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Pop Culture Entity

 
  

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nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:49 / 24.05.05
let's call Barbelith, dress it up in all the appropriate pop cultural trappings, and send it off into the world to achieve unmitigated popularity and unearned accolades.

or earned ones.

ta
pablo
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:03 / 24.05.05
barbielilith sounds good. i love to shop.
 
 
LVX23
19:13 / 24.05.05
Ditto's to trouser, Haus, and GL.

Re: Barbelith... Anyone have a handy summary of points for invocation/workings? All I remember is that it's a placental device designed to birth humanity into the 5D supercontext. Is this what we want to work with?

Again, my requests for an intention to which we might find an appropriate icon.
 
 
Papess
19:29 / 24.05.05
Barbelith? This has already been done. It has it's own thread. It is not "Pop Culture" proper. Ask anyone if they know what Barbelith is. They won't know what the hell you are talking about.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
21:45 / 24.05.05
My requests for an intention to which we might find an appropriate icon.

Second that. Would Commisioner Gordon turn on the Batsignal, draw Batman out, and then say, 'I just kinda felt like calling you up - no real reason. Just wanted to see if you'd come. Uh.. What's up?' (followed immediately by the sound of Batman's foot hitting Gordon's face and Gordon hitting the ground)

Does Gordon call up Batman and say, "Oh, you're pretty cool looking. Can you fight crime?" No, he recognizes his need to smack down crime big time (the intent) and then calls up the best person for the job.

It all starts with intent. Since we all seem to have too much time on our hands, as evident by this thread , I'd recommend something to add in a lil' dashing and seductive to all our lives - James Bond, or someone equally dashing who isn't so 'goal oriented' and one-night-stand-prone. Unless everyone else wants that. Any other pop culture Ideal Lovers floating around? And the first person to say Hitch gets a boot in the grill.

Or, y'know, we could look for someone who effects positive change in the larger culture, a la LVX23's suggestion. That might be a good idea. We could probably use that more than any other time in our history right now.

What else is new. Unfortunately, no one springs to my mind.. Maybe someone representative of a True Wise King? Most every US President in movies I've seen comes across this way, in drastic contrast to our present state.
 
 
Papess
23:15 / 24.05.05
James Bond is a great idea, but here I am watching Dr.Who. Seems like he is a useful and likely icon for Barbelithers.
 
 
Sekhmet
01:39 / 25.05.05
There seems to be a lot of buzz around the good doctor of late...
 
 
illmatic
06:38 / 25.05.05
Taylor: Having seen plenty of Barbelith cat herding on similar threads, as person who started this thread, I'd advise you to be dictatorial - pick someone, and then PM the people who've expressed an interest. Trying to reach a consensus on here is liked trying to juggle with scrambled eggs.

As to whoever suggested the tortue victim - well done, that really was most offensive, asinine suggestion I've seen on here for a long while. Sometimes Barbelith surprises me.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:55 / 25.05.05
I think the idea of formulating an intent and then trying to find a deity to match it, is almost as arse-backwards as just picking a random pop-culture figure for no apparent reason.

Both seem to emerge from the notion that deity is functional, like a servitor, something that you use to fix a problem. I think this idea is at the root of the criticisms that people were making of pop culture magic in the 'post modern magic' thread - but it extends way beyond pop culture stuff. Most magicians, especially of the chaos variety, do seem to relate to their Gods in this sense. Deity is approached from a utilitarian perspective, rather than a 'religious' perspective.

There is a knee jerk fear of religion in occult circles, as if it is somehow for the weak and those who need to be told what to do. Not like us magicians, who are mighty willful souls that bow to nobody and worship nothing but our own mighty willful souls!! I really think this perspective is born more from fear than anything else, fear dressed up as individualism, but fear all the same. A fear of allowing for the possibility of something bigger, more phenomenal and more mysterious than us in the universe. A fear of dealing with something that cannot be bound and contained by the limits and parameters of our imagination.

