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Shouldn't we have laws against witchcraft?

 
  

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SMS
22:01 / 06.09.01
Assuming magic can indeed be used to harm people, shouldn't we have laws forbidding its use for this purpose?
 
 
nul
22:11 / 06.09.01
Yes. We should also have laws against plucking the wings off fairies and post-life trauma-inducing terrorism, too.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:14 / 06.09.01
HOW ABOUT a law against idiots in POWER while we're at it!!!
 
 
Ria
22:23 / 06.09.01
might as well outlaw, say, fire. or language. which can harm people too.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:50 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by SMatthewStolte:
Assuming magic can indeed be used to harm people, shouldn't we have laws forbidding its use for this purpose?


Laws like that scare the hell out of me because how would you be able to prove anything?
Governments and Catholocism has been trying to take the power of 'magic' out of the hands of the people for centuries. For example, it was illegal until very recently to own a drum in Russia (or all of what used to be the U.S.S.R) because the government was afraid of the political power that the shamans held within their tribes.

And I certainly have no urge to have my government believe in the existence of magic so that they can create laws, and potentially new inquisitions.

Here's an interesting quote from I. Bonewits in the last chapter of 'Real Magic':
"I am not as much of a radical as I perhaps used to be, but I do believe that the final battles for human freedom and survival may very well be fought, not by soldiers and diplomats, but by magicians and psychics, witches and wizards, zen masters and taoist sages, sorcerers and shamans. And the war will probably not be a matter of competing governments, but of individuals of all nations seeking to defend themselves against their own would-be rulers."

I'd rather be a part of a magical 'neighborhood watch' than give that judicial power to our governments.
 
 
SMS
01:38 / 07.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Kriztalyne:
might as well outlaw, say, fire. or language. which can harm people too.


I wasn't suggesting outlawing magic. Just particular uses of it. Like, for instance, murder.

quote:Originally posted by Brendan Simpson:
Yes. We should also have laws against plucking the wings off fairies and post-life trauma-inducing terrorism, too.

Perhaps a separate tribunal, consisting of distinct godforms and servitors, could be established. I can see difficulty with this, but, in the end, no more difficult than establishing an earthly system.

Lothar, I have the same concerns regarding government interference, but I'm not sure that a neighborhood watch is sufficient, or would necessarily be just. Surely, you have a better idea than I do regarding things magical, but it seems to me that there could be very serious problems with a system like this. Firstly, most magical actions probably aren't largely recognized as such by the general populace. If a member of my family comes down with a terrible illness, it probably wouldn't occur to me that someone may have cursed hir. So, most magicians should be able to get away with crimes without anyone knowing that a crime was even committed. Second, the most immediately obvious form of justice is an eye for an eye. And if people are left free to do this, I don't see anything stopping them from degenerating into an astral lynch mob.
 
 
A
01:57 / 07.09.01
Laws, eh?
The good people don't need them and the bad people don't follow them, so what use are they.
Making something illegal really just means making something punishable. If someone can actually kill people with magic, are YOU going to try to punish them?
good luck.
adam
 
 
Saint Keggers
02:03 / 07.09.01
There is a law against it..Karma.
I dont fuck around with someone else cause I know it'll just rise up later and kick me in the ass.
 
 
SMS
02:12 / 07.09.01
Well, here's my theory on laws. It's pretty easy to get away with some crimes if you go about it the right way. Murder, for instance, is very difficult to prosecute if you can't find the body. But that's not quite the issue. I think the legal system becomes useful when you consider the individual's place in the larger social organism. When people are consistently punished for particular actions, a signal spreads out over the culture that this action gives you low status, and makes you useless as a part of the organism. In addition to this, it gives people a sense of security. So you don't have to make up your own sense of security, like, for instance, killing anyone who fucks with you or your family. So I think laws are useful.

