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Playing It Straight

 
  

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Peach Pie
15:12 / 18.04.05

Zoe didn't realise this show was going to be a test of her 'gaydar', and didn't find out until it was too late for her to quit. It's very unfair.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:30 / 18.04.05
make no bones about Ganesh

Jub is one of the preverts. And I claim my 50,000 pounds.

Sorry. But do agree with pretty much all of 'nesh's comments, and thanks muchly for elucidating the 'ick' factor I've felt every time I've heard a mention of this programme.

As has been pointed out, it's such a stacked environment, there's no worth at all to the process of 'collecting the evidence' and 'choosing'. It's much more akin to a 'pick a card, any card' trick.

And further, its popularity (I haven't seen it/am barely watching telly atm, but feel like I've been hearing about it alot) in the massively over-subscribed reality/dating tv formats does point to an interest, or perhaps more accurately a prurience (fascination and nervousness) with being able to identify 'them'/the continuing appeal of presenting sex as sexuality as identity in neatly closed taxonomies.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
11:34 / 19.04.05
Zoe didn't realise this show was going to be a test of her 'gaydar', and didn't find out until it was too late for her to quit. It's very unfair.

She was informed of the twist after she'd been with the guys for a day but I expect that she knew beforehand that there would be some sort of twist. Otherwise what would the point be of going to the ranch with a bunch of guys just to find the one you fancy the most?
She knew that she was entering a show with the possibility of winning a certain amount of money, I sincerely doubt that she's made it into the show without having an inkling that she'll have to overcome some sort of obstacle in order to win that money.

If she really was completely ignorant of the twist in the format of the show then she probably deserves to lose. It's not like there aren't enough reality dating programs out there.
Anyone who is reality TV savvy (which you really should be to consider getting involved in one) knows that things are never as they initially seem, especially on dating shows.

The interest lies in watching joe public squirm and fail or succeed against all odds, these programs aren't a cake walk anymore.

I'm not defending the quality or the social politics of the program but I don't think everyone is as innocent as the people here like to make out.

No. It deserves to be debunked by a programme a lot better than this.
Any suggestions Ganesh?
 
 
Triplets
11:51 / 19.04.05
And don't even get me started on the sad shoe existence that most men prescribe to- two pairs of shoes is not enough. Jeepers, four pairs isn't enough!

Amen! Can I get this in a 3x6 sign above my shoe rack?
 
 
Ganesh
12:57 / 19.04.05
She was informed of the twist after she'd been with the guys for a day but I expect that she knew beforehand that there would be some sort of twist. Otherwise what would the point be of going to the ranch with a bunch of guys just to find the one you fancy the most?
She knew that she was entering a show with the possibility of winning a certain amount of money, I sincerely doubt that she's made it into the show without having an inkling that she'll have to overcome some sort of obstacle in order to win that money.


I'm sure she'd sussed that there'd be some sort of "obstacle", but there are twists and twists. "Some of these guys (say they) are gay, some (say they) are straight, but we've gone out of our way to ensure you have absolutely no way of determining which - now guess away" is not a twist one might readily expect. It doesn't play fair, for a start, as the show's organisers have taken such pains to stack the deck against Zoe, that she might as well toss a coin.

If she really was completely ignorant of the twist in the format of the show then she probably deserves to lose.

Why? I don't really understand this. As I see it, if Zoe had been aware of the format and had entered into it with an attitude of "I can spot a poof a mile away, me", then she'd deserve to lose.

As far as I'm aware, this isn't a long-running show like Big Brother, where contestants have watched previous series, and have formed some idea of the set-up.

I'm not defending the quality or the social politics of the program but I don't think everyone is as innocent as the people here like to make out.

As I say, there's a difference between expecting a "twist" and expecting to be placed in an environment specifically selected to ensure one doesn't have a basic fighting chance.

Any suggestions Ganesh?

On a better programme debunking/exploring the concept of gaydar. Christ, practically anything would be better than Playing It Straight. If it were me doing the commissioning, I'd probably be thinking along the lines of C4's Anatomy of Disgust, which, over the course of six programmes, examined the concept in historical and cultural detail, amply demonstrating that something we accept as an instinctive, reliable 'gut reaction' is much more complex.

I'd start by looking at what people understand by 'gaydar', examine the evidence for and against such stereotyping (and there's plenty to support the idea that a large proportion of gay men - possible a majority - do move, talk and behave differently from straight men), break out the queer theorists for the history of 'gay' and gay self-identification, ending up with an exploration of the concept of metrosexuality, and what it says about the constructs of homosexuality and heterosexuality.

What I wouldn't do is deliberately set out to gather a collection of individuals who confound categorisation, ask them to categorise themselves within an artificial dichotomy, then inveigle a hapless female into a rather cruel game of chance merely to prove a 'straw man' point...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
14:45 / 19.04.05
If she really was completely ignorant of the twist in the format of the show then she probably deserves to lose.

Why? I don't really understand this. As I see it, if Zoe had been aware of the format and had entered into it with an attitude of "I can spot a poof a mile away, me", then she'd deserve to lose.


Sorry change that to "a twist" rather than "the twist".

