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Look what I can do!

 
  

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rakker
04:21 / 27.04.05
What sort of concrete results do you guys feel/know you've had from practising magic, other than "a nice feeling in my tummy", or "voices in my head." By concrete I mean experimentally measured and measurable, like writing down intents and checking to see how many "hits" you have. Or is magic inherently vague and impossible to pin down in such a way?
 
 
Charlie's Horse
05:39 / 27.04.05
A good question, especially for a place with a number of 'results first' practitioners running about, myself included.

Lessee - for me:

Coming up clean on a batter of tests for STDs (that was fun)
Getting my cat to crap in the litterbox (as opposed to the kitchen)
Helping a friend do better on his LSAT
Finding a buddy a girlfriend, a completely new thing in his 20 years
Gaining confidence - the ability to talk to strangers, make 'em laugh, get to know them
Getting into a ballroom dance performance group (did I say confidence?)
Finding three jobs for two people
Helping two people keep their jobs (5 hours late for work)
Speeding recovery from illness
Divination relating to people - asking about a friend's significant other and getting The Devil card, all too appropriately. Getting the Three of Pentacles reversed on a day that no work was done. Courage reversed for the girl who never called back.
Getting a ton of A's this semester

So, no, magic isn't necessary vague or vapid. It isn't some funny feeling in my tummy - it's the smoldering of my bones, the soul's hoarfrost, and that job application that finally cleared.

So why do you want to know? Testing the waters, seeing if it's worth a shot? Are you asking for something that is irrefutably a result of magic and not, say, coincidence or deliberate action? I mean, I did a nine-night working for a friend to find him a goodly job, and he found one. But if he had sat on his couch, watching television and relying solely upon my candle-burning for help, I've little doubt that he'd have a crap job, if any job at all. So is the job an 'irrefutable' example of magic at work? No. Do I keep on keeping on with it? Of course. To me, it's not a matter of proof so much as experience and belief. Of course, in the beginning it was definitely a matter of proof. To an extent it always is, though time and practice help you slip that question for more interesting (and answerable) ones.

I kinda doubt you want irrefutable evidence, or a thread of all of us piling on our recent accomplishments. Have you tried anything lately? Has it turned out alright, or were the planets out of alignment? Damn things just keep moving around on ya.

This is interesting. I wonder what would come out if we asked for serious 'misses' in the past. Gods, I've got some of those.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
05:41 / 27.04.05
Just saw your other thread, which answered all my questions. Ah well. Enjoy my laundry list of why I can pat myself on the back until I'm in traction.
 
 
rakker
11:32 / 27.04.05
I've been fascinated by the stuff for three years, and done a lot of reading and quite a few half-hearted experiments/rituals. In the periods when I've done a lot of sigilization, thinking about magick, writing down dreams, some jabs at meditation, etc, there seemed to be a sort of cropping up of meaningful coincidence, synchronicities and general weirdness (crazy lady approaching me for no particular reason in the cafeteria talking about the world ending in 2012, the watch being 23:23 when I pick it out of my pocket to demonstrate synchronicities, ecstatic experiences during meditation, and, well, quite a lot of the sigils "actually working" (maybe)) .

It may well be due to the help of magic (especially sigils) that I secured a couple of nice jobs, shagged a lot, healed my aunt's cancer, got to India for a nickle (right now I'm in an Internet cafe in Varanasi with a Ganesh-clock on the wall), achieved a somewhat greater degree of harmony (v. recently), and... stuff.

It may also be due to being qualified, getting older, coincidence, etc.

Divinations I've done and had done for me seem to have given "meaningful" results for the most part (still remaining so vague that they're mostly useless for anything except entertainment, though). I've also changed my personality a bit, or at least my range of behavioural possibilities (becoming more extroverted, having an easier time socially and with women, becoming a bit less self-centred etc) both aided by sigilization and conscious attempts at change.

Right now I'm in a bit of a magical rut.. I don't think I've done anything in the way of magick since last autumn, when I tried to create a servitor with a material base whose purpose was to "make me happy." Ha-ha. I've been anything but happy since then. Relationship in the toilet, a couple of disastrous failures at work (won't get into details), depression, not-being-happy-with-neither-studies-nor-job-nor-chosen-career. I guess I haven't really done anything for/with the "servitor" since his creation though, so I might have myself to blame (if one is to believe the recipes.). I have a fair mind to smash the ugly fucking thing when I get back home. As of this being written, though, I have actually been able to resolve a few issues in my head (trite insights of the type: "You don't have to pursue a carreer you hate and feel destroys your soul, you don't have to compare yourself with others, you don't have to compete on arenas which you detest, you realy do have almost unlimited options & possibilities, why not enjoy them", etc. Truths that any self-help-book will inform you of for the cover price, but that isn't really of much use until you realize them by yourself the "hard way"...)

