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Playing It Straight

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Ganesh
18:34 / 25.04.05
What is asexuality? Does it really exist?

Might be a Head Shop thread worth starting, Goldfish...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
18:46 / 25.04.05
Or, more accurately (since we have no idea of the selection process), she evicted two men who identified themselves, to the programme makers, as Straight. Whether they actually are straight (or heterosexual), is anyone's guess. Zoe's "simplistic stereotypes" (and how would you have worked out whether they were gay-identifying or not, RawkusBoi?) may well be more accurate than the two contestants concerned are yet aware.

Perhaps I'm over-simplifying this or you're over-analysing it.
I just honestly don't think these more complex issues are what's being turned into entertainment here. In fact I would quite happily presume that not many people outside of this thread are thinking in this way either.

But I'm sure that's one of the things that irritates you about this programme. Complex ideas of sexual identity being turned into entertainment.
But they're only complex if you over-analyse them as you're doing.

I know this is one of your areas of expertise/interest but sometimes not everything requires such stringent analysis.

Especially when it's mostly conjecture about how people were chosen for the show. Is it not enough for the contestant to identify as being gay but be willing "act" straight to win £100,000?

As for the prospect of "cheating" until the selection and interview process is revealed (which I doubt it will be) we can but go on the show's own admission that only the gay guys went into this programme knowing the full story in advance.

I would love to know what they told Zoe and the straight guys before filming began. Just how much they knew in advance I think is quite important.
 
 
Ganesh
19:14 / 25.04.05
Perhaps I'm over-simplifying this or you're over-analysing it.
I just honestly don't think these more complex issues are what's being turned into entertainment here. In fact I would quite happily presume that not many people outside of this thread are thinking in this way either.


It's mildly interesting to know what you happily presume "people outside of this thread are thinking", but not especially relevant to what's being talked about. The fact that something is not widely examined does not necessarily mean that those who do examine it are "over-analysing".

But I'm sure that's one of the things that irritates you about this programme. Complex ideas of sexual identity being turned into entertainment.
But they're only complex if you over-analyse them as you're doing.


Well, no, they're complex if they're complex. If one deliberately closes one's eyes, one's visual field is much simpler, but that doesn't mean the visual world is not composed of patterns more complex than blackness.

I know this is one of your areas of expertise/interest but sometimes not everything requires such stringent analysis.

No-one has claimed that the show requires analysis. I am choosing to analyse it, however, and I'll thank you not to repeatedly push the "overanalysis" line simply because I'm exploring the programme's underpinnings more closely than you are.

*shrugs*

I expect that, back in the day, something similar was said about The Black & White Minstrel Show. It's just harmless entertainment! Why'd you have to read so much into it? Not everything requires such stringent analysis, y'know...

Especially when it's mostly conjecture about how people were chosen for the show. Is it not enough for the contestant to identify as being gay but be willing "act" straight to win £100,000?

This forum is for conjecture about television shows.

As for whether it's "enough" for contestants to identify themselves to one person as gay and another as straight to win money, that rather depends on what claims are being made about the show. If it's being trailed as a random guessing game with a cash prize, then yes, I guess that is enough. If it's being trailed as a skill/deduction-based challenge with an element of "debunking" stereotypes, then no, frankly it isn't enough.

As for the prospect of "cheating" until the selection and interview process is revealed (which I doubt it will be) we can but go on the show's own admission that only the gay guys went into this programme knowing the full story in advance.

Or rather, only the gay-identifying guys knew the story in advance. Which would put gay-identifying bisexuals, asexuals, narcissists, etc. at something of a disadvantage over the straight-identifying.

I would love to know what they told Zoe and the straight guys before filming began. Just how much they knew in advance I think is quite important.

It's relevant, yes, but what's more relevant to me is the selection process: how the Straights were established to be straight (heterosexual?) and the Gays gay (homosexual?) I see that as absolutely central.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
20:15 / 25.04.05
That's where we differ.
I don't find that particularly interesting in the context of this programme.
Not that I wouldn't find it interesting at all but it has to be put into an appropriately aimed television programme.
Which this isn't.
 
 
Ganesh
20:20 / 25.04.05
I didn't say it was "interesting". I said it was relevant and absolutely central to the premise upon which this programme is based - which it is. If it can't be properly established that X = X in the first place, then challenging someone to deduce whether X = X is utterly nonsensical.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
20:24 / 25.04.05
Having thought about that a bit I've just realised.

I get bored by the initial auditions for shows like Pop Idol/American Idol. I'm only interested in the people who have proven themselves worthy of a proper television audience and given the chance to put on a real performance.

You, Ganesh, seem to like the first rounds, what happened during the selection process, the who, why and what behind the scenes.