The sheer fact that it is a new show, as opposed to a long running one a la BB, would make me even more suspicious of any change in the set up.
How many dating reality shows commissioned recently (in the past year or so) haven't had some abstract twist?

Joe Millionaire (he's rich! oh no he's not!)
Joe Schmoe (date a geek when you expected a hunk)
Fool Around with... (singles vs couples)
There's Something About Miriam (she's a he)
etc etc etc.
 
 
Ganesh
17:20 / 19.04.05
How many dating reality shows commissioned recently (in the past year or so) haven't had some abstract twist?

Joe Millionaire (he's rich! oh no he's not!)
Joe Schmoe (date a geek when you expected a hunk)
Fool Around with... (singles vs couples)
There's Something About Miriam (she's a he)
etc etc etc.


In all of these examples, the basis on which "abstract twist" is predicated has been relatively simple for the show's organisers to quantify, at least semi-objectively. In Joe Millionaire, one can establish Joe's non-millionaireness by consulting his bank. In Joe Schmoe (was it really called that?), the geekiness/hunkiness is readily apparent. Your third example's a new one on me, but in There's Something About Miriam, Miriam's birth sex/gender discrepancy can be verified through medical records.

Playing It Straight is slightly different, however, in that (to the best of my knowledge) the show's organisers have made little effort to establish that the X-pretending-to-be-Y actually is X in the first place (and not Y or Z or 23). They've established (presumably simply by asking them) that some of their cowboys are gay-identifying, but 'gay-identifying' doesn't necessarily map onto 'gay'.

This is relevant because it puts the show's "abstract twist" in a different league from those of your other examples, in terms of what is expected of the protagonist. In Joe Millionaire we know it's been objectively verified that Joe is not a millionaire, and we'd expect the female protagonist to pick up on the same hints of non-millionaireness that we'd pick up on. After the hilarious "they're all geeks!" reveal, Joe Schmoe (or Joe Average as it was called in the UK, I think) actually was a reasonably straightforward dating game. With Miriam, we knew it had been established that Miriam was indeed born male, so we could expect the contestants to pick up on some of the hints of born-maleness we ourselves might've noticed (or not noticed). Either way, we knew X-pretending-to-be-Y was indeed X (or, at least, not Y) and there was arguably a degree of skill/instinct involved ie. more than a simple game of chance.

With Playing It Straight, no-one can know for sure whether the Gays actually are Gay, and the Straights straight. All we know is that, in the context of auditioning for a reality television show, they identified themselves as one or the other. If the show's organisers cannot establish objectively that X is X, then how's the protagonist supposed to do so? The only way to establish whether someone identifies as gay or straight is to ask them directly, and Zoe's not allowed to do that. She's forced to try to infer sexual identification from appearance and behaviour, then slammed for making decisions based on stereotyping. I ask again: how the hell is she supposed to tell whether someone previously identified himself, in the audition context, as gay or straight? Where's the skill element here?

Essentially, Playing It Straight is built on a foundation so shakily unverifiable (by anyone, let alone poor Zoe) that it becomes a game of pure chance. That's how its twist differs from those of superficially similar formats, and that's why I think it's unfair. If Zoe had made extravagant claims of having a "100% accurate" gaydar, then she might've expected as impossible an obstacle as this one; otherwise, I think she's been placed in a no-win (other than by tossing a coin or rolling a die) situation she couldn't reasonably anticipate.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
19:34 / 19.04.05
You might do well to watch Fool Around With... then. Another Channel 4/E4 dating game that pits fours girls against one guy or four guys against one girl or four guys against one guy.

Three of the girls/guys have partners. The object of the game is for the main single player to choose by reasons of deduction/trickery etc which one of the group is single and thereby win the money.

Sounds like a similar sort of deceit to me.

I think what you're so hot under the collar about is the possibility that someone could enter Playing It Straight without a clear definition of their sexuality. So they could say they're gay to get in but actually be Bi or straight-curious or whatever to win over the girl.

Problem with that is that each of the guys will have had to define their sexuality as being gay or straight before entering the ranch.
Regardless of the label they identify themselves with in real life, for the sake of the reality program they will have to play it straight or just be straight. There's no changing of minds halfway through.

You all seem to be appauled by the lack of grey area about this program whilst I think it's a program ABOUT the grey areas between sexuality and common preconceptions of sexuality.

That and I like watching them all squirm at the end.
I'm enjoying it (apart from the singing bloke) and I don't feel the need to deconstruct the program because Barbelith thinking means it may offend my own sexual preferences.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:05 / 19.04.05
Not to disagree about the absurdity of the show, but surely if the producers have gone out of their way to pick gay-acting straights and vice versa ( or at least, for the purposes of the series, people who are prepared to identify as same, ) all Zoe has to do to win the money is systematically kick out the ones who seemed to be most into, I don't know, DIY and applied mechanics and real ale, and hang onto the ones with most the skin-care products ? To be fair, you wouldn't expect her to work that out immediately, but I'd be a bit surpised if she hasn't by the end.
 
 
Ganesh
21:11 / 19.04.05
Three of the girls/guys have partners. The object of the game is for the main single player to choose by reasons of deduction/trickery etc which one of the group is single and thereby win the money.

