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Belief and Homosexuality

 
 
rising and revolving
19:39 / 19.04.05
So : Several factors seem to collide here, and I'm going to attempt to pull the threads of them out as well as I'm able. Which may not be very well at all. We'll see.

Firstly, that one of the oft-used arguments for the eradication of discrimination regarding homosexuality is that it, like race and sex, is not a 'preference' it's a hardwired part of a persons being. This is supported by the discovery of a genetic sequence with a seeming relation to male homosexuality - the "Gay Gene".

Secondly, that there has been a recent(ish) discovery (by the same fellow) of a "God Gene".

Thirdly, that is seems reasonable to equate the practice of religion and the practice of homosexuality under these circumstances, in regards to the level of "choice" involved. Sure, one doesn't have to choose to join a religion (and nor do they have to choose any specific religious persuasion) but it would seem that there's probably a compulsion towards religious activity.

Which would potentially lead down a path of suggesting religion and sexuality would enjoy similar levels of respect and protection. Certainly amongst my social group, religion is the focus of contempt while sexuality enjoys a somewhat sacred-cow status. I'm not extending that to anyone elses social sphere, but does it suggest an element of hypocrisy there, or is it rather that there is no reasonable comparison between the two.

If so, why? If not, why not?

And, if the basic arguement against discrimination isn't built around a concept of choice (i.e., you shouldn't be discriminated against regarding things you have no choice about) then what is it built around? And why would race, religion, sex, and sexuality be special cases, when most everything else is not?
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
19:46 / 19.04.05
Well, the "God Module" within the brain does not steer one towards any religion, it merely gives one a desire, or need, for loony mysticism. I think one could choose any religion they want and leave the bigotry out of everything.
 
 
rising and revolving
19:49 / 19.04.05
Well, yeah. I said that.

Nonetheless, you could say the same about the homosexual gene. It doesn't make you have sex with other men, it just makes you want to. While I don't think there's a direct correlation between these two genetic predilictions, I do think they're related.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
19:54 / 19.04.05
In my mind, religion and sexuality share the same level of protection. Unthinking hatered of something you are scared of doesn't. Unfortunately, that usually goes along with fundamentalism.
 
 
grant
20:27 / 19.04.05
Define "loony mysticism."
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
20:42 / 19.04.05
A lame attempt at a joke, really. I try not to call anyone's religion loony mysticism, even if they believe that a great lavender baboon ass flies about the sky and poops out blessings. A great many of the people I speak to seem to view all religion as such, so I was playing to that.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
21:00 / 19.04.05
OK, speaking as a straight atheist, I can tell you the main difference between sexuality and religion: I do not remember a homosexual ever telling me that I would suffer and eternity of torments for not living as in the same way as them. And I don't think it is just the ultra-orthodox religious types that feel that way. From growing up in a christian household I know that the church teaches that anyone who does not love god, and his son jesus, are going to hell. If you believe that how can you not want to save those around you from their sinful ways? I'm every bit as bad. I will tell anyone who wishes to engage me in the discussion that organised religion of any stripe is a lie and should be abandoned.

The point that I am trying to make is that any religious belief, that is to say Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist (I don't know enought about Hinduism or Buddism so I will not comment) is, by its very nature, expansionist. By this I mean that someone who genuinely believes whatever it is that they believe, rather than those that just give a passing nod to a faith, will always try to save, that is to say convert, those around them, because the price of the failure to do so is just too high.This is simply not true of sexuality, and, personally, I see this as a fundemental division between the two. A 'live and let live' policy can work and so can (and I feel should) be enshrined in law. For the reason that I have highlighted above the same is not true of religious belief. Without the right to open criticism of religion, debate would be impossible, and so such criticisms must be allowed.
 
 
Ganesh
21:50 / 19.04.05
Firstly, that one of the oft-used arguments for the eradication of discrimination regarding homosexuality is that it, like race and sex, is not a 'preference' it's a hardwired part of a persons being. This is supported by the discovery of a genetic sequence with a seeming relation to male homosexuality - the "Gay Gene".

Secondly, that there has been a recent(ish) discovery (by the same fellow) of a "God Gene".


If you're talking about Dean Hamer's work, both 'discoveries' have been challenged on grounds of dodgy methodology, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Secondly, it's worth pointing out that "hard-wired" does not necessarily map directly onto "genes". In the case of homosexuality, there's a wealth of birth-order studies which suggest that pre-natal hormones may have a more formative influence in terms of foetal brain development; specifically, in males, there's a well-replicated association between likelihood of homosexual orientation and number of older brothers.

