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Weapons & Combat & Self Defense

  
  

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Papess
15:49 / 04.03.05
What are you saying Smoothly? I am not understanding. Maybe you don't understand what I mean. Passive Resistance is a term coined way back when (I think it was in the 1970's) to encourage woemn not to fight their attackers. If you don't fight, you will be weakened, and you could wind up dead.

What is your point? Are mixing signals here?
 
 
The Puck
15:54 / 04.03.05
How is it exactly that one makes a Chelsea brick? I'm not sure.

roll up a newspaper lengthwise tightly, fold in half. see how the fold makes two sharp points? hit em with that.

or rather dont, cos its a rubbish playground trick.
 
 
lekvar
19:57 / 04.03.05
A couple of interesting points made above that I'd like to expand upon...
Pen for stabbin'/Awareness
When tensions are escalating, stay aware of your environment and anything in it that could be a weapon. About ten years ago I was working the graveyard shift at a gas station. A drunk came in and started acting menacing, verbally threatening me. While he was in the kiosk I was very aware of the location of every pen and bottle of window cleaner within a 4-foot radius of me. There is usually a minute or two before things get ugly, use them well.
Escalation
In my experience, the more someone blusters the less likely they are to actually let the confrontation get physical. As such, you can apologize and deflate the situation, simply walk away (this can be dangerous!) or go for the throat. It's the quiet person who doesn't move much that you have to be extra careful about.
 
 
Samael
20:09 / 04.03.05
One thing that I feel should be brought up is the very real possiblity of your weapon, be it improvised such as a pen, bottle, brick, whatever, or not, such as a knife or bat, being turned against you. In my study of martial arts, the most emphasis as far as weaponry went was on not only disarming an attacker, but turning his weapon upon himself. Just keep in mind that a weapon can fall out of your hands, or be knocked out, or even snatched away.
 
 
lekvar
20:21 / 04.03.05
That's why you break it off in their neck.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:05 / 05.03.05
This is great. It's like the bathhouses never closed.
 
 
admiral sausage
15:01 / 05.03.05
If anyone is interested in improvised weapons (I know I am !) this is a very good article about the yawara bo (which can be substituted for lots of similar shaped objects) I can tell you from personal experience of the yawara bo that it is extremely effective, and very painful to train with, you end up with loads of small circular bruises in all your pressure points, especially ones on the arm (following the radial artery) and the leg (following the femoral artery)

http://www.4-site.co.uk/goshin/kubohtm.htm

Lots more interesting articles on a similar theme by Kevin O'Hagan

http://www.4-site.co.uk/goshin/articles.htm

There are some really good martial arts clubs out there that deal with a realistic approach to self defence, i.e. not teaching people to try to do a spinning back kick on a mugger. Lots of these clubs are also involved with the mixed martial arts scene (similar to ultimate fighting, in the usa) which is a sporting version of what is taught for self defence, no biting or eye gouges ( did get put in a face bar with the guys forearm across my eye, and my contact lens went to the back of my eye !)

The names to look out for , for some good instruction are

http://www.geoffthompson.com/guest%5Fwriters/

An article about self protection by the guy who started it off Geoff Thompson

http://sfuk.tripod.com/articles/gtperspective.html

If you liked the article i suggest reading Dead or Alive by Geoff Thompson
 
 
Triplets
15:35 / 05.03.05
I was taught how to kill a man with a stuffed daschund...


... and I've had to live with that knowledge.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
23:28 / 05.03.05
"If you have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

...

Okay Triplets you got me. how to kill someone with a stuffed daschund?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:16 / 06.03.05
I can kill a man with some lipstick.
 
 
uncle retrospective
11:18 / 06.03.05
I can kill a man with some lipstick.

Bloody Goths.
 
 
Triplets
15:38 / 06.03.05
No, Temple, I won't tell you. I was taught by an ancient society of ninja-taxidermists and they do not take kindly to loose lips! Should I print this black knowledge on your thoughts the last sight you would ever see would be a sausage dog hurtling at you forever, frozen in time.

