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A0S
06:13 / 15.03.05
This is my first post outside the Welcome Newcomers thread so please be gentle with me.
If you have read that thread you will know I work for a charity. I have done a search of this forum and it seems we have never had a debate on charities so I thought I would start one. It's just out of personal interest I won't be feeding back the results to anyone.
A couple of weeks ago I heard someone say that we shouldn't support charities because by doing so we are freeing the government from some of it's social responsibilities, do you agree?
Do you give to charity because you feel you should or do you not give because you feel you should and are rebeling against it?
Are there too many charities covering similar areas of need?
Over to you people.
 
 
Jub
09:00 / 15.03.05
Charity is supposed to be private person's benevolences isn't it? It's not meant to be the government who controls the money - or the means with which money is given - given to various charitable causes.

Recently on the trains in London I've heard an announcement which says don't give money to beggers as that will only make them worse and we've already given them some cash. This worries me on three levels. Firstly, that people who need to beg find it increasingly difficult. Secondly, that the train company is spending my ticket money on charities without my say so, and lastly that people feel okay about not giving money because their train company has. I'm going to check how much they do give and to whom.
 
 
A0S
09:17 / 15.03.05
I totally agree. I think the point the person who said don't give was trying to make was that the government should provide for the homeless (to use your example) rather than them having to rely on charities like Shelter. In effect it's a form of opt out like BUPA doing the NHS's job except the opt out is forced and the bill is paid by the donors.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:52 / 15.03.05
A couple of weeks ago I heard someone say that we shouldn't support charities because by doing so we are freeing the government from some of it's social responsibilities, do you agree?

I don't think that's a reason to keep your support from charities- simply because the system is imperfect and the government doesn't give enough money to research, patient care etc. However I would prefer it if we could rely on governments to fund these things properly, my opinion is that their social responsibility is above and beyond that of any individual. The way to enact that isn't to hold back funds from organisations that are prepared to step in to the shoes that a government body should be filling.

Do you give to charity because you feel you should or do you not give because you feel you should and are rebeling against it?

I sometimes give to charity, I always give money to Alzheimers charities if they're collecting on the street. I give money to people who are begging pretty much everyday, to shelter, to cancer research, Terence Higgins, AIDS Awareness and MacMillan if I see them. I gave some cash to Tsunami Relief in January. Not because I should but because I hope if I needed it someone would give me some money.

Are there too many charities covering similar areas of need?

No. It's very easy to think this is the case but actually 500 cancer charities can all do different things- help children or parents or the middle aged with their illness. Fund research, open hospices... it would be more effective if we centralised and gave this money through the state, ensuring that every aspect was covered and adequately funded but then that's why I believe in effective government. I don't think charities are the ideal way to do this.
 
 
A0S
10:48 / 15.03.05
Tsunami Relief raised unprecedented sums (and worried many charities not involved with it in case their fundraising suffered as a result).
Why do you think it raised so much.
Was it the scale of the disaster? Most people can't even imagine hundreds of thousands of people dead.
Was it the timing? Festive season. Goodwill to all men etc.
Was it the familiarity of the area? Most people even if they haven't been Tailand themselves know someone who has.
or did the disaster trigger some sort of emotional meme in the way it has been suggested the death of Princess Diana did?
 
 
sleazenation
11:14 / 15.03.05
The Tsunami happened in what is traditionally a slow news week and dominated the screens of 24 hour news channels particularly in the US (CNN virtually became the Tsunami channel). This combined with the scale of the disaster and the notion of Christmas being 'a time for giving' all acted to produce an unprecidented response for various charities.

I doubt we would have seen anywhere near the same reaction/coverage if the Tsunami had occurred at the end of January...

On interesting consequence of the over-funding resulting from Tusnami charity appeals is the quandry many more general purpose charities finding themselves in of possibly diverting cash away from a well funded cause to an equally worthy cause and the reaction that causes in the donors.


