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The Sight of Blood

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
13:11 / 27.10.05
Oh, I see now. I didn't see your previous post on that upthread, and the "yet" did worry me a little! Bad, bad idea! But I think quite an easy mistake to make if you're approaching the Lwa on your own and without the benefits and support structure of a House or Godparent to show you the specifics. You end up having to learn from your mistakes, and certain mistakes could end up being a lot more trouble than the "I called the quarters in the wrong order and felt a bit dizzy afterwards" variety.

Other cultures and other traditions of magic seem to handle the matter of blood quite differently. It can be easy to get confused and unwittingly breach etiquette by trying to import a set of blood associations from one culture onto that of another. Dangers of cultural appropriation again, perhaps? The Norse, for instance, seem to call for more of that sort of thing from their followers - but it comes across as more in the tradition of blood oaths and blood as an empowering substance. As far as I can tell, there wasn't such a tradition of blood sacrifice in the Northern trad, as in blood offerings as food. The blood Odin calls for is not necessarily to "feed" Him, but more with a warrior attitude, the blood oath, becoming a blood brother, empowering the runes with your blood. Perhaps an Asatru scholar can elaborate or correct me on that?
 
 
Sekhmet
13:22 / 27.10.05
I'm not in any sense an Asatru scholar, but I'm in agreement with that... Blood is traditionally used for staining carved runes, and blood oaths do feature in the Lore. On the few occasions that I've actually offered blood to the Aesir/Odin, it's been more in the sense of sealing a bond than "feeding". That's what the booze is for.
 
 
Chiropteran
13:23 / 27.10.05
it's like something unlocks.

I know this is a thread on blood, not tobacco, but yes, that's exactly what it feels like. Tobacco is a powerful plant, and there are many spiritual traditions that use it (I'm only just scratching the surface here). As an avowed non-smoker, I've largely ignored it in the past, but there is fertile ground to explore.
 
 
SteppersFan
13:43 / 27.10.05
Done lots of blood related stuff, at least 23 times.

Never done it to / for spirits and don't want to. More something for /MY/ spirit.

Not particularly proud of the scars (and I am uncomfortable with the potential associations with self-harm) but I like to be able to find them when I need them. They are neat and modest and hard to spot if you don't know they are there. Some other people involved at the time have somewhat larger scars, a practice I never felt interested in.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:53 / 27.10.05
The Norse, for instance, seem to call for more of that sort of thing from their followers - but it comes across as more in the tradition of blood oaths and blood as an empowering substance.

Yeah, not really very scholarly here either, but that's the way it looks from what I've read, and how it feels. You're using it to lend your own personal energy to an item, in the case of the runes; "bringing them to life" as it were. Thre's also the issue of setting up a sympathetic link between you and the item. (You're also demonstrating a willingness to put up with injury, which, even though it's likely to be a very very small injury in controlled circumstances, seems to go down well.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:23 / 28.10.05
As an avowed non-smoker, I've largely ignored it [tobacco] in the past

Yeah, me too. I'm also a lifelong non-smoker. I'd never used the weed in ritual before. I associated it with non-European magicoreligious practices which I didn't (still don't, really) understand well, which led me to eschew its use as smacking of cultural appropriation.

All of which makes it rather irksome to deal with, but I have to admit it's been very useful. It's especially good for allowing voice-work, the 'play-acting' technique I mentioned elsewhere. Perhaps it's more powerful if one doesn't use it recreationally, but only in a sacred setting?

Back on the body-fluid kick: Suddenly remembered this page, which makes reference to a ritual the site owner refers to as "the Crogan" which involved mixing one's own blood into a drink, dedicating the drink to Odin, then swallowing it. The fact that it's drunk by the person practicing the rite is interesting (if a bit gross), because this means that you're clearly not offering it up to the God. My reading (and this is very tentative, pinch of salt ect) is that the blood is symbolic of some componant of Odin's nature: specifically, battle. I've come across various kennings for weapons and fighting that refer to blood, which makes me imagine that the blood in this instance is being used to represent war, strife. Thus, the man practicing the ritual is seeking union with that in Odin which is battle itself.
 
 
Sekhmet
12:08 / 28.10.05
Perhaps it's more powerful if one doesn't use it recreationally, but only in a sacred setting?

Arguably, isn't that true of all entheogens?
 
 
SteppersFan
18:31 / 29.10.05
//Perhaps it's more powerful if one doesn't use it recreationally, but only in a sacred setting?//
I don't think you can use tobacco recreationally.

