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Underground > Temple >

The Sight of Blood

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00:28 / 10.08.06

That doesn't mean I can't see the magical use of pain, but I understand it not as sacrifice (though I'm familiar with the concept, I try to differentiate between offerrings given with love and sacred intent vs. giving up something I need, or otherwise harming myself to elevate another."Sacrifice" literally refers to the process of making something Sacred. I don't think harm is a natural implication, I think that's a perversion.

Yes I know a lot of folks find it perverse. It's important to remember a lot of folks don't though and that it is a personal perception either way. We're engaged in constructive dialogue I'm invested in so I'd like to point out the use of caution when using highly charged value labels.

I like this definition:
Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim.

I value the comfort of my body pretty highly and giving it up has meaning for me though I undertsand this is strange for many people.

See, there's where I wince - to me, sufferring is a sign that I've failed to lay a proper boundary to take care of myself, which is my responsibility.

For me my responsibility is to use suffering with intent which is connected and appropriate. Fasting can be viewed as a form of suffering though it is one I suspect we can all agree has its place.

There's endorphines and altered states and then there's the holy hell of endurance. Maybe it's when you can't stand someone but you suck it up and help them with a task because you know it is the right thing to do. Maybe it's being sleep deprived because your mate is ill. Maybe it's building a temple out of garden rock in one day because you've been told it is needed ASAP. Maybe it is offering up the pain of your body to an angry ghost so it can have a sense of justice and recognition.

The ethical problems are in the abuse of masochistic and guilt derived urges not automatically in certain actions which may involve pain.

12:12 / 10.08.06

I can understand this as well, though I tend to prefer other offerrings of self more. I admit, though, I would sooner do bloodletting than cut off my hair.

On a friendly side note, sometimes when you have something you value a lot and call a line on it Deities can and often do request it as sacrifice. This isn't motivated by some Big Meanie impulse but to show us that we can survive without it or something about our relationship to the thing.

A spirit worker I respect a great deal always had body image issues as a child and his one favorite feature was his very long beautiful hair. When under going a fairly epic ritual Ordeal he was directed to chop all of his hair off. While to some extent he was being asked to hand over his most precious self possesion he was also being freed to perceive other parts of himself as beautiful.

18:13 / 10.08.06

Well, I currently have some reason to believe that at least one of the powers I work with specifically wants my hair long.

But there's a certain degree to which I treat my hair as a boundary between myself and the demands of others. I started out growing up not being allowed to grow out my hair. When my Mom finally allowed it, I grew out my hair and have jealously guarded it ever since. Others have demanded or suggested I cut it (I used to do theatre, where I was expected to change my hair to suit the director's whim. My unwillingness is why I never got further into theatre!).

I know if I did have to cut it all off it would just grow back in a few years, but it would be incredibly traumatic, and I would be very, very angry and feel very betrayed by any power that demanded it in such a way that I could not deny it. My hair is MINE.

But you may be correct, since control and identity issues are something that are becomming progressively more and more significant in my work lately.

--Ember--

18:17 / 10.08.06

I don't think harm is a natural implication, I think that's a perversion.

I'd like to point out the use of caution when using highly charged value labels.

I appologize. I intended it to be clear that I own my own assumptions - that's why I said "I think".

The ethical problems are in the abuse of masochistic and guilt derived urges not automatically in certain actions which may involve pain.

That makes sense. Well, all of what you say makes sense, it's just not how I view things. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

--Ember--

19:11 / 10.08.06

It's cool I know we're both up for sharing info not wheeling out judgements. Blood and pain are uneasy subjects but we need to keep in mind they are holy tools to some folks.

That said sometimes the challenge is about finding other words that have more flexibilty. Saying one finds something 'problematic' or 'unappealing' reads as less of a dismissal than 'perversion'. So to we might want to explore the use of 'I think' versus 'I feel' as one invites intellectual challenge and the other more of respectful exchange around subjective experience.

I was contemplating the idea of questing as a difficult spiritual task. I've been talking to a few folks about how I use physical body work to trigger other senses and how it helps navigating a complex issue.

I know I'm getting off topic here so anyone can yell at me to take it elsewhere. I am using emotional responses to understand a Mystery. Using blood and pain rituals strips me down to a level where these responses register almost as dowsing indicators of direction.

19:19 / 10.08.06

I know if I did have to cut it all off it would just grow back in a few years, but it would be incredibly traumatic, and I would be very, very angry and feel very betrayed by any power that demanded it in such a way that I could not deny it. My hair is MINE.

But you may be correct, since control and identity issues are something that are becomming progressively more and more significant in my work lately.

I can only comment that part of my faith is knowing that if They demand something from me 1) I need to let go of it 2) if They really want me to let go of it, it will go by some other hand than mine if I get stubborn about it. Which usually sucks epically and makes perfect sense in hindsight.

There maybe a moment inspired by love when you are so moved as to offer up that which is most precious to you and does not harm another in the giving. Might never happen but now you have an option to think about when/if it ever arrives.

19:50 / 10.08.06

Using blood and pain rituals strips me down to a level where these responses register almost as dowsing indicators of direction.

There's an interesting issue here: the role and effect of intensely physical magical work -- especially work that involves pain or fight/flight/sex responses.

I can see how such work could be intensely effective by cutting (sometimes literally) through purely verbal and intellectual levels of thought to evoke primal effects and responses. At the same time, I don't really know a damned thing about it.

xk, do you want to start that Ordeal topic?

19:54 / 10.08.06

yeah it will keep me from rotting up this one so much. I'll ponder the basics and then kick one off.

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