As far as whether I'M going to punish these people, no. That's not my job, nor do I think it should be the job of any individual person. But I don't think the fact that some magician may actually be able to kill others with magic is a good reason for everyone to simply hide and let him go about his business.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
02:20 / 07.09.01
quote:Originally posted by SMatthewStolte:

Lothar, I have the same concerns regarding government interference, but I'm not sure that a neighborhood watch is sufficient, or would necessarily be just. Surely, you have a better idea than I do regarding things magical, but it seems to me that there could be very serious problems with a system like this. Firstly, most magical actions probably aren't largely recognized as such by the general populace. If a member of my family comes down with a terrible illness, it probably wouldn't occur to me that someone may have cursed hir. So, most magicians should be able to get away with crimes without anyone knowing that a crime was even committed. Second, the most immediately obvious form of justice is an eye for an eye. And if people are left free to do this, I don't see anything stopping them from degenerating into an astral lynch mob.


By 'neighborhood watch' I meant less of a mob and more of the people integrating these beliefs into their lifestyles. Part of that is recognizing that magic may be used effectively for the benefit and detriment of other people.

Traditionally, magical 'crime' is usually dealt with by a spiritual 'expert' such as a shaman in shamanic societies or curanderos in current Mexican society, the Bon-po and Bom-bo in the Kathmandu valley are the ones to go to when one is the victim of a Bokshi (evil sorcerer that can be anywhere from a spiritual version of a 'petty theif' to a 'murderer' or 'rapist').

Current Mexican indigenous culture is the best example in that people believe in witchcraft and that they can be the recipients of it. They also realize that the government is the last people they can trust with such authority and power. For those and many other reasons (religious persecution being number one) they deny the existence of 'witchcraft' to those same authorities.

Instead, when witchcraft occurs they seek the restoration of proper balance from their local curandero. Someone who knows the community because he lives in it and can not only 'cure' the hex but can also try and provide societal 'healing' between the aggrieved parties. Again, if the curandero doesn't have a good success rate in this and other healing, he's not going to stay a curandero for very long.

Also, someone like this would be able to look into the matter and discover whether or not the 'hex' was actually just for some other wrong that had been unaddressed.

All of this returns to people being aware and responsible within their communities but if a community doesn't believe in magic then it'll be hard for a curandero/shaman/magician etc. to serve them. If there can't even be a few people to take those roles then the idea of getting laws passed and government agencies involved is definitely unlikely.

Also, 'experts' like those mentioned above would find it very hard to be subserviant to a set of human laws or beauracracies. The spirits' and deities' (especially those that the community acknowledges collectively) wishes take precedence.

I'm definitely in favor of justice and for accountability for magical crime but I would rather see the community itself take that responsibility in ways that have worked in the past then try and force magical justice to fit within the framework of secular justice. Secular justice systems are all about evidence and proving it to a jury of your peers. The whole system is incompatible with what happens with magical attacks.

Let's say someone puts the bad mojo on someone and they die of what appears to be 'whooping cough' or they step blindly out into traffic to get mowed down by a car.

Now you (the hypothetical you who just lost the above loved one) suspect sorcery. Maybe you go to a Santero or other 'magician' and they do their divinations and determine that yup, the bad mojo got thrown down.

Now, how do you go about proving this? How do you go about convincing authorities that murder is even a possibility?

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
02:23 / 07.09.01
quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
There is a law against it..Karma.
I dont fuck around with someone else cause I know it'll just rise up later and kick me in the ass.


Lots of cultures don't believe in Karma, which technically deals with reincarnation, intricacies of Dharma, and many dogmas within the various Hindu sects, not justice within this life.
 
 
Saint Keggers
13:54 / 07.09.01
You dont have to believe in a brick to bleed when it hits you.
 
 
nul
15:04 / 07.09.01
You don't have to hear a scary story to be frightened by the unknown, either.
 
 
Ierne
16:19 / 07.09.01
Very interesting how the title of this thread suggests there should be laws against witchcraft...while the first post uses the more general term magic. They aren't interchangeable – Witchcraft is only one type of Magick (and NOT one that advocates using the magickal force specifically to damage other people).
 
 
Jack Fear
16:21 / 07.09.01
"Magic doesn't kill people--people kill people!"

Where's the magickal equivalent of Charlton Heston when you really need him?
 
 
nul
16:22 / 07.09.01
Main Entry: witch·craft
Pronunciation: 'wich-"kraft
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
1 a : the use of sorcery or magic b : communication with the devil or with a familiar
2 : an irresistible influence or fascination
3 : WICCA

Just because the Wiccans decided to steal the term and use it to identify themselves does not nessecarily imply that is the only meaning nor the popularly accepted meaning.
 