This probably strikes at the very heart of the Charity equation - who is worthy of charity and who decides their worth. Faith-based charities are unlikely to provide help for much needed resources that clash with their religious docterine... I'm thinking here of Catholic charities in Africa, a country ravaged by AIDS and their continuing refusal to condone the use of condoms....
 
 
hoatzin
12:11 / 15.03.05
I give to charities which provide aid in areas I am particularly interested in. I gave money to the tsunami appeal and would have done so whenever it occurred. Giving to many third world charities always seems like bailing out a leaky boat, it is a never-ending task and some areas of the world are simply never going to be able to sustain the number of people living in them, and a more radical solution might be better. [see the Spike Milligan joke, 'I wouldn't start from there']. The tsunami was a one-off disaster which could have happened anywhere, and I gave to it because the need was immediate, and I hope others would help us if we suffered similarly. If too much was given, it can be diverted elsewhere and I have contacted the charity concerned to tell them that I have no objections to them doing so.
It is not solely up to the government to provide aid. Should'nt we all do what we can in the areas that apply to us, or where we have greater interest?
I have always given money to animal charities, to Shelter etc. and to Greenpeace. These I give to because it is about the only way I can give support, and over the years I have seen some advances in general awareness, so perhaps some good is done.
I am quite judgemental in that I would never give money to a Catholic charity, or even to a C.of E. one because of their perplexing attitude to contraception, AIDs and condoms.
 
 
astrojax69
20:26 / 17.03.05
I doubt we would have seen anywhere near the same reaction/coverage if the Tsunami had occurred at the end of January..

dunno, sleazenation. i think the tsunami was a disaster on such a massive (and visual!) scale that it would have received the blanket coverage it did - most nationalites were affected and it plays into the whole 'meteor hitting the earth' scenarios we are coming to expect, thru movies, etc...

and look at what else happened while our attention was on the indian ocean shoreline: a new palestinian leader, for one! with all the previous [and indeed current] attention on the middle east, to eclipse that shows its importance to the global media.


charities will always exist, i think, because no bureaucracy will ever be sufficiently flexible or well funded to attend to all needs... frankly, i would rather give to fundamental human needs, like the guide dogs, red cross (i donate blood - what do people think about this form of charity?) and the like, than cancer research, though i condone their efforts. but industry and government should do more funding of science and i would rather pay money to my charities of choice and lobby govt for policy change.

i also work in science and seek business funding for it.

welcome to the board, zoskia... : )
 
 
A0S
05:09 / 18.03.05
Thanks for the welcome
Your point about science relates to something I was going to say about previous posts. AFAIK most charities including the one I work for have an ethical policy on how they raise money (so as not to accept money from those who seek to make political or moral capital out of donating)but not on how they spend that money. In situations where science has provided a prevention if not a cure such as condoms and AIDS should a charity be allowed to condem the scientific solution on moral grounds therefore becoming part of the problem rather than part of the solution? I don't think they should but who should stop them, the UN?
 
 
Quantum
17:42 / 21.03.05
As a professional fundraiser for a variety of charities I have to raise a point- people support 'Charity' in the abstract quite often. Many people feel that if they support the RSPCA (for example) they are exempt from supporting the NSPCC (for example).

Many, many times a day people say to me 'But I already support charity'
 
 
astrojax69
20:21 / 21.03.05
so the tricky bit is making your case that your organisation appeals to them - and deliberately loaded terms here.

so does there become a viscious circle against marketing anything? or does this show us that 'marketing' isn';t necessarily an evil against which we shouyld be expending so much energy that might be better used elsewhere?? which way does the slippery slope slide?

[part of my job involves seeking funding for a science centre]
 
 
HCE
23:38 / 21.03.05
I don't think there's any one right answer as to whether to give to charity or not. I don't, for a few reasons:

1. I don't want to buy off my conscience.
2. I don't want to pay for administrative costs.
3. I know people personally who have chronic illnesses and no insurance, and I prefer to give money, time, a hand with buying groceries, administering medication, doing laundry, etc. to my friends rather than to an organization.