Why am I asking about concrete results? One reason is the thing I mention in the other thread. I have a certain fear that magic might become sort of a sleeping-pillow or a way of fooling yourself. Instead of isolating goals, finding rational and material (both being key words in this context, I think) strategies for achieving them, I fear I might fall into a wanky, self-absorbed state of sigilizing and ritualizing and seeing quasi-meaningful coincidences where there mightn't be any and blaming the "servitor" instead of my own laziness/personality/lack of motivation/whatnot. If you know what I mean.

The other is plain old curiosity. I've been lurking on this forum for the three years I've been "practising" (if one can call it that), and feel that there is a certain degree of... abstractness (? I don't know if that's a word you can use) prevailing over "concreteness" here. What I described as "feeling it in my tummy" or "hearing it in my head" as opposed to stuff that can be measured and weighed and written down. I don't want to walk the path of a hobby-schizophrenic. I wish to interact more fully with reality, fight my inertia, become a more rounded individual, correct a few personality flaws (preferably becoming a bit more caring and compassionate in the process), figuring out a sort of meaning to my existence and pursuing this meaning in some reasonable manner. I'm uncertain as to whether magic is a path that will take me closer to or further from these goals.

An incidentally, it would be interesting to know how you set about achieving the goals you mentioned, and how or why you think magic had an effect on your achieving them.

All the best!
 
 
illmatic
13:15 / 27.04.05
I fear I might fall into a wanky, self-absorbed state of sigilizing and ritualizing and seeing quasi-meaningful coincidences where there mightn't be any and blaming the "servitor" instead of my own laziness/personality/lack of motivation/whatnot. If you know what I mean.

I do indeed know what you mean. In my own case, I found that I was falling into a state of looking for "opportunities to do magick" just interacting with my circumstances as appropriate. If someone fell over and broke their leg in front of me, I'd think of as an opportunity to practice my healing rather than help them up or call an ambulance. Not that bad actually, but that sort of thinking... it felt "incongruent" to me, so I gave it up (kind of). I'm still fascinated with sigils though, 'cos I love Austin Spare's work so much so maybe I'll go back and do some more sometime. I think the whole "giving up" part of Spare's work militates against forming this kind of ego attachment to the work anyway.

It may well be due to the help of magic (especially sigils) that I secured a couple of nice jobs, shagged a lot, healed my aunt's cancer, got to India for a nickle (right now I'm in an Internet cafe in Varanasi with a Ganesh-clock on the wall), achieved a somewhat greater degree of harmony (v. recently), and... stuff.

It may also be due to being qualified, getting older, coincidence, etc.


As to this, well I think that one is, for a while, always going to be wondering whether it "works" or if you're tricking yourself etc. particulary with sorcery. I think it's always going to be a bugbear with certain events - though at other times you might find that you just "know". I do find the whole process of how meaning is constructed out of magical events completely fascinating. The same process works the other way around as well, look at how ultra-rationalists and skeptics will jump through any amount of hoops to avoid the fact than anything might be happening.

Having said that, I think what you're doing - that is, thinking critically about your own experiences, and not accepting easy answers is exactly what you should be doing with magick. And even if sigils/servitors don't cut it for you, there's enough interesting and worthwhile techniques to be found under the lable of "the occult" which will help you acheive the goals you've defined, and might open up other routes to self-awarenes and change.
 
 
Quantum
13:22 / 27.04.05
"Actual, material results from practising the occult arts"
I'm a professional Tarot reader (part-time) and a couple of times a week people give me money to divine the future for them. Fairly concrete results, especially when it's a recommendation from a past querent.
 
 
Vadrice
01:59 / 28.04.05
My opinion on the subject of abstraction:

It's perspective. I'm a generally lazy person, so if I can enjoy putting forth the effort to look at a problem in multiple ways, it's for the best.