No, it's too big a burden to bare. After the Canine Preservation Wars of 1938 I vowed never to raise another dog in anger again. These hands have shed their last scrap of fur! You cannot know, I will not allow you to know! Knowing that every time you had an elongated dog and some liquid nitrogen you hold life in the balance! Run now! Forget you ever heard of the Stuffed Daschund Destroying Technique!
 
 
Grey Cell
19:15 / 06.03.05
"Daft as it sounds, do your best to look like a hard bastard in the first place before it even gets to that stage. I don't mean shave your head and adopt a Doberman or anything, just fake it."

It certainly helps. It recently occurred to me that I have never had to resort to physical violence ever since I started shaving my head. Being tall and looking like a tough weirdo (at least, so say my friends) may help, but still - that never saved me from troublemakers during my punk days. It must be the haircut.

I don't necessarily agree with the "martial arts aren't really useful" talk. I have a black belt in aikido. I realize all too well that it still only covers about one and a half inch of my ass and I won't make the mistake of thinking I can cover the rest by playing The One.
But the spatial awareness, the timing, the insight into the dynamics of conflict that you can develop most certainly do give you an advantage in avoiding or dealing with trouble (with or without physical violence). Being able and willing to forego ethics for a sec and fight like a bastard when necessary will also help (this is where many people fall short - but as someone already mentioned, there is a lot to be said for going totally postal on an assailant, under certain circumstances). And not being afraid to take a few hits because you already know how much you can handle is also a good thing - it may be a cliché, but predators do smell fear.

And sure, all the fancy exercises you do in the dojo may only get you stomped a little more thoroughly into the ground if you try them in a real fight. But I find that a lot of people only work on getting the "technique" to "work", yet never try to find and explore the basic principles that make it work... and thus never evolve beyond the point where they can creatively deal with anything outside the rigidly defined forms they're so used to.

I now swear by "walk softly and carry a big smile - and, on occasion, a slightly murderous glint in the eye And if that doesn't work, well... I'm fairly confident that if push ever comes to shove, I will at the very least take some of the baddies with me when I go down. That'll have to do, and to hell with all these what if?'s.

For further reference, www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ and www.radio4all.org/aia/sec_defense.html have some good thoughts on this subject.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:59 / 06.03.05
Look. Let's face it. Most of the people on Barbelith are wanky under-exercised intellectuals who will lose in any fight against anyone moderately interested in beating them up. Even the few who are hardbodied kung fu bastards will lose if they're facing, say, three or four people who are moderately interested in beating them up.

"Self Defence" for the vast majority of Barbeloids means "how to talk to someone so they don't try to beat you up". If you actually get into a fight you're almost certainly going to take a kicking. In which case, if you can't run away, curl up, try to avoid getting kicked in the back, be prepared to look like shit for a while, but it hopefully won't kill you, it'll just hurt like fuck. You can always think that whoever attacked you will probably get beaten up by other people far more often than you ever have, because that's one of the things about being a randomly violent git - you get into a lot of fights and you get hurt a lot.

If there's one thing about "how to talk to someone so they don't try to beat you up" I've learnt it's "always give someone a way out". If they challenge you, let them retreat from the situation with their ego intact. They probably don't want to actually fight you, they just want to put on a dominance display, so let them get away with it and you'll be okay; you can always make wanker signs at a safe distance. If they can back down from violence without looking bad to themselves and others, they will.

Otherwise, well, run away or curl up with your back to a wall if you're on the ground. It works for hedgehogs. We still have hedgehogs. Might help if you sew a load of spikes onto your jacket.
 
 
Grey Cell
20:48 / 06.03.05
"I've learnt it's "always give someone a way out". If they challenge you, let them retreat from the situation with their ego intact."

True. In that regard, there's a book called "Aikido in everyday life" that deals with just this. It's pretty interesting, even for people who don't practice martial arts. Someone borrowed it off me so I don't have the exact references handy, but if you google for the title you'll definitely find it. (amazon link: here)

It's also partially what I meant when I was talking about applying basic principles learned from MA (or just plain common sense?) outside of that particular context.

"Might help if you sew a load of spikes onto your jacket."

It doesn't work for punks... But then, unlike hedgehogs, they do suck at not drawing attention to themselves.
 
 
Papess
21:08 / 06.03.05
Thank you Ghostwheel. I have to get that book!
 