If everyone did what I do, though, it would be awful. I think this is a case where asking yourself what would happen if everyone did what you do is not really a good technique.
 
 
astrojax69
03:10 / 22.03.05
3. I know people personally who have chronic illnesses and no insurance, and I prefer to give money, time, a hand with buying groceries, administering medication, doing laundry, etc. to my friends rather than to an organization.

they say charity begins at home!


why do you resent paying administration costs? do you imagine highly skilled and trained professionals (medics, engineers, machine operators, etc) should also donate their time and energies, concurrently forgoing any other opportunity to earn an income? delivering services many charities fund need funding *because* they are expensive.

don't confuse the expense of delivery with the urgency of the need...

but you have a charitable ethos already - and a rare one - if you concentrate your philanthropy on needy friends. good upon you! it is surprising how often we 'give to a charity' but don't give to those close to us...


have you ever accepted charity?

i think this makes a difference in understanding... do you, zoskia? others?
 
 
A0S
05:40 / 22.03.05
Good point. I do think having accepted charity or having seen someone you know benefit from one does make a difference. I have worked for two charities and because of the type of charities they are I will never qualify for help from them if I needed it. But I have obviously seen their benefits in action so I do support them financialy. I also support the fire service fund because when my sister was widowed (her husband was killed while working as a fireman)they supported her and my nephews.
As to the admin point. Yes it would be great if everyone gave their time and knowledge for nothing but my job is my job, I don't have any other means of support. If I wasn't paid to work for a charity I would have to work elseware and I wouldn't have time to volunteer for a charity. The main reason I got into charity work was that I didn't want to be making more money for shareholders or overpaid mega bosses.
 
 
A0S
06:08 / 22.03.05
Just a point on marketing. The charity I work is quite young (formed 1990) and has always had positive marketing showing the after effects of your donations. This hasn't always been sucessful as it seems negative marketing is more sucessful because it is more 'emotive'. The whole Band/Live/Aid campaign proved that. What would make you donate? A happy child holding a bowl of food or a starving one?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:32 / 22.03.05
Glad this thread cropped up, as it leads me back to thread I seem unable to find from a few months ago, where, to cut a long story short, Ganesh started by asking if people believed in (a or any) God. This swiftly descended, as such things often do, into a bit of a bitch-fest about religion and specifically my experience this time last year in Bath...I was outside the abbey after the Easter service, and talking to a very friendly homeless fella, sharing some tobacco. Hundreds of committed church-goers filed out and not one, not a single one, gave a bean to this guy, who was begging.

I kind of took exception this, but was rebuked by a board member (I forget who, sorry) who was insistent that there was 'adequate' provision of charity for such cases, and maybe the folks had 'already given' or made regular donations or whatever. But surely this is to ignore the actual situation in front of you - a human being asking for your help, directly. Face to face. Want, give. Help.

Sorry, at work, have to go, will come back and be more lucid, but would like to open up discussion as to how (if at all) charity actually provides a kind of apologetic for ignoring actual suffering encountered.
 
 
Jub
10:16 / 22.03.05
sidenote:

I kind of took exception this, but was rebuked by a board member (I forget who, sorry) who was insistent that there was 'adequate' provision of charity for such cases

An excellent thread - which can be found here.

Your bit about Bath is half way down the 2nd page and Orr's rebuke about giving to charity is near the bottom of the 3rd.
 
 
A0S
10:41 / 22.03.05
Money's post reminds me of something that never fails to annoy me - people or companies who think that attending a religious service or giving to charity somehow justifies acting like a complete f**ker in all their other dealings while retaining the ability to look down on those who don't attend or give. Grrrrrr
 
 
Katherine
14:18 / 22.03.05
The thing I always find a tad annoying about some charities is those which use people to bug you in the street. You know the ones where you are innocently (as much as you can in London) walking along and they jump out in front of you and demand your bank details. Ok they don't quite do the highway robbery and majority of them are very polite but when I say no, I really don't warrent chapter and verse about how evil I am and there are people staving because of my cruel actions.
I give in a variety of different ways but I will never give over my bank details to do so. I would like to think I support charities but personally I can't afford to give money every month. I don't give money to people begging, I will however give a sandwich and hot drink but that's the way I am.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:09 / 23.03.05
Cheers for that link, Jub, I've been trying to find that thread, but the search function seems to be shafted.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:41 / 28.03.05
It is. You're better off using Google. However:

I kind of took exception this, but was rebuked by a board member (I forget who, sorry) who was insistent that there was 'adequate' provision of charity for such cases, and maybe the folks had 'already given' or made regular donations or whatever. But surely this is to ignore the actual situation in front of you - a human being asking for your help, directly. Face to face. Want, give. Help.

