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Magick.. Is it worth it?

  
  

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Eudaimonic.lvx
08:39 / 18.03.05
On another board, someone posted the following as part of a discussion of whether magick is worth the cost..

I say it's worth it if avenues of expressing yourself within the world are closed.

If you're terminally ill, I say, be as spiritual and mystical as you like, cause you're not going to have to be around to pay the bills...

If you're fairly healthy, intelligent, willing to go out and grab life, then obsessing over metaphysics and magick is a waste of time, even Pete Carroll encourages people to find goals in 'realtime' with which to focus the magickal arts on..

It's a long road of contemplation and bald faced lies that have led me to conclude that this age we live in is so bursting full of opportunity and engagement with the world at large as never before, that it's almost a waste of time not being manifest in the temporal world in a meaningful way..

Example, travelling; being creative; getting a job; getting an education; working out; eating good food; falling in love; driving a car.. These are all practical exercises that can have as much if not more life lesson points then reading the Bhagavad Gita or psychonaut or pouring over the ministrations of the arcane 'mages' of the Goetic world etc etc...

Is it worth you going insane, ie: being non-functional in the world, nope, if you're already non-functional or breaking down then your trip is almost up anyway and it's time to explore the nanosphere of the (though a blatantly mastabatory phrase) the melody of entropy.


I can kinda relate to some of the things he is saying... Like I quite often think, instead of spending so long studying magick each day, I could learn a martial art and become quite profficient in it, or numerous other things... ah, but what need does it fulfil? Maybe magick fulfils a need which nothing else in this world can....?

So what do people think? What is the cost of pursuing magick and the occult? Has it enriched your life? Have you traded sanity for power?

..
MZ.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:55 / 18.03.05
Blimey, what a silly, confused person. I agree with all of his points in isolation, but he seems to be labouring under the misapprehension that magic is synonomous with a withdrawal from the "temporal world" and worldly activities. Which is a supremely twatish, yet prevalent notion.

For me, magic is about active engagement with the world. If you can't function in the world, then you are a shit magician. For me, magic involves attempting to become as effective as possible on many levels. I draw no distinction between magic and the activities of "travelling; being creative; getting a job; getting an education; working out; eating good food; falling in love; driving a car". Indeed, the magic I practice imbues all of these activities with transcendant beauty, richness and depth of meaning. They are no longer "mundane, worldy activities" performed on automatic pilot, but precious mysteries to be unfolded, today, right now, within the world. If you don't get that... if your magic is somehow seperate to the world... then we are not talking about the same thing when we use the term "magic"... if magic is not about making the world magical, then I don't know what it is about... If you miss the point so spectacularly, then you are a shit magician and I hereby sentence you to thirty years in a bedsit with Kenneth Grant books and aquisitional masturbation.

This is not to say that magic doesnt have the capacity to drive you completely fucking insane from time to time, and make you pretty much indistinguishable from the local crazy person for prolonged periods of your life. But the skill of being a magician is in being able to navigate this successfully, to be truly capable of "walking between worlds", and to fluidly become that insane person whenever you choose to be without it impacting on your ability to be, not just functional, but potent and effective within the world. The Magician is a juggler, and can juggle many things.
 
 
Spaniel
11:29 / 18.03.05
But there's a trap built into the concept of casting spells, isn't there? The whole notion of influencing the world by will alone drags with it some unfortunate baggage, like the notion that you can get things/make things happen without directly engaging with the world.

Sure, it sounds like you're getting it right, Gypsy, but I can all too easily see magick being attractive to the wrong type of people (the vulnerable, the dysfunctional, etc...) for all the wrong reasons.
 
 
Ganesh
11:59 / 18.03.05
"Driving a car" is a wondrous life-goal, then, is it?
 
 
electric monk
12:12 / 18.03.05
...like the notion that you can get things/make things happen without directly engaging with the world."

Um, no. I've found that the most effective spellwork is done in conjunction with tangible action in the "physical" realm. If I enchant for a job (for example), I durn well better pass my resume around to places that I would like to work.

