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Can you stop it just by not believing in it?

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
20:04 / 26.03.05
If you're attacked by something magical, can you just not beleive it so much that it stops existing?

What I mean is, suppose you'd gone from being totally non-magical, and then changed and changed until you'd got to the stage where you'd been getting into contacting demons and stuff, and then one came at you.

If you then decided to revert to your previous state, would it just fuck off?

Likewise with a magical attack from someone.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
21:07 / 26.03.05
depends depends depends...

some demons thrive on non-acknowledgement, like demons of silence, or of things unsaid.

others die from it, like emotional vampires.

depends on the nature of the demon.

or the magical attack.

doesn't matter if you believe in magic or not - demons don't care. get your psychic armour shined up, and protect your heart.

I think there's a point of no return, after having been attained, that no longer allows you to go back to a state of ignorance or innocence.

can you unbelieve in magic???

tenix
 
 
gravitybitch
23:03 / 26.03.05
Don't know about that, but I think you can "not pay attention" in such a fashion as to not get hurt by run-of-the-mill nasties like idle ill-wishing....
 
 
Nalyd Khezr Bey
23:40 / 26.03.05
Yes and No and as someone above said, it depends on the nature of the attack or the demon or whatever. Take the demon of money for example. Money only has power as long as masses of people believe in and have faith in it's worth. One person not believing doesn't really affect a demon as powerful as money. Let's say you evoke it's power in the form of Credit and you make a pact with this devil. You have taken on this new "belief system" that you did not participate in before and you max out your credit cards but then decide that this is not for you and to just "revert to your previous state". I guarantee you that this demon will not just fuck off because you quit believing and will become even more powerful and dangerous to you since you have not lived up to your end of the deal. I will add also that you can never "revert to your previous state" because you will be forever affected by whatever you have experienced since taking on new paradigms and symbol systems.
 
 
vargr
03:31 / 27.03.05
If you have attracted the attention of an entity through some type of summoning, it is unlikely that simply ignoring it is going to make it go away. Have you taken any active measures to be rid of it?
 
 
Seth
10:52 / 27.03.05
There’s this unhealthy bonkers fallacy perpetuated by a lot of the CM crowd and NLP crowd, the kind of thing that you hear a lot of RAW acolytes spouting about, that you can change the software of your brain and upgrade, get the manual to your psyche or even download a new operating system, that beliefs are plug-in and play modules that you can switch at will and that the decision to believe something with a few days of positive self-talk will make it so.

Ugh.

The part of our beliefs that we can consciously have an effect on is the tip of the iceberg. Try changing a belief that’s in your muscle, your posture, reinforced by a lifetime of habitual stance and breathing and has shaped how your body has developed, that’s so deeply a part of your physiology that you don’t notice how it manifests because it’s so ingrained into who you are that it can’t even really be called “unconscious.” Good luck even noticing that shit, let alone trying to come to terms with it and transcend it. That’s a lifetime’s work.

Do I think you can deflect a magical attack by stopping your belief in it? Notice the logical flaw. In order to stop believing in a magical attack you have to first pull to mind your belief in a magical attack. You’ve stumbled at the first hurdle, the “don’t think of elephants” trap: the first rule to almost any endeavour is to find the positive expression of your outcome. “To not believe in something” is a very ambiguous poorly defined outcome. If you didn’t believe that, what would you believe in its place? What would you want that belief to do for you? What do you believe about your belief systems as a whole, and then what do you believe about that belief? How would that belief slot into the wider ecology of your other beliefs? In other words, how would changing that belief change your other beliefs? Do you have beliefs that might prevent you from easily changing that belief? What secondary gains or unwanted side effects might it produce in a: yourself, and b: the wider social systems of which you are a component? What will your life be like when you’ve got the belief, and how will you know that you’ve been successful?

The word “belief” has lost all meaning, like the word “tartlet.” It can seem a bit of a maze, but these are the questions that any self-respecting person should ask before they embark on any personal changework.

I think there's a point of no return, after having been attained, that no longer allows you to go back to a state of ignorance or innocence.

Ish. I’ve found you can get to a state of not believing that anything is totally true, which is a lovely primary state to live in most of the time (ish). Thing is, once you’re there it doesn’t help a huge amount when you feel under threat, or your primal fears have been activated, or you think there are demons out to get you.

With their teeth and claws and magical powers. Like fireballs. And their knowledge of the entire Warhammer rule set.