Rereading this, I had a look at the original and was startled at the difference between this memory of the exhange and the actual exchange. Orr was saying, specifically, that the donations that the churchgoers were makign to the church were funding homeless centres and support - that is, that they were actually helping that homeless person, but the nature of that help was not immediately visible. An immediately visible form of help would be, say, to have given that individual homeless person money,but would that actually have had meaningful positive impact?

That is, the form of giving that an individual is more _comfortable_ with is not necessarily the only or the best way to do it. On-the-spot donations are indeed easiest to tie into immediate feelings of sympathy and shared humanity, but they also have a limited and utterly personal impact. They are also convenient - they allow the giver a happy feeling that they have reaffirmed their link with common humanity, cemented by an immediate and personal giving of thanks - and they have no strings attached - not even the need to set up a direct debit or provide bank details. That is, it has advantages and disadvantages.

On one extreme you have Leaptopianism, where all help for the needy is provided by individual contributions of money and time and, at the highest level, organisations organised at parish level - so, assistance is parcelled out according to need and also according to deservingness; because help is managed at the community level, the community gets to judge who gets charity. At the other extreme we have the mindset that informs the signs in London asking people not to give money to people on the street as it funds crime and drug addiction - that is, a top-down model where funds are collected and assigned to projects through a) taxes and b) institutional charity. I imagine that most of us walk a line between these two - giving both to institutional charities, through direct debits, cash in tins at stations and so on - and individual-to-individual donations of cash or food to individuals we decide we want to be the benefactors of our munificence.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:49 / 29.03.05
but would that actually have had meaningful positive impact?

I guess it would depend on who is ascribing the meaning...as you say, it would have *only* personal impact, so from the point of view of the individual, yes, from the point of view of the bursar of the church-funded homeless charity, perhaps not.

I also question the notion that giving money to the church automatically equates to supporting local charity and the homeless one might encounter in one's locale...I'll accept that whatever's left after the ecumenical fiscal needs are serviced most likely finds its way to Worthy Causes. Whether or not these needs are more or less than similar secular bursaries would be interesting to find out.
 
 
HCE
23:39 / 29.03.05
"why do you resent paying administration costs? "

Not sure where resentment comes into it. It's just not what I want to do with my money.

I don't know whether I've received charity -- I've been bailed out financially by my family. Is that charity?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:45 / 30.03.05
Dwight: In that model, no - it's something that can be describeds as charity, or as charitable, but does not have the involvement of a charity. It's village-green socialism, essentially - people contributing time and resources to helping their family and friends, and receiving time and resources from their family and friends in turn.

Money Shot:

I also question the notion that giving money to the church automatically equates to supporting local charity and the homeless one might encounter in one's locale

I think that's absolutely a questionable notion, but has anyone actually expressed it? Giving money to a church can probably be seen as comparable to giving to any other institution - some goes on running costs, the rest on what the organisation wants to do with it, which aims may coincide with yours.

So, anyway, meaning in charitable action is created by the giver? That's interesting, not least because it gives the giver great power to decide the significance of his or her actions. Next question revolves around the question of "meaningful, positive" rather than simply "meaningful". That's going to be a difficult one to quantify. For example, you gave this individual homeless person attention, company, tobacco and rolling papers. None of those cost very much to you and, in a Mister Wendell stylee, they may have meant a big deal to him. Are they more or less meaningful and more or less positive than contributing a chunk of income to your local church, which then runs a centre where that homeless man can have a meal, a place to sleep, and so on? That becomes a judgement call, and also a question of what is meaningful to both giver and recipient. So:

But surely this is to ignore the actual situation in front of you - a human being asking for your help, directly. Face to face. Want, give. Help.

