BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Magick.. Is it worth it?

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
illmatic
13:18 / 22.03.05
Gumbitch: Someone else has pointed out to me that I was mistaken about Howard Philips. Should know my subject before posting I suppose.
 
 
--
16:00 / 22.03.05
I didn't refer to Lovecraft as a role model, merely used him as an example. Certainly in some ways he was a social reject but I think his writing, which was almost his very existence (or reason to exist) made up for that particular defect.

Z. deScathach, I understand what you mean by pain bringing one to levels of despair. Generally I'm of sound mind but sometimes my body goes into horrific spells that drive me to borderline insanity (I never ever have thoughts of suicide unless my body is acting up or my health is poor... I assume you can understand this, what with your comments on "checking out"). Unlike you, however, I can't quite say if it's magic that keeps me going... In my case I'd have to say it's my love of creativity, art, writing, and so on that prevents me from offing myself (that and the fact that if I would ever kill myself it would hurt the feelings of a lot of people close to me, and that seems like a selfish thing to do). Of course, you could say that creativity is the highest form of magic (indeed, *cough*ALEISTER CROWLEY*cough* thought the artist to be superior to the magician) so I guess you could say, in that regards, that magic is what keeps me going.

Anyway, it's good you can see the positive side of things, even in the mundane. I'm more of the Camus-existential-nihilism school of mind, however, so it's not as easy for me. Certainly one can sense inherent beauty in nature, trees, the ocean, what not, but I fail to see the use in recognizing such a thing in the most rote activities. Then again, everyone has their own opinions on what magic is or isn't, and it's a complicated subject anyway, so... My obsesions among other things include computers, technology, electronic music, electronics in general, video games, computer programming, and things along those lines, so it's no surprise I incorporate so much of that into my magical system.

Personally I can usually find transcendence when I'm reading a great book or creating music or stories. It's the closest I can come to a higher state, outside of meditation. But when I sit down to type and the images come to me and the words flow and the characters come to life, to me that's magic and when I feel the most alive. I tend to view my characters as spirits that I somehow have tapped into, and I respect my relationships with them (a few of which have assumed totem status... One in particular I employ to help ailing friends or relatives. He's quite effective).
 
 
Ganesh
11:40 / 23.03.05
Do you ever find transcendence in any activity involving the presence of other people?
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:55 / 23.03.05
have you ever heard that song by nick cave 'people they aint no good' i used to listen to that quite a bit, feel alot of empathy for it.

because in my experience most people ive associated with are a bunch of useing backstabbing cunts, that doesnt mean they always will be, but it certainly makes you very cautious about the people around you. you can only take so much pain and walking on before you start to think fuck you all. and then of course you can look at your own behaviour and reflect that it could be you in some way and beat on yourself for not being social enough. well i am through with that as well.

some people do seem to be more social creatures than others, ive found that in order for that to be the case alot of personal freedom is often the sacrafice, alot of compromises and to a certain extent a loss of self identity.

ah but then theres the loneliness of being 'outside' heh as if social identity is being a part of something, dont confuse that with being part of something greater than yourself, and other days humanity just isnt that important and nor am i.

perhaps in order for me to live it becomes nessecary for me to focus on me rather than others, as without some sense of self love i am not going to experience it else where, and why should i base my happiness and status on other people?

why should my interactions with other people come before me? are they going to respect me? mostly not, mostly there going to shit on others to ascend in what ever little social game they think they are playing.

so some days i just think, fuck you all, it would be very peaceful if you were all dead.

but then we all have bad days, months, years.....

its not a place to stay, but its where you can find yourself somedays, and often it can get you through those times, dont knock it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:03 / 23.03.05
in response to ganesh, dancing and kung fu, and walking through town centres and of course shopping is great so magickal, mainly shopping. especially for food.
 
