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America has an erotic fear of women

 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:27 / 29.04.05

America has an erotic fear of women.

The colonisation of the American Continet represents the first attempts at sexual control over an untouched woman by Father Europe.

Later, the desire to break away from Europe represents hatred and fear of
the parent and the desire to have the woman, the American Continent, for onesself.

The constitution represents the rules that the male creates around him to give legitimacy to what he does; as he has learnt, he must work to rules, or the father will admonish him.

The advance on the wild west represents the honeymoon night; having gained legitimacy of action through the creation of the new country, which represents marriage, or legitimisation of maculinity, the male acts out his
desires in full.

The forcing of native tribes onto reservations represents the desire of the autistic*/paranoic male to quantify,number and collate everything he sees,to take "the Other" (womanhood) and make it fit into what he already knows to marry the woman, to make her no longer the alien "woman", but the intimately known "mother" or "wife", no longer a native civilisation but a native savagery.

The isolationist policies of the first world war represent the male refusing to beleive that there can be anything wrong in the "holy union" between it's mother and father which it takes for granted; if there is, it is easier for the autistic male to turn away and ignore than to emote and deal with the problem.

The fear of womanhood comes to a head in the modern era. America defeats it's rival to the west, Japan, with which it once shared the status of "other than Europe", i.e. America and Japan were once both "uncharted territories" for the European Father. Now Brother Japan must be totally
eviscerated by the atomic bomb as it has become "other" to America, a reminder to America that once it too was "the other", or female.

America defeats one rival to the east, Germany, yet because of the male's paranoic fear experienced by the male, it feels that it must assimilate it's dead rival: so it evacuates top scientists for itself (e.g. Werner Von
Braun), regardless of their moral repugnancy (Von Braun was an SS member),because the male beleives it is better to own a trophy of the defeated male rival than let a third rival (the USSR) destroy the carcass.

Nazis rescued by America go on to form the CIA and the Space Program.

As an intelligence agency, the CIA represents the paranoia of the male
state. It must know everything about it's rival whilst simultaneously
regarding it as evil and untouchable, as an adolescent boy wishes to know
what his brother has done with girls but will never ask except in
competition.

The Space Program, NASA, represents an attempt to affirm masculinity
against the rival's Sputnik. As religion decays, a new monument is raised:
the space rocket, a monolithic phallic structure, as the cross has dropped
it's bar and figure, a furthering of christian imagery to it's extremes.
When the rocket is launched to the moon, it represents a double victory: a
victory over the rival, the USSR, and a victory by penetration of the moon,
the greatest "other", which has for centuries been worshipped as a female
Godess.

The pictures are beamed back: America proves that the Godess is
barren, lifeless. The victory is not in getting there but in having got
there and proving that the other is powerless.The only thing in her body
worth celebrating is the American flag poking into her flesh.

In popular culture, Rock 'n' Roll erupts with swinging hips and phallic
guitars. At first it is a form of hymnal to the American Father, but as it
progresses, it will sometimes strive to break away from, and be attacked
by, the American Father, as creation is seen as inherently female by the
American Father, which attacks it's semi©girlchild like a king or lion.

"Western", or "Cowboy", films represent a crystallisation, or recording, of
the Male's conquests over "the other", to provide security, as the neurotic
male will masturbate over mental images of sexual encounters.

Science Fiction films at first continue in this veign, by trying to
extrapolate the Male's assault on the moon by portraying seeds of the male,
astronauts, going off to conquer "the other" that is Space.

However, there is an unconcious realisation that Space is too vast to
conquer in this way, which leads to the encroachment of paranoia
represented by alien monsters.

These aliens come in flying saucers: a spacecraft totally unlike the
security-giving phallus of the Appollo craft. These flying saucers usually contain
weaponry hidden away in a compartment at the base of a curved body; the
female form. They squat over the American male (the White House with it's
errect Stupa)and unleash devastation by unknowably mysterious and powerful
forces that the Male is not evolved enough to understand.