 
Ierne
16:32 / 07.09.01
I did not mention Wicca at all in my post. My point was that SMatthewStolte should be consistent with terminology.
 
 
nul
16:43 / 07.09.01
Why? Witchcraft, as we see above, is the term we may use to apply to the use of magic and/or sorcery. Laws against witchcraft and laws against magic could be considered the same thing, if we accept the popular definition of witchcraft to be the use of magic.

Then again, I just like being bothersome.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:33 / 07.09.01
Hey... weren't secular Laws against "witchcraft" attempted in Salem MASS. some several 100 years ago?

not much success...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:39 / 07.09.01
quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
You dont have to believe in a brick to bleed when it hits you.


Nope that rock'll hurt, but there's a couple points about karma. 1) by definition, it can't be proven or to some degree even personally detected until you break out of Maya. The perpetrator and victim have no sense of justice being served unless they happen to subscribe to that religious viewpoint and take it on faith. and:

2) karma is not about being punished or rewarded for actions, it's a very complex system of cause and effect that is intertwined with dharma. Remember, in the Mahabharata Arjuna was told by Krishna that it was his dharma to slaughter his cousins and friends that were fighting against him. He would receive bad karma by *avoiding* the slaughter. He received good karma and was blessed by the gods for engaging in the slaughter without self-doubt.

Even the Rakshas in Hindu lore can have good karma. It's their dharma to be evil demon bastards.
 
 
Ganesh
23:00 / 07.09.01
Bring back the ducking-stool, that's what I say...
 
 
SMS
23:15 / 07.09.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
Hey... weren't secular Laws against "witchcraft" attempted in Salem MASS. some several 100 years ago?

not much success...


The title of the topic is intentional, to invoke images of Salem witchcraft trials. But I still felt that, logically, there needed to be a justice system that covered this particular area.
 
 
Ierne
13:34 / 09.09.01
The title of the topic is intentional, to invoke images of Salem witchcraft trials. – SMatthewStolte

Perhaps it will help somewhat if I share a couple of links concerning the "witchcraft" trials at Salem.

And in case all one's information of the aforementioned trials comes from Arthur Miller's The Crucible, I've included this link as well.

Such laws as SMatthewStolte seems to think are necessary never worked in the past and will not work in the future. They would, far from applying "logic" to the situation, only bring hysteria, scapegoating and bloodshed.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
SMS
14:39 / 09.09.01
To be clear, when I said a justice system, I didn't mean specifically secular justice. I would include Lothar's suggestion in the category as well.
 
 
SMS
14:42 / 09.09.01
To be clear, when I said 'justice,' I didn't necessarily mean secular. One of my suggestions was to carry it out on the magical plane. Lothar's suggestion also fits into the category.
 
 
Rev. Jesse
02:55 / 10.09.01
This is absurd.

Considering that a great deal of magic can be done in the astral temple, it would be very difficult to prove any such activity. Any law against astral magic would either be impotent or far too arbitrary and would lead to kangaroo courts.

Furthermore, since the Wiccans have co-opted witchcraft, any law against it or other magic idea-patterns could be thrown out here in the states because of the separation of church and state. The magic vocabulary used to define such a law could easily spun into a religious debate. Further Considering that a number of politically active conservative religious groups here in the states that regularly and publicly pray for the demise of "baby killers" could be tried under a witchcraft law, no such law would be feasible, at least here.

(as an aside, it is interesting to note that while in the past, religions hunted down magicians, now the same laws that protect said religions protect the magician as well)

Most successful magicians are smart, smart enough that they could cover their tracks. I would theorize that only the most successful and powerful magician could create a magical death.

Consider that if a magician could orchestrate a death, then magical jury tampering might be easy.

If we, as SMatthew and Lothar suggest, dismiss our secular justice system, we still face the same issues, how do you prove it? I probably would not be able to detect a "magical resonance" of any magician expect those few I may have worked closely with. How many magicians could detect such a resonance and determine the culprit of a magically induced death, esp. if the culprit was unknown. How sure could you be?