I'd identify the cost/baggage more as the sudden weight of total responsibility. When you find yourself able to affect your world in a more direct way, deciding what to do with that "power" could indeed be a "trap". The "wrong type of people" make the wrong decisions and eventually get their fingers burned at the very least. I believe that magic (and the Universe) is a self-correcting system. The twats get sorted by and by. Not to say one shouldn't help a twat if possible, of course.

Magic is direct engagement with the world. If you're not doing that, you're not doing magic. Reread GL above for another dose of his consistent lucidity.
 
 
Spaniel
12:36 / 18.03.05
Reread GL above for another dose of his consistent lucidity.

Look, I know what you're saying. I know what GL is saying.
You, however, need to look again at what *I'm saying*, because I think you're misunderstanding me.

The fact is that people can get the wrong idea about magick very easily. Popular culture (wrongly) presents magick as a route to unearned power, and that's how many beginners come to it. I'm simply arguing that it isn't unreasonable to suggest that many of those attracted to magick will be attracted for all the wrong reasons, and that vulnerable people, with difficult, dysfunctional lives, will probably find those (wrong) reasons more attractive than most.

Hopefully, through a bit of study and practice, magick will help to point these people in the right direction, but that's far from guaranteed.
 
 
Spaniel
12:39 / 18.03.05
And Monk, when you're quoting me in the future, try and do so a little less selectively. You'll notice that the beginning of the sentence reads "The whole notion of influencing the world by will alone drags with it some unfortunate baggage".

Emphasis on "unfortunate baggage". Do you see?
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
12:42 / 18.03.05
People seem to be convinced that magic abdicates one of personal responsibility over one's life, when it's meant to grant one agency over one's life. Sounds to me like you're letting the tool use you, not the other way around. Magic is an intensification of life. If you have a shitty life, it'll become shittier, but only so's you can see the problems more clearly and fix them or slice through them like Gordian knots. (The first is more recommended). Whining that magic is fucking you up is pretty bratty and absurd (and I'm talking to myself here.... )
 
 
Spaniel
12:59 / 18.03.05
People seem to be convinced that magic abdicates one of personal responsibility over one's life

By "people" I hope you don't mean me.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:14 / 18.03.05
"Driving a car" is a wondrous life-goal, then, is it?

If by "driving a car" you really mean: learning a useful life skill that will improve your ability to travel around your city more effectively, improve your knowledge and understanding of your city's urban geography and psychogeography, get out of your city and see other places when you choose to, help the people you care about by being able to give them lifts when they need them, and generally improve your confidence through the process of learning and mastering something new – then it possibly can be a wondrous life goal. Subsitute "riding a bicycle" for "driving a car" if you like. If you approach such things from a certain angle, most seemingly mundane activities can be remade into magical, empowering things – from kung fu to knitting!
 
 
Ganesh
13:19 / 18.03.05
Make it a tandem, and I'm with you.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:20 / 18.03.05
>> What is the cost? Have you traded sanity for power?

Nope, I'm doing just fine. In fact, my magickal focus and experience have made me happier and enchanced my understanding of life, the universe and everything. Seriously. Of course, I'm not like a grand high level magus or anything at this point, but it's done me just fine.
 
 
Eudaimonic.lvx
13:24 / 18.03.05
magic is about active engagement with the world

So what about the idea that an approach such as Chaos magick, which is largly results orientated and agnostic, is a) better for achieving this and b) more likely to keep one grounded, than a system such as GD style ceremonial magick, with its high belief requirement, and tendancy towards mysticism.

As far as I am aware, (the board which I took the original quote from is very ceremonial focussed) there seem to be many people who are led by the system they follow, in terms of its goals, invoking this that and the other, achieving a certain mystical state etc, rather than tangible goals in line with their will for their life.

I think for me it is important to stay grounded in my magickal path, as I tend towards seeking some security in mystical experiences etc.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
14:21 / 18.03.05
Boboss: But there's a trap built into the concept of casting spells, isn't there?

Popular culture (wrongly) presents magick as a route to unearned power, and that's how many beginners come to it. I'm simply arguing that it isn't unreasonable to suggest that many of those attracted to magick will be attracted for all the wrong reasons, and that vulnerable people, with difficult, dysfunctional lives, will probably find those (wrong) reasons more attractive than most.