Sounds like a similar sort of deceit to me.


Well no, because, again, it can presumably be established with at least some degree of objectivity (interviewing partners and/or marriage certificates, if they're actually married) that the partnered individuals actually are partnered ie. there's some objectively-verified baselines that X-pretending-to-be-Y actually is X.

Of course, if the organisers had obtained same-sex registration certificates or interviewed same-sex partners, then yes, it might reasonably be claimed that they'd gone to the same lengths in establishing that X-pretending-to-be-Y is X, and the deceit would be comparable.

If anyone's aware how they did establish the sexualities of the Playing It Straight contestants, I'd love to hear about it.

I think what you're so hot under the collar about is the possibility that someone could enter Playing It Straight without a clear definition of their sexuality. So they could say they're gay to get in but actually be Bi or straight-curious or whatever to win over the girl.

Problem with that is that each of the guys will have had to define their sexuality as being gay or straight before entering the ranch.

Regardless of the label they identify themselves with in real life, for the sake of the reality program they will have to play it straight or just be straight. There's no changing of minds halfway through.


That's not my point (and I'm making a point rather than getting "hot under the collar"). My point is not that people might change their self-definition halfway through, but that it's virtually impossible to establish at the outset that those who identify themselves as 'gay' actually are gay - which not only invalidates any claim that the programme is "gaydar-debunking" (Zoe's gaydar may work perfectly well; she may be more able to gauge the contestants' sexualities than the contestants themselves, or they may be lying, or they may be neither gay nor straight) but also puts Zoe in such an impossible position that any reasonable "deduction" is sucked from the situation.

You all seem to be appauled by the lack of grey area about this program whilst I think it's a program ABOUT the grey areas between sexuality and common preconceptions of sexuality.

Firstly, I'm not "appauled"; I'm attempting, repeatedly, to clarify a point you're persistently missing.

Secondly, the show is in no way about sexual "grey areas". It may be pushing the line that "some straight men are camp and some gay men aren't" but it's still underpinned by the basically flawed assumption that all the contestants fit neatly into either Straight or Gay. Where's the greyness there?

I think it's overplaying the "gay can be butch and straight can be nelly" line (well, duh) and underplaying the possibilities that a) some people's sexual identification may not correspond with their sexual behaviour, and b) some people may be neither straight nor gay.

I don't feel the need to deconstruct the program because Barbelith thinking means it may offend my own sexual preferences.

I don't feel a "need to deconstruct the program" any more than you feel a "need" to watch people squirm; it interests me to do so. I'm intrigued at the concept of specifically "Barbelith thinking", though: perhaps you might expand on this in a separate thread?
 
 
Ganesh
21:20 / 19.04.05
Not to disagree about the absurdity of the show, but surely if the producers have gone out of their way to pick gay-acting straights and vice versa ( or at least, for the purposes of the series, people who are prepared to identify as same, ) all Zoe has to do to win the money is systematically kick out the ones who seemed to be most into, I don't know, DIY and applied mechanics and real ale, and hang onto the ones with most the skin-care products ? To be fair, you wouldn't expect her to work that out immediately, but I'd be a bit surpised if she hasn't by the end.

If she knows about the selection process and the advice given to the contestants (apparently both Gays and Straights were given advice and even some schooling in muddying the waters, in terms of how they presented themselves) then yeah, one might expect Zoe to play counter-intuitively. Alternatively, having evicted the most obviously camp/effeminate/shoe-fetishistic guys and discovered they're Straights, then she might well twig towards the end.

I think there's still inevitably gonna be the trickier Jason-from-Big Brother types to contend with: subjectively straight; objectively not straight but not necessarily gay either.
 
 
Smoothly
23:10 / 19.04.05
Regardless of the label they identify themselves with in real life, for the sake of the reality program they will have to play it straight or just be straight. There's no changing of minds halfway through. rawkusboi

You seem to be making Ganesh's point for him, and then some. If how they identify in real life is irrelevant, and it's just about determining what they wrote on a form before they entered the ranch, Zoe's fortune might as well come down to weather they had ticked a red box or a blue box. That is, absolutely fuck all to do with sexuality.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
00:22 / 20.04.05
I am now devoutly hoping that they have tipped a couple of self-identified asexuals into the mix - not just to raise awareness but, you know, to *really* mix it up some ...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
07:53 / 20.04.05
I don't think I am supporting Ganesh's point at all actually. I think we're agreeing that the contestants sexuality outside of the show may not be cut and dry but for the purposes of this program they would have had to tick that box, be it red or blue.

Sexuality may be in flux, as Ganesh likes to think and obviously works hard to support this claim, and I don't dispute that BUT in the context of this program you only get to tick one box.
Going into this as a sexually confused or undecided player makes no difference once you've classed yourself, again for the purposes of this show, as straight or gay.

If one of the men is bi-sexual but entered into this as being "gay" (ie: ticking one specific box) then if Zoe does eventually pick him she still loses as she chose one of the guys listed as being gay.
Whether they reconcile their differences afterwards and share the money anyway is a matter for magazines like Heat to cover once the series is done.

By the same token if she chooses a "straight" (ticked the other box) guy who has decieved the producers of the show and is actually gay she wins because he is classed by the program makers as being straight.