 
Ganesh
13:44 / 23.03.05
Thankyou - although my question was actually directed at Sypha...
 
 
jorjun
16:01 / 23.03.05
I really enjoyed reading the responses in this thread.
And agree with all of the apologists. People on the outside looking in have all sorts of funny notions about the modern magician. They just don't have the terms of reference yet. Are they druggies? Goths? Hippies? Fops? Gays? Anarchists?

No, they are magicians. But never mind.

I do think that I am no longer sane, but though I now have great power I don't think it was a trade. And the power is more like great responsibility. The distinctions is worth examining.

Trading seems to go on whenever I encounter anybody socially, however. This was fine in my younger days, but now I just don't have the stomach for it. Maybe because I lose so often (ha).

I am saying that I find that an open, unguarded conversation that might find new territory tends to be greeted with mystification (ha) and a puzzlement as to where the tennis net might be hiding. Without a clear agenda, how can the score after the round be totted up? The tiny 'win' that adds another meagre drop to the ego glory cup.

The exceptions to this normal behaviour is rare and only with magicians. Only developed people centre themselves around their core. And in transitory, lucid moments I realise that my core is not based around the ego.
 
 
--
19:56 / 23.03.05
Yes, Ganesh, there are certain people whose presence I very much enjoy bathing in. I can relate to them on many levels, those these people are uncommon. When I encounter such individuals I always am grateful to have made such a connection. But that's a different sort of transendence than the artistic type I was talking about, which is of a more abstract nature then social transactions (I think both have their merits).
 
 
Z. deScathach
04:54 / 24.03.05
People can sometimes be infuriating by virtue of the fact that they can vary so greatly. I've always belived that magick properly practiced shouldn't make relationship with people more difficult. For myself, it has made my connection with certain persons much deeper and stronger, and yet, it's been a double-edged sword. I find that I no longer have patience for the silly gamesmanship, undercutting, and faux outrage that seems to permeate daily social life. That makes living with people difficult. I see people get upset over things that no person with an ounce of mental control should get upset over. As a matter of fact, it seems as if we are moving toward a society in which the average citizen lives in a continual low level of rage.

This begs the question: What is sanity? Magick well practiced leads to a state where a person gains increasing control over one's reactions. I would argue that the ablity to let go of the usually small issues that make one hopping mad is a factor in being sane. It's my personal belief that if more persons underwent magickal training, we'd see less rage and more civility. In terms of the magickal sociopath, they frequently are expanding the most toxic parts of their psyche, parts of the psyche that are NOT in the best interest of the self. Thus, magick has a self-correcting facility.

I find that when acting in ways counter to my self, the universe reflects back to me fairly quickly, in an uncomfortable fashion. Personally, I get a level of reassurance from that. It tells me that if I keep moving in the direction that I am, I will move to still greater sanity. Of course there are mental diseases that can manifest totally independent of one's particular practices, such as schizophrenia, schizo-affective disorder, not to mention mood disorders.

One thing that impresses me about this conversation however, are the differing definitions of the word sanity. It means many things to many people. What constitutes sanity? Ganesh, you are the pro here,(psychiatrist I believe?), would you care to provide a working definition? I think it would help to focus the debate......
 
 
Eudaimonic.lvx
08:13 / 24.03.05
Many thanks all for taking the time to respond - great discussion.

I think my orignal quote came from a discussion board where people were working mainly with Enochian and Goetic paradigms (which I know virtually nothing about), and they were talking a lot about cases where people had evoked some terrifying entity and then been a gibbering wreck for the rest of their lives.

So I guess this is the idea of sanity which I was initially referring to - does Magick increase the likelyhood of this variety of madness? But yeah, the other definitions interest me too - the more social (in)sanity of one who chooses to live by his own rules to some extent.
 
