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The Wire

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Mysterious Transfer Student

20:30 / 26.05.07

SPOILER for season four - Shiny Things and others may want to turn away and discuss something else:

... Omar's been arrested for the first time ever that we know of, framed by Marlo; in a holding room at a detention centre, alone with three hundred West Baltimore gangbangers yards away all quite openly baying for his blood. He's about to lose his shit, scared as we've never seen him before... two guys enter his room, producing weapons... he puts up his fists, psyching himself up... then one turns his blade handle up and says, "Butchie sent us."

Watching at that moment I felt every bit of the relief experienced by Omar, and realised that I had been fully and genuinely on the edge of my seat. Yes, one of The Wire's most minor achievements, to make you passionately care about, sympathise with and cheer on a predatory violent criminal.

This show is heroic TV.

End spoiler.

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

21:06 / 26.05.07

On McNulty, partially connected to his vanity and his other flaws, I’ve just had a thought. I reckon a big part of what makes him so interesting is that on some level he really thinks of himself like he’s the one good cop in a shitty department, like the hero out of a crappy cop movie, when actually it’s just that he kinda looks that way next to some of the other really crappy cops he works with. I could be way off base, but I think that theory holds a lot of water with regards to the ways in which he screws up, and the ways he which he genuinely does do well on occasion.

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

06:35 / 27.05.07

Just a note that I haven't read Transfer's post for obvious reasons - so apologies if anything I say is repeating or obviously wrong in light of whatever that post contains.

Anyway I think Flyboy has already pointed us in the direction of why Omar can be seen as weirdly free with this;

Omar never pulled a gun on a working man, somebody who wasn't in the game. And he didn't start stacking up bodies in a serious way until they did for his boy Brandon. Because they didn't have to do Brandon like that, you know?

You see Omar does follow rules - probably stricter rules than most of the other characters, but those rules are his - not those imposed by the world he lives in - and the while the world obviously formed who he is and how chose what rules to follow it hasn't yet made him break them. And really how does anyone get any freer than being able to follow their own rules?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:39 / 27.05.07

(Disclaimer on all my posts until further notice: I've only seen the first three seasons.)

Um, I actually think it's kind of crazy to think of Omar as being "free" - he's certainly not the most free character in the show. I think it's missing the point of The Wire a little to pay so much attention to the parallels between, say, the city hall and the streets in terms of how they operate that you miss the huge whacking great differences in terms of quality of life and the options available that people have who we see in one or another. You think Omar wouldn't trade what he does for being, I dunno, a political campaign strategist being paid to talk clever bullshit in meetings, if he could go back and start again from a different place?

In other words, don't romanticise Omar's lifestyle as some kind of free spirit, wherever the wind takes him, Leonardo-in-Titanic shit, no never do that. The guy lives on the run, and spends half that time hiding out in derelict squats, living out of a van or crashing with some drug addicts who owe him one. And he is singularly unable to change his profession, for whatever reasons. He's not held down by an addiction like Bubbs, and he doesn't officially or obviously work within the confines of an institution - however Omar himself knows and tells us that he operates within rather than outside the game. He makes this explicit when testifying in season 2, telling Levy that he's "just like you, man. Y'all got the briefcase; I got the shotgun."

Come to think of it, throughout seasons 1-3 he does spend most of his time trapped by his desire for vengeance, which you can easily imagine becoming a self-perpetuating circle - after all, being Omar's boyfriend is clearly an extremely hazardous lifestyle.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:47 / 27.05.07

More - clearly Omar is a character who is romanticised, on the street, and is a character who the show and the show's viewers love. Man, how can you not idolise a guy who gets people to scatter when they see him on the street, shouting "Omar coming!", but charms every 'citizen' he meets? At the same time, The Wire is a smart and tough (on its characters, I mean) enough show to interrogate the issue of Omar's fame/infamy and whether it's really a good idea for kids to be looking up to him as some kind of Robin Hood hero figure. The answer is that no, it really isn't, and Bunk gets to articulate this very clearly in season 3.

In terms of sympathy, I think it's really interesting and telling that the most violent thing we ever see him do, kneecapping a minor Barksdale crew member for not telling him "where it at" when he sticks up the stashhouse in the Pit, is in virtually his first appearance - The Wire is a lot less guilty of toning down the vices of its charismatic but dangerous characters than some shows, but I do think it's good to try and remember that moment, just like Kima beating on Bodie.