There are only two options for the lads to choose from before entering the show. How they decieve or convince Zoe of their hetrosexuality is what I've been finding interesting, even if it is a bit of a "car crash" program.


[threadrot]
As for the "Barbelith thinking" thread I don't think it's my style to attack a forum that I mostly enjoy participating in.
I just get the feeling, more often than not, that there is a considerable amount of intellectual snobbishness going on here that betrays the out and out joycore moments that I enjoy so much. But (and I've said this before) I'd rather have Barbelith's intellectual snobbishness than other forums lowest common denominator opinionated drivel. I just have to remember to put up my shield when I feel I'm being patronised.
[endthreadrot]
 
 
Smoothly
08:20 / 20.04.05
By the same token if she chooses a "straight" (ticked the other box) guy who has deceived the producers of the show and is actually gay she wins because he is classed by the program makers as being straight.

But, rawkusboi, if which box they ticked has nothing to do with their sexuality (or anything else that Zoe might be able to determine from meeting them) - like whether they had, on one particular occasion, ticked a box call 'blue' or a box called 'red' - then making a winning selection is just a matter of chance. Isn't it? Am I making sense? Doesn't that just make it a game of 'guess what number I'm thinking of'?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:43 / 20.04.05
I just get the feeling, more often than not, that there is a considerable amount of intellectual snobbishness going on here that betrays the out and out joycore moments that I enjoy so much.

And we have to cope with the inverted snobbery of people who have decided that as clever as they are is precisely clever enough, and anything more is just intellectual snobbery. It's tough, but we're gonna get by.

This is a thread on a reality TV show. It's not as if Ganesh has started a thread called "Playing it Straight - I didn't even know it was on, and was at the opera that night anyway." You may want to raise your sights a bit before calling intellectual snobbery.

On asexuals - again, it's possible that they already have included some. Since we don't know what the criteria for "gay" or "straight" are at the selection process, somebody who has never felt sexual attraction for anyone but identifies as straight might be in the mix. I quite like the idea that one coudl tick the "gay" box because, despite having lots of relationships with women, you feel a bit gay, thus throwing the whole system into chaos by cheerfully and truthfully discussing your relationships with women...
 
 
Jack Vincennes
09:12 / 20.04.05
I was trying to think of a game show for your idea Smoothly, featuring a distressed Zoe-like girl trying to work out whether one of the contestants pressed his case more ardently when she was wearing the blue top or the red one. It fell down when I came to imagining humiliating challenges based on determining which colour they'd choose (given an arbitrary choice), but I had thought of the final round in which it was revealed that one of the finalists was completely colour blind -so even he didn't know what colour he'd chosen! If anyone from Channel 4 is reading this I'll be staying in at lunch so just call anytime and we can take this idea forwards.

what would the point be of going to the ranch with a bunch of guys just to find the one you fancy the most?

To be honest, I can't imagine Zoe choosing someone on any grounds other than that she fancies them -as Paleface mentioned upthread, the first two guys she kicked off were massively irritating. When I first saw it I was sure that soon enough the kind of "but I fancy him so much! It is impossible that he could not fancy me!" type reasoning will kick in. Does this seem to have happened? I only saw the first one, but it did occur to me that were I Zoe attraction would probably end up being my sole criterion in choosing who stays and goes, which makes it even more arbitrary.
 
 
Smoothly
09:21 / 20.04.05
If anyone from Channel 4 is reading this I'll be staying in at lunch so just call anytime and we can take this idea forwards.

Don't get your hopes up, Vincennes. I think they've already booked a table at the Wolseley to negotiate the international rights for 'Blacking Up' with Ganesh.
 
 
Ganesh
10:30 / 20.04.05
I am now devoutly hoping that they have tipped a couple of self-identified asexuals into the mix - not just to raise awareness but, you know, to *really* mix it up some ...

I namechecked the "no sex, please, we're a" guys in my first post - but there obviously wouldn't have been any self-identified asexuals in the show, because self-identification was, it would appear, limited to Gay and Straight.

Which is not to say, of course, that there no gay-identifying or straight-identifying asexuals present...
 
 
Ganesh
10:43 / 20.04.05
Sexuality may be in flux, as Ganesh likes to think and obviously works hard to support this claim

No. I have claimed that sexuality is complex, more complex than Gay-or-Straight. This is not the same thing as claiming that the contestants' sexualities are "in flux".

and I don't dispute that BUT in the context of this program you only get to tick one box.
Going into this as a sexually confused or undecided player makes no difference once you've classed yourself, again for the purposes of this show, as straight or gay.


Yes. It. Does.

Becauuuse (again), the whole show is predicated on the assumption that X-pretending-to-be-Y actually is X. If X is not X, then expecting the protagonist to detect underlying X-ness is nonsensical.

If one of the men is bi-sexual but entered into this as being "gay" (ie: ticking one specific box) then if Zoe does eventually pick him she still loses as she chose one of the guys listed as being gay.

But she loses because she's been expected to somehow identify 'gayness' and the contestant is not gay (despite having ticked the Gay box). She may correctly detect that he is not gay (which he's not) and therefore assume he's straight - because those are the only two options at her disposal - and lose.