It's a fucking horrible mega addictive drug that totally fucks you up. If you think you're using it recreationally, you're conning yourself (or being conned by the malevolent evil spirits that I suspect infest tobacco).

And I think that if you're not a native american living on a reservation who knows all about the different kinds of tobacco that are out there and just WHICH one you need for a which particular magical purpose then fucking leave it alone.

[Note: I am trying to quit right now and I have zero tolerance for tobacco advocation right now ]

paul.meme
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:05 / 29.10.05
Well excuse me all to hell and back, but like I said above--this whole cigarette thing wasn't my idea! I'm an asthmatic nonsmoker. I'd love to leave tobacco offerings fucking alone; it's just not really an option.

When I think of offerings, I usually think of things I like, and offer those. I use tobacco with certain specific spirits, and then only when it's requested that I do so. There's usually room for some negotiation (like being allowed to take a token drag of the cigarette and then burn the rest in with the loose incence) but when they really want something, it's often a bad idea to kick up too much of a fuss about giving it to them...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:04 / 31.10.05
I'm a non-smoker, used to get through 20+ marlboro reds a day, but haven't smoked tobacco in non-ritual circumstances for more than 8 years. The Gods and Spirits I work with like tobacco, they like cigars, so I handle cigars on a weekly basis. Generally I'll take three smokes on something without inhaling and blow the smoke towards the altar, leaving the rest to burn of its own accord in the ashtray. This is the relationship I now have with the tobacco spirits. It works. The idea of smoking in non-ritual circumstances is abhorent, I can't imagine ever smoking without there being magic involved.
 
 
Katherine
08:22 / 31.10.05
When I think of offerings, I usually think of things I like, and offer those.

Same here although have offered cigar once and then found I had to smoke it (I'm a non-smoker). Didn't even try the bargaining, I will bear in mind the mixing it with incense thing though, it sounds a much better prospect than smoking the whole thing.
 
 
SteppersFan
08:49 / 31.10.05
Right now I have a very powerful sense that tobacco contains really seriously evil malevolent spirits that are utterly hostile to human life. FWIW there's a bit of magic work behind that sense too.

Mordant, Gypsy, thanks for your helpful responses. Do you get the feeling that the spirits you're dealing with are "in" the tobacco? (I do.) In which case, do you feel they are malevolent or helpful? Or do they simply "consume" the tobacco (without caring about the putative evil spirits therein)?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:17 / 31.10.05
I don't know about spirits in the tobacco. I guess I was a bit off using the word spirit (still got issues with the whole gods thing) when what I actually meant was deities. One particular deity demands cheap cigarettes and gets very emotional if he doesn't get one. If I do smoke during a service to him, I find the contact is much stronger--heavy overshadowing, lots of physical and emotional effects--and also more positive, 'friendlier', sort of. Some of my ancestors were heavy smokers in life, so tobacco is a good offering for them too. They don't require me to smoke, however.

I make the occaasional offering to Ellegua; I wouldn't say I work with him, strictly speaking, but he taps me for offerings now and again. He likes rum, sweeties and cigars, of course.

The animist in me asks: Maybe the "evil spirits" you sense infesting tobacco are associated with the additives used by the tobacco industry, rather than the tobacco itself? Artificial flavourings, preservatives, crap to make the damn things more addictive... who knows what could ride in on all that muck.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:10 / 31.10.05
My take on it is that all herbs and suchlike are best considered spirits with their own distinct personality, nature and powers. Tobacco is a very strong spirit, in the same way that High John the Conqueror Root or Five Finger Grass are strong spirits. The power of tobacco can be tapped and called upon in magic - and if you're doing that, you should really be using fresh tobacco leaves and know exactly what you are doing, like the hypothetical native American on a reservation you talk about above.

I'd speculate that Tobacco that has been processed, refined, treated, and packaged as part of the tobacco industry is more problematic a beast to work with. I was having an interesting conversation with Money$hot about this the other day - how powerful spirits such as tobacco, coffee, sugar, etc... are packaged into recreational snacks. We consume them through the day without batting an eyelid - when their nature is that of spirits that we should approach with some respect and trepidation. So perhaps when dealing with the spirits of a packet of benson & hedges, we're tapping into a weird, malformed, twisted up demonic aspect of a really powerful spirit. I don't think they are necessarily "evil" - they might be manipulative and destructive in their nature, they might be toxic to humanity, they might even have a problem with humans because of what it is we do with them and what it is we do on the planet - but I'm not sure it's profitable or accurate in the broader sense to consider a plant as "evil". All speculative, of course.