What would we do to punish a magical murder anyway? Secular authorities have their own punishments but what would we do if we ran with the "magic neighborhood watch" idea, then their are few options. A magical attack in kind would be foolhardy and very very dangerous. If the person was capable of death at a distance, I would not want to endanger myself with an attack that could be traced. I think the best option to punish a magical murder with a "dusting." A dusting is what certain phisheads do to people that piss them off, it is a gram of powdered LSD blown into someone's face. Even then there is the possibility of a counter attack.


That having been said, if I knew someone seriously hurt a friend or family member, I would probably lash out with whatever I had. I just don't think it there should be an orgainized orthodoxy of magical dos and don'ts w/ a bunch of secert chiefs overseeing it.

-Jesse
 
 
Rev. Jesse
03:03 / 10.09.01
PS

I think we would be using our resources far better if we taught every child a banishing rite than if we organized magical defense squads.

Just a thought,

-Jesse
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:09 / 10.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Rev. Jesse:
PS

I think we would be using our resources far better if we taught every child a banishing rite than if we organized magical defense squads.

Just a thought,

-Jesse


I think that's a great idea. The 'community watch' that I was mentioning above, in my opinion, only works in relatively small communities (as in current Mexican villages) and would only have a chance of working in real life implementation in places like the U.S. or the U.K. if we took a more 'anti-federalist' attitude with it. Even then it would be tough since no one will agree to believe in magic and/or religion the same way.

The key element (and the really hard part in our society) being that the community itself would have to have a general consensus of what is 'crime' and what 'punishments' are appropriate.

The curandero/shaman/magus/mailed fist of the jello god acts as the person who implements the will of the community not a secret chief.

In the shamanism that is currently practiced among the Tamang of Nepal, the issue of objective proof is interesting. Most of the 'crimes' are dealt with in non-ordinary reality (call it the astral plane if you wish) while the healing and restoration of balance is dealt with in both non-ordinary and ordinary reality.

For example (bear with me... it's a long one), someone is experiencing major soul loss. They can't perform their job duties properly, their personal relationships are falling apart, and they seem incredibly prone to sickness. They go to the local bombo (shaman) and the bombo journeys for them. The Bombo discovers in journey that the person's brother is insanely jealous of the victims spouse, job, whatever and has become a 'bokshi' (kind of an evil practitioner and/or host for evil spirits) to gain revenge.

This bokshi has done a ritual and has stolen one of the victims souls and is holding it until death occurs (maybe due to illness, suicide, or just inattention while working with sharp harvesting tools) at which point he will still have the soul as his slave.

Now, no court of law will take that as proper evidence for a conviction but the bombo (and his community) has complete faith in his spirits and in what he is shown in journey so, he goes to confront the bokshi in non-ord. reality to get the soul back.

Through bargaining, confrontation, and/or threatening, the bombo gets the soul back and calls upon certain gods such as Ghang Selmo, Gezer Gyalpo, and Shiva. Shiva is the important one here (the Tamang have a syncretization of Hindu and indigenous gods) because if a person or spirit says that they will do, or refrain from doing, something seven times in front of Shiva and then FAILS to do so. Shiva will come down hard and destroy the person's life.

The soul is returned to the victim in both non-ordinary reality and also with an elaborate ritual involiving family, friends, neighbors etc. Then protection may or may not be given to the person to prevent such a thing from happening again.

The only 'ordinary' punishment that is leveled on the bokshi is sometimes exile if the persons everyday actions are causing major disruptions in the community. Otherwise it is left to the gods to mete out punishment.

The above example also brings with it a HUGE element of consensual religion on the part of everyone involved but within those parameters it makes sense in that they leave the punishment up to those best able to deal with it in a just fashion: Shiva and his agents. Shiva will do what is right and human error won't muck things up.
 
 
moriarty
13:58 / 10.09.01
quote:Originally posted by SMatthewStolte:
Assuming magic can indeed be used to harm people, shouldn't we have laws forbidding its use for this purpose?


Italics mine.

Most of the posts so far are taking a stance against regulation for Magick in general, while the original point, and the one I think most people would have a problem with, is that of doing harm to others. I have no problem with people using Magick for personal self-improvement, exploration, or any number of other worthwhile pursuits. But quite a few people on this board have admitted that Magick can be used against people, or have taken it a step further and said that they have or would use Magick to affect somebody's life.