For me, "worship" means "to give worth to" and "sacrifice" means "to make sacred". I have a blatantly religious approach to deity work. It's all about worshipping a specific aspect of this fantastic, extraordinary, beautiful, terrifying reality that we find ourselves confronted with. Celebrating a part of reality in the form of a God or Goddess. Giving a name to a piece of the universe or an area of human consciousness, and then trying to build a relationship with it. Getting to know it better. Stepping further into its specific territory. Learning more about it. Opening myself up to its influence. Exploring its mysteries.

I think that if you miss this, and approach deity purely on the basis of "what you can get", then your work with said deity will be hugely diminished. I find it really quite shocking how few magicians seem willing to let their deities actually be deities, and seem to want to confine them to either a servitor level of simple functionality; or else treat them as some kind of vague ephemeral archetype that they might think about over lunch from time to time, but never really do anything with...

It's not about subservience. These things are worth celebrating. They are worth bigging up. That's why they are Gods. Love and sex, pleasure and joy, passion and dynamism, life and death, fertility and fecundity, will and desire, renewal and decay. A ritual celebration of one of these aspects of reality, called to as a God or Goddess, affirms a place for it in your world. Opens you up to its influence. Regular service to the Gods develops this further. Contact with the Gods changes us. Transforms us. Makes us more like them. Over time, we become more fertile ground in which their mysteries can flourish. We learn to live more and more within their sphere of influence. They grow to feel an affinity and affection towards us and may bestow their gifts. We begin to have genuine relationships with the Gods, and earn the right to be able to go to them with our problems and day-to-day fears and frustrations. They recognise us, hear our prayers. The divine is alive and active in the world.

I may personally think that this sort of approach is problematic when applied to, say, "Ponch" from CHiPs. But if you feel more comfortable with pop culture deity, then why not think about an aspect of reality that you want to celebrate and build a stronger connection to in your life - and then find a convincing pop culture mask for that principle. Daisy Duke, from the Dukes of Hazzard, for instance.
 
 
Seth
09:54 / 25.05.05
Why not use Barbelith again? A lot of people got a lot out of it last time. The obective is to form a relationship over time, not innovate. Barbelith the entity is going inspire a lot of people on this board for obvious reasons.

I for one would be interested to compare and contrast the two workings...

As far as Barbelith not being pop-culture enough... the Invisibles was written in possibly the trashiest of trash mediums and has been read by thousands. Morrison took every effort at every turn to make the book as Pop as possible. If we're using audience size as the benchmark why not work with John Lennon...?
 
 
---
10:31 / 25.05.05
But if you feel more comfortable with pop culture deity, then why not think about an aspect of reality that you want to celebrate and build a stronger connection to in your life - and then find a convincing pop culture mask for that principle. Daisy Duke, from the Dukes of Hazzard, for instance.

Nice idea!

I had a quick look on the net after the idea of celebrating an aspect of reality lodged itself in my mind and something made me search around. I ended up with Jim Morrison (guitar, partying, confidence, words/lyrics), Jimi Hendrix (guitar, words/lyrics, confidence), William Blake (writing, wisdom), and Sage from The X-Men (martial arts, multi-tasking, memory recall).

Thanks for getting me searching around GL, I'd thought of working with Sage before but for some reason forgot about her. The way you worded that is great, it got me thinking and I was actually having problems, so I started searching. I'm glad I did.

I've had some wierdness going on in the last couple of days with my other working (sorry to be obscure, if it was entirely upto me I'd just explain) so I'm unsure of what I'm doing now, but if something is decided here and it sounds good I might be in for giving this a try aswell.
 
 
---
10:37 / 25.05.05
*raises hand for Barbelith entity*

Infact, I may aswell add that to this list no matter what ends up happening.

*feels like he's going to be really busy all of a sudden*
 
 
Katherine
13:44 / 25.05.05
Barbelith sounds good
 
 
Papess
16:02 / 25.05.05
Seth, you have done Barbelith and what happened? Were the results worthwhile, first off? I really think using Barbelith again is completely redundant. If people want to work with Barbelith they can do so here. I personally don't work with it because I believe it was brought about to thwart the efforts of The Peace Mango and consume the energy that would have been given to the Mango working and other group workings here. Once again, you are suggesting it and it will inevitably do the same thing. It turns attention to itself and we never get to work as a group with anything one else. Let's face it, since that thread was created there has been almost a complete ceasation of group magick workings outside of the Barbelith Egregore.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:12 / 25.05.05
I believe it was brought about to thwart the efforts of The Peace Mango

This sounds interesting and more than a little worrying - what led you to this conclusion, Strix?
 
 
rising and revolving
16:27 / 25.05.05
Honestly, I prefer Yoda. Almost entirely because I actually enjoyed RotS, which was a surprise to me. Also because if you're looking for an entity to chat build relationships with he combines his own personality with an archetypical nature quite nicely. Feels like there's plenty of depth to cover, as well as room for the relationship to blossom - which was the interest initially, yes?