However, in my own practice, I don't really work with the tobacco spirits in the sense outlined above - or at least I haven't had reason to so far. I use tobacco as an offering to the Deities I work with who happen to like tobacco as an offering. The tobacco spirits are made sacred and consumed. I'm only entering a relationship with the tobacco spirits as much as I'm entering into a relationship with the bowl of spicy jambalaya I might also offer. That is to say, a communication is going on, but it's of a different and more expansive nature directed towards deity.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:53 / 31.10.05
I've found that once you start using a substance in this way--as an offering, as a connection to a deity or a spirit--you gradually come to feel different about it. Coffee's a good example: the consumption of coffee isn't just a recreational thing for me anymore. Even when I'm just having a cafe con leche at the bar down the road, there's a creeping element of communion. I'm not just having a cuppa anymore, I'm also giving a nod to a god.

I wonder if the same thing won't eventually happen with sweeties and alcohol. Be interesting to see how that side of things develops over time.
 
 
SteppersFan
13:20 / 31.10.05
OK, good stuff. (Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread BTW, which was I thought interesting itself... err, any mods wanna do a split to "Substances and Spirits" or something?)

Yes, the impurities and admixtures in tobacco might be what makes it "evil" in my terms.

And, if tobacco is "manipulative" + destructive + toxic + "have a problem with humans" then, well tobacco = absolutely, definitively "evil" as far as me and my lungs and heart are concerned!

(I am deliberately not being PC or relativist about this -- uncharacteristically for me, tobacco is *absolutely* black and white and manichaean: it's totally fucking evil, get-away-from-me bad stuff that WILL KILL ME and which for all I know ALREADY HAS KILLED ME. It killed my dad after all...)

And yes, I powerfully get a feeling that there is a spirit in the [processed, mixed] substance [including that Indian Reservation stuff Will Self plugs] that is inimical to human life. [I actually get a vibe of it being some sort of Burroughsian Amerindian curse but that could be mediated cobblers.] In particular I get the feeling that this spirit wants to attack the human spirit, make it curl up and die, and specifically make human magic die.

Of course analytically I accept that others might safely use tobacco for magical purposes and that I shouldn't pass judgement on that.

However emotionally I find myself thinking "FOR FUCK'S SAKE GET THAT SHIT OUT OF YOUR LIFE!" I accept that that may ppear patronising.

Plus a dumb question -- difference between gods and deities? (I've got a feeling I really ought to know this)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:11 / 26.11.05
The thought suddenly occurred that some tips on safer bloodletting might not go amiss here. I say safer because poking holes in yourself is never an entirely safe practice; I've come across many stories over the years of rituals that had to be hastily put on hold so that one or more of the participants could be rushed off to Casualty for stitches.

I've been using this technique (from here): Hold your arm down by your side and clench/unclench your fist rapidly for half a minute or so, your veins should begin to pop up. Now, bind your thumb below the knuckle, a handkerchief works well but any rope or cord will do. Make it tight so that it is swollen and dark with trapped blood.

Even the slightest prick with a needle will allow the blood an exit. A litlle bubble/dome of the stuff, enough to sign your name. If you need more than this, just pepper the back of your thumb [less nerves] with little pricks - you should be able to get half a teaspoon with patience [or quicker with reckless abandon].
Release the binding, do the clenching, rebind and squeeze your thumb against it. The pinpricks will reopen and continue to bleed. Bleeding stops when the pressure is released.


It's pretty much pain-free and has given me no problems so far (although having said that, I only do this sort of thing once in a blue moon).
 
 
EmberLeo
21:18 / 04.08.06
Thank you to Mordant for pointing me towards this thread...

As far as I can tell, there wasn't such a tradition of blood sacrifice in the Northern trad, as in blood offerings as food.

Actually, yeah, there is - well, not in quite as direct a sense that Mange Lwa (sorry if I mangled that) is feeding the spirits.

But it's there both in the form of animals killed respectfully and ritually to prepare as a feast for the people honoring the gods, and in the lore there's more drastic manners of sacrifices of horses and livestock, or in serious duress, humans.

I know there's documentation supporting that Odin's were hung on trees, and Nerthus had 'em drowned in bogs.

On a personal UPG note, Freya has had me working up to being able to be fully responsible for life and death on a practical level. This, like several other lessons, seems to have gotten shelved as I've gotten overwhelmed with stress and such, but for a while I was getting pulled into dealing with various dead or dying animals.

