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Shouldn't we have laws against witchcraft?

  
  

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moriarty
16:20 / 14.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
I'd like to address the fear and paranoia that you mentioned as being brought to the forefront of this discussion (which I think your suggestions for defense helped address wonderfully and practically). I don't think it was anyone's intention to breed fear but to discuss the nature of how societal systems could be (and in my examples, have been) implemented to deal with magical attack if it happened to be, or at least perceived as, a real threat to that society.
[ 14-09-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]


Thank you. As the person who was supposedly bringing this fear and paranoia to the table, I appreciate your words.

I took great offense to some of the posts made after mine, and decided to leave the conversation before I said something rash. I pointed out my relative lack of knowledge on the subject for many reasons.

For one, it was stated in this thread and in the one that spawned it, that magick could and has been used by members of this board to influence or attack individuals. For this reason I believed that it was not an exercise in futility, as was stated by Ierne, but rather something that was within the realms of possiblity. Please, if I am wrong and I am to disbelieve a large amount of members of this board and their assertion that they could and would or have done harm to people through magick, wouldn't it be wiser to point this out to me instead of using my post as a launching point for a lambasting of this discussion?

I also pointed out my minimal magick association in a bid to ask for further information and discussion on this topic, not to be shut out entirely. Ignorance is not something I have ever been ashamed of. Only the lack of a willingless on my part to correct that ignorance, something which I don't believe I am guilty of in this case.

Finally, my fear was fueled by the messages of a large number of people in this community and their statements in this and the previous thread. If they were based on ignorance and/or misinformation then please feel free to correct my assumptions. But do not assume that because I am not an intimate member of your community that my additon to the discussion does nothing to help the debate or turns it into something less serious. My concerns were, based on what I had read, quite real. And as a member of the world, one in which Magick exists and can affect my life, I believe I have as much right as anyone to enter this discussion and learn from it, despite my shortcomings.
 
 
Naked Flame
20:51 / 14.09.01
you can't rule against magic. it would be like passing a law against the moon. a law is a logical statement, IF x THEN y. magic has none of this simple cause and effect stuff to hang laws on. It's trickling down the walls the whole time even if you had no idea it was there and you were involved with it.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
23:24 / 14.09.01
HOLD YOUR TONGUE MAN.(or WOMAN)

Don't mention the 'Trickling down the walls' thing or else the religious right is gonna see us as a bunch of Clive Barker worshipping pinheaded necromancers who are bent on destroying wall paper everywhere.

Sorry. That was my pathetic attempt at a levity break.



[ 15-09-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Naked Flame
15:40 / 15.09.01
Then I'll definitely keep quiet about the goats.
 
 
The Damned Yankee
10:00 / 18.09.01
"How do you know she's a witch?"

"She turned me into a newt!"

"A newt?"

". . . I got better."

  
 
Suffocate
23:56 / 19.09.01
Now that things have come under the Rule of the Era of Silly...

I was always under the impression that magick (with a capital or without, with a K or without, etc, etc) was something that could only be successfully performed once Ego is obliterated, even if only momentarily. To "fire off a spell" meant meditating on the system of the universe as a whole, on your intent, on its effects, on its cause, and rising above ideas of good and evil to plug yourself into the undercurrent of existence itself...

I think it was Crowley who best summed up why "evil" or "black" magic is impossible (and this is not a direct quote): if a person wishes for harm to befall someone else, in the process of empowering themselves for the act of casting something nasty at that person, they must rise up to a certain spiritual level - and in doing so, transcend any reason for causing harm in the first place.

I'm still slightly under that impression, even though experience has proven that acts "not entirely wholesome" can be performed. But if the universe doesn't want an event to occur, does it have a better chance of blocking magick than blocking you from walking out of your front door with an axe?
 
 
Rev. Jesse
17:17 / 20.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Suffocate:
Now that things have come under the Rule of the Era of Silly...

I was always under the impression that magick was something that could only be successfully performed once Ego is obliterated....

But you can obliterate your ego with anger very easily. If an "egoless" state was the only time magic worked, and if this state prohibited emotional content, then most lust and attraction magic would fail too. The secret in a violent magic attack would be to build up the anger and violence in oneself to overwhelm the ego.

quote:
But if the universe doesn't want an event to occur, does it have a better chance of blocking magick than blocking you from walking out of your front door with an axe?

