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What the fuck?!?!?!

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23:23 / 20.05.05

Well, he's already got you posting on a message board about it to complete strangers... So, he's dug some kind of claw in there.

23:24 / 20.05.05

No, but he knows of its existence.

I don't even care anymore to be perfectly honest. Maybe if he reads this, it might wake him up a little.

23:27 / 20.05.05

"Oh, I don't actually care, you know!"

claw

23:29 / 20.05.05

Yes, claws of steel he has.

23:32 / 20.05.05

And talking like yoda he is making you

23:36 / 20.05.05

Do that anyway I would.

23:37 / 20.05.05

I've always been an advocate of the little talk and nice cup of tea myself. Usually sorts these things out, any other tactic is most likely going to drive him out of his head more which I imagine wouldn't be a good thing.

23:43 / 20.05.05

Been there, done that, Poly.

It works for a while, then he starts to come over every night, mooching booze and smoke and acting like we're friends. Then when I tell him that I'm out of booze or smoke, or simply that I just wnat to chill by myself for the evening, or that he can't move back in, I get another "oooh you don't like me, blah,blah,blah" email.

23:45 / 20.05.05

Oh but tell him you don't like him and never want to see him again during the nice tea session, just don't do the avoidance tactic thing. Show some moxy!

00:02 / 21.05.05

Here's an update.

Got a response to my response (which was basically a cut-paste of fridgemagnet's reaction):

oh, ok then miss sane. the point is this...you need to lighten up.

I guess it was all supposed to be a joke or something. A very unfunny, unpleasant joke.

Also, thanks to everybody for listening to my ranting and stuff. You are all very funny and supportive (in spite of being complete strangers)

I think I need to move to a different city, one where the avaiable guys are not manipulative, lazy, overgrown children. Is there such a city?

00:03 / 21.05.05

It works for a while, then he starts to come over every night, mooching booze and smoke and acting like we're friends.

Who lets him in? Who gives him booze and smokes?

It's looking more and more like the problem's you, Liger Null, and your inability to set and maintain firm boundaries...

Cut the cord - if that's what you truly want to do. Do it.

00:07 / 21.05.05

Some people are just far too polite. But, yeah you really have to lay it out and tell him to hit the road.

00:11 / 21.05.05

Very true. Though, in my defense, I've never dealt with this kind of thing before. Most of my friends and even ex-SO's have been very considerate and mature. My mistake, I think, has been expecting the same from someone who has repeatedly shown that he is otherwise.

00:17 / 21.05.05

Word.

Tryphena Absent

00:58 / 21.05.05

Even if you want to be friends with him now is not the time. Cut him off, only see him in situations with mutual friends for the next year or so, after that if you want to be friends you can but until then it's not possible. There's no way I would have responded to that message, he was definitely pissed when he wrote it, just the kind of pissed where manipulating people is a good idea instead of the delirious-I-don't-know-what-I'm-writing wasted. That type of thing's going to be expected with the end of a relationship at some time in everyone's life, your response is the most important thing here. Roll your eyes, get angry but go and do something else. Every response is a sign that manipulation works on you. Do you really want to be the person who can be prodded around like this?

01:08 / 21.05.05

You're absolutely right, Nina. I've realized that all the friendship in the world isn't going to help someone who won't help himself. And the last thing I need right now is to be needlessly frustrated by the actions of others. Thanks.

paranoidwriter waves hello

15:10 / 21.05.05

Sorry Liger Null, but I think posting this thread was misguided, if not plain wrong. Your ex's message was intended for you, and for YOU only; not for us to pick at and criticise (and by the sound of it, I think your ex would be mortified if he found out you'd posted it here). Think about it, we don't know you or your ex well enough to offer any real informed advice; we don't know the history or substance of the roles you both played in the relationship.

I understand that you may have found his message distressing (etc), but surely you have a friend you can discuss this with more privately, someone who knows you both?

I hope this doesn't sound harsh; I just wanted to remind everyone about the importance of privacy.

Good luck and best wishes.

15:20 / 21.05.05

The private part is...we don't know who wrote it.

paranoidwriter waves hello

15:35 / 21.05.05

Yes but HE knows. Imagine if he were to stumble by Barbelith and read this.
I don't know about you, but the private correspondence I send is "private", which means that no-one else is entitled to read it in this way. The internet is VERY public.

I'm not being arsey, I promise. ; )

paranoidwriter waves hello

15:44 / 21.05.05

It may have been wiser to simply start the thread saying "My ex has sent me a long, rambling, personal, and slightly worrying Email. I feel he may be just manipulating me using guilt, but he does mention suicide. What do you think I should do?"