 
Z. deScathach
10:27 / 24.03.05
I believe that it can, but a more common form of insanity is that of paranoia. If a person is somewhat susceptible to that type of madness,magick can turn it into borderline or full blown psychosis. The question about the dangers of evocation does bring up some interesting questions though. If such things get out of control, is that actually insanity or sloppy magick that has allowed influences to take over an individual's life. It speaks to the question as to whether entities are internal components of our selves, or if they exist independently. That one's always good for a lively discussion. I'm sure it's been covered on Barbelith, I've seen it come up in every forum I've been in. Even if such entities are forces existing outside of the mind of the practitioner, one thing's for sure. The end result certainly LOOKS like insanity.....
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:30 / 24.03.05
If you're working from a perspective where magic is real and the entities you call upon have an objective form of existence (which I think you have to do to be any kind of a magician, even if that belief is only for the duration of your involvement with said entity), then you are inviting problems that might to all intents and purposes amount to "insanity" in the eyes of an observer.

If you accept that they are real, then it is very easy to get way out of your depth and get your fingers burnt horribly, when interacting with potent beings such as the Goetia, the Enochian intelligences, the Lwa or Orisha. The mark of a good magician is not if you can call them in the first place, but how successful you are in interacting with them, how well you can manage the relationship, and frankly, whether the experience ends up as a rewarding interaction from which both parties benefit, or whether you end up a gibbering wreck, frightened out of your wits because of all the invisible beings that you believe are out to get you.

It's not a case of: "Brrrr.... Dabbling in the black arts can drive you insane..." But a matter of whether you are capable of successfully handling the sometimes unexpected consequences of your actions. Magic stirs up some weird stuff, and whether that is ultimately "external" or "internal" doesn't really matter if the outcome is the same. If you don't think you're capable of dealing with that, stay away from it. The further you get with magic, the more difficult and challenging it is likely to become. Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. If you're not up for that, take up fishing instead.
 
 
Katherine
12:43 / 24.03.05
I'm pretty much in full agreement with the above, it proves how important the statement 'Know thy self' is. Especially within the realms of magic and it's use or study.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:52 / 24.03.05
ive found threw my interactions with various entities that sometimes contact can leave me with alot of self reflection, often in areas i am uncomfortable with, and sometimes areas that id rather not be in at all, but all in all, a majority of my magickal life has given me a better understanding of myself and to some extent the environment around me as well.

i think sometimes, the things brought up inside, can tip the perception and relationships over what is conventionally considered safe, but i think that transgression of boundaries is also an essential part of learning, about why those boundaries are there and also about your own limitations and sometimes how you were limiting yourself or being limited by accepted notions.

interaction and communication with entities certainly raises alot of questions about the nature of reality, your relation to it and how you intend to go on with your own perception of it once a relationship has been formulated with it which maybe concieved by others as fantasy.

its the relationship that seperates it from fantasy, the mutual exchange of communication between the practioner and other seems to me to create the life of the partnership.
 
 
Z. deScathach
07:52 / 26.03.05
If you're working from a perspective where magic is real and the entities you call upon have an objective form of existence (which I think you have to do to be any kind of a magician, even if that belief is only for the duration of your involvement with said entity), then you are inviting problems that might to all intents and purposes amount to "insanity" in the eyes of an observer.

I would agree with this. I examined the viewpoint of entities as being produced totally internally, and found it to be both stultifying and limiting. It takes the magick out of the surrounding universe and locates it all in oneself, which I've always thought to be an egotistical premise. Putting the question aside, my personal belief is that having things get out of control like that amounts to sloppy working, and it usually boils down to a lack of care in cleansing and banishing. Another problem is that if the ego structure is too weak, the bounds between what one is working with and the self can become nebulous, and that can cause one's mind to lose it's self-control. It's a matter of giving over your belief in your ability to hold your own power. Getting into a relationship with an entity with the belief that it can take that power from you is a dangerous situation.
 