That's why I think it's unfair.

By the same token if she chooses a "straight" (ticked the other box) guy who has decieved the producers of the show and is actually gay she wins because he is classed by the program makers as being straight.

In which case, the show concludes that Zoe's gaydar abilities are present and correct, when in fact she's completely wrong. The programme would then appear to (incorrectly) confirm the concept of gaydar, at least in Zoe's case. Meaning it is in no way "gaydar-debunking" and is essentially a game of chance - in which her failure to spot someone's actual homosexuality (as opposed to what they ticked on the box) is rewarded with £50,000.
 
 
Warewullf
11:22 / 20.04.05
Ok kids, we're going around in circles here. May I summarise your points?

Rawkusboi claims that it doesn't make any difference if the guys are gay or straight as the point of the show is for Zoe to walk away with £50,000.

Ganesh says the point of the show is to prove that one can tell whether a person is gay or straight simply by talking to, and spending time with, them.


In Rawkusboi's case, if the point of the show is to make Zoe richer, then, no, it doesn't matter whether the guy she picks is actually gay or not as long as she guesses what the guy claims to be and gets the money.

In Ganesh's case, the point is to prove the existence of "gaydar" (ie the ability to tell if someone is gay simply by talking to them) therefore it matters a great deal whether the guys are actually gay or straight.

Yeah?
 
 
_Boboss
11:50 / 20.04.05
i only saw a bit of last week's so if he's gone then dur, but that one who wants to fight everyone? GAY!!

we'll get a straight guy who has a million shoes and a gay guy who's all punchy! genius!

congratulations mr. barley
 
 
Ganesh
11:51 / 20.04.05
In Ganesh's case, the point is to prove the existence of "gaydar" (ie the ability to tell if someone is gay simply by talking to them) therefore it matters a great deal whether the guys are actually gay or straight.

Yes - and, equally, if a major point of the show is to disprove (or "debunk") the existence of gaydar, then it also matters whether the guys are actually gay or straight. Otherwise, it's a random game of chance, with any deduction/skill element effectively removed. They might as well have the guys stand there in burkas, with Zoe deciding who stays and who goes by means of 'eeny meeny miny mo'.
 
 
Ganesh
08:04 / 23.04.05
"Well done, you got rid of one."

Oh, go fuck yourself, Sarpong...
 
 
Peach Pie
15:42 / 23.04.05
Rawkusboi -

I would certainly want to back out of a show if I was twisted in a way that put such a great pressure on me, and was ultimately morally self-defeating, for reasons Ganesh has outlined.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
18:27 / 23.04.05
So therefore do you not think it's plausible that she knew about the twist?
If she didn't I'm sure she could have easily walked after finding out about it.
 
 
katkinn
10:50 / 25.04.05
Yes - and, equally, if a major point of the show is to disprove (or "debunk") the existence of gaydar, then it also matters whether the guys are actually gay or straight. Otherwise, it's a random game of chance, with any deduction/skill element effectively removed. They might as well have the guys stand there in burkas, with Zoe deciding who stays and who goes by means of 'eeny meeny miny mo'.

I find it hard to believe that the programme makers would simply accept the contestants original assertion without doing some kind of background checks. It would be very easy for them to ask for some kind of "proof" - past relationships/photographs/testimonies from friends and family members - possible to fake for sure, but not as easy as this "ticking the box" scenario that has been repeatedly used in this thread. For instance, one of the competitors is a previous Mr Gay UK, so there is some "evidence", for what it's worth.

Zoe has been criticised on this thread for potentially not being aware of reality-tv etiquette, but the suggestion seems to be that the programme makers themselves would be so naive, and that suggestion is ridiculous. Reality TV shows are notoriously bound up legally, and I would be incredibly shocked if somewhere there isn't a clearly laid out "rule" from the programme makers as to what constitutes gay and straight in this instance, and how it has been "proven".

Now, whether that translates on screen or not is something different.

I don't find it so problematic to have only the categories of gay and straight on the programme, and I don't think that it suggests that these are the only two possibles, just that these are the only two possibles in this scenario. It is like saying that The Games negates the importance of being good at debating. It doesn't at all, it's just that in this instance, physical/sporting ability is what the competition is all about.
 
 
Ganesh
13:21 / 25.04.05
I find it hard to believe that the programme makers would simply accept the contestants original assertion without doing some kind of background checks.

Me too - but as well as being unclear as to what, exactly, the programme makers did do (as far as I'm aware, they've yet to inform us of this), I'm unsure which "background checks" would unequivocally establish gayness or straightness (to say nothing of homosexuality/heterosexuality...).

It would be very easy for them to ask for some kind of "proof" - past relationships/photographs/testimonies from friends and family members - possible to fake for sure, but not as easy as this "ticking the box" scenario that has been repeatedly used in this thread.

Naturally it's less easy than the box-ticking, but still infinitely fakeable. The most that can be gleaned is that X has consistently identified as Straight or Gay. Like Elton John, or Michael Barrymore, or Jason from Big Brother, etc., etc.

For instance, one of the competitors is a previous Mr Gay UK, so there is some "evidence", for what it's worth.