I have no previous experience with Magick, and I have no defences against it. I believe wholly in your right to practice Magick. Yet, the idea that I could be helping a customer at where I work and inadvertently piss him off, and be punished for some imagined slight terrifies me.

I can't say I've thought the discussion through far enough to determine what my stance on regulation would be. My conscience tells me that it would be an affront on the freedom of many law-abiding Magick users to begin making laws specifically tailored to Magick, since one law would undoubtedly lead to other restrictions. But my fear tells me different.
 
 
Ierne
16:21 / 10.09.01
I have no previous experience with Magick...I can't say I've thought the discussion through far enough to determine what my stance on regulation would be... – moriarty

Most people who have no previous experience and knowledge of magic tend to have fears of others using magic for harm. The reality is that it's really rather useless, time/energy wasting and stupid to try and hurt someone using magic. Far easier to get a gun and shoot someone.

It's getting very difficult to take this topic seriously.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:52 / 10.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:

Most people who have no previous experience and knowledge of magic tend to have fears of others using magic for harm. The reality is that it's really rather useless, time/energy wasting and stupid to try and hurt someone using magic. Far easier to get a gun and shoot someone.

It's getting very difficult to take this topic seriously.


Good point. Thank you for the voice of context. So that I don't add more fuel to the fear fire by citing anthropological example after example I'll shut up after this post.

I think that, especially, in this culture, magic for the use of harm is low powered and hard to do. I think a lot of it has to do with the cultural ontologies and what people believe in.

My last example - Anyone who's interested in the extent that Mexican culture believes in the danger of 'witchcraft' and the nature of justice outside of western ideals should read "A War of Witches" by anthropologist Timothy Knab. In it he details out a war (over plantation land around the Pueblo area during the coffee boom of the late 1800s) between land owners and their hired 'witches'. Over 100 people died from various 'magic', some of which was plain old assassination using herbs, poisons, etc. but as far as their culture believes, they were all killed by 'witchcraft'.

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Rex City-zen
18:41 / 10.09.01
Did you know that in ontario it is only illegal to pretend to perform witchcraft...so if it doesn't work then it's off to the clink I guess?
 
 
Rev. Jesse
01:58 / 14.09.01
Some quick thoughts on psychic/magical attacks, defense, and the general line of this thread.

First, let me be clear with is a psychic attack. A psychic attack is most commonly an attempt to circumvent and damage another’s Will, self-image, or what-have-you and thusly affect the target’s actions. This attack on self-image and create self-destructive urges within the target. While there are other, more direct attacks wherein a magician attempts to create direct harm, but I believe these to be less common and less effective, these direct attacks are not the focus of this article. Working from this definition, we can categorize sexual assaults, brainwashing, and psychological manipulations as psychic assaults. The defenses a magician uses against magical attacks should also be effective against these, more mundane attacks.

Having established that most psychic attacks are focused on changing the Will of the target, we can now examine effective responses against these attacks. These defenses should focus on reinforcing the positive aspects of the target’s personality in order to drown out alien self-destructive urges. In reaction to an attack on one’s self image, I would advice the target to move into safe areas, where one feels most comfortable, wear clothes that make them feel comfortable and powerful, do things they feel good doing and commit themselves to a regular regime of banishing rites.

Banishing rites are intended to make one feel safe and powerful. The magician is taught that by using banishing rites, he removes alien influences from his sphere, but really he is in fact bolstering his own ego by pretending that he has the power to dispose of such things. Considering this, I would advise anyone who believes themselves to be under psychic attack defend with the banishing rite they feel most comfortable and powerful with. While special use pentagrams have their purpose, for example Chaos-vowel based ones for linguistic rites and spiral pentagrams for Erisian magic, I feel most comfortable with the G.D.’s LBRP, so when my ego needs a upper, I resort to good-old Adonai vibrations.

The rule in defense is self-empowerment.

(one caveat: when at all possible, break off all contact with the attacker. If this is not possible, use all available means, including but not limited to magic, to move him out of your world.)