 
Panic
22:12 / 06.03.05
Most of the people on Barbelith are wanky under-exercised intellectuals...


I take offense, sir! I am not an intellectual!
 
 
Triplets
23:10 / 06.03.05
Most of the people on Barbelith are wanky under-exercised intellectuals...

Outsiiiide, youuu caahhhnt!
 
 
Smoothly
09:02 / 07.03.05
What are you saying Smoothly? I am not understanding. Maybe you don't understand what I mean. Passive Resistance is a term coined way back when (I think it was in the 1970's) to encourage woemn not to fight their attackers. If you don't fight, you will be weakened, and you could wind up dead.

Sorry, Strix - I shouldn't post just before leaving work on a Friday night.
It looks like I did understand what you meant, and I'm afraid it just winds me up a bit. It's all very well to say what *you* would do if attacked, but other women might reasonably react differently, no? It all rather depends on the circumstances, doesn't it? To claim that women who don't physically fight their attackers... -- what? will die? Are more likely to die? Whatever; that death is in some way 'for' them -- sounds like bollocks to me. Quite possibly there are people on Barbelith, or reading Barbelith, who know this to be bollocks from personal experience. So it's a nice double whammy to cover that off with the sensitive assertion that even if they survived, they're still weak.

See what I mean? Am I over-reacting?
 
 
illmatic
11:32 / 07.03.05
Bravo Fridge. I'll stand behind you. Got to admit I do find some of the advice/commnets made here a bit wanky.
 
 
Spaniel
11:59 / 07.03.05
What? Shut up! These guys are combat pros.
It's Barbelith's answer to Fight Club.
 
 
Papess
16:11 / 07.03.05
It's all very well to say what *you* would do if attacked, but other women might reasonably react differently, no? It all rather depends on the circumstances, doesn't it? To claim that women who don't physically fight their attackers... -- what? will die? Are more likely to die?

I never said specifically physically fight. But, if one is being physically beaten it is best to physcially fight. Absolutely. Should a woman rely on the mercy of her attacker? No. That is bollocks. That is what women were taught ages ago and it only serves to get them killed and injured (weakened, damaged, deformed, in comas...). So a woman can choose not to fight "physically", especially in the case of firearms, but don't ever stop fighting for your life. That is my point, because yes, if you don't fight you are definately more likely to die.

It just so happens that very recently I had to fight for my own life. Had I just talked to him and didn't actually use physical force or strategy, I would be dead. I am sure that would have made some people very happy, but I am still alive because I refused to let him overpower me completely. I was a hassle for him (not passive) and I hurt him back as much as possible. Had I let him take me to the second location because I didn't want to make him angrier by fighting him, I wouldn't be writing this post to you today. His aim was to torture and kill me.

I assure you that if a woman, or a man, chooses to just go along with an attacker and not fight verbally, strategically and physically for their own life, they will definately be injured, and quite possibly dead. Fight for your life actively.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
19:56 / 07.03.05
OK, I'm male, and let's face it, we all have delusions. 16 guys could take me on and I'd just leap in the air, time would slow, and I'd flatten the lot with a single whirlwind kick.

More realistically I like to think that I would remember all that stuff about going for the soft spots: throat, eyes, kidneys. I've also done a few years of judo and, while the throws wouldn't be much help in a brawl, there is a lot of ground work that could come in handy.

All of that said, I have only been in one situation where I have ever been pushed. When I was 19 a guy dragged (and I mean dragged. He was 6 foot 6 and built, I'm 5 foot 10 and built like Twiggy) me down an alley and held a knife to my neck. My reponse was to start yelling obscenities. I do remember the line "get the fuck off me you fucking piece of shit" coming out of my mouth. He punched me in the back of the head a few times and I shut up and gave him my wallet.

As it happened, the police had been watching the whole thing on CCTV and 4 officers actually ran in and broke it up. He was sentence to 33 months (he served half). Just goes to show that you will often not react the way that you think you will.

I still object to CCTV.
 
 
netbanshee
23:59 / 07.03.05
It's really is hard to make assertions about what may potentially happen in any given situation involving physical violence. It's already pretty evident when the martial artists chime in to agree with the situation. The end result usually ends up with someone being hurt.