OK, but after your first successful spell, and after your first obvious failure at working magic, I think you'll start to see that there's no such thing as 'unearned power' in this world. There's more paths to power than we'd think, but they're all just paths; your feet have to do the walking. And it's possible that some people are so good at lying to themselves that they'd never notice that they aren't doing a damn thing - the ones who 'practice magic' by hardly doing anything at all. Yeah, there exist assholes who think they work magic, but so what? Assholes you will always have with you.

What do you want? This critique of magic implies that some change would be more ideal than the current system. What change would you like to see? Would you like everyone to come to magic for the 'right' reasons? Hell, the people coming for the wrong reasons have more to learn from it, more to potentially benefit. They can fail, but if success were guaranteed I doubt anyone would want to play. Do you want a guarantee? Or do you just want more of the 'right reasons,' or do I just not have your number at all? Pointing out that some people come for the wrong reasons - I mean, that's true. Someone could come to anything for the wrong reasons, that doesn't invalidate the thing itself.

Magic is a way of looking at the world. It isn't about how much you study. It's about how much you do it. If done right, it pretty much explains for itself why it is a good thing to do. It's about you finding awe in a street intersection, in a cup of tea, in a sunray peaking through the gray clouds of yesterday. Find that awe, and use it.

masterzen: there seem to be many people who are led by the system they follow, in terms of its goals, invoking this that and the other, achieving a certain mystical state etc, rather than tangible goals in line with their will for their life.

So you don't call getting mystical states a tangible goal? It's not 'tangible' in the most literal sense, but it certainly can change significant parts of yourself. I mean, if some divinity steps into my skin, brushes up against my mind, and breathes with me, that's going to effect every other part of my day, just as if effects all of my being. I don't think you can seperate mystical states and tangible goals, talking to Gods and hanging out with friends over a beer. One informs the other. Now if you're thinking of people who just want to be in a magical state, to the expense of all else, then yeah, that's something akin to obsession and addiction. But otherwise - I mean, if you experience a God, how can that not change what you do the next day? Can you not feel Her eyes peaking out from behind every other person you meet? Hell, some of my most important experiences came from speaking to other people when their words seemed scripted by some backstage divinity. Rather than seperate as you've presented it, these events became one and the same.
 
 
electric monk
14:32 / 18.03.05
Boboss - I think I do. I think I do. I was trying to attack the concepts being discussed, and I think I came off as attacking you. Not my intention.

To clarify: Is it your position that pop culture lumps this unfortunate baggage on to the concept of magic, or that this baggage is inherent in magic itself? I'd agree with the former.

On the general concept of baggage, I think we can all agree that people drag their baggage with them everywhere, whether it be to the corner shop, church, or the Vault of the Adepti. Pick any group you like and you'll find a certain percentage of the "wrong people" in it. And yes, the best we can all hope for is that their chosen path helps them more than it hurts them.

"Have you traded sanity for power?"

Depends who you ask. I have a good friend who's a HARDcore atheist. If you asked him, he'd tell you that his good friend Electic Monk is going to be drawing with his own shit on the asylum walls one of these days. Of course, he's currently in therapy and rapidly approaching a breakdown. I've not traded my sanity for anything. I've upgraded it.
 
 
Eudaimonic.lvx
14:52 / 18.03.05
Charlie's Horse: So you don't call getting mystical states a tangible goal?

Yeah I do, totally, and I think what you have written makes good sense to me as I understand things at the moment. I guess what I am trying to explore is the idea of whether following a certain tradition (which has overtones of mysticism) can lead one to become obsessed with those things, as one feels that one 'ought' to go for that goal as it is part of the tradition. Contrast that with a Chaos Magick approach where we have to define our own mysticism/spirituality (if we want it to be part of our own lives).... will this very process mean that we have less risk of loosing our grip on reality and becoming obsessed with being in a magical state, to the expense of all else? In short, is Chaos M (due to its atheism) less prone to becoming an obsessive escape?

Monk:I've not traded my sanity for anything. I've upgraded it.

haha :-)
 
 
electric monk
15:15 / 18.03.05
In short, is Chaos M (due to its atheism) less prone to becoming an obsessive escape?

