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Can you stop it just by not believing in it?

 
  

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Unconditional Love
14:06 / 06.04.05
you could perhaps also stop it by emptying the self, meditation, simple self awareness, or perhaps even self sacrafice. or alliance as some seek to a greater power, wether that be higher or lower,dependent perception and instinctual reaction.
 
 
Seth
15:19 / 06.04.05
Re: concerning my earlier comment about thread derailment, I'll be extremely happy if people are reading the most recent exchanges with an eye to pulling out whatever learning they can concerning attack and defense.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
18:37 / 06.04.05
As for your claims of "frumpy" and "dispirited" you haven't posted any evidence yet.

You continue to supply all the evidence yourself, Seth. The specifics have been identified by your unconscious mind which eventually will get unearthed when the time is right. I sincerely doubt you will be able to get to it before it grows.

Most likely, the dreams will soften the realization.

The identity level attack was carefully designed to double bind by utilizing beliefs. Shady and unkind without justification? Sure. . . but it is possible that it was justified - for everyone, or maybe just some, to read between the lines, isn't it?

I'll go over specifics once things have either been discovered or grown to a size that it's undeniable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:29 / 06.04.05

You continue to supply all the evidence yourself, Seth. The specifics have been identified by your unconscious mind which eventually will get unearthed when the time is right. I sincerely doubt you will be able to get to it before it grows.


Mental. Mental. Mentalism.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
00:10 / 07.04.05
Nominal. Nominal. Nominalization.
 
 
electric monk
01:56 / 07.04.05
Kudos for the skillful attempt to put us back on track there, Seth, but I think this 'ere thread is a goner.

See? Look. [lifts up corner by the "Add Yr Reply" linky] We got us a serious case of Netaung Rot.

Haus, keep pokin' at it with that sharp thingie. It might dislodge yet.

*sigh* It was a good thread too.
 
 
Seth
04:36 / 07.04.05
Another poor use of psychology in your posts. Checking that you have rapport with my unconscious before you give it instructions is best practise.

I've checked. You don't.

I repeat: no evidence, no case, no helpful communication to anyone. You're going to need to get specific before I see you as anything other than a cautionary tale.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:46 / 07.04.05
You continue to supply all the evidence yourself, Seth. The specifics have been identified by your unconscious mind which eventually will get unearthed when the time is right. I sincerely doubt you will be able to get to it before it grows.

Look, when you know you can't win an argument the best thing to do is not to turn around to someone who has quite a clear view of the world and tell them that you have planted the seeds of change in them. That is because they generally know what the actual seeds of change are like and they definitely know when something isn't going to change them. You are not going to change any of us, never mind Seth. I doubt you could change Xyu (no offence Xyu) and he's very changeable. And that cryptic sentence at the end of that paragraph- what is that? It means nothing in the context of your post, never mind on its own! And you can't plant things in the unconscious mind through a few sentences on a message board unless someone says, ooh that's an interesting concept- but that's getting in to neuropsychology.

Anyway, I just thought you might like someone to explain that you're not fooling anyone. We all know you're just a bit confused.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:58 / 07.04.05
No, Nina. *You* are confused. And you will remain confused until you are ready to be cured. By my mentalism.
 
 
Seth
15:25 / 07.04.05
Nina: If Netaungrot had drawn attention to specifics in my posts that ze took issue with, made a straightforward case using those specifics, added some useful content to the thread and detailed some worthwhile ideas in plain terms, and through that discourse I found I wanted to change my mind on some issues...

...well, that'd be brilliant. I'm actually holding out some hope that might happen, I'm really curious about what ze actually thinks. I have no idea why ze thinks that plotting, insulting, cryptic appeals to my unconscious and pretense to know what's best for me are the best means of going about this.

So I have no objection to change. It's the bizarre cloak and dagger behaviour, the infantile Bandler wannabe tactics that I'm finding increasingly funny. Funny ha ha and funny peculiar. Netaungrot: are you just satirising what people believe about the Bandler-school of manipulative NLP for a laugh?
 
 
· N · E · T ·
19:42 / 07.04.05
Look, when you know you can't win an argument the best thing to do is not to turn around to someone who has quite a clear view of the world and tell them that you have planted the seeds of change in them.