Their rancid breath makes me want to vomit.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
12:58 / 27.03.05
Mostly, I agree with Seth, especially about the tartlets, but I'm not convinced it's impossible to deflect occult attack via non-belief: you could, for example, rationalise the phenomena as standard physical events - "It's just the wind", or words to that effect. This would require some degree of self-hypnosis via internal argument, certainly, but might be possible, as might applying narrative paradigms to the situation: surmounting a problem by visualising yourself in a genre with strict rules. However, I suppose this does depend on the "size" of the entities or forces involved - you might have to select an even more archetypal...er...archetype to use with a bigger problem. Hmm. Don't know. I do like the idea of being able to deal with mischievious spirits by imagining yourself as, say, a character in a Gaiman novel, as said spirits might be capricious and dangerous, but will also be whimsically amusing, and nothing really bad will happen to you.
 
 
---
21:22 / 27.03.05
Try changing a belief that’s in your muscle, your posture, reinforced by a lifetime of habitual stance and breathing and has shaped how your body has developed, that’s so deeply a part of your physiology that you don’t notice how it manifests because it’s so ingrained into who you are that it can’t even really be called “unconscious.” Good luck even noticing that shit, let alone trying to come to terms with it and transcend it. That’s a lifetime’s work.

I know what you mean with this, and agree aswell. It can be hard work, really hard work.

As for the Demon thing : non-belief has worked when I've been harassed/attacked etc in the past, (leaving the whole 'is it mental or is it real' thing aside, that's a whole other subject in itself) but not fearing whatever it has been has IIRC been the defining turning point in any problems. When fear attaches to the belief a lot of problems can arise, and dropping that fear can shed a lot of the negative energy that sometimes attracts and/or maintains the problem.
 
 
Seth
07:56 / 28.03.05
Xyu: How exactly do you go about "dropping the fear?"

I've long been a tad suspicious of a lot of what occultists say on this subject, because most of it seems uncomfortably similar to the attitudes I'm accustomed to within the Charismatic Evangelical church.* Feeling weird today? That'll be the demons with their bat wings again. Better pray or you'll turn into Linda Blair.

A general question: how do you know you're being attacked?

* Usual qualifier that the church is not monolithic, actual church may differ from that depicted.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
08:08 / 28.03.05
You’ve stumbled at the first hurdle, the “don’t think of elephants” trap: the first rule to almost any endeavour is to find the positive expression of your outcome.

What about laughing at it? Despite the regular 'yes this is not bullshit' quote-unquote coincidences that I stumble across, I continue to have fairly strong 'you don't really believe all this nonsense, do you?' doubts as much or more regularly; it seems like that you should be able to use that for something. Might that be a positive method of defensively upping the mundanity quotient around you?
 
 
Chiropteran
13:13 / 28.03.05
IIRC from Dion Fortune's "Psychic Self-Defense," she advises not so much "not believing" in an attack as "not engaging" it. You don't have to convince yourself that there's nothing there, you just have to act like it and go do something else (she goes so far as to recommend sports with an element of risk, for their healthy distraction factor). In the particular model of thoughtform-based magical/psychic attack she focuses on, the target's fear is part of what feeds the attacking force, so depriving it of that fear cuts off a lot of its power (or forces the attacker to supply all the energy themselves, which is near-as-damn a counter-attack).

Whether this same approach would work with other types of attack (like working with personal effects and the like), I don't know, but I probably wouldn't rely on it too hard. Make the defense fit the attack.

~L
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:17 / 28.03.05
okay my approach, inspired mainly by taoism and practice of tai chi.

become the attack,let it in, attack thrives on resistance, dont resist let whatever it may be in make it a cup of tea and then send it home.just give in, they expect you to fight back. ie use your opponents force against them, let it in feel it digest it, shit it out, pick it up and throw it right back.

become weaker, those that like to think of themselves as stronger thrive on the notion of weakness, ie in order to feel strong you rely on weakness to assume strenght. who has the power there? it isnt the stronger person with there need for self definition, not really.

so let it all in , feel it, heart attacks, cancer, sit them down and make them tea.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:32 / 28.03.05
green tea, helps break down fat as you digest your food.
 
 
Illihit
23:37 / 28.03.05
become the attack,let it in, attack thrives on resistance, dont resist let whatever it may be in make it a cup of tea and then send it home.just give in, they expect you to fight back. ie use your opponents force against them, let it in feel it digest it, shit it out, pick it up and throw it right back.

become weaker, those that like to think of themselves as stronger thrive on the notion of weakness, ie in order to feel strong you rely on weakness to assume strenght. who has the power there? it isnt the stronger person with there need for self definition, not really.


But just (what appears to be) lying there cannot be healthy - wouldn't the attacker just be allowed easier access to whatever it wants? This isn't very clear to me, I apologize.
 