Plucking a hawk. Field dressing a deer killed in sacred hunt. On a particularly traumatic occasion, a rabbit (my childhood ally) jumping out in front of me and broke it's neck. I tried to rescue it, but it died in my hands. I called my gythia and she told me to skin it. That was really, really hard, because I identify rabbits with babies for some reason. I haven't yet worked up to being able to butcher my own offerrings and food, but it's obvious that's the direction She wants me to go in.

The Gods and Spirits I work with like tobacco, they like cigars, so I handle cigars on a weekly basis.

I work with some of the African powers, and have been braced for them to ask me for tobacco, but the Mama told me I'm being held to a vow I made when I was 7 or so that I would never purchase or provide Tobacco for others, and I would never, ever smoke it myself. Which was a fairly firm confirmation, since I'd never told her about that vow.

But I thought it was odd, because I meant humans, not Lwa or Orixa or gods, you know? I mean, I know the posessing spirit can and does take alcohol and tobacco and wounds away with Them when They leave, so I don't really have an issue with it. I won't smoke as an offerring, but I don't have a problem with putting a cigar on the altar, or giving a medium in trance a pipe.

I don't think natural tobacco is evil, but after all the breeding and mixing and crap the Tobacco Industry has done to the poor plant, I can easily imagine why there would be anger and malice there.

The thought suddenly occurred that some tips on safer bloodletting might not go amiss here

That's fascinating, thank you!

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:28 / 04.08.06
But it's there both in the form of animals killed respectfully and ritually to prepare as a feast for the people honoring the gods, and in the lore there's more drastic manners of sacrifices of horses and livestock, or in serious duress, humans.

Oh certainly--we were talking specifically about the act of voluntary bloodletting in a ritual context. There are scads of references to animal and even human sacrifices to the Northern pantheon.
 
 
EmberLeo
21:41 / 04.08.06
Ah. Sorry. I guess I got confused, since it was being compared to feeding the Orixa or Lwa, which is specifically animals...

--Ember--
 
 
electric monk
18:55 / 08.08.06
On Entering Lightly into That Which is Serious

Some time ago, I was contacted by a god in a dream. Research confirmed that this contact was indeed from something outside myself and I felt at the time that I had been "chosen" in some way and should dedicate myself to this particular god. I read up on him, contacted him in ritual settings, built a walking staff dedicated to him, and generally threw my lot in with him. I imagined that he would be able to help me sort out some issues that were worrying me and that this blossoming relationship was the next step in my development. I also imagined, like a fool, that the demands and requirements that I KNEW this god would make of me were easily gotten around. I imagined I could substitute something else for the blood of my body. I imagined that if I did not become a priest of this god but only a follower, the frenzied castration attributed to his followers on his auspicious days would not be an issue. Perhaps red wine instead of blood. Maybe salty snacks. Perhaps there were deals to be made that would leave my manhood intact. Silly monk.

The first, most intense ritual took place under a full moon in my backyard. We have a path that leads from our patio to the base of three insanely tall slash pines arranged in an equilateral triangle. In the midst of the triangle is a circular growth of aloe and directly between the last stone of the path and the aloe is a bird bath. It was a simple matter to replace the bird bath with my altar and set up the necessaries for the ritual. I knew going in to this performance that blood sacrifice would be required (just this once!) and intended to cut my index finger with my athame. However, when it came time for the cutting, I found that the athame was either too dull or that I lacked the will to apply enough pressure to make a cut. The meager energies I had swirling around seemed ready to dissipate, and I looked around for any other option. Looking to my left, I noticed that there was a loooong bougainvillea branch sprouting off the bush along the north fenceline and right into my sacred space. Its thorns were fresh, solid, and perfect. I broke off a one-foot piece and whipped it back and forth in the air a couple times. Exactly what I needed. I readied myself, opened my right hand and turned the palm up. I brought the branch down on the flesh pad near my thumb at full speed, burying a thorn about halfway into my hand. Once the thorn was out, the blood flowed freely and gushed if I made a fist. Held the bleeding palm over the circle of aloe, arm extended over the altar and squeezed. The weak energies I was feeling strengthened and I felt full. I hummed. I vibrated. I had made contact and the god was pleased. When I felt I had given enough, I broke an end of aloe off and applied it to the wound. I asked for what I needed, said my thanks, closed the space, and cleaned up. Fell in bed exhausted.