I think among all spiritualists, the magician cares the least for what the universe wants. In fact, the case could be made that the magician intently attempts to subvert said universe's desires.

-Jesse
 
 
Suffocate
01:22 / 21.09.01
I'm not quite sure that I agree with the opinion that magicians seek to "subvert said universe's desires"

My path toward Magick came purely as the need to understand and learn the desires of the universe. Granted, I do seek to increase the power and responsibility of my role within the universe, but I hardly see any point to subverting it - nor do I see that it would be possible. The universe/multiverse/whatever is infinite and all-encompassing and it follows that it can't be tricked.

While any emotion can be used to "power up" an individual, is it really enough to warrant success? Does magick require training of the body and mind, or can it be performed by anyone with a bad temper or love sickness?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
02:00 / 21.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Suffocate:
I think it was Crowley who best summed up why "evil" or "black" magic is impossible (and this is not a direct quote): if a person wishes for harm to befall someone else, in the process of empowering themselves for the act of casting something nasty at that person, they must rise up to a certain spiritual level - and in doing so, transcend any reason for causing harm in the first place.


There are lots of cultures and magical paradigms that don't work that way. They usually consider what they are doing 'justice' for a slight (real or not). Shit, almost every magical tradition has some form of 'hex' or 'curse' as part of their lore and history.

And, Crowley was certainly being a bit hypocritical there (or trying to depower potential threats). Look at the history of the last days of the Golden Dawn with the different factions, magical 'warfare' that went on, etc. Crowley was right in the thick of that. Yeats was continually under the impression that Crowley was attacking him.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
02:11 / 21.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Suffocate:

While any emotion can be used to "power up" an individual, is it really enough to warrant success? Does magick require training of the body and mind, or can it be performed by anyone with a bad temper or love sickness?

Shamanically, yes. Most 'soul theft' and 'spiritual intrusions' that occur in our culture (which along with animal spirit retrieval are the most common things dealt with in shamanism today) are caused by people that used to be close to the victim and don't consciously know they're doing it.

Say that someone's been in an extremely co-dependent relationship. Spiritual bonds have been created and when the relationship ends maybe one or both people don't let go completely and a small (or large) piece of the person's 'soul' is stolen.

Focused anger is a great way to send an intrusion into someone you used to be close to and growing magicians need to be especially aware of who they are angry at and how they may be focusing that anger.

That's one of the reasons why shamanic practitioners focus more on restoring balance than imposing 'justice'. In a situation where both people were hurt and the 'perpetrator' didn't know they did anything to the 'victim' then it's more important to heal the entire situation than to get revenge.

This isn't to say that everytime someone gets angry magical attacks occur just that they can happen, usually when two people are or have been very intimate.
 
 
Suffocate
05:11 / 21.09.01
Now it's all sounding like mumbo jumbo. Do we really need to start calling post-break-up blues "soul-stealing"? (I realise putting it this way sounds more extreme than what you were suggesting, but it's the same point)

Where are we going to draw the line between carefully document psychological reactions and magickal effect?

You've got me on the hex thing though Bleedin' 'eck
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
12:59 / 21.09.01
Post break up blues aren't 'Soul stealing' it's just one drastic example of how in everyday western culture subconscious psychic/magical attack can happen. This isn't something people should worry about happening everytime they have a spat with a lover or whatever.

Shamanic practitioners get only a small percentage of people crossing their doors for problems, it's not like we're booked 8-5 five days a week. I haven't seen any studies but I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 1-2% of people breaking up with their significant others that seek out spiritual help with it. The rest either deal, wallow, or go to traditional counselling.

One last thing from another tradition. A Mayombero that I know says that there is a saying in Palo Mayombe that translates roughly into 'Don't ever feel you are invincible because even a little child can destroy you'. This is in reference to the intense powerful emotions that children can feel and how if focused correctly can be more powerful than the most intricate magics.

(of course now I'm afraid people are going to think that I'm now saying that children are magically dangerous... take it in context people.)

[ 21-09-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Suffocate
23:36 / 23.09.01
Oh no, don't think you can calm us down now! We've seen Children of the Corn, you know!
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
12:25 / 24.09.01
Malachai was a scary fucker wasn't he.
 
  

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