If you'd sent your original post to (say) a newspaper Agony Aunt/Uncle, (s)he would never publish the content of your ex's letter. In this case, what is true of print should be the same in the digital domain. You are the editor/publisher, it is up to you to think of privacy, etc.

Still not arsey. ; )

15:52 / 21.05.05

Everything you post on the internet is in the public domain so if you're going to post on a message board, you can't be too picky about who reads it. But if you post something that someone else has written or said to you privately, without asking them, then you're basically making what they said available to the rest of the world, when in fact it was only meant for you. That's why people sometimes get so shirty about parts of PM's being posted on the board - there was a thread in Policy a while ago about it.

I think the familiarity of the people on message boards makes us all forget how public the conversation we are having actually is, and whilst advice from people who know you is nice, sometimes it would be better done in private.

The person who wrote that letter may never know it is here, if he knows about the board then he may come across it one day. If he wrote it whilst he was drunk, or angry, or trying to pursuade you to do something he may very well feel embarrassed or ashamed about the fact he even sent it to you.

I can see why you wanted to talk about Liger Null, I would too. I just don't think that posting it on the web is very fair, whether its anonymous or otherwise.

Tryphena Absent

17:09 / 21.05.05

Personally if a non-barbelith poster sent me an email like that I probably would put it somewhere on the internet. And I would blame it on the other person because they'd been such a fucking moron. If you email that than you can deal with the consequences of letting your original ill thought out scheme run wild.

I dunno- are my morals askew? If they are I really don't care.

17:09 / 21.05.05

Forgive me, but I think that Liger wanted to try and make sense of that email and thus, needed to state it in hir post.

Also, when someone is harrassing you, I can't fully agree that they deserve the type of respect that comes with "privacy". People shouldn't have to be silent or coy about the way people are abusing them. That is part of enabling it and preventing the recipient of it, a way to seek help.

Tryphena Absent

17:10 / 21.05.05

Of course if the other person throws a fit you can't blame them but those are the consequences of your reaction.

paranoidwriter waves hello

17:28 / 21.05.05

Personally if a non-barbelith poster sent me an email like that I probably would put it somewhere on the internet.

Is Barbelith somehow purer or better than the rest of society; are we an elite? Though your loyalty is commendable, surely we should ALL treat each-other with the same respect.

If you email that than you can deal with the consequences of letting your original ill thought out scheme run wild.

Nina, haven't you ever said/typed something private in an emotional state and regretted it later. If you have/do would you really feel the same way if someone made that public? Do unto others...

It's the difference between starting a letter:

"Dear ------,"

and,

"To whom it may concern,"

Also, when someone is harassing you, I can't fully agree that they deserve the type of respect that comes with "privacy". People shouldn't have to be silent or coy about the way people are abusing them. That is part of enabling it and preventing the recipient of it, a way to seek help.

Strix, point taken (although not completely agreed with).

Liger Null, do feel you being "abused" or "harassed"? Is there a history of such behaviour in your relationship? Or, do you think your Ex is in a bit of a sad state at the moment and wrote an embarrassing Email whilst intoxicated? Has he just made a fool of himself, or is he seriously fucking with your head?

17:52 / 21.05.05

I think there is a world of difference between posting the content of a pm here where we will all know who has written it and posting as Liger Null has done. Liger wanted help dealing with that e-mail offensive from his ex, whom none of us knows, and I think some good posts about observing boundaries and handling fall out from unhappy exes resulted. I can't see that the author of the e-mail quoted has been injured in any way. Other aspects of his behaviour and character have also been described, without demur, that reflect unfavourably

I have indeed written unwise things to former partners. What those ex partners would then choose to do with or say about any of it could and should not be under my control.

paranoidwriter waves hello

19:45 / 21.05.05

I think there is a world of difference between posting the content of a pm here where we will all know who has written it and posting as Liger Null has done.

What if I post some text from a PM here to a different web-forum? What if I Email the said content to another member? Where's the line here?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising Liger Null for reaching out. My point was that one doesn't have to share such intimate details. If I confide in a friend I wouldn't want them to turn round in a social group and discuss the details. Similarly, we are not the only people viewing Barbelith and the Internet.

20:15 / 21.05.05

What if I post some text from a PM here to a different web-forum? What if Email the said content to another member? Where's the line here?

Each situation is a bit different. One has to use their own discretion. How is this effecting you that Liger posted the full content of the email here? Is it effecting anyone here at all adversely? What does it matter to you or anyone if Liger chooses to deal with possible conflict from this in hir own personal life?

If you can't figure out that maybe some other forum has some lithers on it, then possibly you shouldn't post that PM anywhere. You have to have some clue who you are dealing with. Posting it here would be rude, unless it was threatening. In that case, it would be understandable.