Speaking as someone who trained actively in a hard-style martial art for a decade, I'm personally pretty anxious about the idea of being in a situation unless the motivation is there (family, lover, friends in danger) to become the aggressor and end the conflict as quickly as possible. I feel that when an event reaches that tipping point, it becomes much more manageable. The perspective that the overall conversation is coming from though, is being pressured outside of one's will... therefore working from a disadvantage and generally nasty place to find yourself.

I do recommend though that everyone at least take a passive interest in martial arts since its benefits surround your entire being your whole life. I've had the luck (and guidance) to remove myself practically unscathed from every encounter I've ever had due to my training. And the training I have continues on way beyond the initial lessons I was given. You might even end up tapping into different aspects of the energy you use and divert it into healing methods and ways of being that are life-changing and pretty darn interesting.

If anyone's interested in actively pursuing an art that's meant for self defense, I recommend looking at many schools and see which place is run by someone who feels like a teacher. You'll probably see plenty of instructors along the way. They usually end up being pretty small (in my experience) and intimate group of individuals that back each other up. Think of it as a family setting, where the exploration of certain avenues are conducted with a great deal of respect and trust. Sit in on a few classes and watch people interact. If you're interested in combat arts, you'll know what balance to look for.
 
 
Smoothly
08:31 / 08.03.05
I never said specifically physically fight

Oh, right. How embarrassing. You see, when you made a distinction between 'passive resistance' and 'fighting', I just leapt to the conclusion that you did mean physically fight. Which, as I now see we agree, would be ridiculous and hugely irresponsible advice in situations where there were, say, weapons involved. But you meant 'fighting for life' in the coma patient sense. I seeeee. No, you're right. You probably are more likely to die - in pretty much any situation - if you aren't in any way trying to stay alive.
 
 
Papess
10:12 / 08.03.05
Smoothly, I should have known better than to post a generalized and unqualified statement on Barbelith!

I am glad we understand each other, any way.
 
 
Sauron
11:03 / 08.03.05
well weapon yeah?
 
 
Spaniel
12:49 / 08.03.05
Look who it is. Alright, Sauron.

Strix, the guy meant to "torture and kill" you. Fucking hell.
 
 
Papess
13:03 / 08.03.05
Posting on Barbelith has never been more joyful for me, Boboss.

Hell, still being able to scratch my own butt is enlightening.
 
 
Spaniel
13:06 / 08.03.05
So, if you don't mind me asking, what happened?
 
 
Papess
13:50 / 08.03.05
Briefly:

We were sitting and talking quite normally, civilly, when he stood up like he was about to stretch, extending his arms. He, without warning, or foreshadowing his actions, grabbed me by the hair with his left, and pounded (and I do mean pounded) on me with his right. It got worse from there.

Without making this a police statement, I will suffice to say that I was completely taken by surprise and that by him trying to choke me to unconsciousness (which I only avoided because I had read an informative article in Martial Arts Magazine), he was trying to black me out to take me to his dungeon. Which, he mentioned he had in his basement previously, and I knew I didn't want to pass out and get taken there. Then there was the other possibility by him choking me, that he actually wanted to kill me.

He didn't have to reveal his plans to me like a movie villian for me to understand his intent.

From Martial Art magazine, page 52 - August 2003
"Shatter Your Nightmares" by: Stephen Petermann with Loren Franck:

When someone chokes you, he can easily end your life. Therefore, don't merely hope he'll render you unconscious and then let you go. His stranglehold has the deadly force of a gun or knife. And even if you are choked hard and released seconds later, your neck can swell, perhaps making the attack fatal minutes afterward. So don't give a choker any sympathy.

Anymore questions I will answer by PM only.
 
 
Spaniel
14:06 / 08.03.05
I'll pry no further.

That is horrible and fucked and I'm sooo glad you managed to get out safely. I just hope you managed to hurt him badly enough to discourage him from trying it again.
 
 
Papess
14:10 / 08.03.05
Heh, me too.
 
 
_Boboss
14:26 / 08.03.05
um, and told the police and got him sent down.
 
 
Papess
18:08 / 08.03.05
It's a process, Gumbitch.
 
  

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