I had done pretty well with my ritual and was pleased to find, over the next couple of weeks, that there was definitely a new presence in my life. Little lessons came my way almost constantly. Internalization of these and the will to do better were rewards of their own. Failure to learn or to recognize these messages gifted me with little slaps. Offerings were given, but I got the sense that this red wine faux-blood business wasn't cutting it, so to speak. But I shied from more bloodletting. More wine, sir? And then another stumble. Somewhere along the way, I let my practice trail off. "I'll get to it later", though I never did. Then everything started to go to hell. There are lots of ways to bleed, and an infinite amount of options available for losing one's manhood. I found out the hard way that these don't necessarily have to be physical. Bank accounts can bleed. Emotion can bleed out. Marriages can be in desperate need of transfusions. Happiness can scab over, and picking at it only produces a scar. Every definition of "man" can be sliced off and tossed away, until a "man" wonders just what "he" ever thought "he" was. Every duty a man has grown up believing is his can be gouged out. And then dryness. And sexlessness. And horror at the dickless, bloodless creature in the mirror. (Some of you got a very real taste of this from me in my contribution to the 'Sad and Depressed' thread.) "You're tearing me apart," I told the god one day. "I'm breaking. I'm dying. Can we stop this please? I know I've been a real shit to you. I've failed you. Please. Let me go. Tell me what to do and I'll do it." And he told me. And he continued to break me down until he was finished.

Thankfully, destruction can be useful. And sometimes the things or ideas one has held onto never did them any good in the first place. Better to cut them out (or have them cut out) and give something else room to grow. In place of all that had been taken away, I was given a mustard seed in return. I gave it choice soil to grow in, watered it, made sure it had adequate sun, talked to it, and cared for the tiny shoots that sprang up. Over time I found that despite my laziness and lack of dedication, I had been given what I'd asked for. Perhaps the road would not have been as hard to walk if I'd been better about maintaining the relationship. Perhaps not. Frankly, I just feel really fucking lucky to have made it out of what I danced into so lightly. I was an idiot, and I've probably gotten off way easier than I deserved. Of course, I'm still paying.

The bougainvillea bush that had come in so handy during the ritual was blown over in one of the hurricanes we suffered through last year. That bush was part of a network of five or six bushes that stretched across half the length of our northern fenceline. Say 20 or 30 feet. When I finally had the will, the tools, and the time to fix the bushes, they'd grown monstrous and woven in and out of one another, as well as into neighboring trees and the wooden fencing that had fallen on top of them. It was a total mess, burying a portion of our yard and encroaching on the slash pines. There was nothing for it but to cut them all down to the ground and let them regrow. This process has proved to be a gauntlet run and a living metaphor for all that I have had cut out of me. It has tested my patience, the limits of my physical fitness, and my tolerance for pain. Pruning a bougainvillea will usually earn the pruner a puncture or two. Going at a bougainvillea with the knucklebusters, saw and hedgetrimmer, I've found, ensures cuts on every exposed piece of skin. My wife has insisted time and again that I wear long sleeves and pants while I do this work. I have steadfastly refused on the grounds that it would be much too hot, which is true enough. My real reason, and what I cannot tell her, is that this pain and bleeding is penance and I cannot take the easy way around it. It must be done. I always promise to be careful and wear gloves, but every session ends with arms and legs ventilated and leaking. Thankfully, I'm almost finished now. Two, maybe three more Saturday mornings of this and I'll be done with blood. Then, finally, I can destroy the walking staff I dedicated and be done with this whole business.

I'm hoping that by sharing this I can give pause to someone else somewhere. I hope they'll see and understand the mistakes I made and pull back before they get into something they're not ready for. I'm honestly grateful for what's been given to me, and am happier and more sure of myself now than I was before this whole mess began. Still, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. This is a serious, serious arena and we play at our peril.
 
 
grant
19:10 / 08.08.06
Speaking as a barefoot gardener who's done plenty of bougainvillea trimming over the years: Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow!

Man, you made me get all woozy for a second there. Those things *hurt*.

The thorns, for those unfamiliar with them, are about .75 - 1 inch long, slender and just curved enough to make a bigger hole coming out than they made going in. Often planted for security purposes.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:35 / 08.08.06
My real reason, and what I cannot tell her, is that this pain and bleeding is penance and I cannot take the easy way around it.

Why can't you tell your wife that? You've just told us. I tell my fella about my knifey-burny goings-on.
 