Short answer: No. Chaos/Kaos/Qaos seems to have a reputation as a un-system existing outside the boundaries of the Western Tradition. I think of it more as a no-system system with the same pitfalls and pratfalls as every other system, due to human involvement more than anything. It's not a shortcut and it's not the easy way into the occult. It's just another hook to hang yr pointy, star-flecked hat on.

It can, however, be used as a pry bar to keep one from obsession if wielded in a certain way. I've found I can use it's basic atheism to equilibriate the percieved importance of the personal discoveries and breakthroughs I make. It helps me to remember that what I believe and do is really only meaningful to me, and can only be used as personal experience in interaction with others, not as some overarching "truth". At least, that's the goal.
 
 
electric monk
16:09 / 18.03.05
Boboss - "i am twenty five and i am into phlegm magic. It is quite chaotic when i am pissing!"

NOW I see.
 
 
Spaniel
18:45 / 18.03.05
To clarify: Is it your position that pop culture lumps this unfortunate baggage on to the concept of magic, or that this baggage is inherent in magic itself? I'd agree with the former.

Probably a bit of both. Perhaps it's unfair to say that pop culture misrepresents magick, rather magick (the term) has a different set meanings within popular culture. It is often escapist, frequently illusionary, regularly fantastical, more often than not spectacular, and almost always associated with power fantasies. I'm not sure this is *wrong*, but I think it can cause problems when people are faced with real magickal practices.

On the inherent problem bit. Well, I think there is always going to be confusion around concept of manipulating the world by will alone - even if we lived in culture where everyone received a magickal education. Just my opinion, but from where I'm standing it doesn't look too contentious.

As for bringing something of your own bad self [get down] to every endeavour, ye-es, but I was arguing that the above confusion is particularly likely to *attract* people of a vulnerable disposition, in a way that say... I dunno... pottery isn't.
 
 
Spaniel
18:50 / 18.03.05
On the issue of humour. I was one of the many drunk people on that thread. At the time it seemed like a good idea.

This forum has many virtues, but I suspect that humour isn't amongst them*.

*I am not suggesting for one second that my post was particularly funny, BTW
 
 
electric monk
20:21 / 18.03.05
I'd agree that the magical community contains it's share of pricks. I've seen 'em and it ain't pretty. I'd argue, however, that the fully self-directed magical lifestyle is most likely the best chance said pricks have of becoming better, more compassionate people. Possible naive of me to say, but there ya go.

This forum has many virtues, but I suspect that humour isn't amongst them*.
*I am not suggesting for one second that my post was particularly funny, BTW

I dunno. I've seen some funny shit round these parts. Honestly tho, humor that can be percieved as an attack on someone's belief system is not likely to be met with embarrassed chuckles. Doesn't matter if the target is a Christian, Muslim, or Thelemite. Besides, the Temple is kinda our house, if you will. We're a little possessive and, more often than not, like to keep the discussion serious. I agree, tho, that we could probably do with a laugh now and again. Healing power of...and such.
 
 
--
01:22 / 19.03.05
Oddly enough, when I got into magic I think the notion of "power" was just about the last thing on my mind. In fact I'd have to say that it was curiosity more then anything else that got me into it (also the fact I was writing a short story at the time about a magician so I decided to do some hands-on, George-Plimpton-covering-sports type of investigation). Having said that I really do think that chaos magick is the most effecient entry point into the magical lifestyle, mainly because it stresses the importance of creating your own system, which is probably one of the things I find the most interesting about the whole hulabaloo (I may not always understand just what it is that people like Spare or Grant or Bertiaux are going on about but their own personal systems of occultism often inspire me). My own system is heavily based around my writing and as a result I have a lifetime's cosmology to draw upon. Some of my characters have literally taken on lives of their own...

My only bugbear with seeing every act as a magical act is that I think it gradually lessens the uniqueness of magic. It would be like eating your favorite meal every day and nothing else: Eventually, boredom would set in. What drew me to magic, as a child, I suppose, was all the glamor associated with it: Exploring strange, exotic lands, chatting with spirits and gods, and all that. Which is why I don't align myself very much with GM's style of magic which these days mostly seems to be about corporations and NLP and things of that nature (not that those things aren't magic in their own right, it's just a type of magic I have no interest in practicing, though I do agree with GM's ideas of writing things into existence and fashion being used as a magical tool).