Gandalf is *too* archetypical and not pop enough, IMHO.

And I don't see how intent is relevant to relationship building. That's the intent - to build a relationship. To make friends with the other - what arises from that synthesis is hopefully a beatiful friendship, with its own unique benefits and demands.

Batman and Gordon have a relationship, and that relationship has pretty well defined boundaries. How did they meet in the first place? Where did they gain their common ground? That's the process we're trying to replicate - not flashing the Batsymbol, which is a great way of getting in touch once the relationship is forged.

Hedwig ain't bad, either. Happy to build a relationship w/ Hedwig, except I already have one with a very Hedwiggy type. But that's no big deal.
 
 
Papess
16:45 / 25.05.05
Read the thread I linked to. That thread was started because of issues over the Transducer-Peace Mango's effectiveness. Instead of refining TPM, everyone just started working with Barbelith entity and completely stopped working with Peace Mango, or any other entity for that matter. Other than perhaps Gek, however, people use Gek individually. Any now energy for group work is always funneled into the Barbelith entity and we never work with anyone/thing else.

Not dealing with the TPM and just replacing it with Barbelith wasn't a proper way to deal with the issues people had regarding TPM. Do we really have to replace all present and future workings with the Barbelith entity as well?
 
 
Seth
17:11 / 25.05.05
I answered all your points in that thread too, Strix. I had no idea that you still have misgivings so long after the fact until your posts to this thread. If you'd like me to respond to anything historical then I'd be happy to do it in that thread.

Regarding the relevance of working with Barbelith to this thread, the stated aims of this topic are to work with a pop culture entity over an extended period of time. I know how hard it is to get consensus thought that the idea of building a relationship with Barbelith might be one that a lot of people on here could get behind. Working with Barbelith therefore doesn't prevent the aims behind this thread, it fulfils them.

I won't personally be getting involved whether Barbelith is used or not: my time and energy is placed elsewhere. I merely suggested the idea in the hope that people would find it helpful and potentially of interest. I will carry on reading with interest, however.
 
 
Papess
17:37 / 25.05.05
Seth, perhaps I should PM you. I do have concerns, especially now that some other issues have arisen regarding several people who had worked on Transducer.

Really, I just don't want to see yet another working be consumed by the Barbelith entity. Why not try working with someone/thing else? Why does every group working we do now have to involve the Barbelith entity?

We have some lovely suggestions here: Gandalf, Hedwig, James Bond, Dr.Who, Yoda...(I am loving the Yoda idea!) All these would be very useful for personal evolution, which it seems to be agreed, that is generally the kind of work we will do as a group, rather than try to effect the world and manipulate something we are unsure of. For example, do we really want to send James Bond into private caucaus to create leaks in the press?...wait, that sounds like a great idea....Anyway, the point was made once that messing around with global events and policy might have ill-effcts that we couldn't have calculated.

In response to GL's points about worship and sacrifice, as you mention late in your post, it may not be required by PCM to worship, but there does seem to be a definate requirement for sacrifice, to make the entity we work with sacred. Maybe I have a problem with the word "worship" and I am blocking it. Perhaps I should be looking at "worship" more as an "honouring" of an entity, especially in the case of PCM.
 
 
Seth
18:23 / 25.05.05
Seth, perhaps I should PM you. I do have concerns, especially now that some other issues have arisen regarding several people who had worked on Transducer.

I've got no interest in a private conversation on this. I'm cool with saying everything that I have to say in public, where other people who were involved can read it too.