 
---
00:06 / 30.03.05
Xyu: How exactly do you go about "dropping the fear?"

Sorry, I'm a little rusty and haven't posted here that much for a while, you've found an error in what I was saying there.

Dropping can be a way, but firstly there has to be an examination of what it is that is feared. Questions come to mind if it's persistent : Why is this thing feared? What are you perceiving as a 'Demon' and why are you perceiving it in the way do? Why could it be attacking you? Are you feeling guilty about something? Do you think you deserve to be punished in this way? Are you sure you're being punished and not tested? Are you sure you're not simply hating yourself and at the root of it all it's you doing all of this?

And so on. Examine what this 'Demon' is, and then examine it even more. (I mean, if you're under an attack that lasts some time, you won't really need to be pushed to do this if you think your sanity is on the line.) Is it really seperate from you? When it comes right down to it do you really believe that it's actually seperate from your essence?

If any attack is persistent and you examine it, when you feel out as much of the situation as possible you arrive at things you didn't really accept, understand, or know at all at the time you first got attacked. If this is done properly and a good understanding of why the Demon could be there is gained, (fear in this case, in others it could be anything from strength testing by a higher power to a serious lesson for doing whatever fucked up thing you did) then the fear can be dropped. I wouldn't think that anything like a real fear of something is often completely dropped all at once, but huge amounts of it can be dropped, and yeah sometimes if you're lucky the whole thing goes with a corresponding realization of the cause of the problem. Also, when an attack has caused a certain amount of stress, fear can turn into rage as the spirit goes into a purer defensive mode and the dropping of fear is often achieved in an instant. The moment when you absolutely refuse to put up with anymore damage and the decision is mirrored in the unconscious out of the need for the body/mind to survive is a case of this.

But just (what appears to be) lying there cannot be healthy - wouldn't the attacker just be allowed easier access to whatever it wants? This isn't very clear to me, I apologize.

In the past letting in a Demon, completely letting it in and raising compassion and love in myself has worked. It's not something that's always worked, but in some cases it's been the perfect thing. Some Demons thrive, latch onto and feed on fear and terror, so when they finally break through to find nothing but compassion and love it sometimes makes them want to get straight back out and forget the whole thing.
 
 
Quantum
17:31 / 30.03.05
I don't think disbelieving something works too well for a magician- maybe for a rationalist or debunker or someone like that it might, but if you believe in magic for one purpose surely you believe in it full stop? Echoing Seth, it's a seductive illusion that you can 'decide' to believe something at will, turn it on and off like a tap to suit your purpose. That's a flimsy sort of belief if you ask me (I'm using belief as a concept similar to faith here, actual belief may differ from packaging)

Personally I don't think I have ever been attacked by a demon or psychic bolt etc. What's it like? Anybody know? Has anyone ever attacked anyone psychically? What worked against your efforts?
 
 
Chiropteran
12:50 / 31.03.05
Can we maybe make a distinction between (passive) "just not believing it" and (active) "denial of [its] power"? The whole "you have no power over me" bit? It would have to be backed up with some psychic clout, I would think - and in a way, it almost combines defense with counter-attack, since it is a direct willed strike at the efficacy of the attacking force.

And to repeat Quantum's question, 'cos it's interesting: anyone here ever experience psychic attack (from either side) who's willing to talk about it?

~L
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:01 / 31.03.05
Funny I tried to write what Quantum's just said a few days ago but it kept coming out garbled. It seems to me rather odd to think that you could just stop believing in something- if you've believed absolutely that psychic attack is plausible, if it's been part of your inner theory of magic than it's not an idea that you can let go. I've always been slightly dubious about it or rather I don't believe in psychic attack, just pressure but I suppose in a sense that's simply discerning what I perceive as attack from manipulation.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:36 / 31.03.05
if you believe in magic for one purpose surely you believe in it full stop? Echoing Seth, it's a seductive illusion that you can 'decide' to believe something at will, turn it on and off like a tap to suit your purpose

I would agree. If you are prepared to believe that magic works at all, then I don't think you can genuinely forego that belief when it suits you. For instance, if you know that you've probably pissed off some really nasty Palo Mayombe guy and then wake up one morning to find a fresh animal skull and a black candle burning on your doorstep, I think you might have problems just dismissing it. I don't think the "it's only real as long as I believe in it" get out clause really works in practice, if you believe in it enough to practice it yourself, then receiving a nice present like that is bound to raise a bit of concern no matter how many RAW books you've read, surely.