Now then, I have some problems with the theories of this post. One is that by making psychic attackers come to the mental forefront of our little group, we increase the belief in attacks and the power of attackers. For example, Joe Barbelith might read our discussion regarding psychic attack and think “Well, gee, should I be worried about this?” This could lead to unnecessary fear, paranoia and other negative emotions. Furthermore, the focus on retaliation against the attacker is also misguided as, in addition to the dangers of attacking a strong attacker that I have already discussed, any efforts spent attacking represent energy that could be better used defending and bolstering one’s self-image. Furthermore, the suggestion that one is under attack can also be seen as a weakness in and of itself since it means that the target’s psychic defenses could not deflect the attack.

In conclusion, I recently (yesterday) found a book by Dion Fortune entitled Psychic Self-Defense, an interesting synchronicity. I have not read it yet, but I will inform you all of its impact on my theories and defenses. Notably, it does say it has a section on determining if you are under a magical attack, something I am ignorant of.

Feel free to comment on my thoughts.

-Jesse
 
 
SMS
02:38 / 14.09.01
Thank you. This was, I think, some of the most useful information given in this thread.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:37 / 14.09.01
Jesse,

Excellent post on psychic defense. It's especially useful for thaumaturgic attack. Theurgic attack brings a couple additional variables into the 'will of the defender against the will of the attacker' equation but still a good idea for defense. Self-empowerment, as you said, is the best defense.

I'd like to address the fear and paranoia that you mentioned as being brought to the forefront of this discussion (which I think your suggestions for defense helped address wonderfully and practically). I don't think it was anyone's intention to breed fear but to discuss the nature of how societal systems could be (and in my examples, have been) implemented to deal with magical attack if it happened to be, or at least perceived as, a real threat to that society.

Which just for the record, I don't think is necessary in our society (I think that, as far as my magical security goes, things are just fine as they are) my 'tribal' idea and examples stemmed from explaining that if the society I lived in deemed it necessary, I'd rather help shoulder that responsibility among my fellow citizens than give that power to a government agency. Magical libertarianism if you will. The form of that responsibility need not follow past examples but by studying what has been done, to varying degrees of success, by other cultures in the past we could better come up with our own theoretical solutions for the future.

Before every child could be taught a form of banishing rite (as you suggest in an above post) their parents would have to believe in magic. This takes discussion, understanding, and education which inevitably will provoke the first stage of 'fear' about magical attack (i.e., "What? You mean magic is real? Doesn't that mean that someone could whammy me?"). This popped up on a small level in this thread. That education and discussion shouldn't be about spreading paranoia but about empowering people. I think both you and Ierne have helped shift the discussion into that, healthier, arena.

As for the focus being on retaliation, a few people have talked about that, but the main focus in the examples that I cited was for 'the restoration of balance'. First within the victim (healing, enhanced defense) and then within the community by addressing the state of the body politic. In some extreme cases that may involve retaliation but in others it would be about mediation.

Dion Fortune's book is pretty good but it has a few major biases. The first being that everything goes through the filter of her flavor of Western Magical Tradition (which is also of a decided Judeo/Christian bent). Everything outside of her tradition is seen as inferior, misguided, or evil. Here's a quote that exemplifies her biases: "It may safely be said that the Unseen is only evil and inimical to humanity when it has been corrupted and perverted by the activities of those unscrupulous men and women, who initiates call adepts of the Left-hand path."

The second problem is that she engages in exactly the type of paranoia breeding you cautioned against in the last few chapters of her book by detailing out the conspiracy of Black lodges made up of these 'Adepts of the Left-hand path' and the 'Occult Police' and 'Hunting Lodges' that are dedicated to bringing down their darkness and fighting against them. Hell, this Occult police force is so powerful that anyone who needs them can contact them through the use of a simple visualization.

In her mind, this was a real and ongoing dualistic shadow war with a 'we are good' 'they are evil' focus.

Once you separate her own mythology and paradigm from the raw technique and info it's a good, albeit much smaller, book.

For specific psychic self-defense techniques, I'd recommend "Real Magic" by Isaac Bonewits (this guy should pay me for recommending his book ). He's got his own biases but he gives more concrete techniques to try and his biases aren't quite as... dramatic as Fortunes. He also has chapter about 'good' and 'evil' groups and how in his experience they all do the same sorts of things and are all people with their own agendas.

[ 14-09-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
  

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