As for withdrawing from the temporal world, something I've done in the past every now or then, I don't think anyone ever truly withdraws because, even in my case I was still in communications with people around the world and stuff, just I was socializing with my friends via the medium of computer rather then face-to-face. Some may see this as anti-social but the fact is that this new age of IMing, e-mails, chat rooms and so on is part of the world, is modern technology (and thus our generation's type of "magic") so I'd argue that even the most introverted geeky fan boy who spends all his time on the computer is, in a way, interacting with the world (for all we know in the future face-to-face conversations could become an anomoly: One thinks of JG Ballard's notion that in the future all sex acts could very well become abstract fantasies with no human interface). I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Certainly I'm not suggesting that everyone totally withdraws and never goes outside, I'm just railing against the notion that people who socialize or interact with people online are wasting their time (which is patently untrue, otherwise, we wouldn't be here right now discussing this crap). Weird innit, I've made a lot of friends on these boards and most of them I have no idea what they look like, what their voices sound like, how they walk, and so on, yet I feel intensly for them. That's what I like about online friendships at times... Forces you to use your imagination rather then have all the details instantly filled in for you.


Quick digression: I find it interesting that the notion of "driving a car" came up, giving my own poor sense of direction and dislike of driving in the city. I've recently begun taking the bus to get to far-flung places I want to get to, and while some may scream "cop-out!" if anything it's the more social thing for me to do because rather then just driving somewhere all by my lonesome I find myself surrounded by a variety of interesting people that make every trip a unique experience (and one could view the bus itself as some type of magical god or totem spirit whose purpose is to ferry people from one location to the other). So in this manner I get to where I want to go in an effecient manner, I save money on gasoline, I don't really put any other pedestrian at risk, I get to meet different people, and best of all, don't have to waste time finding a parking space! Crowley did, after all, say that the most magical way to open up a door is to just turn the door knob. This isn't suggesting that one should never challenege oneself, but I think if you take a notion like that too far with banal, mundane activities your life becomes ridiculously complicated.
 
 
electric monk
13:58 / 19.03.05
Sypha G5 doubleplusgood - My only bugbear with seeing every act as a magical act is that I think it gradually lessens the uniqueness of magic. It would be like eating your favorite meal every day and nothing else: Eventually, boredom would set in.

This has not been my experience, and I must say I'm a little surprised to read this. Could you provide some details demonstrating how the blade of your magick has been blunted by it's continuing contact with the everyday?

To be honest, one of the most compelling reasons for magic being "worth it" to me has been the merging of the magic and mundane into one. This, to me, gives a truer sense of the Universe as it is, and has totally recolored my views on what life all about. Playing simple Gematria games with license plates on my way home from work, talking with the birds that visit my back yard, talking with the gods that lie behind the faces of everyone I meet (fantastic example there, Charlie's Horse). For me, it is not at all like eating my favorite meal every day. More like adding extra spice and flavor to every meal I eat and being better able to enjoy the richness and variety of tastes.
 
 
illmatic
08:43 / 21.03.05
just I was socializing with my friends via the medium of computer rather then face-to-face. Some may see this as anti-social but the fact is that this new age of IMing, e-mails, chat rooms and so on is part of the world, is modern technology (and thus our generation's type of "magic") so I'd argue that even the most introverted geeky fan boy who spends all his time on the computer is, in a way, interacting with the world

Oh come off it. That's complete bollocks. It's hiding from the world and reinforcing patterns of shyness and introversion. And if you bring magick into it as well, the change of our anxious bedroom bound hypotheical fanboy deluidng himself are greatly increased. Magick requires a critical perspective and if you're frightned to go out the front door the chnces of you cultivating clear perceptions are minimal. The internet in this instance acts like the astral plane ie. a place for all the fucking loonies to hang out and waste all their time.

for all we know in the future face-to-face conversations could become an anomoly: One thinks of JG Ballard's notion that in the future all sex acts could very well become abstract fantasies with no human interface

Look, that's a science fiction writers creative conceit, not a real thing that is likely to happen. "Wouldn't it be wonderful to never have to talk to anybody every again and download my consciousness into the matrix. I could leave behind my body, my emotions. my crippling sense of shame and lack of self-worth and all those others thing that are holding me back. I'd never have to deal with them and grow as a person." Surely, all the best writers are those who lived amazing lives so they had something to fucking document?

Sypha, I think you post some interesting stuff sometimes, but overall you strike me as someone who's trying to write himself a new life without endangering himeslf by actually going out and living it.
 
 
--
14:14 / 21.03.05
Well, I think the problem here is that I was speaking hypothetically and playing devil's advocate, and you assumed that I was speaking pro and con towards certain things. The point I was trying to make was that their is a rising culture who young people who do place internet interactions on the same level as real world interactions, and I suppose to previous generations this may seem horribly anti-social but to them it's no big deal: I guess that what we have here is some new type of socialization that's replaced the idea of sending letters (H.P. Lovecraft's link to the outside world was primarily his letters and correspondances, so I guess he was the old Aeon version of today's anti-social internet geek, just he was sending out mail instead of e-mail).

Certainly I won't deny that I myself went through a period where I spent a tad too much time on the internet, but that pretty much ended when I got my full-time job a year ago and was forced into a situation where I had to socialize and communicate with other people (hence, in the first paragraph you quoted, the words "I was"). Though I will say that I was never so bad that I was afraid to leave the front door, as I recall doing a lot of shopping and going on long walks during that period. I think many magicians go through a temporary period of introversion, hermeticism, whatever you wish to call it: If anything it increases one's enjoyment of the opposite later on (just like one needs to know sadness to fully appreciate happiness, chaos to enjoy order, and so on).

Now, this is a digression and it's not really related to the topic, but you did bring it up, so: There are times where I think certain things or certain attitudes despite the fact that I know that it isn't a magical way of thinking (for example, a customer gets on your case at work and you think "fuck humanity, all people are shit", or something like that). I suppose my biggest magical flaw, like Blavatsky, is my distate with the human body in general. It may have something to do with my various "status ailments" (or maybe I was a puritan Gnostic in a past life) but I just always feel that the body, flesh, whatever you wish to call it should be transcended. I mentioned Blavatsky back there and I don't know much about her aside from the basics but I do recall reading in "The Magician's Dictionary" that she constantly deplored the fact that she was in an obese, crippled body that she couldn't control. Certainly there are times when I feel trapped in my own flesh, imprisoned by genetics into this form that I had no say over, and any attempts I've had to appreciate the flesh have been thwarted by a barrage of chest pains, back pains, intestinal issues, and general malaise. My only solution to this has been to watch what I eat and exercise more, which helps a bit but still not that much. Obvioulsy someone with a healthy body, healthy sex life or whatever would have a different viewpoint re: the body, but I've said stuff like this before and it's not revelant to the thread so I'll stop there rather then go on endlessly about my hang-ups as I've done in the past (to the annoyance of certain people, I've been told) ...
 
 
Katherine
14:51 / 21.03.05

Yes magic is definately worth it in my opinion. It adds an extra option to my choices in most cases.

Magic is a skill, just like martal arts or anything else you have to learn. Ok, yes instead of practicing magic you can instead practice karate or something. It all depends on which skill you want or rather which one will be the most useful in the long term.
 
 
electric monk
15:36 / 21.03.05
Much as I hate to do this...

G-Syph - Well, I think the problem here is that I was speaking hypothetically and playing devil's advocate, and you assumed that I was speaking pro and con towards certain things.

To be honest, Syph, I also get the impression, despite your protestations and based on your previous contributions to the board, that you are not speaking hypothetically here at all. Above, as in so many other places, you fall back on Crowley sez/GM sez/Ken Grant sez/etc. to support your statements. It can be a little wearing, not especially convincing and seems, to me, like pre-conceived notions draped over a literary scaffolding.

I'm still hoping to read examples of how "seeing every act as a magical act...gradually lessens the uniqueness of magic." Sorry for selective quoting ;-) but you know what I'm getting at.
 
 
--
01:09 / 22.03.05
electronic monk, I'd say about 90% of my initial statement was hypothetically speaking, unless you honestly believe that I think that a future without physical sex is a good thing. Also, by previous contributions to the board, are you referring to just the Temple or Barbelith itself, because I post in quite a few of the forums and pretty much the only one I ever get flack in is this one (well, there was one occassion in Conversation, but that was an isolated incident). I think in regards to myself you should consider the sum of the parts. Certainly someone who just reads what I post in the Temple will have a different viewpoint of me then one who only reads what I post at, say, the music section... But that's neither here nor there.

Secondly, I name-check quite a bit (I don't namecheck Crowley too often though) but all my observations on magic are, ultimetly, in regards to my own personal observations/experiences. I'm not some blind fawning parrot and I'm well aware that many of the well-regarded magicians have many weak points. I mean, I'll be the first to admit I'm a huge KG fanboy but I'm not blind to the fact his viewpoints on modern music and homosexuality (among other things) are painfully out of touch with today's society. Furthermore, if there's any magician I seek to emulate these days, it's Paris Hilton more then anything else.

Now, to answer your question (and I think I defended my initial statement adequetly, but I'll try again) I really don't see a purpose to viewing every single act as a magical act. I think it's denying that some things in life are very boring, no matter how much we try to gloss it up (hey, trust me, I've tried: When I used to push shopping carriages around at me old supermarket job I used to sometimes pretend "I am a shepard, and these carriages are my flock. It is my job to see that they get safetly back to their homes". Eventually, though, I had to break down and say "This is pointless.This job is dull and mechanical, and it's inefficient to think otherwise"). Frankly, I think boredom can be a good thing... Makes those non-boring momemnts all the more thrilling. But hey, to each their own. Certainly there's nothing wrong with seeing everything as a magical act, I just don't see much of a point in doing so.
 
 
Z. deScathach
05:17 / 22.03.05
I practice magick because it makes the universe a living, breathing entity to me. People are not merely THINGS to me. They are siritual entities. It wasn't always that way. Oh sure, I followed the rules, but before I began practicing magick, the world was a decidedly "dead" place. I watch people around me grousing about what someone wears, what country they come from, what consenting adult or adults they sleep with, and it reminds me of "the real life" that I DO NOT want. I look at these miserable people, and wouldn't trade my life with their's for a million dollars.

A concept of magick is to relate to the universe, and the universe includes people, animals, grass, trees, and a billion other things. I hear the average person in my small town, and I can't understand nine tenths of what they say. The say that Somalians are barberic and lazy and smell bad, to me, they are just friendly people. They say gays should be shot. Since I'm homosexual, I don't understand why I should be shot, I think I'm a nice person. I see a person with blue hair walk down the street and get yelled at with obsenities. Apparently these people's minds are not strong enough to avoid being annoyed to the point of becoming raving lunatics by the sight of someone with blue hair. Magick has taught me focus, concentration, and the skill of examining cause and effect. I personally don't want a mind and constitution that is so weak that I can't cope with someone with blue hair. Does that make me an elitist? You betcha.......

In response to the potential arguement of, "Well, not everyone is like that.." I would counter that I know many people who are not like that, and all of them seem to have a spiritual orientation. The atheists that I know also hold to a "principle", a viewpoint of life that ethically guides them. Magick is but one spiritual orientation among many. Anything that enables people to strengthen their minds to the point that they do not behave like assholes IMHO should be applauded. Yes, I know about the question, "What about Christianity?" I know some nice Christians. They seem to have a very finctioning faith that encourages questioning and a relationship with God. The persons who want gays killed question nothing. They merely point to their rulebook, the Holy Bible.

Perhaps I'm living a fantasy life, but I damn well intend to stay there. Yes, I know, there are assholes that practice magick, but has been mentioned, the internal forces that they set lose frequently destroy them. As Hakim Bey once said, "the universe wants to play", but there is a cost for playing badly. Gleefully hurt your friends on the playground, and sooner or later you get thwapped. Gleefully hurt the Universe, and sooner or later.....you get thwapped.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:01 / 22.03.05
I think it's denying that some things in life are very boring, no matter how much we try to gloss it up... Certainly there's nothing wrong with seeing everything as a magical act, I just don't see much of a point in doing so.