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

10:54 / 27.05.07

And just like Prez partially blinding that kid. He goes on to do a lot of good, but you can't forget that. He's not redeemed, he's still the same guy. That's what I love about the Wire.

Ah, I can't say anything without getting really spoilery.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:02 / 27.05.07

Man, I'd love to ringfence this thread as being a season 1-3 one and get into some serious (po-lease) work about that shit.

McNulty for instance is probably the closest thing to a traditional cop show hero - in that he realy does seem to give shit, but even he has awful moments of sexism, homophobia

Am I having a total brain failure - when does McNulty ever have a moment of homophobia?

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

11:07 / 27.05.07

Hmmm, very little disagreement from me on the Kima point. From my point of view it’s interesting how perhaps I seem to hold the police to a different standard – Kima’s beating down of Bodie has pretty much defined my perception of her throughout the show, where as I barely thinking about Omar’s kneecapping, despite it being even more extreme. And perhaps that double standard is a mistake with the Wire.

With regards to Omar – I don’t disagree with anything you’ve just said – it’s quite right not to romanticise him. His life is a shit as anybody else and shitter than that of many. That said I think I’m sort of groping towards something about why I still think he seems freer to me even thought perhaps he really isn’t. Apologies if this is a little garbled or nonsensical since as I say I’m groping towards it – but what I’m thinking is that it has something to do with the interactions between how people are defined by, and in turn contribute towards defining their environment. Omar certainly is not free in that he is very much a product of the system - in some ways perhaps more intensely so than many of the other characters. The world made Omar the way he is – he sure as hell had no choice about that – and if he did he sure as shit woulda chosen something else. But that said as a product of the system, he’s if not exactly free per se then certainly a hell of a lot less restrained than many of the characters – Omar’s a creation of the system and as such not really free – but he’s in a situation whereby he can act as the man the system has made him in a manner far less restrained manner than most.

Which I guess, conversely to what I said yesterday might actually make him the least free character in the show in some ways, but it’s still a fascinating thing to ponder.

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

11:11 / 27.05.07

Am I having a total brain failure - when does McNulty ever have a moment of homophobia?

Hmmmm, I kind of think he made a couple of comments back the first season, probably more along the lines of laddish locker room comments than hardcore hate, but I can't remember the specific incidence of it, so unless someone else can remember a specific incident I'm happy to retract and assume I'm mis-attributing some attitudes I saw from other characters around him to McNulty.

By the way with regards to seasons I think this used to be the Season 1 & 2 thread - since there's another banging around for 3 & 4 somewhere - which obviously I've not read.

11:13 / 27.05.07

So pleased you came to this thread, Shiny. This board has been due some Wire talk for far too long.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:20 / 27.05.07

McNulty for instance is probably the closest thing to a traditional cop show hero - in that he realy does seem to give shit, but even he has awful moments of sexism, homophobia, and the like - despite being relatively a good guy in terms of the world of the Wire he's probably still someone most of us would go to great lengths to avoid meeting in real life. And he's one of the best of them.

So I think there may be some standard Barbelith assumptions being made here about who "most of us" are, what we do for a living, where we come from, and who we'd choose to hang out with. But even leaving that aside, personally I can drink with Jimmy McNulty any time I like, even when I drink alone. By which I mean to say that I hugely recognise him, his self-destructive and self-righteous streaks, his stubborn bloody-mindedness - and I think that, even though it often shows us people doing things we cannot imagine doing, one of the things that makes The Wire great is that just as often, it shows us people being governed by very recognisable personality traits that we share. And the ambiguities of the show are our own - how often have you not known whether you did the right thing because it was the right thing, or because you wanted to piss off your boss or score points? Jimmy doesn't know either.

In terms of how McNulty compares to other TV cop show "heroes", I think the point is not that he is necessarily more flawed or less likeable, but that he is not the focus of the show - this becomes even more true from season 2 onwards. If you're looking for a borderline flawless motherfucker to look up to, both as a police and a guy who's got his life sorted, Lester Freamon is yr man. He's one of many characters in this show I'd go to great lengths to meet in real life.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:49 / 27.05.07

I have loads more to say, but - how would people feel about starting new, fresh, official THE WIRE season-by-season rewatch threads? With no spoilers beyond that current season in each?