You don't know what I'm capable of or what I think about my capabilities (wait! maybe you do! what's my middle name?) and I never claimed to plant anything in anyone. You seem very worried and out of your element, dear. Everything's going to be ok.

Funny ha ha and funny peculiar. . .

Another outcome down, 23 to go. . .

I have no idea why ze thinks that plotting, insulting, cryptic appeals to my unconscious and pretense to know what's best for me are the best means of going about this.

I never claimed to know what's best for you.

I'm also not going to kiss your ass for thinking you're stuck in a stuffy, hypocritical rut at the moment.

If you'd like, you could message me and we can resolve this issue without further detracting from the thread. Or it can just incubate until something more exciting happens. . .
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:25 / 07.04.05
You know 23 is a very important number?

Your middle name is... erm... hmmm... Bob.
 
 
Seth
05:46 / 08.04.05
The matter already is resolved to my satisfaction. Your claims are unsubstantiated, you've not backed up any of your assertions with reference to anything specific I've written. Your beliefs about me probably seem real to you, but they are false.

Meanwhile I've detailed the specifics of my objections to your behaviour, to which there has been no counter-argument on your part. Indeed, there has been next to nothing of content put forward on your part besides sniping, unthinking NLP sloganeering, outcomes which are at best poorly defined but more likely to be retconned fantasy, some of the worst execution of communication and ideas I've ever read on this site (which is an achievement) and some hilarious hamfisted amateur psychology.

A desire to take this to PMs fits in with your preference for secrecy, a pattern I have no intention of encouraging. I'm happy for you to send me everything you would otherwise send me in private on this thread. I'm still of the opinion that this is relevant to the subject of the thread if you choose to read it in that light. People can learn from our mistakes and notice what we do well.

You still have the chance to demonstrate from the text exactly how you have come to your conclusions. I'm afraid that will have to be done before anyone will give credence to you. At the moment I still have no real idea of the nature of your grievance with me and what I've written. I'll be happy to consider your ideas once you've written them here so I can read them.

Until that's done there's not much further we can go, which is why I'm happy to call it resolved as it stands.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:14 / 08.04.05
Ment it from his mind, Seth. Ment it from his mind or your NLP is weak.
 
 
Seth
07:49 / 08.04.05
I will not turn to the Dark Side!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:04 / 08.04.05
I wish I could stop threads on barbelith by just not believing in them.
 
 
illmatic
10:14 / 08.04.05
You seem very worried and out of your element, dear. Everything's going to be ok.

Interesting how "internalising the works of Robert Anton Wilson" (the posh phrase for mental-mental-mentalism) doesn't prevent you from indulging in the pernicious behaviour pattern of wanting to be right and have the last word. Erm, is that Circuit 1 or 2?

Seth: Great stuff on NLP in your posts. Worth reading the thread for.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:30 / 08.04.05
perhaps setting up an altar to james randi and other septics in general, a randi bhakti while performing cut ups with the sceptic inquirer and masterbating while repeating empire of empiricism evolved, but thats something everyone should do occasionally.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
17:28 / 08.04.05
Interesting how "internalising the works of Robert Anton Wilson" (the posh phrase for mental-mental-mentalism) doesn't prevent you from indulging in the pernicious behaviour pattern of wanting to be right and have the last word.

I don't know about you, gravy bum, but when people say something to me I like to respond to them. I never claimed to "internalise the works of RAW" either. Do tell, what is wrong with wanting to be right?

Your claims are unsubstantiated, you've not backed up any of your assertions with reference to anything specific I've written.

Frumpy:

There’s this unhealthy bonkers fallacy perpetuated by a lot of the CM crowd and NLP crowd, the kind of thing that you hear a lot of RAW acolytes spouting about, that you can change the software of your brain and upgrade, get the manual to your psyche or even download a new operating system, that beliefs are plug-in and play modules that you can switch at will and that the decision to believe something with a few days of positive self-talk will make it so.

Ugh.


Ugh indeed.

Dispirited:

The part of our beliefs that we can consciously have an effect on is the tip of the iceberg. Try changing a belief that’s in your muscle, your posture, reinforced by a lifetime of habitual stance and breathing and has shaped how your body has developed, that’s so deeply a part of your physiology that you don’t notice how it manifests because it’s so ingrained into who you are that it can’t even really be called “unconscious.” Good luck even noticing that shit, let alone trying to come to terms with it and transcend it. That’s a lifetime’s work.