But as far as magic is concerned, there's nothing like walking into a bar and knowing that there's eyeliner scrawled all over your chest under your shirt in an elaboratly worked "people like me" sigil to make you feel like the cat's pajamas.

I love it when people offer to buy me drinks, and I can turn them down for the reason of not taking advantage of people bespelled by my majesty.

Granted, that only happened for the first time five minutes ago (really, all bars should have free wi-fi) but let me tell you... it's delicious.
 
 
penitentvandal
07:43 / 28.04.05
Hmmm, concrete results...

Well, in the past nine years, I've launched sigils to get jobs, get gigs, get two books of my poetry published, ruin the livelihood of one of my enemies, get laid, and pass exams; I've ran invocations to make me more aggressive, sexier, and calmer (though not at the same time); and I've ran illuminations which cured me of a lifelong fear of dogs, and my adolescent bulimia. This is just a random sample from the top of my head.Yes, it could all be 'coincidence' but it is a rather odd coincidence that, whenever I do a sigil for something, the thing happens...
 
 
Chiropteran
13:31 / 28.04.05
I've ran invocations to make me more aggressive, sexier, and calmer (though not at the same time)

Oh, please do them all at the same time. That'd be neat. That'd be James Bond.

Concrete results...

Less magic and more devotional, but when I was in a regular working relationship with Papa Legba (the lord of the crossroads, keeper of the gate, opener of the way), there was a distinct difference in how things went depending on whether I kept up my service properly or not. When Legba was happy, his gifts were abundant - unexpected opportunities, fortuitous meetings, always enough money at just the right times, etc. (and always with that little sparkle of synchronicity that marks the lwa's doings). When I slacked off (and he gave me some leeway - I'm talking about when I just got lazy, or took him for granted), he let me know... My car broke down or ran out of gas very suddenly, important emails and voice messages disappeared, my bank account hemorrhaged money, payments passed shutoff notices in the mail... Then, when I got my act together, the problems would resolve quickly and cleanly. (We're on hiatus for the time being, while I internalize some new magical influences, and since we seem to have an understanding about this, there are no apparent ill-effects.)

For my own work, let's see... My money spells have nearly always worked (the times they didn't were also the times I was stiffing Legba, which figures). I didn't get rich, mind you (my anarcho-ambivalent feelings about money and finance get in the way), but my workings always gave me just enough to do what I needed to do (in handy ways like bank errors not processing debits until after I've deposited checks, or last-minute extensions on payments. One time, two of my students decided, "for no apparent reason," to pay me a week early for the following month, allowing me to prevent a utility shut-off).

I've done some healing work with extremely dramatic results, and my court case work has gotten things dismissed, too.

It's been a while since I've really gotten down with some gritty results magic, though - I've been all Hermetic workout for a while. As the weather continues to warm, though, I'm sure that'll change (it always does).
 
 
rising and revolving
14:40 / 28.04.05
Oooh, tell us about your Hermetic workouts, Lep. In a new thread, if need be.

As for results, I've got an uncanny knack of getting the things I think I want but don't really. Almost without fail. So I've had crazy job offers involving tonnes of cash and unlimted freedom, over which I've chosen to stay here with the restriction I have - basically, I tend to get results when I need them to whack my priorities into shape.

Mind you, when I'm working for the stuff I really *do* need, then that works a treat. I've cured serious addiction, travelled the planet, enmeshed myself in a field that many would kill to be in, somehow lived for four months in a foreign country with no income, no legal status, no cash, and no prospects ... and stuff, you know.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:47 / 28.04.05
[Sandalphon: nothing big, really - LBRP, beginning to study Qabalah and astrology, stuff like that. But it is a very different headspace than my hoodoo and Vodou work, so I've made an effort to be temporarily exclusive while I immerse myself in the new stuff for a bit.]
 
 
electric monk
15:47 / 28.04.05
My most tangible result has been a near total cessation of smoking (from a pack a day to two ciggies in six months). This came out of an invocation of and blood offering to Attis. It was it MUCH easier to flush the smokes than I expected it to be. Now I find myself craving a walk outside when I once would have craved a cigarette.
 
 
Chiropteran
15:58 / 28.04.05
[rot]
Now I find myself craving a walk outside when I once would have craved a cigarette.

Both of which could give you trouble on an airplane.
[/rot]
 
 
electric monk
19:02 / 28.04.05
[further rot]

Not if this "unassisted flight" sigil works!