 
Ticker
19:51 / 08.08.06
Thank You monk. It means a lot to me to read about your experience.

Often people speak of their relationships with Gods as if they were easy things and I guess sometimes and for some people they are. Not for me.

I'd thought that by giving the blood freely, by choosing to endure things, by not shirking my responsibilities that I'd avoid the heavy ass kicking. What I've learned is that I still exercise too much control this way. It's a fine magical tool for specific tasks or the act of thanksgiving or even offering of energy to another (I've been offering blood to the trees I'm starting to work with as a matter of course).

But there are degrees of sacrifice and each motivating reason of intent will ascribe its own payment. I'm becoming aware that the reason my last epic sacrifice was involuntary was it clearly connected me to a truth I could only experience when I was stripped of ego, defenses, and thought. I had requested the information (so I could improve my relationship with my Gods) through a controlled ritual bloodletting I was lucky enough Raven Kaldera performed for me at an Ordeal Mastery training session.

This voluntary bloodletting resulted in a much latter delivery of a horrible accident with little blood, but a metric fuck ton of emotional pain and a goodly amount of humbling hassle.

When we interact with the Gods or Powers it is not always on our terms and adhering to our conditions. Shit, half the time we aren't slick enough to remember to request terms and conditions but rather blithely leap into these things.

I was given what I asked for in the most effective way possible, and in hindsight, with the least awful side effects. It was still horrendous and I'm still sorting out the pieces.
Would I do it again? Fuck yes. Would I suggest it to others? Fuck no.
 
 
electric monk
21:08 / 08.08.06
Why can't you tell your wife that?

That's a good question. It upsets her to see all the damage that gets done, and I think that's what's put me off being honest with her about it. I'm not sure how she'd handle knowing that I'm willingly putting myself in harm's way.

...

That's not a very satisfying answer. I'm going to have to chew on that one a while.
 
 
EmberLeo
21:50 / 08.08.06
Often people speak of their relationships with Gods as if they were easy things and I guess sometimes and for some people they are.

I must admit, one of the reasons I'm reluctant to do bloodletting is because I'm wary of the doors it may open. And I'm awfully careful what I ask for - I rarely ask for much, actually, prefering to live with the blessings They see fit to bestow in Their greater wisdom.

But then I look at that, and my own life, and I think... I guess I make it sound easy, or fluffy, or something, from the reactions I get. But what relationship is easy? Does closeness imply ease? Does distance? Whether it's easy to get in, and hard to get out, or hard to get in, that's a challenge.

For me, the easy things I can talk about, and the hard things are the parts I can't so readily articulate. That's what makes them so hard. I can't just wrap my brain around them. Months, years of wrestling with things that hurt when I am forced to face them again, and if I set aside the time to process it it doesn't help. Odin, or Freya, or Ghede, or whoever will hand me the next piece when it comes up, and I'll understand, or I won't, and if I don't, I get to wait for the next piece, worried I'll miss it, but faithful They'll send it again until I catch on.

I keep telling myself I should be more dedicated, and then I look at my schedule and wonder where it's supposed to come from, if I'm supposed to go sacrificing the downtime I need with more work for the gods. And yet so much of the work I do doesn't seem like it can possibly be enough.

I don't think it's always about blood, and injury, and things that make a hard-sounding story, you know? Sometimes it's about internal labyrinths that sound easy unless you happen to be lost in them. There's some obvious, pat answer, and that's all well and good, but it doesn't WORK.

Raven Kaldera

Really? Raven is a friend of my teachers... Small world.

--Ember--
 
 
EvskiG
02:45 / 09.08.06
I don't think it's always about blood, and injury, and things that make a hard-sounding story, you know?

Me either. Life involves plenty of ordeals without tossing an additional bucket of blood (or Crowley's razor) into the mix.

And I have to admit that the whole concept of pain or suffering as "penance" strikes me as a bit off.

Still, different strokes (or lashes, or piercings) for different folks.
 
 
Ticker
12:58 / 09.08.06
I see it as one tool of many, some of the others are the fuzzy warm 'SQUEE!'s of celebrating the world. Some forms of sacrifice are in gentle but hard work like serving in a soup kitchen or picking up trash. An intense offering is the gift of love to someone who does not often receive it. I hold sacred prostitutes in very high regard for the offerings they make in the world.

One of my teachers pointed out that Quan Yin would not want Her followers sticking diabetic lancets in their hides to draw blood for sacrifice. The care of the despairing would suit far better. I doubt it makes doing Quan Yin's work any easier than doing another Deity's work. It's still work and effort is an offering only the person tendering it and the Receiver may judge.