Compare this to Japan's Godzilla, where the monster is an enormous (male)
monster that wreaks devastation on humanity (a coded reference to the
atomic bomb), or to Britain's Daleks, ridiculous yet terrifying mechanical
creatures, totally unempathetic monsters laden with phalluses.

As the millenium arrives, the American male flexes it's muscles one last
time, seeing rivals dotted across the surface of the globe and even inside
itself: ignoring the wishes of the father that it created to give itself
legitimacy, the UN security council, it goes in search of both traditional
rivals, as in, defined countries, such as Iraq, Syria, Iran, China, but now
also abstract concepts: terrorism, evolution, subversion: forces for change
that threaten it.

*the word autistic in this sense is not intended to demean people with autism, it's used in the wider sense, but of course if you feel another word would be more suitable/less hurtful then please say.
 
 
Illihit
03:05 / 30.04.05
So does the innate nature of America, that of a male dominance, only serve to oppress the thinking of its populace?

Because we are raised in a place that is coated with symbolism, and the subconcious affect on the symbolism, it would seem impossible to free our thinking from misogynistic thought.

I see it as an ability America is entirely capable of, but only through the recognition that it has a fear of women. Perhaps the civil rights movement is the subconscious rebelling against conscious thought; is the counterculture as a whole equal to a subconscious in modern times? An odd development from the fear of women that is the exact opposite. Any ideas on how this cam about?
 
 
Mirror
17:21 / 30.04.05
I'd compare the colonization of America more to the invasion of a foreign weed, against which none of the native plants have any defenses. Each species and each cultural group of human beings struggles to advance its own interests above those of others.

You could probably build the same set of "assertions" about the Norman conquest of Britain, or the growth and fall of your choice of empires, or the spread of bacterial colonies. It's not about some fantasy battle of the sexes - it's about the fact that we have tens of thousands of years of kill-or-be-killed, dominate-or-be-dominated still active in our animal brains. The spread and dominance of technology is simply a result of evolutionary advantage.

Makes you wonder what will happen if ever we do attain an AI singularity.
 
 
astrojax69
03:24 / 02.05.05
just to play devil's advocate here, what if legba's words were gender-inverted?

who circumscribes abstract nouns like nation states and planets/satellites with gendered terms, anyway? why is one thing female, another male?? (surely not just 'cause a human female or a male did something??)

anyway, it'd look a little like this:




America has an erotic fear of men.

The colonisation of the American Continent represents the first attempts at sexual control over an untouched woman by Mother Europe.

Later, the desire to break away from Europe represents hatred and fear of the parent and the desire to have the man, the American Continent, for one’s self.

The constitution represents the rules that the female creates around her to give legitimacy to what she does; as she has learnt, she must work to rules, or the mother will admonish her.

The advance on the wild west represents the honeymoon night; having gained legitimacy of action through the creation of the new country, which represents marriage, or legitimisation of femininity, the female acts out her desires in full.

The forcing of native tribes onto reservations represents the desire of the autistic*/paranoaic female to quantify, number and collate everything she sees, to take "the Other" (manhood) and make it fit into what she already knows to marry the man, to make him no longer the alien "man", but the intimately known "father" or "husband", no longer a native civilisation but a native savagery.

The isolationist policies of the first world war represent the female refusing to believe that there can be anything wrong in the "holy union" between it's mother and father which it takes for granted; if there is, it is easier for the autistic female to turn away and ignore than to emote and deal with the problem.

The fear of manhood comes to a head in the modern era. America defeats it's rival to the west, Japan, with which it once shared the status of "other than Europe", i.e. America and Japan were once both "uncharted territories" for the European Mother. Now Brother Japan must be totally eviscerated by the atomic bomb as it has become "other" to America, a reminder to America that once it too was "the other", or male.

America defeats one rival to the east, Germany, yet because of the female's paranoic fear experienced by the female, it feels that it must assimilate it's dead rival: so it evacuates top scientists for itself (e.g. Werner Von Braun), regardless of their moral repugnancy (Von Braun was an SS member), because the female believes it is better to own a trophy of the defeated female rival than let a third rival (the USSR) destroy the carcass.

Nazis rescued by America go on to form the CIA and the Space Program.