[jumps off roof of house and flaps arms]

{/further rot]
 
 
toughest, fastest, fatest
16:11 / 08.11.05
This is an interesting thread, and worthy of a bump to be sure.
The only magic I seriously use is sigilisation, and then only infrequently. But it has helped me get money, a job, and sex when I've needed it. At least it appears to have, at the very least it gives you more self confidence if you believe it's helping, which therefore helps with your goals. Possibly.

Still the 10k I got when seriously broke has got to be more than coincidence...
 
 
electric monk
16:38 / 08.11.05
Oh holy fucking shit.

Was just thinking about this thread today, RE: My simultaneous failure to stay off cigarettes and a cessation of ongoing relationship with Attis. Even the stone I carried as a physical reminder of the working has lost it's charge. Sometimes, I truly suck.

But

3 weeks ago, Hurricane Wilma blew thru. I had not boarded up the house, assuming that Wilma would be a not-too-strong Category 1. Wrong. Wilma retained strength (Cat 2, possibly 3) traveling West to East across the Florida Panhandle, and my wife and I spent the scariest 5 hours of our lives kicking ourselves for not shuttering up. Debris was hitting the house with wicked force and knocking stuff off the walls, and it felt like only a matter of time before something came thru a window (which, in a hurricane, is BAD NEWS. Once the winds come inside, you can pretty much say goodbye to your roof). In my desperation, I visualized a "plasma ball" all around the house. Translucent swirling purples and whites thrumming with energy, something akin to what I feel surrounding me at the completion of an LIRP. It was all I could do, other than hold my wife and son close to me. Occassionally, I would repeat a mantra to myself.

This house is safe
And we are safe
And we are safe as houses


After the storm, I went out to survey the damage. It wasn't (and remains) not good. Our landscaping is fucked and the roof lost a lot of shingles, leaving gaps and holes open to the sky (since patched and awaiting a roofing contractor for repair). But tangible results? Hell yes. The large branches that snapped off the ficas tree just outside our front door landed less than a foot from my son's room and our room. The dying tree in the front yard dropped a HUGE branch within inches of my car, but didn't leave a scratch. A 4'x8' plywood sheet that flew across four lanes of traffic + median and gave the powerlines a miss came down about 4 feet from our living room window. We didn't even see it come in the yard. The six 1" thick pine branches that hit our sliding glass door didn't even crack it.

Sometimes, I'm purty damn good.
 
 
Earlier than I thought
15:45 / 20.11.05
Relating to some of the above: as a rank amateur who knows nowt, I was mildly alarmed to find Legba turning up in my dreams quite regularly, since I'd never really even considered working with the Lwa. I'm still uncertain and not doing anything until I know a lot more, but I thought it only wise to leave him some stuff at a crossroads with a handy tree/bench urbanspace altar thing going on.

All of which was immediately followed by a chain of manic coincidence which led to one of the best days of my life. God knows where I go from here, but as far as results go, this beat anything so far. The Maya Deren book is on its way...
 
 
Rev. Jesse
03:19 / 21.11.05
The spirits find my keys when I lose them. Very helpful.

Divination has been very helpful as well.
 
 
Morpheus
21:00 / 12.12.05
I do way too much divination, ground my energy with Tai Chi and sometimes work with the Lwa. Fucking around with Goetia is no joke.
After figureing out that a young girl that I loved was in a very dangerous place that would consume her, I decided to summon a spirit from goetia to do the dirty work. The ritual was done in a tree house in a pepper tree and I also worked with Legba at this major haunted crossroad to summon it. The Hollywood bowl/Cahuenga pass. It is the site of a major battle that took many indian lives. Legba is always my good pal and delivered the spirit easily. These spirits lie and want major payment.
The spirit told me that she would not be killed, but demanded my suicide in payment. I offered a song to be sung at a public place instead. I also demanded that the spirit not take my mate by causeing her to commit suicide.
I played that night at an open mic and channeled the hurtful entity and almost got in a brawl with the sound man. Then I went home. That night my neighbor Cynthia, who was my roomates ex-girlfriend shot herself in the face.
She was a rather famous photographer in L.A. and had been threatening my roomate with a lawsuit on battery and he was looking at 5 years for the charge...his court case was a week away. Good for him I guess.
My girlfreind was AWOL for about 2 weeks before I did the working and was playing Bonnie and Clyde with some real assholes and after some investigation into the matter I found out that she had been beaten so badly by him that she needed to get some surgery on her face...she also got some new tits that she wanted.
I did some more work with the Loa to bring her back to me and sure as shit she showed up out of nowhere.
The goetia demons showed up about a month later and drove everyone in the house insane. One girl jumped out of a window screaming that demons were everywhere and that I had summoned them. Another guy in the house also saw ghosts and dead people everywhere in the house and ended up in a near by church naked where he had fought off police who tried to drag him out and broke a few fingers doing it.
Many more things happened that I could get into... but in the end all I can say is if you have any sort of ability...don't fuck with goetia.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:38 / 13.12.05
Well done, all involved.
 