12:57 / 27.05.07

It'd be tough for me as I've lent my copy of Season 1 to a mate. Too much potential for me to get all accidentally spoilery

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

12:58 / 27.05.07

Sounds ideal. If any shows worth a thread per season it's gotta be this one, and the current set up with two threads per season, but one of those threads not properly labelled is far from perfect.

13:04 / 27.05.07

Before we do anything, though, perhaps we should start beating those who haven't watched this round the head? Yeah? Good idea?

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

13:08 / 27.05.07

Sounds good. Keeping a Wire thread of two near the top of the section seems like quite an effecient way of doing that to me. I know I pick up ideas for shows I might fancy from Barbelith, and I'm surely not the only one.

13:45 / 27.05.07

So, does that mean that this should become the The Wire: TOTAL SPOILERS thread?

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:23 / 27.05.07

Yeah, it's already got a season 4 one in there, so...

Boboss, I'm not talking episode by episode, so I guess not a rewatch per se, just one thread per season forever and in perpetuity - does that make sense?

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

15:12 / 31.05.07

Hmmmm - any more thoughts on how we proceed with this? I've got some more I'd like to say, but I'd like us to sort out how we're going to format the converstion first. If we're going with separate threads I'm happy to start one or two of them at the weekend when I've got time write a proper opening thread if no-one else wants to puts dibs on doing it.

11:17 / 13.07.07

According to AICN

“The Wire” returns the first quarter of 2008.

Wanted more this year, but am glad to see the next season is definitely a goer.

19:52 / 13.07.07

After hearing so much about this show, I watched seasons 1-4 a month or so ago. This is one of my intensely interesting and beautiful shows that it hurts. I lost a great deal of sleep sprinting through seasons 3 and 4 that I started nodding off at the office.

19:11 / 14.07.07

I work at the postproduction place where they're editing the show. They've shot through episode seven at least, I was helping them with the sound for that yesterday, and at least a couple of episodes are finished. So, it'll be probably all be done well before 2008, but I guess HBO's going to hold the episodes until it fits into their schedule.

21:38 / 14.07.07

I can´t wait for the return of The Bunk! This series is so much fun, I once watched ca eight episodes in a row. But I heard, it´s going to be the last season.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

23:32 / 17.07.07

Keeping eyes closed because there were some spoiler warnings above -- I have just finished Season 3, but does this thread have S4 spoilers? I would be REALLY into a season-by-season discussion. What a great program.

16:39 / 21.07.07

I managed to watch the four seasons the last four weekends.

Holyfuckingmotherofgod!, this show is unbelievable...

11:14 / 22.07.07

Yes, this thread contains spoilers for seasons 1-4

16:38 / 25.07.07

The shooting wrapped up in late May or early June; HBO had an event in June in Columbia where they auctioned off some of the more memorable of the, erm, memorabilia. Sadly, I didn't find out until a couple of weeks late.

The one thing I'd recommend to anybody who hasn't seen/read it already is Breaking down The Wire. - By Steve James and Alex Kotlowitz - Slate Magazine, which is a pretty good dialog covering a lot of the major points of Season 4, and why the Wire is the greatest thing ever.

I'm not sure where to start talking about any of this, but one thing that's always stuck in my mind since Season 3 is the shot of Rawls in the gay bar when Lamar goes in to find Omar. Why it sticks out is that it's pretty much the only purely wasted moment in the show, which is saying a lot for a show after 4 seasons. But still, it's there, and Rawls may be the only character left who still has some conflict regarding his homosexuality--Omar brings women into his crew as well, so there's no reason what happened to Brandon wouldn't have happened to Kimmy instead, and Kima's personal life is basically McNulty's, or any other cop stereotype: married to the job, young wife and unhappiness at home.

I really don't want to make this nitpicky, and not least because I think the show's such a vivid and effective piece of social activism. But it's hard to speak about the specific positives without getting very spoilery. Are there going to be new threads?