Point being, it ain't simply a case of genetics versus environment. In the case of homosexuality, there's evidence of other types of "hard-wiring". As far as I'm aware (and I'm not as well up on the God Gene research as I am on the gay stuff), this is not the case with religiosity.

Thirdly, that is seems reasonable to equate the practice of religion and the practice of homosexuality under these circumstances, in regards to the level of "choice" involved. Sure, one doesn't have to choose to join a religion (and nor do they have to choose any specific religious persuasion) but it would seem that there's probably a compulsion towards religious activity.

I'd argue that homosexuality and religiosity are not as readily equated as you suggest, partly because of the birth-order/pre-natal hormone stuff, and partly because there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that, contrary to the claims of the 'ex-gay' movement, sexual orientation is relatively immutable. I've no idea whether there's research on the number of people who, in the course of their lives, change religion - but, anecdotally, I know a great many more people who've successfully altered or abandoned their faith-based belief system than have altered their sexuality.

This suggests to me that there is more 'wiggle room' in religiosity than in homosexuality (or heterosexuality) - even accepting your point that religiosity might not be tied to a specific religion.

Which would potentially lead down a path of suggesting religion and sexuality would enjoy similar levels of respect and protection. Certainly amongst my social group, religion is the focus of contempt while sexuality enjoys a somewhat sacred-cow status. I'm not extending that to anyone elses social sphere, but does it suggest an element of hypocrisy there, or is it rather that there is no reasonable comparison between the two.

In addition to the above, one big difference, as has been mentioned already, is that religious orthodoxies tend, on the whole, to enshrine prejudices against specific subgroups (women, gay people, members of other religious orthodoxies, etc.) and, not infrequently, work to restrict the freedoms of those subgroups. Homosexuality has no centralised orthodoxy and is (usually) non-proselytising.
 
 
Ganesh
22:20 / 19.04.05
Nonetheless, you could say the same about the homosexual gene. It doesn't make you have sex with other men, it just makes you want to. While I don't think there's a direct correlation between these two genetic predilictions, I do think they're related.

Assuming you meant "comparable" rather than "related".

To reiterate: it ain't as straightforward as a "genetic prediliction" in homosexuality, and probably not in religiosity either. That said, I think your comparison still falls down on the grounds that (obviously depending on one's geographical/cultural situation) one theoretically has more choice in terms of expressing one's "hard-wired" religiosity (wide range of belief systems, and the possibility of switching between them) than in expressing one's "hard-wired" homosexuality (do or don't).
 
 
Ganesh
22:22 / 19.04.05
In my mind, religion and sexuality share the same level of protection.

In your mind perhaps, but not under UK law...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:34 / 20.04.05
This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The very fact that we consistently need to find some origin for homosexuality damns and damages our society. It emphasises the idea that homosexuality is in some way inferior and unnatural and frankly that's absurd because at the most basic level we're only talking about sexual attraction. I can't help but think it's like trying to find a gene that states that some people are attracted to pretty eyes and a nice smile. Or hey, I only fancy people I can have a conversation with, is there a gene for that? What about bisexuals, do they choose to fancy genders indiscriminately or are they just slightly blind? Is there an either/or gene? We treat this notion as if the idea that homosexuality might be a choice or genetic or feverish brain chemistry actually means anything but it doesn't and this particular part of homosexual life means nothing for society because it's inconsequential. Society is just desperately trying to find a means to excuse something that was thought of as a bit dodgy until very recently.

Whether people have a natural predisposition to religion is also unimportant. The point is that they still have a series of choices: which religion? Which branch of that religion? And while doing so they're deciding what god actually really thinks or alternatively how far they can compromise between god and society. In my mind that does make religion a little bit defunct and also, oddly enough, totally different from homosexuality. I don't understand what warrants the comparison of sexuality and religion?
 
 
astrojax69
00:56 / 20.04.05
there is some interesting research on the 'god spot', including michael persinger's work, with some links to articles here

as i understand it, the brain apparently has receptors which, when stimulated, give rise to an emotional response expressed in reporting the neural state to be 'religious' - a 'feeling' about god, or some evoked belief in a deity. i am sure that *which* deity is evoked is culturally manufactured, but *that* you have this emotive response is seemingly due to the nodule being stimulated. still doesn't say why the environment stimulates it at another [religious experience] time...