I think this cuts across the "you have no power over me" approach that Lep raised as well. Can you back it up? Do you genuinely believe that deep down? Do you really think that an aggressors magic can't hurt you for whatever reasons, or are you really just fronting? I don't think there are many broad rules on this type of situation, and like many areas of magic, it has to be considered on a case by case basis. If it's some sixteen year old goth kid who's read a few books on witchcraft and fancies his chances, then the matter could probably be resolved without that much hassle if you know what you're doing. However, if it's some 70 year old Haitian guy with loads of experience and strong connections to the Spirits that he's developed over a lifetime, then not so much...

I dunno, if I had reason to believe I was being attacked by someone, no matter who they were, I would want more in my corner than empty bluster and untested "you cannot harm me, foolish mortal" posturing. Why sit on your hands trying to "not believe" in something's power, instead of taking practical steps to try and resolve the problem on the level that it exists. I don't understand.
 
 
Chiropteran
15:15 / 31.03.05
The "you can't hurt me" approach I can only really see being effective against certain types of attacks - "thoughtform" attacks, attacks that are explicitly "psychic" in nature ("I Will Curse You With My MIND!" as opposed to more ceremonial and/or material-base attacks), some nonphysical entities, maybe. And, as I said, there needs to be some clout behind it.

I'm speaking from some (admittedly minor) experience of dealing with our local itty-bitty "witch wars," where the antagonists were pretty much the puffed-up goth kids Gypsy refered to. A simple and forceful denial of their "Power" acted as an effective smack-down for some of us, while others in our group who panicked and ran around burning white candles and smudging everything were hit pretty hard for a few days. How absolute was our belief? Hard to say, but it behaved very much like a simple and self-evident recognition of our strength relative to the attacker's weakness (despite not being tested against each other previously - see "faith," below). I wouldn't try this with the Palero, because it quite simply wouldn't be "true" in any believable way.

I think that actually there is more of faith in this than "belief," if that makes any sense. Faith doesn't respond to reason or evidence in quite the same way that belief does, and seems to swing a lot more weight when wielded properly (this may or may not be a meaningful distinction, but that's probably a whole other discussion).

And while the outward form of the defense is deceptively simplistic, the inner process is a dynamic rallying of the spirit's natural defenses - like the common aikido-type demonstrations where you just say "my arm cannot be moved" without making (conscious) physical effort to hold it still, and it resists the force of someone pushing down on it. Limited in its applicability, certainly, but it's still there.

Now, some other type of attack, like using personal concerns, burning black candles on someone (properly), sending a djab after someone, etc., is going to need a more thorough taking-care-of. There is more going on than just (merely?) the attacker's own psyche (with its own doubts and insecurities) involved, and these things need to be dealt with in their own ways.

~L
 
 
· N · E · T ·
21:39 / 31.03.05
If you've taken a great deal of time to thoroughly apply and integrate RAW's books, rather than just read them, you just might have enough to escape unscathed.

Of course the circumstances of the magical attack depend heavily on how to deal with it, but it certainly is possible to apply disbelief in an effective manner. However, applying disbelief to the entire field of magic (besides the rising difficulty the more you have invested in it) seems an overreaction. I'd be a bit more targeted in my approach if I wished to use disbelief in such a situation, which, as Seth pointed out, would necessitate a focus on a positive replacement rather than a focus on negation.

In most situations where the offending problem has little root in the physical world, there is a high likelihood that well placed skepticism and a secure sense of self will do just the trick. . .
 
 
Chiropteran
12:41 / 01.04.05
In most situations where the offending problem has little root in the physical world, there is a high likelihood that well placed skepticism and a secure sense of self will do just the trick. . .

And failing that, there's always the panicked late-night post to the Temple.

~L
 
 
Seth
15:18 / 01.04.05
I'm not convinced that developing an understanding of what you think is causing you to be afraid will help in addressing the fear in all cases. I've experienced many situations in which I've understood my own processes and the fear has remained. My reaction to the full moon is an example of this: I know in advance that I'll be tense and anxious throughout the period, but knowing it doesn't make it go away.

Fight or flight is there for a reason: protection. Your body takes over and chances are it's a lot more powerful than how you consciously think.

Besides, if I were to be under magical attack then I'd almost be grateful if it just manifested as fear. At least my home, health, livelihood and loved ones aren't being targeted: they're just trying to freak me out. Under those circumstances fear is just one of the problems. Not that I'm convinced I've experienced either, and I'd be interested to read in depth descriptions of other people's percieved attacks.

Often the best course of action is to accept that you're afraid, and then to do your best. It's called courage. Can't really see the point in calling it anything else.
 