So it's not that I disagree with your views completely but that we have opposing expectations and enjoy differing parts of a reality tv show like this.

In absence of the auditioning section for P.I.S. I can only go on what has been shown as opposed to deliberating on what happened before.
I guess I'm happier to take it for granted that if someone says they're gay (or straight) that's enough for me. I don't feel the need to question their statement.
 
 
Ganesh
20:42 / 25.04.05
You, Ganesh, seem to like the first rounds, what happened during the selection process, the who, why and what behind the scenes.

There's probably a little truth there, but I think it's a generalisation. In the case of Pop Idol, etc., I'm not particularly bothered because the "behind the scenes" stuff isn't necessarily that central to the show's basic premise. In the case of a show predicated on that-which-is-not-X pretending-to-be-X, I do like to know how it's been established that that-which-is-not-X is not, in fact, X.

In absence of the auditioning section for P.I.S. I can only go on what has been shown as opposed to deliberating on what happened before.

See above.

I guess I'm happier to take it for granted that if someone says they're gay (or straight) that's enough for me. I don't feel the need to question their statement.

I don't "feel a need" to question their statement in a general sense, particularly - but if they're appearing in a show where their sexual identity is central to the supposed challenge, then yes, I'm keen on a little qualification. This is possibly because I'm well acquainted with the ways in which one's sexuality can be an ongoing mystery, even to oneself.
 
 
katkinn
20:45 / 25.04.05
I didn't say it was "interesting". I said it was relevant and absolutely central to the premise upon which this programme is based - which it is. If it can't be properly established that X = X in the first place, then challenging someone to deduce whether X = X is utterly nonsensical.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "utterly nonsensical" - I guess a part of me follows rawkusboi's feeling that if someone says they're gay or straight, fair enough - but I do agree that this is a relevant question. I am also picturing hotel rooms "auditions" with Brian Dowling and Jason BB5 confirming the gay/straight/ness of the contestants. Ridiculous, but amusing.

What I also find interesting is that Zoe seems to have been swaying between eliminating people she gets on less well with personalitywise, and those that she believes to be gay, regardless of how much she likes them. It's certainly a weird type of dating show that says not "pick the one you like best" but "pick the one you are most confident is X"... the dating aspect is actually almost redundant. The morals of this show are certainly all askew.
 
 
Ganesh
20:57 / 25.04.05
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "utterly nonsensical" - I guess a part of me follows rawkusboi's feeling that if someone says they're gay or straight, fair enough

In the vast, vast majority of situations, I agree that someone identifying themselves as gay or straight is fair enough. In this particular, highly atypical setting, though, I really don't feel it's enough to accept self-identification at face value: if one is challenging someone to employ subtle intuition to determine whether or not X is telling the truth, then I think it kinda behoves us to establish that X is telling the truth.

I am also picturing hotel rooms "auditions" with Brian Dowling and Jason BB5 confirming the gay/straight/ness of the contestants. Ridiculous, but amusing.

Well, quite; it is ridiculous - which is why the premise of this show's ridiculous. Brian Dowling was a self-identified gay man apparently terrified at the prospect of having sex with men, who appeared to be using Big Brother partly as a 'coming out' vehicle. Jason was a self-identified bisexual-then-"100% heterosexual"-man who appeared to enjoy the (physical) company of men more than women. Placing either in a simple category would be tricky at best, which is my point. There are gay-identifying men who don't have sex with men, and there are straight-identifying men who do. Their self-identification is likely skewed, unless we uncouple 'gay' from 'homosexual' and 'straight' from 'heterosexual'.
 
 
Peach Pie
13:30 / 17.05.05
Thought the way Zoe was treated at the final showdown was reprehensible.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:32 / 17.05.05
What, being (offered all and then) given half the prize money even though she didn't win?
 
 
Ganesh
20:14 / 17.05.05
Didn't see it; what happened in the final episode? Last one I saw was the one where one of the cowboys outed himself to Zoe because he couldn't bear constantly lying about a fundamental aspect of his existence - and because he thought she deserved to win.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:49 / 18.05.05
She chose Ben, the guy who looked deeply uncomfortable at the gay bar (gay bar, gay bar). Turns out (well, if you accept the premise and take the guys' self-identification at their word etc etc) he is gay, but he didn't want the money as he was only doing the show to make a point. He offered her all the money, she insisted he take half, they hugged, there were tears. It was almost sweet, if only the series as a whole wasn't risible bollocks. Apparently both Marco and Danny Bi were "straight": this despite the fact that Marco's talking-to-camera bits were riddled with Freudian slips such as "I hope Zoe realises I am a homosex- I mean, heterosexual"...
 