16:43 / 25.07.07

Actually, this is pretty unbelievably squee and spoiler-free:

09:26 / 28.07.07

For people in the UK only:

Watch a documentary and an episode of the wire for free here.

20:28 / 29.07.07

Oooooh - thank you very much for that link stoatie...

07:13 / 30.07.07

Oooooh - thank you very much for that link stoatie...

No, sleaze, it´s me, Mistoffelees!

And to stay on topic; here´s an interview with the wire´s writers, where they drop hints about the next and final season.

edit: after having read the interview, I gather, there´s not much about the next season. On wiki the link description said "A breakdown of the Q&A with hints about the fifth season.".

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

09:05 / 30.07.07

Here's something I've been wondering.

Does this show exist almost exclusively in the premise of men? I know of very few women who like or care about it. The program in that link only serves to heighten this feeling - I don't think there was a single female voice in the entire thing, was there? All the voices praising the show were male.

I'm just curious. But it's appeal seems to be dominated by men, and quite simply - I'd like to hear some female opinions on the show. Are they just not interested? Because if that's the case I find it odd because... well, nobody is interested at first, are they? I certainly wasn't.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:43 / 30.07.07

It's an interesting question. Patriarchy skews things at every level. So on the one hand the whole idea of The Wire as a serious, dense, intellectually challenging and rewarding show is almost inevitably going to be presented in a very male-heavy, male-friendly, male-smelling way. Even though it's hard to think of many female commentators whose opinions on the show I wouldn't prefer to hear rather than those of Nick Hornby.

On another level, the society and the institutions which The Wire depicts are themselves patriarchal. So arguably the realism the show aspires to necessitates significant chunks of the narrative being set in environments that are very male dominated, both in terms of a scarcity of female characters and a locker room feel.

And then on another level I don't believe The Wire is perfect, much as I love it - so I certainly don't believe that it and the process of its creation are untainted by patriarchal biases. There's no doubt that the vast majority of the characters who get really, brilliantly examined and explored in the show are male. The only woman who really gets comparable screen time and exploration is Kima. Maybe Ronnie.

There are other great female characters, yes: Brianna, Beadie, Shardene, the two girls in Omar's second crew... But there's also a higher proportion of very sketchy, one-note female characters, whose portrayal has a nasty misogynistic tinge: I'm thinking of Donette, and McNulty's estranged wife in season 1 (she gets some slightly more balanced treatment as things go on, but arguably not enough), and Marla Daniels, and even Cheryll. These are all wifes or partners of people in the game or the job, who fundamentally don't understand what it's like for those main characters, and they are universally presented as nagging, and usually inappropriately emotional. The political campaign strategist in season 3 is also arguably an example of women getting a rough deal on the show...

A female friend has just started watching season 1, and I'll be interested to see to what extent she's enthused, and whether any of the above is reflected in her response to the show.

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

12:28 / 30.07.07

Yeah, it's strange. Because while I was wondering about the characters and the necessity for so much male domination - it feels like something removed from that.

Because you have to be involved with the show to know that, so is there something inherent in the show which just doesn't appeal to women - and continues to be this way even when it's talked up? Because I certainly know I wasn't originally interested.

Like you say, The Wire is by no means a perfect show - there's still too many things wrong with it for that - evil jew lawyer, the few times the writers lets you feel their guiding hand in exposition (although that was mostly very early on) and the short handing of a lot of female characters. And how the female characters it goes in to the most depth with are still quite masculine even so far as becoming a female version of McNulty under his tutelage (although the nature of the show perhaps demands this in part too) - but at the same time I don't think I'd ever hesitate in naming it as the best thing on television. And I like a lot of television.

I'm interested to see how it goes with your female friend! I have tried this, and witnessed people who just fall asleep, and also heard similar tales of such. And that's another thing - I think you need at least half of the first series to really get going and see all these threads start coming together. It's hard work, in it's own way. But then, that's what The Wire is all about.

And as I said to somebody once before - it's hard to get away from Nick Hornby, isn't it? But I guess we can't stop him from liking good things.

17:38 / 30.07.07

The fact that Bobossbo, Runce's gf, and a bunch of Bobosso's female colleagues like the Wire lots and lots suggests to me that it can and does appeal to women, although, like me, all of them took a while to get into it.

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