think), my concern is that something has malfunctioned and there are unfavourable consequences to that. Especially since there was mention of my tampering with the working, I am doubly concerned.


Again, apologies for being terrrribly magic(k)ally naive, but what evidence do you have that Seth is responsible for anything bad that happens in your life? I'd like to know.

I really have no idea where that comes from, Gypsy. I don't hold Seth responsible for anything that has gone bad in my life. I haven't even mentioned Seth.
 
 
Papess
18:53 / 11.06.05
Sorry Gypsy. When I posted, I had not realised that you removed your post. Or perhaps my eyes are playing tricks on me. If it is gone, I shall remove my response.

It's gone, right?
 
 
Ganesh
10:58 / 12.06.05
I really have no idea where that comes from, Gypsy. I don't hold Seth responsible for anything that has gone bad in my life. I haven't even mentioned Seth.

It comes from me; I posted it. It's based on my reading this thread shortly after reading the other enormous thread in which you posit Seth's responsibility for things that have gone badly in your life. In this thread, you allude to those continuing misfortunes, and mention Seth by name (albeit in a more neutral context) in, I think, your third or fourth post.

I'm aware that things work differently here, but surely the concept of evidence still has some validity, particularly when one is deciding where/whether to apportion blame?
 
 
Papess
15:01 / 12.06.05
Ganesh, pardon me for confusing you with Gypsy, I am not used to seeing your name in the Temple.

Ganesh, I am in NO BLOODY WAY blaming Seth. Where did you get that out of my posts?

What I find interesting is that people have brought these issues (and accusations) to the table and I am just trying to solve them with some help (hopefully) and some concensus. If you are not here to do that, please don't bother posting here.

Ganesh, read my posts again if all you are getting out of this is that I am blaming Seth. I am concerned there is something wrong with TRANSDUCER as was brought to our attention by Badha Catha, who unfortunately never had the gumption to add anything productive to help the situation ze raised.

Maybe this is all about politics, maybe nothing did happen, or maybe is functioned satisfactorily and the reason for criticsizing the Transducer is a personal attack, (especially since there is so much discouragement to change the issues raised). Whatever the case, I want to get to the bottom of it.

Liquid, I have stepped back from this for two years. I really don't think that we/I should do that anymore.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:54 / 12.06.05
I am concerned there is something wrong with TRANSDUCER as was brought to our attention by Badha Catha, who unfortunately never had the gumption to add anything productive to help the situation ze raised.

Well, thank Heaven that nobody's blaming anyone else...

I'm wondering at this point whether it's worth embargoing discussion on this on Barbelith for, like, a week or so, and send anyone who wants to continue discussing it off with a set of questions, which they can answer at their leisure, in a non-interactive, non-discursive environment, and then come back and present findings. Every new thread here seems to descend into tail-chasing pretty quickly...
 
  

Page: (1)23

 
  
Add Your Reply