Really, I just don't want to see yet another working be consumed by the Barbelith entity. Why not try working with someone/thing else? Why does every group working we do now have to involve the Barbelith entity?

What other workings are you talking about? To my knowledge, we did one working with Barbelith, the results of which are on that one thread. Where are the other workings? My response to many of your points is also on that thread, which I've now updated so as not to rot this one.

All these would be very useful for personal evolution, which it seems to be agreed, that is generally the kind of work we will do as a group, rather than try to effect the world and manipulate something we are unsure of.

Why are you talking about changing the world? This thread seems to be about working with a specific pop culture entity over time. My thoughts on trying to change the world with entity work are that it's the wrong tool for the job, so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that here.

Let's agree to stop rotting this thread, regardless.
 
 
LVX23
18:44 / 25.05.05
Some good points, gypsy, though I don't think intention necessarily implies servitude.

Deity is approached from a utilitarian perspective, rather than a 'religious' perspective.

For me it's more about working with particular thoughtforms or constructs moving through the collective imagination (and I'm not suggesting that imagination is false - far the opposite... I believe imagination is the foundation of reality). If my intention is to generate peace and harmony, then I'd pick an icon/construct that is appropriate. But invoking such a construct need not be a binding to servitude. And it shouldn't, as you've noted. For me it's an attempt to lend my energy to the construct so that it may have greater mindshare in the collective. In turn I'd ask it's assistance in informing my own relationship with it and how it interfaces with humanity.

But if you feel more comfortable with pop culture deity, then why not think about an aspect of reality that you want to celebrate and build a stronger connection to in your life - and then find a convincing pop culture mask for that principle.

Yeah, the mask of the construct (pop culture deity) is merely a cultural device - a delivery mechanism - for the archetype it embodies.

For me, "worship" means "to give worth to" and "sacrifice" means "to make sacred".

Absolutely. I firmly believe that magick/mysticism/etc should proceed from devotion. I have expressed my own critiques of "results magick" many times.
 
 
LVX23
18:47 / 25.05.05
Xyu mentioned Jimi Hendrix and it reminded me of this ritual I posted to Key23 a while ago.
 
 
rising and revolving
18:54 / 25.05.05
But if you feel more comfortable with pop culture deity, then why not think about an aspect of reality that you want to celebrate and build a stronger connection to in your life - and then find a convincing pop culture mask for that principle.

Because (for me) I think that misses the point to the questions raised in the other thread. We're not trying to find out if using PCDs as "masks" is effective so much as investigating whether there's any depth to relationships w/ PCDs and how that compares to work with older Gods. At least as I understood it. So I'd rather give the PCD the same respect I give other Gods, which means engaging on its own terms and not treating Thor as simply a "mask" for how awe-inspiring storms are.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:20 / 25.05.05
yoda most definately, he turned into a surreal violent muppet while fighting the emperor, id like to explore yodas violent side in relation to his compassionate, wise nature. as someone else mentioned the sith film was better than i expected. although the choice of actors for anakin and padme, please, the emperor and darth were cool in a nosferatu way, hints of coppolas dracula in there as well....what about the dark side.... it could teach us so much more.... one of my favourite scenes was count duckula losing his head and hands, anakin was such a nice boy in an australian soap opera way.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:22 / 25.05.05
So I'd rather give the PCD the same respect I give other Gods

But surely one of the points that Seth and Gypsy Lantern have made is that if you are going to do this, you will need to choose a "pop culture deity" that has had comparable impact upon your life to that of a God. Now, I don't think this is impossible - there are people the direction of whose whole lives have been changed, and their identities defined, by pop musicians, for example - but it does mean choosing your diety wisely. How much respect does, say, Yoda, really deserve? Has Yoda changed anybody's life? Caused anybody to rethink their entire identity? (NB: anybody who mentions that census gets the 'durr' face.)
 
 
Papess
20:38 / 25.05.05
Why are you talking about changing the world? This thread seems to be about working with a specific pop culture entity over time. My thoughts on trying to change the world with entity work are that it's the wrong tool for the job, so I'm not sure why you're suggesting that here.

I wasn't suggesting that! I was stating that people here in the Magick/Temple had agreed it wasn't a good idea. I was making a suggestion about what we shouldn't do, based on the previous experience of this forum.