 
--
02:15 / 28.03.05
Regarding the above comment, I can't help but think of the "workings" described by Kenneth Grant in his book "Hecate's Fountain", which details, among other things, some of the more interesting workings of his New Isis Lodge back in the 50's & 60's. I couldn't help but notice that many of these rituals ended up with something going wrong, people going insane or even dying in some cases... Ethically, this is a shaky issue. One could argue that some of KG's students/lodge members perhaps were unfit for the kind of work he had in mind, but then again, what kind of a magician is Kenneth Grant if he can't keep his rituals under control? I was a little disturbed by his seeming lack of distress over these incidents, by the by: He writes things like "Sadly, poor Oola lost her mind that evening". Geez, Grant, don't get too emotional on us... Frankly, if I was running a lodge and my fellow members were being offed by Cthulhu and consumed by Yog-Sothoth, I'd probably step back a bit and wonder if this is good magic or, as Z. commented above, "sloppy working". Certainly one should expect the unexpected when one works magic, but I also think one needs some level of self-control to keep one from going out-and-out bonkers, no?

I think there's a sizeable number of first-time magicians who work with stuff like the Goetia on what not either just to prove they can or maybe to impress others or something, and because they simply aren't ready for the encounter it proves to be too much for them. I myself tend to shy away from the more hard-core spirits or gods, most of the entities I work with are fairly beign and I know I can trust and rely on them (not that I'll never work with those other spirits, I just feel that I'm not ready yet, and in any event I believe such things exist anyway, so there's no need for me to prove to myself that they do. Many other people have reported working with such things and getting results so I'll take their word for the moment). Sometimes I'll tell my brothers about some of the spirits magicians work with and they say "I don't think I could lead a normal life if I ever saw something like that". So obviously, it can take awhile to build oneself up into a state where they can deal with such encounters. Perhaps such things are around us at all times but our psychic censors block them out until the time is right.
 
 
Char Aina
21:01 / 28.03.05
But that's a different sort of transendence than the artistic type I was talking about, which is of a more abstract nature then social transactions (I think both have their merits).

have you ever been in a band?
 
 
--
00:46 / 29.03.05
Yeah, but we only played music live once, which was a really great experience... It was one of those battle-of-the-bands type things and I was in a band with some of my brothers and we were playing at my old highschool... All the other bands we were up against were emo-type pop-punk but we were doing this aggressive avant-garde punk noise stuff. That was definetly an experience I'd classify as transcendent, and I hope to do it again one day. I had never played music live before in my life and there I was onstage in front of 400+ people and for some reason I was barely nervous at all (perhaps due to the fact that I was pretending I was a rock star or something). Very fun time!
 
 
illmatic
08:08 / 29.03.05
Has it ever crossed your mind that not everything Grant writes is true?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:48 / 29.03.05
I don't think this thread has a problem with magick or boundaries. I think it has a problem with the definition of the word insane.

For example- 'O Watson old chap, bring me a cup of tea, hip hip' is clearly an example of insanity. Why? Well there's no one called Watson in the room, there's no one in hearing distance, except for the plant on my desk. Thus no one can bring me a cup of tea and I said these words with the intention of Watson (there is no one called Watson) bringing me tea. I also tagged 'hip hip' on the end. Why? No reason.

In contrast if I said 'Oi, Hecate, I'm bored love' I would not be insane because Hecate is an unbodied entity who is always in the room kind of and can hear me. You see?
 
 
--
10:05 / 29.03.05
But maybe there's an entity named Watson hanging about... a ghost or something...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:33 / 29.03.05
There isn't.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:35 / 29.03.05
Though possibly, thinking about this logically, you may be insane if an entity called Watson is hanging out with you and you actually expect it to make you a cup of tea. You haven't been doing that have you?
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:31 / 29.03.05
nah thats sherlock grant, an the hound of tindalos,ive seen opium make him tea while playing the violin.

for an experiment once we boiled a whole opium poppy plant and milked the heads. i spent the whole of reading festival in a tent investigating pot noodle, i can just about remember pop will eat itself.

indeed it does depend on what you think insanity is.

ill go for my personal definition insanity is that which isnt considered as socially acceptable convention, ie consensus opinion as dictated by experts and what the non exsistent average joe percieves to be normal.

perhaps thou insanity is just a word and there is no such thing as 'insanity', ive never seen(or felt or heard or smelt) a thing called insanity althou some x partners have come very close.

and really if this is power.gauld.
 
 
jorjun
19:21 / 29.03.05
i laughed at Nina's example of insanity. It was funny like my kids are funny - they are insane still, though I think they get straightened out at around 8 years. Right now, anything can be said, and the unexpected is expected.