Hypocritical character attack:

With their teeth and claws and magical powers. Like fireballs. And their knowledge of the entire Warhammer rule set.

Their rancid breath makes me want to vomit.


Stuffy and hypocritical:

I don’t believe in the basis of your question, Netaungrot. There’s no such thing as an anti-virus program for anything other than the type of machine I’m typing into. I could pick any spurious technique and pretend to have de-loused myself, but all I will have done is run one technique, to which my experience will conform like plastic and give me results in accordance with that technique.

Anal and condescending:

One more thing: the NLP spirit is not anything's possible. That’s a gross oversimplification, and is often the kind of thing you’ll hear from those who believe that computer metaphors are an accurate reflection of personal changework. It could more accurately be defined as: Often more is possible than people believe there to be.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:41 / 08.04.05
Well, if by "Frumpy," "Dispirited," "Stuffy and hypocritical" and "Anal and condescending" you mean "reasonable" and by "Hypocritical character attack" you mean "joke about demons and those who would pin everything that goes wrong onto said demons," then, yes, well, indubitably.
 
 
Chiropteran
18:21 / 08.04.05
Seth, I hereby call you out and demand that you answer to Mordant's charges that you are reasonable and have a sense of humour. Anything less would be downright frumpish.

Anyone want to talk about demons?

~L
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:13 / 08.04.05
He could at least have told us what his middle name is.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:54 / 09.04.05
I actually know what his mkiddle name is.

But I see no reason to prove it to him, or indeed anyone else. For I am smug.
 
 
Seth
08:42 / 09.04.05
Progress, of a sort. Now there are some quotes which have been cut and pasted as relevant to each charge, without exposition.

Now to complete the picture: how do you come to those conclusions about each of the quotes you site?
 
 
Seth
09:55 / 09.04.05
There’s this unhealthy bonkers fallacy perpetuated by a lot of the CM crowd and NLP crowd, the kind of thing that you hear a lot of RAW acolytes spouting about, that you can change the software of your brain and upgrade, get the manual to your psyche or even download a new operating system, that beliefs are plug-in and play modules that you can switch at will and that the decision to believe something with a few days of positive self-talk will make it so.

Ugh.


I was always taught in literary criticism to begin with a paragraph that states the case you want to argue against before stating your own case. That I do this with passion is because I tend to do most things with passion.

In this case, I’ve noticed for a long time the tendency to mistake these kind of metaphors for reality. As metaphor they’re useful on occasion, as reality they’re woefully insufficient and encourage the sense of Cartesian dualism that I then go on to argue against. I believe they encourage this type of dualism because our minds are a part of the system that is called “us.” Change in the mind does not have a cause and effect change in the body (and vice versa) – that is dualistic because it separates the nature of mind and body into a complementary pair. It is more true to say that a change in the mind is a change in the body, and that a change in the body is a change in the mind. There is no computer that has that rich and fluid an interface, where you can’t tell where software, hardware and programmer end and begin, such is the genius of how it’s made.

I do this by listing different ways of metaphors until their absurdity becomes self-evident. Clearly I was wrong, and I’m sorry if you got the wrong end of the stick. A lot of this meaning doesn’t become apparent until you compare it with the second paragraph (they set each other into context using the aforementioned device):

The part of our beliefs that we can consciously have an effect on is the tip of the iceberg. Try changing a belief that’s in your muscle, your posture, reinforced by a lifetime of habitual stance and breathing and has shaped how your body has developed, that’s so deeply a part of your physiology that you don’t notice how it manifests because it’s so ingrained into who you are that it can’t even really be called “unconscious.” Good luck even noticing that shit, let alone trying to come to terms with it and transcend it. That’s a lifetime’s work.

The second part of the point I was making with the first. If your only tools are predicated on the type of thinking I listed in the first paragraph, then you’re not going to get to grips with much significant changework: your superficial beliefs may change, but the ones that are hard-wired will only be noticed and changed with time and hard work (or Bioenergetic/Reichian therapy).