as to homosexuality, that is a different 'instinct', or particular reaction to the existence of that organsism [human] as an innate desire. and the expression of this drive is also somewhat bound up in the culture you find yourself. i don't know if one could *choose* to become homosexual (as opposed to simply choosing to engage in a/several homosexual acts). but i guess one can come round to changing beliefs *about* homosexuals, depending on what information you had previously and are in receipt of now - but this is 'about homosexuality' not about 'being homosexual'...

like nina, i think the two strands of this debate, sexuality and religion, are incommensurable.
 
 
Tom Coates
11:33 / 20.04.05
I think the issue here of 'origins' is kind of misguided, and always has been. If homosexuality is genetic or whatever, then one group can argue that it's a genetic defect or disease or abberation that needs to be eradicated, just as another group can argue that it's natural and appropriate etc. If it's caused by upbringing or environment in some way, then some people would say that makes it something pliable that needs to be rectified while others would say that as long as the people are happy at the end of it, what does it matter.

The core of the issue for me around this area isn't the naturalness or otherwise of homosexuality (or religion), it's a core set of questions: (1) do gay/religious people harm other people, (2) can they spread their gayness/religion to other people and (3) are gay/religious people content to be as they are.

On the whole, it's fairly clear that one person being gay doesn't really affect anyone else, isn't in any way infectious and that there doesn't seem to be any reason why gay people couldn't be happy - except prejudice from other people and potentially that they may be less likely to have children. If the aggregate of gay people in an unprejudiced world viewed their sexuality as a disease or a barrier then it might be worthwhile considering it in such terms, but most gay people view their sexuality (as straight people do) as something core to their personality, that couldn't be any other way. Therefore it's not an issue.

The religious issue is less clear, religion clearly can be taught and spread, and religion can be used as a dogmatic defence against reality and as a way of alienating and creating conflict and intolerance. Religious happiness could be (as I suppose could homosexual happiness) could be viewed as 'false consciousness', although that's less clear.

My point, in a nutshell, is that the use of the term 'choice' in these circumstances might be a good way of characterising things you don't like as evil and bad behaviour. But you don't need to characterise in this way. In fact, medicalisation (the corrolary of innateness and naturalness) allows people to take things they don't like because they're bad behaviour and turn them into diseases which need to be cured.
 
 
rising and revolving
13:05 / 20.04.05
In fact, medicalisation (the corrolary of innateness and naturalness) allows people to take things they don't like because they're bad behaviour and turn them into diseases which need to be cured.

I'm pretty solidly in agreement with this. See also drug addiction and many (but not all) mental illnesses where the logic extends to "this is a disease, and therefore out of my hands and not my fault," - which is all a dangerous path to head down.

On the other hand, when it comes to using it as an arguement to (for example) provide heroin to addicts in a controlled fashion rather than methadone, I'm all in favour of trotting out the 'disease' line, if it makes the complacent reappraise their position. Ultimately, it's not as easy as it might be.
 
 
rising and revolving
13:11 / 20.04.05
The core of the issue for me around this area isn't the naturalness or otherwise of homosexuality (or religion), it's a core set of questions: (1) do gay/religious people harm other people, (2) can they spread their gayness/religion to other people and (3) are gay/religious people content to be as they are.

Further thoughts. I don't think these are the right questions at all. Why should "spreading to other people" be an issue at all, at all?

That aside, to me the question is "Is it ideal to judge an individual on the basis of assumptions you hold regarding the group they belong to?" and the answer is pretty clearly no. If you ask, however, if it is 'reasonable' then then answer becomes 'sometimes' ...

Not getting any clearer, is it?
 
 
rising and revolving
13:13 / 20.04.05
In my mind, religion and sexuality share the same level of protection.

In your mind perhaps, but not under UK law...

Of course, I should have said "ought to share the same level of protection" - I'm aware they don't, under UK, Canadian, Australian or US law. Those being the ones I'm passing familiar with.
 
 
Tom Coates
15:23 / 20.04.05
The issue of spreading homosexuality clearly matters to some people - the main reason being that while they might not have an issue with people being gay and are clear that it doesn't harm them, they would be concerned about whether gay people might make their children gay - or worse have some influence upon themselves. That is to say, it's an irrational concern which is kind of my point - it can't be spread, people aren't unhappy on the whole because they're gay, they don't harm anyone - therefore what possible reason could any society have for trying to control it.