Sure - for what it's worth. Interestingly, the guys who win Mr Gay UK are not infrequently 'coming out' for the first time, and have seemingly chosen the contest specifically as a means of doing so. In interviews, they often come across as oddly prudish about the business of actual male-male sex (a la Brian 'Only Gay In The Village' Dowling), and they're often 'straight-acting' but quite asexual/narcissistic. They (have begun to) identify as gay, but whether their sexual behaviour (sleeping with men) or overall presentation (the stuff usually identified as effeminate/camp) reflects this is moot.

All of which is by the by. My point is, determining what constitutes 'Gay' is by no means as straightforward as might first appear, whether we conflate it with 'homosexual' or not.

Zoe has been criticised on this thread for potentially not being aware of reality-tv etiquette, but the suggestion seems to be that the programme makers themselves would be so naive, and that suggestion is ridiculous.

Until such time as the programme makers 'show working', no, it isn't ridiculous at all.

Reality TV shows are notoriously bound up legally, and I would be incredibly shocked if somewhere there isn't a clearly laid out "rule" from the programme makers as to what constitutes gay and straight in this instance, and how it has been "proven".

Where is it, then? Given the 'challenging stereotypes' bollocks being touted by C4 spokespeople, why hasn't the selection process been clearly established?

Now, whether that translates on screen or not is something different.

It clearly isn't shown on screen, though, is it?

I don't find it so problematic to have only the categories of gay and straight on the programme, and I don't think that it suggests that these are the only two possibles, just that these are the only two possibles in this scenario.

Which then begs the further question: how did they go about excluding all the other possibles? As well as these impressively-diagnostic but so-far-hypothetical "background checks" on homo/heterosexuality, they presumably carried out assessments of variables such as bisexuality, asexuality, denial, narcissism, etc.

I don't discount the possibility of their doing so, I just doubt it - until I know otherwise.

It is like saying that The Games negates the importance of being good at debating. It doesn't at all, it's just that in this instance, physical/sporting ability is what the competition is all about.

Difference being that debating ability is not a potential confounder when it comes to assessing physical/sporting ability.
 
 
katkinn
14:22 / 25.04.05
Me too - but as well as being unclear as to what, exactly, the programme makers did do (as far as I'm aware, they've yet to inform us of this), I'm unsure which "background checks" would unequivocally establish gayness or straightness (to say nothing of homosexuality/heterosexuality...).

I don't think you can 'unequivocally establish' something like gayness (which may well be your fundamental point, and I agree with that entirely) but surely the point is that the contestants themselves have self-identified one way or the other, and this identification has been accepted by the programme makers. Whether or not this makes it a fair context to test Zoe's 'gaydar' I'm not sure, but I find it hard to accept that a straight-indentifying male would lie to the programme makers (saying that he is gay), sign a legal contract stating as much and get away with it.

Naturally it's less easy than the box-ticking, but still infinitely fakeable. The most that can be gleaned is that X has consistently identified as Straight or Gay. Like Elton John, or Michael Barrymore, or Jason from Big Brother, etc., etc.

Well, your examples are all quite different. Jason from Big Brother "self-identifying" as bisexual strikes me as quite likely a role he exploited with knowledge of the programme makers likes and dislikes in terms of the contestants. It is also important to note that, whether bisexual or not, Jason's sexuality was not fundamental to the programme in the same way as it is in PIS and so he was/is under no obligation to label himself one way or the other (or indeed another).

My point is, determining what constitutes 'Gay' is by no means as straightforward as might first appear, whether we conflate it with 'homosexual' or not.

I would certainly agree with this and think it is certainly an interesting point not covered by the programme. The same goes for 'Straight'in this instance, and it's connection with heterosexually. I would say that the programme assumes the general publics' basic understanding of these words - a gay man is one who is sexually and romantically attracted to men, and vice versa - and would certainly agree that sexualities are more complex than this.

Until such time as the programme makers 'show working', no, it isn't ridiculous at all.

But they so rarely do. It would be interesting viewing for sure, but in reality tv terms not at all standard. They don't show us how they pick the people for Wife Swap or Big Brother, or discuss how they find and assess candidates for How Clean is Your House or Supernanny. All of these programmes have, to my mind, candidates with potential social, emotional and/or mental health issues and the "working" is never shown to us. A criticism for sure, but not one that can be solely laid at the feet of this programme.

Where is it, then? Given the 'challenging stereotypes' bollocks being touted by C4 spokespeople, why hasn't the selection process been clearly established?

I agree with this, and the Rules listed on the programmes website certainly only cover the "in-game" conditions. Like I said above though, we rarely get to see the selection process, partly I believe because the programme makers don't like to give "clues" to potential future applicants as to how to successfully audition.

It clearly isn't shown on screen, though, is it?

No.

Which then begs the further question: how did they go about excluding all the other possibles? As well as these impressively-diagnostic but so-far-hypothetical "background checks" on homo/heterosexuality, they presumably carried out assessments of variables such as bisexuality, asexuality, denial, narcissism, etc.

I don't discount the possibility of their doing so, I just doubt it - until I know otherwise.