 
Krall
18:37 / 01.04.05
I believe if I was magical... and I was summoned or noticed someone summoning me... I would not leave it alone should it just one day decide "nah should have taken the blue pill"

- Krall
 
 
· N · E · T ·
02:07 / 02.04.05
it's a seductive illusion that you can 'decide' to believe something at will, turn it on and off like a tap to suit your purpose

Nope. Sorry, try again. Not a bonefied illusion. The fluidity and scope of the logical levels in which successful belief change can filter through becomes wider in proportion to practice.

I do appreciate the challenges set forth by the perenniel naysayers as they do contribute to the overcoming of limits, but they have a terrible habit of later finding themselves struggling to reconcile their pessimistic predictions with undeniable events. . .

You will never fly.

You will never fly faster than speed of sound.

You will never reach the moon.

You will never develop belief systems that can . . .

What happens when you read a news article? Do you take everything at face value, or do you decide to believe some things, maintain skepticism towards others, and outright disbelieve some information that comes at you?

That process can expand to deeper levels, and the younger you are, the easier it will be. Older folks can make profound changes too, with less blood, sweat and tears than some of y'all are trying to make it out to be.

Granted, a great deal of changes probably won't happen overnight, but incredible transformations can and do happen in much less time than some frumpy dispirited characters like to grumble about.

The contagious stuffy pessimism that Seth has started to exude suggests a perversion of the NLP spirit that he seems to borrow so much from. You know, the worst magical attacks are ones that you had no idea occurred or any anticipation of. . .

When's the last time you ran an antivirus program, Seth?
 
 
Vadrice
08:10 / 02.04.05
allegory for you.
My sister had her apartment broken into once. A week later she unlocked her front door and pitched her keys in the trash.
Hasn't locked it since.

I figured it was so she didn't have to get another window repaired. Just let the bastards come in and take what they want... but nope. But nopenopenope... I asked her about it and she simply told me,
"I don't create that reality anymore."

That was three years ago and she has had no problems since.
 
 
Seth
09:12 / 02.04.05
Having experienced first hand the way in which many people seem to voluntarily dehumanise themselves when learning NLP, I’m very happy to play Devil’s Advocate in these kind of threads. There were times on both courses that I encountered people who seemed to be a walking set of techniques rather than capable of showing heart, empathy and compassion. My friend J’s mate committed suicide when J was on the Master Practitioner course: he was told that it would be OK, because the next day they’d be doing techniques that centred on grief and loss.

J nearly floored him. I don’t think I would have been so self-restrained.

One of my posts is not the sum totality of my thinking on the subject. I believe in checks and balances: here I’m providing a counterbalance to many unchecked assumptions about what people believe about beliefs and how to change them. I’m a strong advocate of what NLP can do, when it’s used with insight and wisdom by a practitioner who recognises that NLP is not the truth. It’s the people who suddenly become the jargon (changing your mind now has to be called “reframing,” giving someone a hug now has to be called a “setting a positive anchor”), who sacrifice critique for credulity, who lose their unique identity in a mass of homogenising technique and psychobabble.

So yeah, I’ve seen an NLP practitioner sort out fifteen years of back trauma in just under an hour. I’ve also seen them project their own fear and confusion onto their clients. There is no such thing as an unassailable cure-all, there is no Unified Field Theory of body-mind therapy that will always work regardless of human fallibility.

One of the areas where NLP is underdeveloped is the area of physiology. It assumes too much control lies with the mind – the best practitioners spend time eliciting physiological states and working on breathing and posture in themselves and their clients. However, NLP doesn’t have a huge amount to teach in this field beyond techniques for observation and rapport: most practitioners are interested in quick wins, and there’s still an unhealthy amount of Cartesian dualism infecting what people are writing and training. Hence the focus on the body, on bioenergetics, on Reich and Lowen that informed my first post to this thread. There are other theologies of changework outside NLP, and referring to physical hardware when there’s an unhealthy unbalance in favour of apparent brain software is one of my ongoing ways of trying to get people interested in finding out about their bodies and how their body effectively is their identity.

Those will sound like dirty words because a huge number of people don’t like their bodies and hope to evolve beyond them. Hence 2001 and Neon Genesis Evangelion, we will become silhouettes when our bodies finally go… I’m increasingly finding that way of thinking to be massively short sighted, separating people from their basic nature, in that they are part of nature. To a large extent a lot of NLP practitioners encourage this by teaching the discipline unchecked – why rest when you can be on tip top form with a five minute Circle of Excellence and induce the state of when you were last whizzing your tits off or pilling? No balance, no recourse to the natural wisdom of just resting when you feel tired.