Question is, does that model of "want-give" favour an uncomplicated relationship with purely personal charity, which has its uses but also its demerits? You can look at this in the context of the prevalence of addiction to alcohol and drugs among homeless people, if you like - as discussed above, in fact - where giving money to an individual "want-give" might actually be a meaningful negative impact on their prospects for life, as against giving money to a charity or other organisation with different priorities. So, if you give money to an individual, you accept that you have no control over what that individual spends it on. You can get around that by providing some other perishable good - tobacco, food, hot beverages - but by doing that you start to control what you feel that individual should have access to - in effect, that you don't trust them to use your gift responsibly, and you want them to use it the way you think they ought to, so you have to lock down their options. Then there's the question of the comparable virtues of spending, say £1.50 on a cheese and tomato sandwich for an individual, and the amount of bread, margarine, cheese and tomato it could buy, minus administrative expenses, at a shelter.

So, bit more complicated than it first appears. One way of getting around that is to accept that charitable donation is ultimately about caprice - it's a pleasurable way to spend your money, and as the person spending that money you get to decide how to do it to maximise your own enjoyment of charity - whether that is a grateful look from your individual recipient or the comfy knowledge that a fiver is going from your bank to Shelter every month.

Which leads perhaps to Archraven's:

I really don't warrent chapter and verse about how evil I am and there are people staving because of my cruel actions.

One of the joys of charity is that it makes you feel good when you give - that's the pull model. The push model is making you feel bad if/when you don't. Many causes requesting charity, from individuals to organisations, depends on a combination of pull and push models. Is either of these "better", practically or ethically?
 
 
Katherine
09:30 / 30.03.05
Interesting although my response was to those people who are employed to jump on you as you are walking in the street.

Out of curiousity is there any method that charities use that really annoy you, to the point you may not want to actually give to that charity?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:27 / 30.03.05
Interesting although my response was to those people who are employed to jump on you as you are walking in the street.

Yes, I know. And if their motivational tactic is the feeling of badness when you decline to sign up, that's a push model. In fact, it's a mixed approach, as most are - if you do sign up you get the bright smile, the thanks and the reinforcement that you are a good person.

Of course, this model has its problems. One of those is if you are genuinely unable to donate, in which case the pull becomes ineffectual and the push either just makes you feel bad or causes resentment. Possibly resentment will make you less likely a) to give to that charity when you next have the means or b) to give to any charity using that means, but, it just struck me, if you're being employed to solicit donations then how well other charities, or even other people collecting for the same charity, is presumably less of a concern...
 
 
lord henry strikes back
12:20 / 31.03.05
Reading through this thread one element that does not appear to have been explored is the role of fashion, by which I mean with which causes/charities is it seen to be fashionable to be associated. There was an interesting article that touched on this on the Guardian website last week. The basic point raised is that, while breast cancer and prostate cancer are responsible for comparable numbers of deaths in the UK, prostate cancer receives far less in the way of donations, has far less charities working in the field, does not have it's own day, a coloured ribbon, celebrity faces, and all the rest. I don't think that this is an isolated case and to me it is a little worrying.

Does this suggest a trend towards charity branding? Are charities now less interested in good will and more in column inches and celebrity endorsements? Will this lead to competition between charities?
 
 
hoatzin
09:15 / 01.04.05
The comparatively low profile of prostate cancer compared with breast cancer was pointed out to me some time ago by a male friend. Once pointed out to me it did seem odd; looking into it further, one of the reasons is that 6% of breast cancers occur in women under 40, whilst only 1/1000 of 1% of prostate cancers occur in men under 40. So prostate cancer is viewed as an old persons' illness, and also as yet the diagnostic state is still in it's infancy. Prostate surgery at the moment can have nasty side effects [incontinence, impotence], and for many years breast cancer surgery also had bad side effects; is there much point in advocating early detection and operation until something better can be done? Having said all that, it's highly probable, I hope, that all the money and publicity for breast cancer has advanced the treatment to it's present stage where horribly invasive surgery is now usually avoidable.
There is already competition for publicity amongst charities- catch peoples' attention and there can be amazing response [eg tsunami and comic relief]. All I can say is that those concerned about a particular issue could perhaps try to raise awareness about it. This doesn't always involve money.
 