Let's take a look at the word insane a bit more closely though.

San is that clean? Sanitation. Maybe even Saint. Someone with some knowledge of latin could say.

So we have insane, unclean. Why uncleanliness? It would clearly indicate the most obvious form of anti-social behaviour.

So there you have it. Are you dirty? Then you are probably a mad fucker.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:17 / 29.03.05
No no no no no. I've got paint on my hands but that doesn't make me unclean or dirty and therefore insane. On the contrary! I've got paint on my hands because I have been interacting with the world and getting on with life. The fact that I am painting a dream I had is powerful magick (for me) but in my opinion it also certifies my sanity because it takes the thing out of my head where I can obsess on it, and into the physical, where I can observe it, hide it behind the sofa, kiss it, cut it up or whatever.

Ah.

Now I have paint on my keyboard. This is in itself quite foolish, but not insane. A rainbow keyboard simply means that during my cigarette break I got so excited about this thread I felt compelled to write this without washing my hands.

See? Excitement. Dirty but good. You know you love it.
 
 
jorjun
06:48 / 30.03.05
Paint is not dirt, I mean you are unlikely to offend anyone with your unkemptness. What I am talking about is a stink. A wilful disregard of the wrinkling of the nose of an another. This might mark you as smelly and insane.
 
 
Chiropteran
12:53 / 30.03.05
What I am talking about is a stink. A wilful disregard of the wrinkling of the nose of an another. This might mark you as smelly and insane.

Or it might mark you as a dairy farmer who's just used to it. Or a new parent.

If I'm not mistaken, sanity and sanitary both trace back to Latin roots meaning "health." (Saint doesn't even enter into it (==>sanctus, sancire, "to enact, ratify, devote, consecrate.")

~L
 
 
jorjun
19:36 / 30.03.05
Have you some light to shed? The more acceptable definition of insanity is somebody that has lost a sense of proportion or perspective. Maybe this relates to the root INSAN meaning unhealthy. But it doesn't get to the fear factor. Perhaps 'contaminated' is a more explanatory word than 'insane', 'unhealthy' or 'unclean'.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:14 / 31.03.05
Lepidoptrean: Yeah, "sanity" and "sanitary" both come from the Latin sanitas (from sanus, healthy).
 
 
LykeX
07:48 / 31.03.05
Speaking of the whole insanity/smell subject, I remember a theory on schizophrenia that proposes that it is caused by a pheromonal disturbance, causing a subconscious disruption of communication with other people. This leads to a sort of social isolation, causing the person to move further and further away from the norm, until he/she is considered insane.
 
 
Char Aina
18:03 / 31.03.05
see, i was asking about being in bands because they seem to be both abstract and social.
did you notice your creative and artistic endeavour was way better when it was collaborative?
other people not only help you keep an even keel but often also lift your game.
i think we have evolved to be in communities and to function more efficiently when we collaborate, and that thinking leads me to feel that anything is better with people than without.
the only things i can think of that would be unadvisable to share are those of which you are ashamed... which you should learn to deal with or stop doing, in my humblest.

so...
um.
yeah.
get out there.
do something with someone.
depend.
be dependable.
 
 
jorjun
18:46 / 31.03.05
I am not overly familiar with the bible but would you say that Samson was insane? And if so, would getting out a bit more and making a few philistine friends have done the trick?
 
 
Eudaimonic.lvx
11:12 / 07.04.05
somebody that has lost a sense of proportion or perspective

I've just returned from a 10 day monastic Buddhist retreat, silence and meditation, sanity somewhat upgraded, well at least redefined.

But in my third day back at work now, I am just about getting proportion and perspective back, I was rendered temporarily in sane, unable to actually function at work.
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply