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Underground > Comic Books >

Vimanarama #2

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Yotsuba & Benjamin!

14:20 / 09.03.05

OMFGWTFLOL

This was so ridiculously great. From Ben Rama's...setback to Ali's choice, just a riveting and thoroughly entertaining issue. This is shaping up to be my favorite work of Grant's in recent memory, and that's up against some damn stiff competition. Just a relentlessly great read.

And Philip just gets better this issue. More color, more pop, more fun. Bring on #3.

14:45 / 09.03.05

Can't wait can't wait for this! Thanks for opening the thread, Gene.

23:46 / 09.03.05

Read it. Better than #1, but still just about "okay," which was less than I expected from a Morrison comic. Still, pretty fun and had a neat ending. No idea how the hell Gorgonzola Montanason will wrap this one up.

08:06 / 10.03.05

That was great. "My knee... grazed beyond redemption!"

17:07 / 10.03.05

Ditto on the knee thing.

This comic is sooo early nineties pop. It's like the good old days of 2000AD all over again - bloody joyous(core).

That guy with the little fellas in his hat, he makes me laugh a happy laugh. And the missle acheiving true purpose.

Brill, brill, brill.

I must compose myself and try and post something more grounded and thoughtful, but for now EXCITIRANT!!111!!

lonely as a cloud...

07:53 / 11.03.05

Joycore all around. I especially love Bond's art, wonderful stuff.

14:14 / 11.03.05

I was really, really surprised to find it left me feeling distinctly flat - with a slight edge of irritation. I didn't get that with the first issue, possibly because (as with the first issue of all George's stuff) it seemed fresh and new.

The second fell short, for me, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it seemed like a retread of that perennial George trope, the Invasion of Sadists. Concentration Camp London. He did this most memorably with the Lloigor in Zenith, and he's touched on it again since, most recently in New X-Men (albeit the US version)> Shock and awe, the herding/casual slaughtering of frightened naked people, even the bloke crucified/strung-up on the lamp-post seemed a tad overfamiliar as an image. Carnage-by-numbers.

The fact that it was all given a superifically Hindlamic twist didn't really help, IMHO, because the rather confused/confusing deities were what irritated me. We went over much of this in the thread on issue 1, but the fact that they were neither Hindu nor Islamic but somewhere in-between (with one oddly Buddhaesque figure) seemed, to me, less a deliberate evocation of pre-Indus Valley (or even pre-civilisation) Gods than a weirdly slapdash, faintly lazy attempt to evoke a non-specifically 'Asian' veneer for something much more generic - y'know, going for the funky blue skin and multiple limbs without really thinking about how it might or might not all fit together.

Which may be all well and groovy - but I can't help feeling that, if one is going to write about cultures/ethnicities other than one's own, it wouldn't hurt to have put in just a little more research.

Hmm. Even Phillip Bond's artwork, which I generally adore, isn't doing it for me quite so much, this issue.

miss wonderstarr

14:48 / 11.03.05

Ganesh suggests a fair point there: if it wasn't for the "exotic Asian" quality of the heroes and villains, this story would seem exceptionally bland and over-familiar.

Personally it does feel like a solid 2000AD strip to me, which isn't a bad thing but I find it immediately forgettable after reading.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

16:50 / 11.03.05

I don't think the leaf gag was culturally anything but best evs.

19:27 / 11.03.05

I'm digging the Bond art.

The leaf gag is the best! An infallible, perfect God winces with pain and rendered helpless as a whimpering baby when struck by a falling leaf after being rejected by the woman he loves? It's one of the funniest and one of my favorite Grant M. bits in a long time.

Atlantis again! Seaguy echoes remain...

19:33 / 11.03.05

>> that perennial George trope, the Invasion of Sadists

This is true...although this is hardly a theme monopolized by George. From Mordred to Darth Vader to Voldemort, this is kind of how a lot of Really Evil Bad Guys behave. It's not something I was bothered by in this fun little pop story, but I see your concern...those kinds of villains can get a bit old after being exposed to them for centuries of fiction.

22:30 / 11.03.05

Well, no, I'm not aware that, at any point, I claimed it was a theme unique to George. It is, however, a common trope within his work, and this "fun little pop story" felt like a retread of stuff he'd realised much more effectively elsewhere, with a sheen of East Is East-themed Dayglo-Indian-Goddess over the top.

As far as the leaf thing goes, I think it's an extension of Bollywood 'without your love, I am nothing' hyperbole. I think it works, as the consciously Bollywood stuff in issue 1 worked. It's the generic plot and mismatched Hindlamic deities that bother me, and calling it all "fun" doesn't really mitigate that stuff for me.

Do we reckon George might've been worried about Hindu or Muslim protests if he'd misrepresented established or identifiable gods or heroes?

23:33 / 11.03.05

I'm pretty sure the Ultrahadeen are about as mythically accurate (and probably inspired by) Kirby's Eternals. Check the gray-alien eyes on the female one.

06:37 / 12.03.05

IMHO, because the rather confused/confusing deities were what irritated me. We went over much of this in the thread on issue 1, but the fact that they were neither Hindu nor Islamic but somewhere in-between (with one oddly Buddhaesque figure) seemed, to me, less a deliberate evocation of pre-Indus Valley (or even pre-civilisation) Gods than a weirdly slapdash, faintly lazy attempt to evoke a non-specifically 'Asian' veneer for something much more generic - y'know, going for the funky blue skin and multiple limbs without really thinking about how it might or might not all fit together.

Couldn't just be that Grant is using the Ultrahadeen Super Strike Force to make a jab at people outside of those cultures who really generally don't know much about them?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:45 / 12.03.05

I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really hate that argument, as all right thinking people should do, as it effectively insulates the creator from any form of criticism...

"Aaah, but I deliberately fucked it up to make a point about people talking about stuff they don't understand!"

"No, not 'aaah', not 'aaah', no! And what's this 'questing beast in gay school' nonsense about anyway?"

I did quite like issue two in a 'fun throwaway something to read in five minutes on the tube' kind of way, I was feeling that Grant should have shortened the script a bit and it should been put out like 'Kill Your Boyfriend'.

So Sofia comes from the south of England, after, what, flying into the UK from visiting relatives in India? I'll have to read issue one again and see if this is explained. I did like the fact that in issue one Ali threatens to kill himself if his bride-to-be is ugly and then kills himself because he thinks he won't get her.

09:29 / 12.03.05

I find this series a little bit autopilot-y. It reminds me of that weird brief period when Grant and Mark Millar were pretty much writing the whole of 2000AD and everything became this homogenous mush.

Compare this with his amazing recent stuff like Seaguy and it doesn't stand up IMO

10:04 / 12.03.05

Couldn't just be that Grant is using the Ultrahadeen Super Strike Force to make a jab at people outside of those cultures who really generally don't know much about them?

Yes, I'm sure that's it. It's utterly inconceivable that he could be one of those people.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:39 / 12.03.05

Personally, I get the feeling he decided to write a fun sci-fi adventure story, and get his ideas for creatures, heroes etc from somewhere different this time. No harm in that- it's how most comics writers make their living, after all.

I partially agree with kovacs- it does feel like a solid 2000AD story (like the ones of my youth... sigh...), but one that's been allowed to breathe- it doesn't have to be split into five-page episodes.

The main message I'm getting from it is "I hope you enjoy this comic".

And yes, it is kind of a shame about the stereotyping and stuff- but it's pretty much how fun comics usually tend to work. He's not trying to teach us about Islam, Hinduism or the Pakistani experience (which is just as well, really- that would be horribly patronising in the extreme to an awful lot of people). He's just looked at them and thought "whoah, there's some stuff in there that would be great in a comic". It's not the Invisibles. It's not supposed to be.

Oh, and by the way- I'm loving it so far. It hasn't had the emotional effect of either Seaguy or We3, but I'm guessing it's not supposed to- but it HAS provided me with rather a lot of enjoyment.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:29 / 12.03.05

I'm finding I prefer this to Seaguy.

STOATIE GUD DOG IS It's not the Invisibles. It's not supposed to be.

But by that argument Grant could release a 30 page comic with photocopies of his arse and you'd have to let it pass as long as it didn't have 'The invisibles' on the cover.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:56 / 12.03.05

Well yes, but I'd probably also say it was shit.

02:01 / 13.03.05

Well yes, but I'd probably also say it was shit.

Then we could say "you're just not getting it, dude, it's meant to be fun - and he's taking a brilliantly subversive pop at the concept of shit comics". Etc.

*sigh*

I don't think I mean this to sound qui-i-ite as cranky as it does. As someone pointed out, Vimanarama would make a perfectly adequate 2000AD Future Shock - with very pretty artwork. I suppose I'm just finding it slightly underwhelming in terms of depth or originality (even for a "fun" or "pop" comic), and I think it's the lack of substance that's pushing the niggly little details to the fore.

This is probably barking up the wrong tree, but I wondered whether the muddled Hindlamic deities might reflect George hedging his bets and playing it safe, given some of the recent sub-fatwah spats about 'offensive' representations of religious figures...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

03:45 / 13.03.05

All I was saying, really, is that he's just nicking his ideas from a different place than usual- it's not about Hindlamism (at least I hope not, for reasons outlined above). It reminds me of the time I was collared by a Hare Krishna guy who, seeing my stormtrooper T-shirt, dropped any attempt to try an convert me and tried to sell me the books on the basis of them having some really cool battles in the sky in. Which was a really fun conversation. Not particularly educational, but enjoyable.

I mean, it doesn't excuse some of the laziness; I just think there's maybe a tendency to overanalyse stuff just because it was written by Greg Machismo. (I think I'm still reeling, all these months later, from the "GUD/GOOD/GOD" debacle in the WE3 thread, so apologies if I'm overcompensating.)

10:17 / 13.03.05

I just think there's maybe a tendency to overanalyse stuff just because it was written by Greg Machismo. (I think I'm still reeling, all these months later, from the "GUD/GOOD/GOD" debacle in the WE3 thread, so apologies if I'm overcompensating.)

Well yes, that was wearying. At that time, though, people were (arguably) claiming to find verbal/philosophical subtleties where none existed. By contrast, with Vimanarama, we're acknowledging that those subtleties don't exist - and, in my case, wishing they did.

I have nothing against a "fun" battle story but, as you point out, my expectations are probably raised when Grey Mackerel's the writer. I suppose I expect him to go further, in terms of research, than the standard Marvel/DC hack, and, when depicting cultures/ethnicities other than his own, avoid superficiality and conflation.

Which is, perhaps, my own fault for holding certain expectations.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:35 / 13.03.05

Having read this a couple of times, I think it's the art that is keeping me reading more than the story. Phil Bond's portrayals are, as usual, excellent. The story is fun, and "my knee... grazed beyond redemption!" is indeed a great line. It's a fun, undemanding story the dayglo Hindlamic aspects of which are both a bit irritating but also provide the basis for some really nice art - possibly Jorge Merrimac deserves some credit for conceptualising the art style used here, but I don't know.

I _did_ like the apocalyptic bits, just because they were taking all the tropes but doing them with Bond's tiny cartoon people. I also liked the idea that Ul-Shattan's crew are fossil fuels - and therefore that the conflict is between industrialisation and mysticism, in effect - the Ultrahadeen are using weapons and setting up systems powered by belief - but again that may just be because it lets Bond draw some groovy glowing vimanas.

10:42 / 13.03.05

I also liked the idea that Ul-Shattan's crew are fossil fuels - and therefore that the conflict is between industrialisation and mysticism

Hmm, I guess that's a relatively new Morrisonian element. That - and the fact that the really nasty weaponry is stored in Atlantis-now-America - may yet open one strand of the story to wider interpretation as a sort of sideways comment on Kyoto, etc.

Or perhaps not. I do agree that it's the artwork that's the primary draw here.

13:52 / 13.03.05

I think that's been a large intent with all three minis; giving the artists the floor.

15:23 / 13.03.05

Surely, it does seem like the book has a bit of an "industry vs. mysticism" theme, or whatnot, but what I also see is the ramifications of ancient religious figures showing up in modern day, where no one cares about them anymore. It's shown most clearly in the scene where these new gods are "restoring the fallen world to glory," but it's really just turning into a frightening science-magic place where the regular humans feel quite uneasy. Perhaps it's about modern society realizing it doesn't need the ancient gods helping it, anymore. But I'm not sure if the book should really be spinning out some kind of super-atheism like that, or whatever it is.

As for Ali killing himself, it's not really because he thinks Sofia's rejected him, but because he knows it's the only way to save the world, somehow, by crossing over into the Afterlife and round up a posse, or somesuch. (Remember: Omar said "The voices in my head told me you have to die." Ali's gotta die to save the world.) Sofia doesn't realize this, however, and so she'll drink the immortality potion to try to save Ali. Then it'll wrap up in some crazy Morrisonian finish. Hopefully the story isn't *this* predictible... maybe Greco Macaroni will fool us all.

And the "grazed beyond redemption" line is great, but my favorite bit is probably "The Space gun needs a second prayer missile, but I have not forgotten you, my love."

01:02 / 14.03.05

I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really hate that argument, as all right thinking people should do, as it effectively insulates the creator from any form of criticism...

Oh christ. Alright, call your ego back, you didn't really need to unleash it full force here. "As all right thinking people should..." OY. In other words, people that disagree with you, right? And how, exactly, does my saying that Grant may be using the Ultrahadeen as a form of satire insulate him from criticism? I'm talking about A plot device, not his work as a whole.

I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really hate when people generalise a discussion about a single point because they don't happen to agree with it and instead of actually discussing the point, instead make a poor attempt at debasing the other person.

Yes, I'm sure that's it. It's utterly inconceivable that he could be one of those people.

Ah yes, the "I defended a portion of Morrison's work, so I must obviously worship at his altar" argument. Very clever, because it hasn't already been used to death on this forum.

I made the point I did because Morrison has displayed a partial grasp of religious matters in the past, so I would assume that the over-the-top, colorful, super hero-ish nature of the Ultrahadeen is intentional, as is any theological mish-mashing. Not to mention that it takes all of about 5 minutes of internet searching to get it right.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

01:25 / 14.03.05

Fun. Light. A bit too compressed. Some nice touches. Not as good as 7 Soliders: Shining Knight.

yawn - thing's buddy

07:35 / 14.03.05

just okay.

11:16 / 14.03.05

Ah yes, the "I defended a portion of Morrison's work, so I must obviously worship at his altar" argument. Very clever, because it hasn't already been used to death on this forum.

It hasn't been done to death nearly as much as the often kneejerk "stuff that appears a bit shit = George brilliantly subverting/satirising the concept of shitness" argument. That one somehow never seems to get old.

I made the point I did because Morrison has displayed a partial grasp of religious matters in the past, so I would assume that the over-the-top, colorful, super hero-ish nature of the Ultrahadeen is intentional, as is any theological mish-mashing. Not to mention that it takes all of about 5 minutes of internet searching to get it right.

Well, yes, you'd think...

I dunno, perhaps the third and final installment will address this; perhaps not. I'm not sure I'm as confident of George's grasp of matters religious: while I don't for a moment think he's ignorant of the differences between Faith A and Faith B, his approach is not infrequently a superficial, pick 'n' mix one, using disparate ingredients as he sees fit. Which is all very Chaos Magickian etc., etc., but can grate.

17:47 / 14.03.05

It's interesting because, yes, it can grate, but for some reason I've enjoyed Vinamarama despite its slap-dash attitude to race, culture and religion.

I wondered going in whether Morrison would use the asianess of the book as a hanger for a bunch of *fun* ideas and so far that's exactly what he's done. I also expected to find such behaviour annoying.

17:57 / 14.03.05

The humour helps to sign-post it as silly and absurd and goes some way to undermining any potential offense, IMO.

Of course, I am a white middle class male, so...

07:51 / 15.03.05

all the white folks in vimanarama are mps or crazy retro skinheads. that ain't mean nothing neither. i am enjoying the use of a very straightforward 'superhero narrative + twist' where twist = soap-bubble humour and almost deliberately divisive fast and loose with racial types. the superhero bit is working very well for me, never get sick of seeing london in flames, interesting to see the history (or 'rules') of this particular s-hero universe being establlished as the telling happens, no crossovers or other capes to worry about. plus it's the funnest yet look at what might happen when the heroes arrives to save our souls and the universe (the end of every gm-produced shero storyline): they've got weird romantic ideas, hand out exotic weaponry like sweets and, erm, build fuckin big tellys everywhere.

yawn - thing's buddy

08:18 / 15.03.05

that 3d drains cross-section splash page was good.

but why do today's colouring droids think that gradient fuzz equals top colouring?

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