 
Seth
09:24 / 13.12.05
Best. Post. Ever.

I love the way it's posted at precisely midnight.

In other news, by best mahjikal result was the invocation to Russ Meyer I performed to increase the size of my girlfriend's boobies.

I had to drive an articulated lorry into Scotland Yard, loaded with plastic explosives, to build up the necessary charge. At the last minute I disappeared into the astral plane, surviving the carnage. Mysteriously this was all covered up in the news.

Imagine my surprise when I found out that my girlfriend's new breasts were actually robot alligators! They consumed all my enemies, and then we got naked in a graveyard with some drugs and painted our bodies with children's guts.

I then rescued seventeen thousand old folks from a burning football stadium, but then sacrificed them in a ritual on the grounds that they all would have died anyway. Their screams can be heard on the Hunting Lodge album, if you play it backwards and gah muh bleh hahahahaha
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:35 / 13.12.05
Well, it's a good thing Morph grounds his energy with Tai Chi or we'd all be in trouble, eh?
 
 
Earlier than I thought
16:48 / 13.12.05
- I'm going to try and invoke Russ Meyer tonight. It'll be worth it for the comedy sound effects alone.
 
 
agent darkbootie
17:17 / 13.12.05
I requested a spirit to help me with money, and found him using "shamanic journey" techniques. I've since been able to use him to get myself a decently paying job, after I got a series of unexpected freelance gigs that kept me afloat during some tough times, so I'm pretty proud of that.

I'm still not real comfortable with invocation and the like, and generally just cobble together my own rituals after clearing things out with the Lesser Pentagram banishing.

Sigils have been a mixed bag for me. How do you all approach 'em?

Oh, and I'm still looking for the most effective "get laid" incantation I can find.
 
 
Quantum
13:39 / 14.12.05
the most effective "get laid" incantation I can find

"Hello" is a good one, in the right place at the right time (probably not up a pepper tree) or else "I am very rich" if that fails.

I am completely taken aback by Morpheus' post. I don't even have the mental resources to post something cutting, I can only gasp in shock and awe and ask "What were the actual, material results you're talking about, Morph?"
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:22 / 14.12.05
I think I might have ensured that my partener got a permanent job in Barcelona, and that he and I can thus stay in Spain.

However this would also explain the fact that in the months leading up to getting the perm position, he got turned down for every single other job he went for, creating a loooong period of fear, doubt, uncertainty and stress for the pair of us.

%Yay me.%
 
 
kowalski
16:26 / 14.12.05
I have a strange working relationship with the planet Mars and crane flies. When I need a bus at night and Mars is visible, I can perform a sort of tactical probability hack if I don't know what time it is and the time the bus is scheduled to arrive or roll past. By occulting Mars with a local urban object (telephone line strung across the road, light pole, etc.) and offering a brief glossalic chant, a bus appears immediately without fail.

Crane flies? Well, nearby planets look like glowing crane flies when you squint your eyes, legs and wings splayed out in all directions as if the night sky was the glass of a bus shelter or the upper corner of a room. And it helps when I'm doing this to visualize crane flies riding on my shoulders or on my head, or to imagine the imprints of their previous presence on nearby lights or glass or vegetation.

I've never done any formal work, just improvised interactions like this. Another instance would be connecting with the physical surface of the roadway and the dusty debris along the curb to ask for a cab to appear, and having it roll up right behind us while I was doing this.
 
 
Digital Hermes
17:24 / 14.12.05
Reading the thread summary got me thinking. Most everybody here (with the exception of Morpheus) has been talking about things that came after doing a working or supplicating a loa or somesuch. Manipulating synchronicity. Is there any actual, material results from the occult in terms of making things burst into flame or what have you, manipulation of energy as well as information patterns? Does magic even work that way, outside of fiction and role-playing games? This possible element of the occult is the only one I'm still sceptical about. (Though I don't count it out entirely.)

Regarding Morpheus' post: Either you're having a joke with us all, or you're describing the life and lifestyle you either strive for or imagine having. Maybe this is too harsh, and I'll apologize for the offense if given, but I don't buy it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:35 / 14.12.05
He's roleplaying a Malkavian.
 
 
Digital Hermes
17:39 / 14.12.05
{Hand's clamped over mouth to stifle a guffaw, bothering the co-workers around him.}
 
 
Earlier than I thought
19:04 / 14.12.05
Well, nothing's ever caught fire...but whenever I'm particularly "into it", lightbulbs blow left and right. My sister on the other hand! Once hexed her boyfriend right there in Burger King (yeah, I know). His milkshake exloded instantly, with predictably unpleasant results for a guy with long hair.
Hey, it's not Goetia demons. But its got slapstick and fast food. What do you people want?
 
 
Digital Hermes
19:38 / 14.12.05
You've reminded me of something... there have been angry moments, moments of intense focus or otherwise intense feelings, and I'll blow a new lightbulb simply by turning it on. At one point, the light not only blew, but flew out of the ceiling fan that it was set in. Not in the midst of any working or direct magical practice, but perhaps considered a material result of energy manipulation. (Though more instinctual than concious in ability.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:56 / 14.12.05
I tend to kill timepieces; they get hairline cracks or broken springs or otherwise go wrong. I can also have a bad effect on macinery if I come to resent it: in one of my many jobs I worked as a machine-minder in a hinge factory*, and one of the machines and I simply failed to get on. It was a nasty sort of beast, spitting coolant fluid over me all the time until I was thoroughly soaked with the greasy, itchy stuff. Also, the supervisor for that part of the floor would not leave me alone and constantly found fault with my work, even going so far as to make me take off my protective gloves so I could work faster (which meant my hands got cut to ribbons with swarf). The drill bits kept breaking every time I used it--not for any reason, they would just shatter spontaneously. One day I had a bonanza run, with four drill bits breaking one after the other; the factory ran out of drill-bits and had to move me to another machine until more could be obtained.

I'm not sure I'd call it a result though.


*When I have mentioned this in the past, people have thought I was making a very tasteless and self-pitying joke about Schindler's List. I am in fact talking about a factory. Where I worked. That made hinges.
 
 
Quantum
09:47 / 15.12.05
Is there any actual, material results from the occult in terms of making things burst into flame or what have you, manipulation of energy as well as information patterns?

You should see my Zippo spell, reliably causes fire every time, using only the spell ingredients Flint, Wheel, Wick and Petrol.
More seriously, a friend of mine had a stock response to uppity ceremonial magicians in RPGs (hello Order of Hermes)- "What's the point of spending five years learning to ignite a candle with an occult ritual when a box of matches is 10p?"

I personally think it's possible to achieve dramatic effects when necessary, but it's almost never necessary. Magic is in some ways like water, finding the easiest path to the result, and blatantly violating the laws of physics seems to be quite rare. If exploding lightbulbs and summoning buses* isn't enough for you, what would be? Conjuring a fireball in one's hand? I'm afraid that is the domain of RPGs and film, real magic isn't like that. Dammit.

*my favoured bus summoning ritual is rolling a cigarette, as you light it from your eldritch flaming hand a bus always comes. In a hurry "Hathaway send a bus!" works well too.
 
 
illmatic
10:43 / 15.12.05
Is there any actual, material results from the occult in terms of making things burst into flame or what have you, manipulation of energy

A few people have told me they've experienced poltergist type effects or the sudden appearence of objects from nowhere etc. Not experienced this myself.

I conclude:

a) Why not? if I accept that a funny pack of playing cards are sending me meesages - and really beleve it - then casuality doesn't describe everything, so who knows what's possible? My favourite ridiculous grandiose example is Pete Caroll's statement that, if magick works, it should be possible (if perhaps not desirable) to teleport the moon into another solar system. Why not, indeed?

b) Such experiences lose in the retelling. Someone could tell me the most weird and improbable thing has happened to them but, until it happens to me, they'll alsways be some nagging disbelief. I'll just have to wait until it happens to me (if ever) and stay with my practice in the meantime.
 
  

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