If anything, this is the very opposite of dispirited. I’ve had the veracity of these ideas and methods of working drummed into me at length by their advocates. I didn’t want to believe them, changed my mind, realised that my understanding of myself and my toolkit had huge blindspots, and am now eager to put in the work and learn another model of psychology to fill in the gaps. It’s not been easy, has required signififcant change and investment on my part (including a fair bit of humble pie), and I’m now enthusiastically committed to vigilance concerning a far larger set of my behaviours and reactions for the rest of my life.

I used to believe that all change could be easy. I’ve revised this belief to “change is often easier than many individuals believe.” It’s a step from an easily adopted slogan to a hard-won victory in moving my beliefs about myself and the world closer to what I perceive to be reality.

The seemingly miraculous tools I learned from NLP are still in my toolkit, and I’m happy to have them there. They get used a lot. And I’m still committed to expanding my toolkit and learning other ideas as well.

With their teeth and claws and magical powers. Like fireballs. And their knowledge of the entire Warhammer rule set.

Their rancid breath makes me want to vomit.


This is just silliness. I’m taking the piss out of demons, beings which I wouldn’t go as far to say even exist. I wouldn’t go as far as to say they don’t…

This wasn’t an attack on anyone here. I’m sorry if anyone felt attacked as a result of reading it.

Hypocrisy is a not putting into practise what you preach, so this could only be evidenced as hypocritical if it were compared against other aspects of my behaviour. Quoting it in isolation is not evidence of anything.

Having grown up in Church (and only really exited that establishment a few years ago), I know a lot of people who jumped to interpret a huge amount of phenomena as a “demonic attack.” I used laughter to dispel a lot of this stuff, and hoped to do the same here by “doing a Balrog.”

I don’t believe in the basis of your question, Netaungrot. There’s no such thing as an anti-virus program for anything other than the type of machine I’m typing into. I could pick any spurious technique and pretend to have de-loused myself, but all I will have done is run one technique, to which my experience will conform like plastic and give me results in accordance with that technique.

Again, in order to demonstrate that something is hypocritical you have to specifically site the other aspect of me that it is at odds with.

This quote is describing the self-fulfilling nature of metaphors is psychological and magical work. If you use computer metaphors about self-change you’ll get results in accordance with that metaphor, just as if you use Kabalah you’ll get results in accordance with that system, or indeed any psychological or magical model. Your results will be predicated on the tools and beliefs you use.

However, none of these models are true, and all have their strengths and weaknesses. I’ve already gone into detail on why I believe the computer metaphor to be incomplete and misleading if it is mistaken for reality, and some of the unhelpful beliefs or bias that come attached. Having understood the model and what it can and can’t do, I can use it as I see fit, understanding that it is only a model and not to be mistaken for the real thing.

That paragraph was explaining that I couldn’t answer the question you posed because I didn’t believe in the premise. An answer that didn’t do this would have validated the presuppositions your question was based on.

One more thing: the NLP spirit is not anything's possible. That’s a gross oversimplification, and is often the kind of thing you’ll hear from those who believe that computer metaphors are an accurate reflection of personal changework. It could more accurately be defined as: Often more is possible than people believe there to be.

I’ve pretty much backed up my reasoning behind this paragraph already. It’s largely to do with my passion for reattaching my conception of the world to the world, to not think simplistically, to reject blind adherence to slogans and metaphors. I put a lot of work into thinking about my ideas, actions and the consequences. I think change is something that will last my whole lifetime. I’m eager to see who I’ll become.

I hope this exposition has been useful to people and the thread.
 
 
Seth
10:13 / 09.04.05
It’s worth reiterating that I love debating these ideas, and have been known to do so at length in the past without choosing to respond to someone’s perceived psychological trap. I repeat: we could have had this discussion by other means, means such as reasoned debate on the part of Netaungrot. That I have chosen to respond with detailed content concerning my current best thinking is a testament to my commitment to draw worth from all my experience.
 
 
illmatic
13:53 / 09.04.05
I was refering to this:

If you've taken a great deal of time to thoroughly apply and integrate RAW's books, rather than just read them, you just might have enough to escape unscathed.

Is this something you've done? Is this something that you've seen someone else do? Has it worked? Has it worked well? Or is just something you're hypothesising about?

As to "what's wrong with wanting to be right". Well, if you're committed to being "right" you're excluding the possibility that you might be in error - I think you've been pretty definitely out-argued in this thread, but seem like you're still hanging in, trying to prove a point. Out of pride, I would guess.