I am not rotting this thread. My objection to using Barbelith is entirely pertinent to this thread.
 
 
---
21:10 / 25.05.05
That looks like a good ritual LVX, I remember first reading it and I think it inspired a lot of what I ended up doing when I sent the Sinclair Group a little astral message a while back.
 
 
TaylorEllwood
21:24 / 25.05.05
Barbelith it is...intent...I'm thinking information...Barbelith as an information entity...

LVX23 seems to have thsi pretty well organized and since my summer is booked with travel, we'll tap him as nominal head of this exercise. I'll particpate as time allows. Either him or Seth if lvx23 doesn't want to do it. you alright with that guys?
 
 
TaylorEllwood
21:27 / 25.05.05
oh and sorry for not responding sooner. Life's gotten complicated lately, but I did want to start this thread because of the suggestion in the post modern magick.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:28 / 25.05.05
me and my big mouth, maybe i should start sticking candles in it, la la la la la la la........
 
 
Seth
22:41 / 25.05.05
I was stating that people here in the Magick/Temple had agreed it wasn't a good idea. I was making a suggestion about what we shouldn't do, based on the previous experience of this forum.

That's agreed, and this thread has nothing to do with that anyway. All that's being spoken about here is building a relationship with a pop culture entity, and Barbelith is as good as any.
 
 
Z. deScathach
23:29 / 25.05.05
I really think this perspective is born more from fear than anything else, fear dressed up as individualism, but fear all the same. A fear of allowing for the possibility of something bigger, more phenomenal and more mysterious than us in the universe. A fear of dealing with something that cannot be bound and contained by the limits and parameters of our imagination.

I'm sorry, but I really have grown so tired of hearing this. There IS something bigger, more mysterious, and more phenomenal than our selves. It is called, THE UNIVERSE. And that which is BEYOND the UNIVERSE. The folks of religion seem to not see the universe as really all that mysterious and impressive, so they have to give it a window dressing. Personally, I would prefer to choose the curtains that I put on my window that looks out to THE ALL. I paid for 'em, dammit, and I want the color that I desire.
 
 
Z. deScathach
00:05 / 26.05.05
Oh, btw, this is a thread for people who are intending to work with a pop culture entity as an experiment. It was not, (I'm quite surre of this, having read the absract), an invitation for you to come in and dis everyone here, and proclaim them "fearful" and egotistical. Actually, persons who are not egotistical are able to let others experiment with concepts without attacking them.
 
 
TaylorEllwood
01:55 / 26.05.05
To Clarify, yes this thread is for people who want to work with a pop culture entity, do some in depth workings with it and see what develops, as well as share results...so lets focus on that, instead of philosophical debates which should state in the post modern magick thread...

Now how do you guys want to work with Barbelith...what attributes about Barbelith would be ideal for the formation of an entity.
 
 
Z. deScathach
02:56 / 26.05.05
Hmmmmm, I'm not really sure that everyone does want to work with Barbelith, as there seems to be an effect of that egregore on shutting down group workings? I'm not really aware of the history of it. Still, (damn, I'm out of my element here), it would seem to me that Barbelith represents, (yes, I have read the Invisibles completely), transformation...... specifically from hierarchical structure to anarchical non-structure, i.e., the Supercontext, the free openness of consciousness and the will, both in society and one's relationship to everything and nothing. A tranformational force, or birthing energy, yet having consciousness. Yes, words fail.

I'm willing to bet that there are scholars of the Invisibles mythos who will correct me. I certainly hope that they do, (that is not sarcastic), as I've always had a not easy time of wrapping my head around the concept of Barbelith, as it pertains to that mythos. Of course, how Barbelith has been worked with on this forum does have a bearing. Still, to me, the egregore itself I would bet is bigger than the workings that have been done with it.

One would have to ask if a separate and different egregore has been created for this forum. I sense that it keeps order here, and has certain defensive properties. It is like a linkforce. Of course, I could be full of shit.......

I guess the real question that we should ask is: Do we wish to work with the Barbelith of the Invisibles mythos, or the Barbelith as egregore of the forum?
 
  

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