 
_Boboss
11:08 / 18.05.05
the fighty one. told yer.
 
 
Ganesh
11:29 / 18.05.05
Danny Bi

Assuming you're kidding here: please tell me his surname wasn't really 'Bi'...
 
 
Peach Pie
15:48 / 18.05.05
what happened in the final episode?

It was down to Danny B and Ben. She told Danny B she thought he was gay. Danny, knowing she had just lost the game, engaged in an extensive monologue to make her think he was gay, before spitefully saying "Just kidding - I'm straight". It was unpleasant to watch. But yes Flyboy, she was lucky that Ben split the money with her after all.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:56 / 18.05.05
I was a bit puzzled by Zoe's breakdown at the end - did she genuinely have 'feelings' for Ben, or was she just upset about her defective gaydar, and the consequent loss of fifty grand ?
 
 
Peach Pie
16:14 / 18.05.05
i guess it's difficult to work out what your feelings are when you have to clinically dispatch all bar one of the people there... i think disappointment and exasperation. under those circumstances, it's maybe understandable that she was upset with someone who'd been deceiving her.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
21:08 / 18.05.05
The outcome was a given since Ben offered her his half two weeks ago.
She went for the money, knowing that even if he was gay she'd get a piece of the pie.

Did anyone else find the whole "I'm sorry, you have it... no YOU have it" part completely staged? It was unbearably insincere and fake. But I guess that was the only way to end the show without anyone seeming like a smug bastard. Much.
 
 
Ganesh
22:45 / 18.05.05
Within a show based on shifting notions of self-identified sexualities apparently taken at face value then required to conceal/reveal on cue, isn't pretty much any ending going to look staged, insincere and fake? I mean, it's not like a curtain can be whipped away to reveal some sort of hitherto-hidden but beyond-all-question, why-didn't-you-spot-it 'gayness', is it? Surely any attempt at resolution of this show was always gonna be anticlimactic at best?
 
 
Peach Pie
16:20 / 19.05.05
it seemed to fall below its own standards of fakery by having the annoying guy with the guitar serenade them as soon as Ben made his "spontaneous" speech...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:51 / 19.05.05
The question I'm surprised nobody's asked:

What do the programme-makers have on Alan Cumming that made it necessary for him to do the voiceover? He can't need the money, surely...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:49 / 19.05.05
I mean it's not like a curtain can be whipped away to reveal some sort of hitherto-hidden but beyond-all-question, why-didn't-you-spot-it 'gayness,' is it ?

That's pretty much exactly how it was presented, to be honest.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
20:15 / 19.05.05
it seemed to fall below its own standards of fakery by having the annoying guy with the guitar serenade them as soon as Ben made his "spontaneous" speech...

Exactly.
The whole last section seemed incredibly badly orchestrated and cringe-ingly scripted. The emotion involved seemed almost real but the actual conversation felt far from honest. It was a "good" way to wrap up the show but there's a part of me that really wanted Ben to have some fucking balls and walk off with the money.
 
 
Ganesh
01:15 / 20.05.05
That's pretty much exactly how it was presented, to be honest.

I know that was the lead-up, but it could never actually deliver. Point being, with gay-pretending-to-be-straight, even if we accept everything at face value, there's no big reveal - not visually, anyway. Although the show was (unfairly, IMHO) predicated on Zoe discerning some sort of behavioural or cultural signifier of gayness, the fact that, at most, the men involved can be said to be subjectively gay-identifying means one cannot triumphantly whip off their undergarments to reveal their Big Gay Lack-Of-Balls, say, or produce their Certificate of Gaydom as p(r)oof of purchase.

And I guess that makes two noble, self-sacrificing gayers, happy to eschew potential winnings for The Girl. All very retro...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:01 / 20.05.05
I see what you mean Dr G. However the guy who did win was far and away the least 'gay-acting' contestant in the series - appalled expression in the gay disco, vague rumblings about 'fucking chinning' one of the others, barely articulate declarations of love for Zoe etc - The idea seemed to be that no one that overtly hetero would possibly claim to be anything other than that, unless they actually 'were.' It was Ben's apparent total lack of ( metro ) sexual ambivalence that provided the shock value when he revealed his true self at the end, I guess.

That said, in the context of the show she should have kicked him out early, the dozy bat.
 
 
Ganesh
12:18 / 20.05.05
It was Ben's apparent total lack of ( metro ) sexual ambivalence that provided the shock value when he revealed his true self at the end, I guess.