Oh, and re. the comment of Seth's you found "dispiriting" - I read it as a very valid attack on an unfortunately common occult meme - belief is endlessly mutable, and the only thing you need to change - and a pointer towards other methods of change and engagement with yourself i.e. those based on bodywork. I read Seth as saying, you'll go further faster with these techniques, rather than those based on simple asserting a "belief change". Hardly dispiriting.
 
 
Seth
18:08 / 09.04.05
As to "what's wrong with wanting to be right". Well, if you're committed to being "right" you're excluding the possibility that you might be in error

I'm increasingly of the belief that the forming of opinions has more to do with protection than factual accuracy in most people (well, in all people sometimes). The need to be right is often from fear of being hurt, which is something that tends to pique my compassion and alert me that I'm in danger of treading on someone.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:08 / 10.04.05
The need to be right is often from fear of being hurt

I think that quite a lot of people have an irrational, competitive streak that can be exacerbated by an inability to explain things. I'm finding this with the death of the Pope quite a lot- trying to get people to understand Catholicism as a huge and utterly irrational institution when it's not been ingrained into them and they have no Catholic family can be extremely difficult. This tends to be because they've never seen the inside of the institution so they don't respond to the way that absolute truths are taught. I keep trying to explain because on this one occasion I know I really am right about the religion. I'm not a Catholic or even specifically anti-Catholic but I was brought up with half a foot in the religion because of the function of my family. My descriptions are partly driven by a competitive streak, well they were at first, that's rather dropped off now but it often keeps me attempting to explain something difficult to describe. At the moment though I also have a very clear idea of what I'm trying to get across. It's a contradiction that I'm aware is there everytime I write something down but I can't find a way to sort it out.

So I think it's a big mistake to assume that the need to be right is purely a hurt thing. Sometimes I think you're driven by a perception that you really and genuinely want people to understand and assimilate and you're restricted by your inability to describe things that you've observed in your background that aren't intellectual but simply learnt.

Sorry, thought I might as well post it though it has absolutely no relation to being attacked... well, sort of.
 
 
Seth
07:03 / 10.04.05
I think it has relevance to a thread on defending yourself from perceived attacks. And when I say the forming of opinions has more to do with protection than accuracy I mean exactly that: it’s not solely about protection and not solely about accuracy.

If there were a rationale for the competitive streak you’ve observed, what would it be?

A question for anyone reading: is it desirable to avoid being hurt or in pain?
 
 
Quantum
22:31 / 17.04.05
Yes It's Desirable To Avoid Distress.

I have just found this thread again and am literally crying with laughter- who is this Netaungrot person?

Me- it's a seductive illusion that you can 'decide' to believe something at will, turn it on and off like a tap to suit your purpose

Netaungrot- Nope. Sorry, try again. Not a bonefied illusion. The fluidity and scope of the logical levels in which successful belief change can filter through becomes wider in proportion to practice.

Firstly, it's 'bona fide' not bonefied you illiterate fool, second you are stringing words together like a poor algorithm mimicking sapience, the fluidity and scope of the logical levels in which successful belief change can filter through become ossified through repetition not 'wider' in proportion to practice. Making much sense? No, because it's NONSENSE, you utterly mental mentalist.

Seth, consider this an example of my response to a magical attack. Less disbelief, more scathing riposte.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
07:02 / 18.04.05
Less disbelief, more scathing riposte.

Judging from the dates of the posts alone, I suggest a glaring discrepancy from your self-conscious aggrandizement and the naked truth of your folly.

. . . the fluidity and scope of the logical levels in which successful belief change can filter through become ossified through repetition not 'wider' in proportion to practice.

Can you smell the frumpified perceptual flop you're trying to pass off as thought? A tragedy of your own hypnosis though you can't own it. (PRAISE MOSES!)

The sense in which one considers from without the suspension of disbelief offers a manipulation fit for oblivious ridicule.

Take it up front outside the last stop of the pigskinned swine department, chavvy, cause swonned ta ain't a well changed stang. . .
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:51 / 18.04.05
At the rist of adding to the threadrot: My friend, do you ever put aside that huge, fragile ego of yours for one minute?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:34 / 18.04.05
Aren't all swine pigskinned?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:47 / 18.04.05
More importantly, what does everything after the word "department" there actually mean?
 
  

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