 
hoatzin
10:08 / 01.04.05
Sorry, statistics wrong here, please ignore! But point is still valid.
 
 
alas
22:37 / 06.04.05
I think the question of whether one has been the recipient of charity is a good one. I received welfare payments and food stamps while raising my nieces as foster children, and it was a humbling experience, I can tell you. I do think all middle-class people should be on food stamps for awhile. I wanted to tell everyone that I was getting them because I was doing a good deed. Really!... People do scrutinize the grocery cart when you're using food stamps, let me tell you.

Ok, so that's not exactly charity as defined in this thread, but in the US being on welfare is often construed as receiving the WORST form of charity imaginable because it is equated with a kind of moral weakness, almost a kind of "theft"--or graft at least--from "good working people."
 
 
Benny the Ball
10:27 / 07.04.05
I have a problem giving to charity, mainly for the reasons given above by NCDwight.

I would much rather donate time and energy myself to something - if there was a system similar to jury service, where people gave a week of their time, which didn't effect work holiday etc, then I would be all for this.

As it stands, I work occasionally, and have a lot of down time, in which I try to help out at schools with children having learning and reading difficulties, not for any moral reasons, just because I enjoy it. I'd much rather do this than pay a DD monthly to a charity.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
07:57 / 13.04.05
I don't have much time to post, so apologies for dive bombing the thread again...

"The salvation of mankind depends upon everybody being responsible for everything all the time"...I forget which particular Greek scholar said this, but I'm sure Haus can tell us.

Assuming there is wisdom in them thar words, what implications does this notion have for some of the issues so far explored (charity as apologetic for consumerism and inequality in society for example)?
 
 
Jub
10:28 / 13.04.05
That sounds like Satre rather than the Greeks - I could be wrong though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:33 / 13.04.05
Solzhenitsyn, I believe.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:42 / 13.04.05
On a related topic, I was reading about Hogarth earlier, and his funding of Bedlam, and the way charity functioned in the 18th century, where there was no system for the management of looking after the poor and needy through a state system. You had parish charity - dues from members of the parish being channelled to the needy - and individual charity, where members of society went and did good works, for whatever reason. Gladstone going amongst the fallen women, Dr. Barnado and his children, and so on... individuals were doing the work that we now generally ascribe to the duties of the state and to organised charities. Was this way of doing it more or less efficient? It's hard to tell. It was certainly, in some ways, more open to abuse. It also functioned on the idea that there was a moral imperative for the wealthy and able to help the poor and unable. Philanthropists could certainly still feel good about being philanthropists, but it tied in to a broader sense of moral responsibility that I think a lot of people now simply do not have, and which certainly does not apply universally. Which is quite interesting, because it then means a) that we don’t feel compelled to help people simply because we can, and b) we get to feel extra good about helping when we do, because we are not doing so because of some dominant moral (Christian) compulsion. Giving ten pounds to a Tsunami Relief charity might make you feel a lot better than paying a thousand pounds in taxes, even if ten pounds of that ends up going to global economic relief and disaster relief, and giving five pounds to a single hungry person may make you feel better yet, because an unusually beneficient action will result in immediate and personal gratitude.

BtB’s proposal of a week of “good works jury service” – either some or all people spending a week or so doing good works of some kind - is interesting. There are matters currently in place that are not entirely unlike that – for example, some Scandinavian countries have national service but small standing armies, so a lot of people when called up choose instead to do voluntary work, I think. We could indeed look at a Labour proposition to offer council tax savings to people who are prepared to volunteer – the idea being not just that the money stays in your pocket rather than going to a local council that assigns it to deal with the same problems, but that you become more engaged with your community and its needs – that is, that it provides beneficial social effects that deputing a charitable organisation or a government organisation to deal with the problem would not.
 
  

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