NLP is incomplete, and will never be completed. For example, you site the logical levels (I assume that’s what you were referring to) from the work of Bateson/Dilts. The logical levels aren’t true. They may be useful, but that’s a very different matter. And different people think different things about them: I was taught them on five strata by McDermott (Identity, Beliefs, Capabilities, Behaviour, Environment), and was later taught them on six levels by Dilts (he adds a spiritual dimension, and the fact that McDermott leaves this out says a lot about their differences in opinion, at least in terms of what it’s appropriate to teach at Practitioner level). That’s what we’re taught theoretically, but in practise I’ve added levels such as Relationships and Physiology, because the existing model didn’t have the requisite functionality for the individual I was working with.

NLP gives a method, but only a human being can help heal or change another human being. Things like love, listening, trust, relationship, honesty and courage are more important than NLP and always will be.

I don’t believe in the basis of your question, Netaungrot. There’s no such thing as an anti-virus program for anything other than the type of machine I’m typing into. I could pick any spurious technique and pretend to have de-loused myself, but all I will have done is run one technique, to which my experience will conform like plastic and give me results in accordance with that technique.

Knowing that won’t stop me from engaging in the process of self-knowledge and self change, but I won’t pretend that the process is called virus checking, with all the connotations that entails. I may still run that aforementioned hypothetical technique, but I won’t pretend that I’ve had all the little parasites and critters removed from me as a result. I know the terms “anti-virus” and “virus” are just metaphors, and as such their use will remove me from my direct experience of myself and give fuel to my ego and what it thinks it’s capable of, while recognising that my “ego” is just a metaphor for my experience, while recognising that my “experience” is just a metaphor for my experience… ad infinitum, you get the picture. Language isn’t true, you sever yourself from the world in order to describe it, and the more jargon you add the further you get.

When I run a technique on someone and they experience “nothing” as the result, I ask them “what kind of nothing are you experiencing?” If they’re flummoxed by that I’ll say something trite like, “Monks have been training for years to experience a state of nothingness, and it’s highly unlikely that you will have been able to do it by accident in the duration of a five-minute session.” What’s interesting is that people invariably are able to come up with rich and interesting discussions of the “nothing” they are experiencing, and you have no idea whether it’s because their nothing was explicable to begin with, whether they’ve just never observed their experience of “nothing” before (enough to notice that it’s not “nothing”), whether the process of them observing it has caused there to be something to observe, or whether the hypnotic presupposition that their “nothing” is of a specific type has caused their experience to shape itself into a type. I have no idea of the answer: what I do know is that therapy becomes easier from that point because out of the person’s answer a metaphorical "user interface" has been built for the purpose of ongoing work. Is it actually a "user interface?" No. It might appear to be if the tools I choose to use treat it as such, but it's only a pretty way of partially decribing the indescribable, which if you're wise is often of questionable benefit. I’ve had results in accordance with the type of tool I was using to do the work.

But the tool is never the truth.
 
 
Seth
10:45 / 02.04.05
One more thing: the NLP spirit is not anything's possible. That’s a gross oversimplification, and is often the kind of thing you’ll hear from those who believe that computer metaphors are an accurate reflection of personal changework. It could more accurately be defined as: Often more is possible than people believe there to be.

In the case of this thread what people want to discuss are the ways in which it is possible to resist magical/demonic attacks, assuming that such an attack is what they think it is. By asking them to report details of the specific instances in which they feel they have been attacked I’m asking them to put their money where their mouth is and open their beliefs about themselves and the world up to critique from other people who may disagree with what constitutes an “attack.” They’ll get multiple viewpoints from people who may or may not agree with them, and there may or may not be conflict on the thread as a result. But the process of allowing other people to critique how they view the world will likely go a long way to providing what is the subject of this thread: ways to be resistant.

So far I’ve offered an opinion that Legba might want to rephrase what ze wants so that it’s a positive goal rather than a negation. I’ve noted that belief change has to incorporate a physical dimension if it is going to have real power, to notice and engage with how your experience is stored in your body, and the frequent difficulty of noticing and changing the aspects of one’s beliefs and behaviour that are so deeply physiologically ingrained and habitual as to be well outside of conscious awareness. I’ve suggested that when one perceives oneself to be under attack the body has natural and often very useful reactions that are likely to overwhelm a lot of conscious thought. I’ve questioned whether fear can be easily removed, and whether it always needs to be removed in order to become resistant. And I’ve joined others in asking for accounts of specific instances in which people feel they’ve been attacked.