Oh, I would doubt it too. I think they probably just went for the two primary "types" of sexuality, cashing in on the metrosexual tag while they can. Not the most sensitive programming, and certainly not as ground-breaking as the programme makers would have us believe. I just don't think it is a problem to narrow it down in this fashion, it isn't saying (explicitly) that these are the only two types of male sexuality.

Difference being that debating ability is not a potential confounder when it comes to assessing physical/sporting ability.

A fair point.

I find the programme fairly distasteful, don't get me wrong. I think the idea that the contestants can only win the money by promoting straightness - either by choosing it (Zoe) or making someone believe you are it (the male contestants) - is far more problematic than the issue of defining Gay and Straight. The message is be straight-acting = win, and I think that, alongside the ridiculous stereotyping and puns contained in the programme, is pretty awful.

Fundamentally, I think I basically agree with you, except that I don't find it problematic that the programme is based on two 'types' of sexuality. Definitions of those sexualities from the programme makers would certainly be a welcome addition, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
 
Peach Pie
14:38 / 25.04.05
Rawkusboi - it's not outside the bounds of possibility that she knew about the twist, but it's prefectly possible that she did not.

off-topic

What is asexuality? Does it really exist?
 
 
katkinn
15:13 / 25.04.05
it's not outside the bounds of possibility that she knew about the twist, but it's prefectly possible that she did not.

According to the programme rules, as advertised on their website, Zoe and the straight men were not aware of "the twist" until told about it by the presenter during the opening episode. It is of course literally possible that she/they knew, but it's not what we are led to believe.

On asexuality: From what I understand, asexuality is 'defined' as someone who identifies as being non-interested in sex/sexual relationships with either females or males for an established period for time (i.e someone "put off" sex after a bad relationship would not be asexual as they have a basic sexual interest).

A short answer, and by no means a complete one, but I hope it helps some.
 
 
Smoothly
15:57 / 25.04.05
s_g - Whisky P linked to this website a little further up. Lots of info and first hand accounts there.
 
 
Ganesh
16:23 / 25.04.05
I don't think you can 'unequivocally establish' something like gayness (which may well be your fundamental point, and I agree with that entirely) but surely the point is that the contestants themselves have self-identified one way or the other, and this identification has been accepted by the programme makers. Whether or not this makes it a fair context to test Zoe's 'gaydar' I'm not sure

It doesn't, which is one of my main points here. Essentially, Zoe's being asked, "who identified himself as Straight in the audition interview, and who identified as Gay" - and if the contestants' self-identification in that situation has simply been accepted (with no attempt to quantify/verify it), then there's no objective way of proving/disproving the accuracy of her gaydar.

but I find it hard to accept that a straight-indentifying male would lie to the programme makers (saying that he is gay), sign a legal contract stating as much and get away with it.

Perhaps not, but I think a neither-straight-nor-gay-identifying male could fairly readily claim to be one or t'other, and get away with it.

The question of signing a legal contract confirming one's sexuality is an interesting one. Even if such a contract had been used here, I'd imagine there are all manner of ways of getting around it. "My sexuality's fluid, and I happen to be straight at the moment" or "I 'turned gay' a week before signing the contract" or "I'm a straight virgin" or "I'm a gay man who's only slept with women, so I ticked Straight". Etc. I can imagine someone signing a contract saying they're telling the truth about their sexuality, but without a Kinsey-style questionnaire or the like, it's difficult to know which truth they're signing up to.

Well, your examples are all quite different. Jason from Big Brother "self-identifying" as bisexual strikes me as quite likely a role he exploited with knowledge of the programme makers likes and dislikes in terms of the contestants.

If you're feeling particularly masochistic, there's quite a long thread devoted to Big Brother 5. My own view on Jason is that he's a rather poorly-defined person who's derived relatively little happiness or satisfaction from 'straightness' but isn't uncomplicatedly gay either - and Big Brother provided him with a fresh opportunity to experiment with other modes of self-identification. In his case, ticking the Bisexual box allowed him to maximise his potential 'exoticism' in the eyes of the programme makers, but also allowed him to try a new sexual role for size - with the convenient getout clause that, if he started to develop homosexual anxiety (as he did, depressingly quickly), he could use the "I only said it to get on the show" line to backtrack.

My point being, I suppose, that individuals entering into a reality television show may a) lie to the programme makers, and/or b) 'lie' to themselves, where sexuality is concerned. The dynamic is potentially quite a complex one.

It is also important to note that, whether bisexual or not, Jason's sexuality was not fundamental to the programme in the same way as it is in PIS and so he was/is under no obligation to label himself one way or the other (or indeed another).

Sure - but, as yet, we've no evidence that the contestant work-up for Playing It Straight was any more rigorous (in terms of establishing contestants' sexuality) than for Big Brother, despite the idea of 'gaydar-testing' being significantly more pivotal.

I would certainly agree with this and think it is certainly an interesting point not covered by the programme. The same goes for 'Straight'in this instance, and it's connection with heterosexually. I would say that the programme assumes the general publics' basic understanding of these words - a gay man is one who is sexually and romantically attracted to men, and vice versa - and would certainly agree that sexualities are more complex than this.