I guess so, but, in the absence of any objective quantifier, rather than a contrast between look!-he-seems-straight! and but!-he's-actually-gay! it's a contrast between look!-he-seems-straight! and but!-he-says-he's-gay! - which, as dramatic contrasts go, is somewhat underwhelming. As you say, the "shock value" derives almost entirely from the fact that someone might voluntarily choose to identify as gay when they could identify as straight.

Mmm... stereotype-challenging...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
19:54 / 20.05.05
I'm still at a loss as to why she kicked out Danny (the blonde one).
He was, by far, the most obviously straight guy there. Without a question of a doubt. If she kicked him out for the other Danny (the one who joked that he was "gay" in the last episode) why didn't she choose him in the end??

Dozy woman.
 
 
Ganesh
20:34 / 20.05.05
He was, by far, the most obviously straight guy there. Without a question of a doubt.

And therefore, according to logic employed by Alex, the most likely to be (self-identified as) gay. Whatever she did, Zoe would've been slammed: chuck out the most "obviously straight" and she's "dozy"; chuck out the most "obviously gay" and she's "crass".
 
 
Psych Safeling
22:35 / 21.05.05
To start with, I thought the show was obnoxious. My unease rested, I suppose, in the fact that the gay guys could only win by convincingly playing themselves straight, which to me does little to challenge notions of the inherent 'rightness' of heterosexuality, as it rewards the ability to imitate it, precisely when we should be celebrating that societal development (in the UK at least) is reducing the onus on individuals to perform this very role. I know this was in the premise, and that this, at least, was explicit, I'm just saying I found it distasteful.

As I see it, Ganesh's objection to the series was that it rested on the following assumptions:

a) 'gay' is a designator referring to a property such that 'gay' and 'not gay' is a contradiction and that 'gay' or 'not gay' is comprehensive
b) 'gay' and 'not gay' are both properties that necessarily manifest themselves to the subject

Since it was based on false assumptions, the whole show was ridiculous.

The questions are therefore not whether the assumptions are false (I think that we all know counterexamples to each of them), but

a) whether it's correct to say that the programme format implied them, and
b) whether if it were it means the whole thing was bollocks

I'm quite tired and not sure whether this makes sense, though I'm pretty sure it's not really adding anything. I was dithering over the post and turned to my boyfriend, who said, and I quote

"Oh, who cares, it's all just bollocks TV"

and I think there's also a lot of merit to that. Just thought I might try to clarify what I thought was the central argument.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:11 / 21.05.05
I'm still at a loss as to why she kicked out Danny ( the blonde one. )

Yeah, me too. They seemed to have spent a special evening on the boat that time, and yet what did the shameful slattern do the next day ? She just threw him away - he 'expressed his feelings' and so, ergo, was 'a puff.'

Thinking about it, she got what was coming to her. Ben, the builder, should have taken the cash and left her to waste away on the Dude ranch in Mexico, with that clown with the guitar singing 'faido' melodies as Zoe metamorphed gently into whatever it is that lives at the bottom of a bottle of mescal, bemoaning her left-beind career from the porch of a damaged veranda as the wild dogs and vultures circle ever nearer.

Basically.
 
 
katkinn
23:29 / 23.05.05
Slightly late to this, but does anyone have an opinion on the "DannyB and Zoe spend night in bed together" situation from the camping trip? I thought it was heavily implicated in the editing that *something* had gone on between them - with questions like "just how far would a gay man go to win this show?" followed by quick cuts to that scene and so on. I can't quite work out if nothing happened, but the editors wanted to make it look as if it might have done, or whether something did happen and then Zoe convinced herself that he'd done it despite being gay.

Either way I thought Zoe came across like a sulky little madam in the final episode. DannyB's false reveal was annoying, but her immediate "it's fine, I'm over it" when she found out that Ben was gay was embarrassingly false. She then basically sulked and cried her way into winning half the money, even though she had lost the competition fair and square, just awful.

What made it even worse was that the presenter unceremoniously handed Ben his winning envelope barely muttering congratulations before stalking off hand in hand with Zoe. The guy had just won the programme! I mean, it would have presumably been big celebrations all round if Zoe had picked a straight guy? I presume that was why they had the fireworks that they eventually set off after Ben gave away half his winnings (and didn't Zoe cheer up remarkably quickly once she got that envelope).

meh.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
18:53 / 24.05.05
Oh god, I forgot about June Sarpong's attitude when Ben won.
She was all "here's your money you won (you cunt)".
Obviously the gay guy had to be looked down upon for winning via deception despite the fact that was the point of the game.

Re: Danny B - apparently more went on off-camera than we know about (I shall endeavour to find out from my sources at C4, just cos I'm nosey). I suspect that if Danny B and Zoe did get freaky that would be the main reason she booted the other Danny.
 
  

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