And, if you think that no one has ever emailed PM contents to each other here, you are dead wrong. It happens and there is squat anyone can do about it. you can't control people, and you have to let them make their own decisions and use their own discretion. One has to calculate what impact of disclosure. Just because something is written and addressed to one person doesn't entitle the sender to confidentiality. That is absurd and not likely to happen. EVEN IF that email is marked "confidential". Once you send it, the other person can do whatever they want with it. Digital information is never considered to be secure. PERIOD!

Here on Barbelith, we simply have confidentialy as a courtesy that is respected between members. If it is disrespected without due cause, then one will suffer the consequences of that. (Which, may be anything from piss take to banning.) Not that that makes us elite, it is just respect among our peers. Liger's friend is NOT one of our peers.

paranoidwriter waves hello

20:51 / 21.05.05

One has to use their own discretion. How is this effecting you that Liger posted the full content of the email here? Is it effecting anyone here at all adversely? What does it matter to you or anyone if Liger chooses to deal with possible conflict from this in hir own personal life?

I guess, for me it's all about a certain level of trust. Although I'm not perturbed, how this thread affects me is to call into question how much I trust other people on Barbelith, in the digital domain as a whole, and in any other domain where communication exists.

Indeed, if we are saying that the minute anybody communicates something we all have a right to hear/use it, then this is something I'd have to chew over before responding fully.

I understand that artist has limited control over what they 'release'. I also understand that most forms of communication are routinely snooped upon by various different bodies. However, this doesn't mean it's right, or that we shouldn't question it.

Do I really have to question a lover's future integrity when I write them (say) a love letter? If so, then I'll never write one ever again. For what if years after we break up, the lover becomes famous then publishes my letter within an autobiography that sells to millions around the globe? Does it matter that they've blanked my name out? Surely, it only takes a little investigation to "add two and two together".

Also, if I forget to shred my post before putting in the bin, does that mean the dustman or anybody else should be allowed to do whatever they wish with this information?

Not that that makes us elite, it is just respect among our peers. Liger's friend is NOT one of our peers.

Sounds pretty elitist to me. ; )

Having typed all of the above, my intention was not to hijack this thread. Apologies. My point has been made (whether anyone agrees with it or not), so if we wish to discuss this further maybe we should link/start a new thread and give this one back to Liger Null?

I'm off for now, (I've been avoiding a deadline all day) so I'll leave it up to Barbelith.

paranoidwriter waves hello

22:09 / 21.05.05

Sorry if any of the above has annoyed anyone... It was Darren Day... He's ruined my faith in human nature...

22:27 / 21.05.05

Sorry to sit on the fence, but can see both points of view. Liger - your ex sounds in some need of treatment and support but not from you. They seem v manipulative to say the least and are trying to make you feel guilty. Don't! It's not your problem and cutting them out of your life is probably the best thing to do for your and their benefit.

I do, however agree with PW's sentiments re confidentiality. I would've been extremely pissed off if the letter containing "20 reasons why I hate your guts" that I sent to an ex who had confessed to shagging around behind my back 10 years ago had been posted on the web for strangers to see.

Anyway, that's my annual post all done with. Away to waken up a v. pissed Hanabius!

22:28 / 21.05.05

We don't know who this person is. . .well, other than being a Class-A moron. There are so many to choose from, though. . .whoever could it be?!

It's good that you recognised straight off that you were being manipulated. Liger, the next right thing to do is hit the delete key. Unless this person has any of your stuff that you want back, or there's a financial issue that needs to be resolved, add them to your killfile.

As my mate mentioned a wee hour ago, on a different but equally applicable tangent, "Get bloody rid."

And then listen to "Drama" by Erasure and do a little dance of celebration. Preferably while you wave your hands around.

02:20 / 22.05.05

Paranoidwriter-

I think that your point is very valid, and if I had to do it again I would probably have used more discretion. My original intentions were not to embarrass my ex (though a little embarrassment might do him some good, I suppose)

I just wanted some objective third-party feedback about a letter that bothered me. I got a lot of good advice (plus some well-deserved admonishment from Ganesh and yourself), so I don't entirely regret posting it.

That having been said, I think it might be time to let this thread die a dignified death.

12:59 / 22.05.05

I think you should print it out and post it up around town. Sell T-shirts with the letter printed on the front.

13:12 / 22.05.05

Newsletters, merchandise, sky writing, stuffed animals that say "SPECTRUM TBHINKER I AM A SPECTRUM THINKIER" and "....I woulox.ldldldld walk 56000 miles for touyou S-" when you press their distraught little tummies this really is a goldmine when you think about it.

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