Personally I’ve felt attacked Netaungrot. It seems to me that words like “frumpy,” “dispirited” “grumble” “contagious” “stuffy” “pessimism” and “perversion” have been used as descriptive of the way in which others and myself have behaved in this thread. My instant feeling was that I was being attacked, and my instant reaction was to feel hurt and defend myself.

I don’t think any of those labels apply to me or to what I’ve written. Was this actually a conscious attack? I don’t think it necessarily has to be described as such, regardless of my initial feelings. There’s a large amount of what’s happening that I don’t fully know, which is what Netaungrot thinks and hir motivations: I can supply theories, but they’re not necessarily true.

For example, my family in Manchester wouldn’t think twice about a method of debate which labels the person making the point, and you get a lot of it in politics. If I were to voice that I think that behaviour is inappropriate I’d likely be told to “not take it personally,” “have a sense of humour,” or to “stop being so over-sensitive.” To concede that, however, is often allow a double sucker-punch: you’re hurt by the initial comment, and your stated reaction to is turned into a second attack. You can’t feel legitimate emotional reactions because that’s further evidence of your flaws, the correct response is to shrug it off and allow the person to say whatever they like about you. Conversational Catch-22? See also the response of being labelled “defensive,” which is shorthand for a person ascribing whatever valid reactions you might have to being invalid and is actually more of a comment on their perceptions of themselves as on the offensive (which automatically placed you in the role of defensive, this being a world in which duality is often mistaken for the truth).

I can jump to the conclusion that I’ve been attacked (my initial response), or be open to the possibility that there’s something else going on. Is it this unknown element that makes me more likely to interpret this as an attack?

So I’ll be the first to open this instance up for debate, regardless of whether or not it’s more mundane than all the talk of demons and magic, just in case it yields something relevant to the discussion. Does this constitute an “attack?” What do people think?
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:04 / 02.04.05
come on now what have you got to lose by letting these things in?

intellectual pride?

your self?

your life?

your ego?

there doing you a favour every poison is a medicine, even the final fatal dose.

lets see some more positive negativism.

you cant resist death, make it your friend.

everything changes, death is constant, reliable.

a permanent player in the game, what you got to lose. nothing. what you really got? nothing.

suffering sorrow temporal pain in any context, what possibly can anybody do or anything do once your resigned to death? answer nothing.

fear will have you jumping around from every branch of the tree shitting wildly, fertilising more branches to grow, planting more roots.

accept it, there is no time, your dead already, now get on with living.

something like that.

time heals and kills all,immanent and transcendent.

why not just accept that it is constantly inconsistant?

what you thought you were 5 minutes ago is not what you are now, what your thinking you will be, you may not be being at all, let go, there is nothing to hold onto.

you arent it.thou occasionally.....
 
 
· N · E · T ·
17:39 / 02.04.05
What's going on to allow that to hurt?

I have a great deal of respect for you Seth, and I certainly didn't intend to harm you with my language. Did intend to attack some behaviors, however.

I appreciate feedback that pulls no punches, and felt you deserve the same. I'm going to be out of town for a day or two, so I'll share more in depth comments when I return (I'm on my way out as I type this).

Be well.
 
 
Seth
19:07 / 02.04.05
Hmmm. A few hours later and I've decided to change my mind on being fluffy and exploratory about this.

I have a great deal of respect for you Seth, and I certainly didn't intend to harm you with my language. Did intend to attack some behaviors, however.

Then act like you have respect. The behaviours were hallucinated on your part, and even if you were intending to attack what you perceived to be behaviours you did it by name-calling, missing your mark, getting personal and damaging your own case.

As for "what's going on to allow that to hurt:” very magnanimous. I must have extenuating circumstances; otherwise I’d never stand up for myself and take issue with your post. You don’t know me, you don’t have a relationship with me whereby we have a level of comfortable banter, and your respect has no currency.

Back to NLP: consider “the meaning of your communication is the response it elicits.”
 
 
· N · E · T ·
16:59 / 05.04.05
consider “the meaning of your communication is the response it elicits.”

Consider how frumpy and discouraging you and others have started to come across to me, as I have dubbed a meaning of your communications. . . it's a two way street you know.

It sure doesn't seem like I missed the mark at all as you ate it up hook, line and sinker and helped facilitate my outcome: getting you to clarify your position and put some sparks in this thread.

Another motivation was to give an example of a mild psychological attack which I presumed you had the skills to not only demonstrate an effective neutralization of, but to also comment on the process for the benefit of this thread's interested parties.

You don’t know me, you don’t have a relationship with me whereby we have a level of comfortable banter, and your respect has no currency.