Yet is it easier in our culture to tell people you are heading down to the soup kitchen for a few hours rather than explain why you are going to be hung from flesh hooks?


Let's look at penance for a minute. In the West we can look at Christian and pre Christian mythology and see examples of wrong doing and resulting action to readdress the balance. In fact I'm fairly confident that the theme can be found in almost all mythology. You fuck up and you want to repair the damage. We think of it as asking for forgiveness through action. BUT WAIT!! There is another form of penance....

Wiki:Penance in non-Christian faith traditions
In eastern religions (Hinduism, etc.), acts of hardship committed on oneself (fasting, lying on rocks heated by the Sun, etc.), especially as part of an ascetic way of life (as monk or 'wise man') in order to attain a higher form of mental awareness (through detachment from the earthly, not punishing guilt) or favours from (the) God(s).

Here the act is framed not as a guilt motivated self punishment but as something we might call sacrifice.

Is the act of cleaning up a stretch of highway or helping people learn how to read a form of worthy sacrifice? Is it worth such and such more or such and such less than being whipped voluntarily while you pray? To me this is the wrong way of looking at these things. I believe each person needs to examine what is motivating them, what their concerns are, and what their intent is.

Bringing guilt derived masochism to the alter of a Power that doesn't want it is incorrect. Having faith and trust in the gentle guidence of a Power to undertake a scary task is correct. To figure out which is happening takes a lot of thought and self awareness.
 
 
EvskiG
13:19 / 09.08.06
Wiki:Penance in non-Christian faith traditions

In eastern religions (Hinduism, etc.), acts of hardship committed on oneself (fasting, lying on rocks heated by the Sun, etc.), especially as part of an ascetic way of life (as monk or 'wise man') in order to attain a higher form of mental awareness (through detachment from the earthly, not punishing guilt) or favours from (the) God(s).


Perhaps it's a matter of definitions, but I don't see imposing acts of hardship on one's self to achieve greater mental (or spiritual or physical) awareness as "penance" at all.

As you note, "penance" seems to suggest guilt-motivated self-punishment (e.g., I did something wrong so I must atone), if not guilt-derived masochism (e.g., I didn't properly worship my god, so I must hurt myself).

Personally, when penance takes the form of self-injury rather than, say, good works, I don't see that as a healthy or fruitful spiritual path.

(Of course, I believe it's been well-established and accepted within Christianity, from flagellants to the wearing of a cilice.)

Obviously, others may disagree.
 
 
Ticker
14:27 / 09.08.06
As you note, "penance" seems to suggest guilt-motivated self-punishment (e.g., I did something wrong so I must atone), if not guilt-derived masochism (e.g., I didn't properly worship my god, so I must hurt myself).

Personally, when penance takes the form of self-injury rather than, say, good works, I don't see that as a healthy or fruitful spiritual path.


See working with this definition I'd say both forms of penance are unhealthy no matter what the action undertaken is (good works or self harm).

Guilt motivated self punishment/masochism are not from my POV aspects of a sane and healthy psyche. Doesn't matter what the resulting form is. Working your life away in soup kitchen from guilt is just as messed up as taking a razor to your hide. Nor do I believe a Deity would impose this on someone rather I believe it is a manifestation of internal injury. Is it real and need to be honored as an aspect of people? Yes, but I do not believe it should ever be seen as less horrible just because the external process is less gory. What is happening on the inside of the person is still awful.

This might sound a bit confusing so please allow me to break down the concept of guilt as a motivator for anything. Guilt in this sense is the belief of an individual that they have done something wrong. If that guilt motivates them to correct the wrong it is serving a reasonable function but the minute it becomes self punishment it is no longer appropriately correcting any imbalance in the world. It is creating imbalance.

An example might be a person who realizes that their lifestyle has inflicted damage on the natural environment. A correct action to shift this guilt might be to change one's ways and perhaps spend time volunteering for an environmental cause, both of which discontinue the action which was the cause of guilt. However if the person's internal sense of self is so ruined that they leave no time for the care of their families or themselves and selflessly toil at the tasks because they view themselves as horrible worthless beings, we have an inappropriate response.

This is direct contrast to someone who does the same intense work but with the joy of purpose, 'I am doing Good Work' without the motivator of guilt.

Walk with me a bit further...