You miss the point horrifically. You don't have to "gloss up" a tree or the ocean or a thunderstorm to "make" them magical. The world is inherently magical. I'm not talking about indulging in wanky intellectual games such as pretending shopping trolleys are cattle to be herded in order to make your day a bit more interesting. But engaging with reality in such a way that there is a constant two-way dialogue between yourself and everything that surrounds you. Z. deScathach says it better than me: "I practice magick because it makes the universe a living, breathing entity to me."

To me, this is what magic is about, when it comes alive like that. I don't think you get it, and I don't think you will.
 
 
illmatic
08:31 / 22.03.05
The point I was trying to make was that their is a rising culture who young people who do place internet interactions on the same level as real world interactions

I would disagree with "on the same level". Okay, we've got new technologies emerging but anybody who things staring at 256 x 256 pixels and communicating through dumbed down textspk is equivalent to the delights of the five senses, the beauty of the material world and the potential thrills, frustations and flirtations of social interaction, has a serious fucking problem, I don't care how old they are. You mention Lovecraft... wasn't Lovecraft really, really fucked up? Lived in an attic, ate the same meal every day, no sexlife or romantic involvements EVER? Hardly a role model.

I suppose my biggest magical flaw, like (insert obligatary occult reference here), is my distate with the human body in general.

Well, I think that is fundamentally unhealthy. You claim to be a magician. Sort it out.
 
 
Z. deScathach
09:47 / 22.03.05
I mentioned Blavatsky back there and I don't know much about her aside from the basics but I do recall reading in "The Magician's Dictionary" that she constantly deplored the fact that she was in an obese, crippled body that she couldn't control. Certainly there are times when I feel trapped in my own flesh, imprisoned by genetics into this form that I had no say over, and any attempts I've had to appreciate the flesh have been thwarted by a barrage of chest pains, back pains, intestinal issues, and general malaise.

I can certainly understand how you feel, Sypha. I have very severe nerve damage. Recently, it has flaired up, to the point where it is extremely difficult due to the pain to even sit at a computer. Still, I find that magick has helped me in this area. It has taught me to dive into my pain, swim in it like a fish swims in the ocean. Then, my pain becomes a help rather than a hindrance to me. My pain has taught me the ability to ride discomfort like a wave. There's power in that. Please understand that I don't want to discount what you feel. There are times when the levels of pain in me have driven me to despair. I simply wanted to discuss possibilities, the possibilities that magick offers.....

I think it's denying that some things in life are very boring, no matter how much we try to gloss it up (hey, trust me, I've tried: When I used to push shopping carriages around at me old supermarket job I used to sometimes pretend "I am a shepard, and these carriages are my flock. It is my job to see that they get safetly back to their homes". Eventually, though, I had to break down and say "This is pointless.This job is dull and mechanical, and it's inefficient to think otherwise").

Thing is, pretending to make something interesting doesn't make it interesting. What makes it alive is opening to it. Opening to the mundane. When I'm pushing a shopping cart in a store, I just let myself go silent. Then I let my senses reach out and engulf what is around me. It comes alive. I can honestly say, Sypha, that I have felt absolute ecstacy in a Walmart parking lot, not because I was going shopping, or because anything exciting was going on. I felt that ecstacy because for a moment, my ego loosened, and I became one with it. All of it. Then of course, it went away.....

I suppose my point in replying to this isn't to contradict what you say, it's to say what possibilities magick offers. No, I'm not enlightened. I get pissy, and quite frankly the level of pain I live with sometimes has made me want to check out. I make mistakes, and frequently trip over my self. But I always go on, because at the other end is what magick gives me, an indescribable feeling of "aliveness". Quite frankly, if it weren't for magick, I am quite sure that I would have checked out some time ago. That speaks to this thread, IMO. Magick doesn't trade sanity for power. It can restore both sanity AND power.
 
 
_Boboss
10:53 / 22.03.05
lovecraft was married for a bit, about three healthy happy years which, upon ending, supplied the direct impetus for all the cthulhu business.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:35 / 22.03.05
youve definatley all traded sanity for power,any set of philosophical view points traded for experential being is complete and utter madness, but seriously........
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:12 / 22.03.05
I haven't traded sanity for power, I traded the immortal souls of thirteen innocent babies for power.
 
  

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