As an intelligence agency, the CIA represents the paranoia of the female
state. It must know everything about it's rival whilst simultaneously
regarding it as evil and untouchable, as an adolescent girl wishes to know what his sister has done with boys but will never ask, except in competition.

The Space Program, NASA, represents an attempt to affirm femininity
against the rival's Sputnik. As religion decays, a new monument is raised: the space rocket, a monolithic structure, as the cross has dropped it's bar and figure, a furthering of christian imagery to it's extremes. [i don't really see this - a phallus is not a cross, therefore, no longer a christian symbol??] When the rocket is launched to the moon, it represents a double victory: a victory over the rival, the USSR, and a victory by penetration of the moon, the greatest "other", which has for centuries been worshipped as a God.

The pictures are beamed back: America proves that the God is barren, lifeless. The victory is not in getting there but in having got there and proving that the other is powerless. The only thing in his body worth celebrating is the American flag poking into his flesh.

In popular culture, Rock 'n' Roll erupts with swinging hips and phallic guitars [??]. At first it is a form of hymnal to the American Mother, but as it progresses, it will sometimes strive to break away from, and be attacked by, the American Mother, as creation is seen as inherently male by the American Mother, which attacks it's semi©girlchild like a king or lion.

"Western", or "Cowboy", films represent a crystallisation, or recording, of the Female's conquests over "the other", to provide security, as the neurotic female will masturbate over mental images of sexual encounters.

Science Fiction films at first continue in this vein, by trying to extrapolate the Female's assault on the moon by portraying eggs of the female, astronauts, going off to conquer "the other" that is Space.

However, there is an unconscious realisation that Space is too vast to conquer in this way, which leads to the encroachment of paranoia represented by alien monsters.

These aliens come in flying saucers: a spacecraft totally unlike the security-giving phallus of the Appollo craft. These flying saucers usually contain weaponry hidden away in a compartment at the base of a curved body; the male form. They squat over the American female (the White House with it's erect Stupa) and unleash devastation by unknowably mysterious and powerful forces that the Female is not evolved enough to understand.

Compare this to Japan's Godzilla, where the monster is an enormous (male) monster that wreaks devastation on humanity (a coded reference to the atomic bomb), or to Britain's Daleks, ridiculous yet terrifying mechanical creatures, totally unempathetic monsters laden with phalluses. [i left this alone]

As the millennium arrives, the American female flexes it's muscles one last time, seeing rivals dotted across the surface of the globe and even inside itself: ignoring the wishes of the mother that it created to give itself legitimacy, the UN security council, it goes in search of both traditional rivals, as in, defined countries, such as Iraq, Syria, Iran, China, but now also abstract concepts: terrorism, evolution, subversion: forces for change that threaten it.




this also seems an equally fair enough - at least basically internally consistent - account of matters, so which one do we give any creedence to?
 
 
Ganesh
09:16 / 02.05.05
Hmm, interesting. I'd probably frame it more in terms of a clash of belief systems: monotheistic Christianity straitjacketing polytheistic animism into more polarised gender roles, and introducing the concept of sin.

Will try to add more later.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:41 / 02.05.05
I was thinking along similar lines, astrojax... it's all a question of perspective, viewing the world through whichever binary opposition (I know it doesn't HAVE to be a binary opposition, but for the sake of this thread I'll stick to that) we choose- a grand narrative can be imposed on global events.
Not to say that I don't agree with Legba's ideas... just that I think there's a lot more going on.

Oh, and by the way: totally unempathetic monsters laden with phalluses. [i left this alone] I've always thought of them as unsympathetic monsters covered in nipples.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
19:44 / 02.05.05
How do you explain the explosion of feminism and gender politics - that is to focus on US specific feminism(s) for example...
 
 
astrojax69
01:42 / 03.05.05
sure, stoat - i wasn't trying to disagree with much of what legba was saying...

there is a lot of discourse attacking ideologies that doesn't account for its initial premises that otherwise might have been quite apposite. (i think much of the work of greenpeace and the like is undone through this) it does get in the way and i'm none so sure a gender assessment of history in these terms actually does much to add to the debate. though it was a fascinating account legba! ta.


not sure, though, about having a go at the poor old daleks... just stick them at the bottom of a flight of stairs and get the hell out of there...!! (old doc who re-runs are currently on where i am and i'm hanging out for more dalek episodes) my asessment is that english theatre/film of this ilk is more aligned with psychological terror where its american (hollywood) counterpart is given over to the visual horror. is there a gender assessment there?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:28 / 03.05.05
it does get in the way and i'm none so sure a gender assessment of history in these terms actually does much to add to the debate. though it was a fascinating account legba! ta.

no worries.

I think I can see what you mean here: we get caught up in the context, the bigger picture, and all our sitting around chatting about it on messageboards totally fails to save a single third world farmer. I can see that, and there's been conversations about that here before.

However (and I'm not getting at you), I think we need to look at the bigger picture as well, we need to look at things on a global scale, and from different (unexpected?) viewpoints, to find insight.

For example, suppose that I've just discovered the erotic fear that leads X Entity to cause x/y/z bad effects (not saying I have, but just suppose). Now that I know the root cause behind all the separate bad effects, is it not now easier to identify a goal for removing the bad effects? We know the weakness, we know what needs changing?

Or for another slightly cheesier example, suppose you're playing an RPG-style computer game. You've got a huge axe, loads of armour- the basic goblins and spiders you're up against aren't much trouble.

But something is creating a new goblin everytime you kill one, and you can't defeat it because it's invisible. Your axe is useless. And, it's killing your character everytime you enter it's lair because you can't see it: so much for that armour.

But, once you know that it's invisible, you can stock up on ant-invisibility skills, instead of wasting your resources on (e.g.)fire skills? Yeah? And then your existing talents become more useful.

You need to know your enemy* at the macrocosmic as well as microcosmic scale, and that's what my assertions are all about.

just to play devil's advocate here, what if legba's words were gender-inverted?

This was interesting and insightful, but with all due respect, I chose to read the actions as that of a terrified male because most of the people performing these actions were male.

The advance on the wild west represents the honeymoon night; having gained legitimacy of action through the creation of the new country, which represents marriage, or legitimisation of femininity/masculinity, the female/male acts out her desires in full.

Again, with all due respect, I would use the word male here, because at the time the west was being advanced on, women were expected by society to be obedient husbands. Of course there were feminists, but this was a long time before feminism went mainstream.



*When I say enemy, I don't refer to the whole of America, I refer to the ignorance/bigotry/"outer church" stuff therein (and no, of course it doesn't just exist there).
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:29 / 03.05.05
*for obedient husbands read obedient wives
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:36 / 03.05.05
But where's the space in this for the Feminine Void that sucks out male creativity?

And why restrict this to America? Norman conquest of England= masculine desire for more territory, Italian conquest of the Incas, Russia's slide into totalitarianism under the 'benevolent father' Josef...
 
 
lord henry strikes back
15:33 / 03.05.05
A very interesting piece which I may need to read through a couple more times to fully grasp. However, there is something that I will pick up on now:

As religion decays, a new monument is raised: the space rocket, a monolithic phallic structure, as the cross has dropped it's bar and figure, a furthering of christian imagery to it's extremes

The shape of the space rocket was defined simply by aerodynamics, it was the most efficient design for cutting through several hundred km of atmosphere.

These aliens come in flying saucers: a spacecraft totally unlike the security-giving phallus of the Appollo craft

I agree that flying saucers were designed to appear completely unlike the Apollo craft, but I don't think that this had anything to to with gendered imagery. The alien craft needed to be the opposite of our craft, and hence alien. As I argued above, the design of our space ship was science, and not gender, defined. By extention, I don't think you can read too much into simply designing Apollo's antithesis.

Posting from work so I'll have to come back to this later.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:21 / 04.05.05
...why restrict this to America? Norman conquest of England= masculine desire for more territory, Italian conquest of the Incas...

(Not to be pernickety, but it was Iberian Europe- Spain and Portugal- that conquered the Incas and Aztecs. Just clearing it up, not sniping at anyone)

Yes, you could equally apply this to the actions of any of these states, and more- in fact please do! It's just that America seems to be the most relevant example in terms of how recent these actions are, and that that it allowed me to go into more close cultural details than I would have been able to for, say, Italy.

The shape of the space rocket was defined simply by aerodynamics, it was the most efficient design for cutting through several hundred km of atmosphere.


Of course aerodynamics decided the shape of the space rocket, I mean, they had to if it was going to do what it was meant to. I'm not saying they got out their drawing boards and the first thing they drew was a cock.

But look at what the rocket, essentially a machine for evolution, a machine for entering the space age, was based on: weaponry, machines for killing. Trace the moon rocket back to it's genesis and along the way you'll find V2 Rockets, early Chinese artillery, and finally the simple bow and arrow.

Now look at the groups responsible for launching it: the millitarised (it was the middle of the cold war)industrial state, helped by "reformed" Nazis.

What links all this? Masculinity- male designers in a male-dominated, millitarised world. Yes, part of the design specification for the rocket was: "This machine must gain x altitude, it must move at x miles per hour", but surely the political specification, that allowed it the money to be built, included "...must make America look stronger than Russia"? Surely that was a major reason for building it?

Now, would the purpose, or the look, of the rocket be different if the people designing it had been women?

Or perhaps a more important (and less sexist) way of looking at it: what if the whole chain of development had been based not on weaponry, but on machines for preserving life, like (essentially) a kangaroo's pouch, or a pappouse? Think about it: these are both intended to carry a living creature safely from one place to another, through a hostile environment- like a spacecraft.

Which brings us to:

I agree that flying saucers were designed to appear completely unlike the Apollo craft (because they were alien, not because of)gendered imagery.(sic)

Can we so sure, though?

The people designing the sets and models for B movies in the 50s would have been male, and their aesthetics were not restricted by having to build a real life spaceship.

They were building a 1/35 scale balsa wood film prop! Of course they had financial and material restrictions, but they had more resources than the real-life rocket designers.

They were able to use their imagination; yes, of course they were trying to make something unlike our own tech, but with the imagination comes the subconcious, and with the subconcious the fear of women also potentially creeps into the design.

Compare the Americans to the ancient Greeks in this context. Their version of an "alien" was the Griffon, which was based on what the Greeks had heard of local legends and what they had seen of Protoceratops fossils from Scythia (Mongolia).

Today, we have a set of scientific rules/restrictions on how to interpret dinosaur fossils. The Greeks didn't. In the same way as how the Americans building model spaceships didn't have to actually send their vehicle to space and could use their imagination, the Greeks didn't know that the animal had to logically look a certain way- they didn't know what a dinosaur was! So they used their imagination as well as the collected bones.

In their reconstruction of the dinosaur, they created a monster with a chaotic mish-mash of features: part bird, part animal, a mix of air and sky and totally predatory, that dwelled in what they saw as a barbaric, scary, unknown place: the "final frontier" of the day, Scythia.

They saw themselves as the ordered, civilised counterpart to the "primitives" of Mongolia, and so it stood to (subconcious) reason to conceive a Mongolian monster as symbol of things chaotic and un-Greek.

My point is, societies base their popular monsters on what is known and unknown. The monster must be a counterpoint to what is commonly held dear- hence the (American male) designers subconciously create a monster which is feminine and un-American.

I think we could do with an illustration of a classic flying saucer attack from Indepence Day:

Not only is the alien weaponry hidden away inside the curved spacecraft: the alien craft is big enough to envelope the symbol of (American) masculinity. The weaponry glows, it is unlike the weaponry that we know: it is mysterious.The lights on the hull alude to unknown goings-on within, compared to the open facade of the white house.

Contrast the submarine/missile/phallus Sularco from Aliens with the crashed Boneship, with it's internal, organic passages and egg sacs.

This thread about spaceship design may be relevant.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:33 / 04.05.05
Another thing from Independence Day: to save the world, American Male fighter pilots (essentially Males multiplied by 3), have to penetrate the ship, and fire a missile once there to destroy it.

Which the astute among you will have already referenced with Star Wars, where fighter pilots do the same thing but the enemy here is a giant penis in space, the Death Star: remember that Lucas was possibly having a pop at the American Establishment/American Male when he made this, viz-a-viz "I am your father, Luke"/"No! it cannot be" etc. There is more on this somewhere in Barbelith, though I can't find the thread at present.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:37 / 04.05.05
But where's the space in this for the Feminine Void that sucks out male creativity?

That would be Space itself, by my reckoning: the brave adventurer spacemen (sperm) go out in their rocket (phallus) to an unknown world where danger waits; man and his spaceship is tiny compared to what's out there.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
16:21 / 04.05.05
I am a little confused by your imagery here. In regards to the space craft of Independence Day you define their femininity by their curved sides, hidden weapons, and the mysterious glow of the laser.

The Death Star is spherical. There is not a single straight edge on it. Its weaponry is completely hidden, to the point that Luke and his gang are fooled into believing that it is not yet operational (which could be seen as a nod to the duplicity of the feminine: acting defenceless whilst being anything but). The weapon, when activated, is an almost identical glowing beem of light. An yet you describe the Death Star as a giant penis in space.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
16:51 / 04.05.05
Perhaps the Death Star is a giant testicle in space?

I really like Legba's essay. It's very funny and it's also quite on the money, as far as issues like colonisation, war, legitimation, statehood have historically been represented in gendered terms. You can't really do a 'female version', because actually, the great expanse of fertile, colonisable land that makes up America was and is referred to as 'she'. It's traditional: and it institutes an imperial/rationalist male subject as the purveyor, surveyor and (sexual) conqueror of this land.

Anyhow, I really like how it's so Freudian, Legba. Freduain historical games rule. But what about the Alien mother in Aliens? How does she fit in?
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:37 / 04.05.05
while we're speaking of the DEATH STAR
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:24 / 05.05.05
Henry Wotton- good point about the Death Star- yes, it does conform to what I've described as a female archetype. But remember, it's not an alien ship, is it? It's a male human creative/destructive enterprise, isn't it? Made, like the American moonrocket, to show how strong The Empire is.

I should have gone into more detail, but the death star is seen as the male in this context because it's part of The Empire, is staffed, designed, and run by human Males, and goes around destroying planets- curved, fruitful,live giving planets.

And we know exactly what the weapon is! Darth Vader (unfeeling male, anyone?) and his all male chums spend a good five minutes showing off the effectiveness of their Superweapon to the puberscent Princess Leia, by destroying her family and childhood home!

Or, to use other terminology, Vader is exposing the full details of the phallus and claiming it's ability to destroy the protective fatherly archetype that's keeping him from owning the female object of desire.

Crucially, by the end of the film, we the audience actually know it's construction inside out, right down to the waste disposal. Compare this to the alien craft in other films that are often straight unknowns. It is no longer mysterious.

Star Wars is generally more "boy fights boy/dad" than "boy fears girl", anyway.

Freudian historical games rule. But what about the Alien mother in Aliens? How does she fit in?

The Alien series is of course a whole different kettle of fish compared to 50s B Sci-fi. They come several generations later, at a time when the memes are well established. Ridley Scott and HR Giger had an existing framework of imagery to create something new out of. Giger, as a reader of surrealism, no doubt knew all about the subconcious meanings of the forms in his designs.

Essentially, both of the main creative people behind the film are probably well literate in the very discussion we're having here. But to the films:

To start with, what's scary about the original Alien beast? Well, it grows from a tiny worm to bigger than a bus (I exaggerate, but...) in an obscenely short time. It's has a thrusting, punching mouth. Images of the child (that's just errupted from your stomach) growing up and becoming the male, as well as the phallus becoming errect.

Okay, that's the basic creature. Now look at Ripley. In trad sci-fi, she'd be a damsel in distress. Not so. She's the survivor, the killer, the warrior in these films. She's forced out of the female stereotype, she has to leave behind her "femininity".

But then she's confronted with a child in Aliens, a child she has to save, protect from the Alien monsters. She is forced to come back to terms with femininity.

Then we see the Alien's mother: what we thought was our protagonist's unique quality, humanity's unique quality, life giving, is shared by the biggest life taker of them all.

In a sense, in Alien(s), we see almost the full spectrum of archetypes: horrific female Queen, horrific female ship, horrific male warriors, but also heroic female Ripley. The only thing we don't often see is a strong, surviving human male character. They often turn out to be monsters in their own way (e.g. the android, or the doctor).

It's a film laced with quite probably intentional psychological elements.

Giger is quite happy to admit that his designs are sexual in nature, which I doubt the 50s prop workers would be. As such, it's harder to apply the "Erotic Fear as a subconcious interloper" idea to these films because it's very much staring us in the face. But, if we're to ask what the Alien queen represents, I'd say it's not so much the monstrousness of the female, it's the unexpected (by the male) femininity of the monstrous.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:30 / 05.05.05
I should have gone into more detail, but the death star is seen as the male in this context because it's part of The Empire

This pretty much sums up the problem I have with this kind of intellectual masturbation. Its fun, of course, as all good masturbation should be and it is quite amusing to read but ultimately rather limited. That is, starting from the position that violence and domination are male, while life, passivity and otherness are female you are hardly gaining insights by asserting that violence is a male act against a female. Its just a reiteration of what you started with, isn't it?

The Death Star is an excellent example here. While drawing great significance when we see a violent act associated with any object longer than it is wide, there is still enough wiggle room to save the thesis when we can't manage to crawl over that bar. I can't imagine that there are any problems one couldn't "analyse" in this way. But, largely, that is because I don't think very much analysis is being done.

Good for a laugh, though.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:24 / 06.05.05
This pretty much sums up the problem I have with this kind of intellectual masturbation.

I'm not small minded enough to take offence at your use of the word "masturbation" to describe this- I find it quite interesting actually- but it does seem a little flippant. Could you unpack a little more?

Does it mean that you're saying I'm sitting here pleasuring myself by thinking how clever I am to have noticed this stuff? I would understand that view, but the purpose of me starting this thread wasn't to say "look at me and how clever I am and nurse my ego".

As far as I can see, there is a group of people involved here, not just me, and many seem to be gaining something from the discussion, or at least being amused.

...hardly gaining insights by asserting that violence is a male act against a female. Its just a reiteration of what you started with, isn't it?

What did I start with, though? I started with a knowledge of history and a reading of psychology, and the assertions in the first post are what I came up with as an end product of the two. I don't claim that they're an insight, I just thought they'd be interesting.

Interestingly, you compasre this discussion with an act of masturbation (which it isn't...it's a discussion), whilst simultaneously criticising me for comparing the history of a nation state with violent intercourse (which it's not, it's the history of a nation state).
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:46 / 06.05.05
I think it's the fact that it's slightly pointless. You're the first person I've seen that's tried to claim the Aliens ouvre as being all about masculinity, it seems that whenever anything that you've classified or, by your standards, as female does something which steps outside of what you define as the taxonomy of 'femaleness' it becomes male, but nothing in the taxonomy of 'maleness' can escape and become female (I'm probably misusing 'taxonomy' here). So it doesn't matter that we're sending probes to Mars to find out whether the planet can sustain life because it comes from a phallocentric male desire to explore using phallic rockets (never mind that I've never seen a penis that looks like the Apollo rocket, maybe I'm not going to the right gay bars).
 
 
odd jest on horn
13:17 / 06.05.05
I.e. you seem to be falling under the spell of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It's a bit like reading Terrence McKenna's matching of his timewave model with history. But amusing and insightful nonetheless.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
00:05 / 13.05.05
How about this: Since the Death Star exhibits a lot of those definite "female" physical characteristics, perhaps the use of it by the people in the Empire represents a sort of domination of the ovum? I mean, the Death Star is all big and fucking scary and destructive, and that fits into the idea of fear. When you look at how Luke blows the damnned thing up, he basically ejaculates into it. In that sense, the underlying message is that the ovum is big, scary, and has to be destroyed through the sexual conquest. That smells like erotic fear to me.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:02 / 13.05.05
...represents a sort of domination of the ovum?