If I choose to do a ritual sacrifice of pain to honor the spirits of roadkill not out of guilt but compassion to empathize with those animals, to witness their violent deaths by focusing my attention through intense physical sensation, I too can say 'I am doing Good Work'. From my POV I am sharing the pain of their deaths as much as I can and honoring their experience without being motivated by guilt to do so. I offer them my blood and my pain because on some level they are the only things I can give that is mine (paired with joy, always joy).
 
 
EvskiG
14:39 / 09.08.06
I offer them my blood and my pain because on some level they are the only things I can give that is mine (paired with joy, always joy).

This is where you lost me.

Blood and pain are the only things you can give that are yours?

What about your love, your compassion, your empathy, your recognition of their situation -- hell, even your money (donating to a wildlife refuge, or a tunnel that will allow the poor bunnies' relatives to avoid the road in the future)?

Blood and pain may be options, but they don't seem to me like the "only" options.
 
 
Ticker
15:00 / 09.08.06
Er, sorry I thought the earlier part about compassion in there made it clear it is about that and love.

Blood and pain are the only things you can give that are yours?

(also joy was in there too)

In the sense of being products I can create myself. Okay if I make something to sacrifice I'm using material from another entity (food/art). I can offer song and dance as the efforts of my flesh (there's a joke in here someplace about my singing voice I'm sure) but extreme use/effort will result in pain, which I embrace as a sign of how much I am giving.

The only food I can offer which is truly mine to give is that of my body, my blood, my sweat, my tears, all of my flesh (someday in death I will give all of it feed those who have sustained me). The only expression of thanksgiving I can give which is truly mine is the combined effort of my body, my mind, my heart, and soul.
 
 
EvskiG
15:25 / 09.08.06
I got the bit about compassion and joy.

That's why I was surprised to see your flat-out statement (even with its qualifications) that "I offer them my blood and my pain because on some level they are the only things I can give that is mine . . ."

To the extent that pain is a product you can create yourself, as you recognize, so are joy, compassion, and the weariness that comes from effort. To the extent that blood is a food or product you can create yourself, as you recognize, so are tears, or the sweat from dance or any sort of physical exertion.

(And even extreme physical exertion doesn't have to result in pain -- plenty of times I've finished a workout or other physical effort exhausted and bone-tired, but not in pain.)

I don't see why you'd put pain and blood at the top of the list, other than as a matter of personal preference.

Which is fine, but not my personal schtick.
 
 
Ticker
16:29 / 09.08.06
I think it is also coming out that way in the context of this topic.
For example on Sunday I celebrated one of my highest holidays by baking and dancing.
No blood, only a little pain in the form of dancing even when I had a blister. So it was more in spite of the discomfort and not intentionally for the pain.

I say 'blood and pain' as a very specific form of sacrifice, as the most difficult and extreme offering I can give. Delight and adoration are ones I give more often by comparison.

I'm sometimes fast to draw a drop of blood for two reasons. The first is jabbing a diabetic lancet into my fingertip is now a mini ritual of centering my intent and it does work really well to collect my wandering attention quickly. The second is that some of the Folks I work with respond best to blood as a means of invitation.

My most common offering is food I prepare with intent. With the plants and rocks I work with the drop of blood is an offering of my energy. Sometimes they want water or to be moved or some such. There are times when spittle is more appropriate than blood.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:46 / 09.08.06
extreme use/effort will result in pain, which I embrace as a sign of how much I am giving.

See, there's where I wince - to me, sufferring is a sign that I've failed to lay a proper boundary to take care of myself, which is my responsibility.

That doesn't mean I can't see the magical use of pain, but I understand it not as sacrifice (though I'm familiar with the concept, I try to differentiate between offerrings given with love and sacred intent vs. giving up something I need, or otherwise harming myself to elevate another. "Sacrifice" literally refers to the process of making something Sacred. I don't think harm is a natural implication, I think that's a perversion.

How I understand pain in magic is as a way of inducing altered conciousness. Extremes of the physical can induce ecstatic trance when handled correctly. Personally, pain pulls me out of trance, but I know too many others it works for to doubt it's effectiveness in general. I know dancing until I'm exhausted and well past my limits of effort isn't something I do to establish the worth of my offerring, it's something I do to induce an ecstatic trance state that I can't achieve any other way.

The only food I can offer which is truly mine to give is that of my body

I can understand this as well, though I tend to prefer other offerrings of self more. I admit, though, I would sooner do bloodletting than cut off my hair.

--Ember--
 
  

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