I do see circumstances whereby a behaviour that an individual wants to engage in could be damaging to the collective state to the extent it should be legislated against - I guess drug-taking is one, violence, excessive drunkeness perhaps. My point only was that if the sexuality in question seems to cause no one any harm, does not appear to be easy to change, and the individual seems to think of it as core to themselves and are happy with that, then I can't see any reason for any intervention by anyone. And on the assumption that a government / society SHOULD REQUIRE a reason to intervene, the absence of one should mean that the people remain with equal rights, rather than being afforded them.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:15 / 21.04.05
Nina Clamourity The very fact that we consistently need to find some origin for homosexuality damns and damages our society. It emphasises the idea that homosexuality is in some way inferior and unnatural and frankly that's absurd because at the most basic level we're only talking about sexual attraction.

And at this point I'd like to bring back in Queer by Choice...
 
 
charrellz
09:58 / 25.04.05
I'll be back for a more in-depth response after I've gotten some sleep, but I want to touch on Tom's comment real quick, eventhough it's not 100% on-topic.

while they might not have an issue with people being gay and are clear that it doesn't harm them

The problem is that alot of people do view homosexuality as harmful to the homosexual, not just from the 'danger of corruption.' Even ignoring the "god hates fags" approach, many people still have this association of homosexuals and a hedonistic, morally-depraved, disease-ridden, drug-fueled world of rape, child molestation, and general badness. It's sad, but alot of people are still blinded by stereotypes from over a decade ago. Then again, I live in Texas, so my research sample may be a little skewed.
 
 
charrellz
04:52 / 26.04.05
In my opinion, I think sexuality/attraction (no matter what the preference is) is very different from belief. With my religous beliefs, I read some things that had some resonance with how I viewed things, I questioned my beliefs, and I decided what to continue believing and what not to believe. I never weighed the pros and cons of who I was attracted to, or whether or not I should be sexually aroused by physical pain, I just was or wasn't. I think it is possible for a person with enough motivation to atleast temporarily change his or her sexual preferences through intensive psychological counseling. Many American prisons assign sex offenders to various forms of cognitive-behavioral counseling in the attempt to 'free' them of their 'bad' sexual preferences. The results of these programs have been inconclusive at best, but have shown some short-term effectiveness in eliminating exhibitionism & fetishism (Kilmann et al, 1982), pedophilia (Marshall & Barbaree, 1990), and sexual aggression (Hall, 1995; Polizzi et al. 1999). But it is always ineffective if the 'patient' is unwilling/unmotivated.

I think religious views are similar to political views, given new information, your beliefs can and do change. Sexuality is more like music taste. You may convince yourself that jazz is the only true music, but you can't help but tap your toe to some synthpop. Religion = cognitive, sexuality = visceral.
 
 
rising and revolving
16:38 / 26.04.05
"Religion = cognitive, sexuality = visceral."

Personally, I believe (hah!) that spirituality that's not visceral is pretty poor. But that gets into the line between religion (which I'll buy as cognitive) and spirituality (which I feel is less so) and ultimately I probably should have used the word spirituality when starting this thread. Ah well. You live and learn. Lots of interesting stuff in it regardless.
 
 
Ganesh
18:14 / 26.04.05
I think it is possible for a person with enough motivation to atleast temporarily change his or her sexual preferences through intensive psychological counseling. Many American prisons assign sex offenders to various forms of cognitive-behavioral counseling in the attempt to 'free' them of their 'bad' sexual preferences. The results of these programs have been inconclusive at best, but have shown some short-term effectiveness in eliminating exhibitionism & fetishism

Operative terms here being temporarily and short-term. Attempts to change basic sexual orientation, attraction or fetishism do look promising in the short-term but, on medium to long-term follow-up, are inevitably disappointing. Even the much-trumpeted 'successes' tend, on further scrutiny, to reveal themselves as partial triumphs of repression rather than true change. One can, with sufficient self-discipline (and, not infrequently, anxiety/misery), avoid acting upon, expressing or consciously acknowledging one's sexuality - but it's all still there, essentially unchanged.

I'll see if I can dig out the results on 'ex-gay' so-called reparative therapy. It boasts a long-term success rate of 0.5% or thereabouts. And they might just be lying...
 
  
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