Yes, in Playing It Straight, Gay = homosexual, and Straight = heterosexual - and, in conflating these terms, Zoe's left with little option but to employ indicators of perceived lifestyle (Gay/Straight) to identify actual sexual orientation (homosexual/heterosexual). She's then criticised for so doing.

But they so rarely do. It would be interesting viewing for sure, but in reality tv terms not at all standard. They don't show us how they pick the people for Wife Swap or Big Brother, or discuss how they find and assess candidates for How Clean is Your House or Supernanny. All of these programmes have, to my mind, candidates with potential social, emotional and/or mental health issues and the "working" is never shown to us. A criticism for sure, but not one that can be solely laid at the feet of this programme.

I didn't say it could. In the above examples, the programmes are not based around a central 'using your skills of deduction, detect the presence or absence of X' challenge. If they were, I'd expect at least some indication of the methods used to establish whether X were present or absent - otherwise, how to we know whether the game has been won or lost?

I agree with this, and the Rules listed on the programmes website certainly only cover the "in-game" conditions. Like I said above though, we rarely get to see the selection process, partly I believe because the programme makers don't like to give "clues" to potential future applicants as to how to successfully audition.

But, in this case, not explaining the selection process reduces the whole thing to a game of "guess what so-and-so said during our audition". It invalidates the whole element of skill/intuition.

Oh, I would doubt it too. I think they probably just went for the two primary "types" of sexuality, cashing in on the metrosexual tag while they can. Not the most sensitive programming, and certainly not as ground-breaking as the programme makers would have us believe. I just don't think it is a problem to narrow it down in this fashion, it isn't saying (explicitly) that these are the only two types of male sexuality.

Not explicitly, no, but in only allowing the two primary types, it is not permitting the possibility of more subtle shades - and, given that the individuals selected do not fit conventional stereotypes (and we're given little or no insight into the selection process), it's rather fatuous to assume they fit straightforwardly into the polar opposite sexual orientation. I do find that problematic.

I think the idea that the contestants can only win the money by promoting straightness - either by choosing it (Zoe) or making someone believe you are it (the male contestants) - is far more problematic than the issue of defining Gay and Straight. The message is be straight-acting = win, and I think that, alongside the ridiculous stereotyping and puns contained in the programme, pretty awful.

That's true. From what I've read, the gay(-identifying) contestants were actually taught 'straight-acting' techniques.

Fundamentally, I think I basically agree with you, except that I don't find it problematic that the programme is based on two 'types' of sexuality. Definitions of those sexualities from the programme makers would certainly be a welcome addition, but I'm not holding my breath.

Me neither. I guess I'm finding it annoying that C4 seems to be having its cake and eating it too, in that it's deriving laffs-a-plenty from simplistic stereotyping while claiming to be breaking down simplistic stereotyping.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
16:44 / 25.04.05
I guess I'm finding it annoying that C4 seems to be having its cake and eating it too, in that it's deriving laffs-a-plenty from simplistic stereotyping while claiming to be breaking down simplistic stereotyping.

So you don't think that by deriving these "laffs" (mostly at Zoe's expense I feel) from the simplistic stereotypes they are also showing that the stereotypes aren't as simple as Zoe previously believed?

In fact she was doing so badly they brought in two more guys (again I expect the split was 50/50 with them as well but the one who was evicted this week wasn't allowed to say what sexuality he was... which I didn't quite understand).

By identifying and choosing the simplistic stereotypes that Zoe was aware of (hair straightners/copious amounts of shoes) she evicted two straight men. In fact the only way she's managed to evict anyone who is gay is on a much better understanding of whether she feels that they're lying or not.
Eventually this will be all about her ability to detect falsehoods as opposed to the evil-money-grabbing-homo.
I hope.
 
 
Ganesh
17:19 / 25.04.05
So you don't think that by deriving these "laffs" (mostly at Zoe's expense I feel) from the simplistic stereotypes they are also showing that the stereotypes aren't as simple as Zoe previously believed?

No, I absolutely don't. I feel that explanation falls down because

a) they haven't established that the Straights are straight (only straight-identifying in the audition context) and the Gays are gay (only gay-identifying in the audition context), so Zoe may well be correct in her guesses,

b) providing a false Gay/Straight dichotomy reinforces categorical stereotypes rather than challenging them,

and

c) we've no idea that "Zoe previously believed" zealously in the concept of gaydar, but has been shoehorned into a situation where she's forced to rely on stereotypical assumptions because she has no other means of determining who ticked which box in the audition context.

As I say, if Zoe had been filmed beforehand claiming, "I can sniff a poof at fifty yards, I can" then perhaps things would seem a little less unfair. As it is, she seems to be being used to (spuriously) disprove a point she never made in the first place.

(But you know all this, RawkusBoi. I've said it all several times already.)

By identifying and choosing the simplistic stereotypes that Zoe was aware of (hair straightners/copious amounts of shoes) she evicted two straight men.

Or, more accurately (since we have no idea of the selection process), she evicted two men who identified themselves, to the programme makers, as Straight. Whether they actually are straight (or heterosexual), is anyone's guess. Zoe's "simplistic stereotypes" (and how would you have worked out whether they were gay-identifying or not, RawkusBoi?) may well be more accurate than the two contestants concerned are yet aware.
 
  

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