Reckon that's about right, alejandro- I think maybe that fits better than my simpler version above.

So it doesn't matter that we're sending probes to Mars to find out whether the planet can sustain life...

Right, yes, but you're saying there's absolutely no nationalistic/competitive factor in there at all? I rather doubt that. These new Mars missions are generally accepted to be an American attempt to appear superior to the Chinese/command the respect of Europe.

never mind that I've never seen a penis that looks like the Apollo rocket, maybe I'm not going to the right gay bars.

No, of course penises and rockets do not look exactly the same, and if I didn't know better I'd suggest that you were being a little facetious here. The word "symbolises" or "resembles" does not mean "looks exactly the same as". The appollo rocket was a long, slightly tapering cylinder moving with great speed and energy, which resembles the penis in use by the male, or at least the typical image to which this penis should aspire to.

by your standards, as female

I'm not talking about my standards/identity systems, I'm attempting to make sense of the history of a group of people using images from their society.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:03 / 13.05.05
...represents a sort of domination of the ovum?

Reckon that's about right, alejandro- I think maybe that fits better than my simpler version above.

So it doesn't matter that we're sending probes to Mars to find out whether the planet can sustain life...

Right, yes, but you're saying there's absolutely no nationalistic/competitive factor in there at all? I rather doubt that. These new Mars missions are generally accepted to be an American attempt to appear superior to the Chinese/command the respect of Europe.

never mind that I've never seen a penis that looks like the Apollo rocket, maybe I'm not going to the right gay bars.

No, of course penises and rockets do not look exactly the same, and if I didn't know better I'd suggest that you were being a little facetious here. The word "symbolises" or "resembles" does not mean "looks exactly the same as". The appollo rocket was a long, slightly tapering cylinder moving with great speed and energy, which resembles the penis in use by the male, or at least the typical image to which this penis should aspire to.

by your standards, as female

I'm not talking about my standards/identity systems, I'm attempting to make sense of the history of a group of people using images from their society.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
19:47 / 13.05.05
But with the rockets, it is fun to extend the sexual metaphor and say that when the apollo capsule broke off of the rocket, it was like taking a big money shot at the moon.

Man, this shit is easy when you are a teenage boy...
 
 
LykeX
14:48 / 22.05.05
I'd like to pop my head in and make a few comments that came up while reading this thread.

The Death Star is in fact very angular and displays prominent weaponry, but only if you get close to it. From afar, it looks round and the weapons are invisible, but if you remember A New Hope, you see that once the fighters get close, it is indeed very mechanical and edgy, and the guntowers erupt from the surface better than any fallus.
I would say that the Death Star does not represent a domination of the female, but an attempt on behalf of the male to make the female redundant by imitating it and trying to replace it.
The Death Star is a man's attempt to seize the power of women.

Regarding Aliens, they are obviously female, probably representing the dangerous, sexually aggressive female, as opposed to Ripley's mother-bear-defending-her-children.
The whole thing seems to be a huge horror-fantasy wherein men are nothing but cannonfodder. It is caused by a general fear of women; even the protective mother is potentially destructive if you cross her. A common theme for all four movies is a man somehow trying to betray Ripley and gain control over the aliens. These men invariably end up dead.
Regarding the subject of this thread, you could say that the entire alien quadrology (?) is about how men can never hope to truly control women.

Last bit, thinking about Ripley, I couldn't help but draw a connection to Terminator, where we also have a woman, who traditionally should be in the role of the damsel in distress, and again, she breaks out of this role, not relying on her male help, but getting proactive.
Of course, Terminatot is otherwise different, since the Terminator himself is obviously the epitome of male power.

On a larger scale, I would say that violence and force are not necessarily male qualities, only if they are used for domination and control. Using violence to protect others is a definite feminine quality, as I've argued above. Even the mother alien is using violence as a way to protect and expand her family.

I feel myself going incoherent, so I'll stop while I'm ahead.
 
  
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