Ok, I don't have a "relationship" with you, and no doubt are wary of my tricks, I think that's charming. . . I have read a great deal of your posts on Barbelith so you've given me insights at the very least. And sometimes it's good to be uncomfortable. You open yourself up to criticism when you post on public message boards, no matter how underhanded it might be.

My respect has no currency with you, eh? That's really quite remarkable, as you must have spent quite some valuable energy in your relatively long reaction to me.

Thanks for your unwitting compliance nonetheless. . .

^__^
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:03 / 05.04.05
Just for future reference, it's only impressive when you say "ah-hah! My intention was not, as it appeared, to insult/annoy/belittle you, but to drive you on to better things... like Mr. Myagi. And see! You have done exactly what I expected you to..." if you have first written down the exact response you intend to elicit and sent it to a trusted professional by registered post to arrive before the other person responds, and then have them open up the description live on TV. Otherwise you're kind of claiming credit for causing Brownian motion by confusing the smoke particles with your mental mental mentalism.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
20:45 / 05.04.05
I don't have a desire to impress, and certainly am not claiming responsibility for anyone's behavior but my own.

I considered sending some people messages beforehand, but writing them would require I have a desire to prove something to myself and/or the people who would recieve the posts. Furthermore, these people might deem my methods unethical and give my target a heads up.

*evil grin*

. . .Unnecessary obstacles in my opinion.

In any event, I will gar a gnashing less acknowledged in the subsequence.
 
 
Seth
05:23 / 06.04.05
As for your claims of "frumpy" and "dispirited" you haven't posted any evidence yet. You will have no case until you do. As for "the meaning of your communication..." I've always seen it to be a double edged sword, and my searching for the parts of my post that triggered your reaction will be greatly aided by you communicating instead of sniping and manipulating.

I've posted the relevant quotes from your post which were a personal attack, which is at odds with your claimed respect. I freely concede to being flustered: it's very rare that someone is rude to me in such an uncalled for, unjustified manner. Unjustified in the sense that you haven't justified yourself with evidence.

Your current claim that you had an outcome and sought to poke me until you got it is also at odds with the respect you claim to have. You could have just asked me to clarify myself on the various points you were interested in, or made your point in other ways which would have got a response. That would have achieved the outcome as stated. Instead you got personal and now claim you did it for my own good and the good of the thread. How do you expect people will feel about you as a result of using these kind of tactics when others would have worked better and been kinder?

So now you freely admit to manipulation and the evidence of rudeness is upthread for all to see. Meanwhile the thread has derailed which is counter to one of your outcomes. You've also made me deeply concerned about your motives, as you've chosen to be rude rather than kind and prefered your own covert outcomes to relating.

I refer you to my flustered ranting above: there are things which are more important than outcomes. Like respect, which you make claim to but clearly don't have (respect being an ordering principle of other behaviours). And there are things which are just as important as outcomes. Like ecology - in this case your outcome to challenge behaviours that you haven't demonstrated with evidence to actually exist has been in practise like an exercise in shooting fleas with a bazooka.

You also admit that your outsome depended on the assumption that you could insult me with impunity because you think you know what other people should and shouldn't be hurt by. I'm inclined to start a thread listing beliefs like these without comment.

To anyone reading this: yes, I can be hurt. I've worked hard at being able to actually feel hurt when I am hurt, rather than feed my natural reaction, which works as protection but causes unwanted side-effects. It's part of what I've noticed about my body's intentions and processes.

You make claim to knowledge of NLP, and in those terms your outcome hasn't paced me at all, hasn't met me in my model of the world, hasn't displayed an awareness of the wider ecology, has blamed me for my emotional reactions rather than further paced, has not been evidence based, has operated without my consent (ie: we haven't mutually set intent or contracted), and has missed the mark with an identity level attack when you say you were aiming at behaviours (all the while it being clear that it's the belief level that you took issue with, ie: your perceptions of what I believe is and isn't possible).

That you've riled me is without question. Well done. That you've behaved in a manner which is shady and unkind is there for anyone to read. The justification for your behaviour isn't there for anyone to read. I'm still mystified as to what triggered what seems like a massively disproportionate reaction on your part, and what made you think you've achieved that you couldn't have done through other means which wouldn't have had such a large fallout.

Netaungrot is attempting to use the language, technique and theory of NLP, so I'll leave it to the board to determine whether or not ze's currently the kind of person I mentioned: the ones who prefer technique to love, kindess and honesty, who prefer to "operate" on "outcomes" to relating, who think that their goals concerning what they can do should be pursued at the expense of the wider systems of which they are a part.
 
  

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