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Weapons & Combat & Self Defense

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All Acting Regiment

19:39 / 03.03.05

Okay- I don't like violence, and neither should you. But, supposing you got in a dangerous situation where violence is gonna have to happen, what do you use to defend yourself?

It's not a nice area of life to dwell on but I surely can't be alone in saying that I've been in more than one situation where the main thought going thru my mind was "I wish I knew karate".

The other thought being "Ow, ow, Rockport boot head hurt ow blood."

19:54 / 03.03.05

You fndementally have to rely on your quick wit or your ability to assess whats going on and how you want to get out of it. The Quicker the better. I like to punch but what do I know

21:26 / 03.03.05

profuse apologies.

21:28 / 03.03.05

running very fast, if a charming, calming smile doesn't work.

Sean the frumious Bandersnatch

21:42 / 03.03.05

Just the weapons I have at hand- Fists, teeth, a shinai, 3 staffs (one of which is metal), a black belt, 2 3-section staffs, a plastic toy sword, a whipchain, coins, my neighbor's car, the bible, and invisibility.

I was telling the truth up until the whipchain. I'm a violent person.

Jack The Bodiless

21:51 / 03.03.05

Steel toecaps (or hard-pointed shoes, boots or trainers) and the willingness to get them before they get you (while they're still posing, for preference). Shins and knees are weak spots while they're on their feet. Eyes, throat and groin if it gets to the ground.

More than one person - hurt the nearest one really badly and really quickly before the rest can get to you. Shock and awe, to borrow a phrase. Scare the living fuck out of them, and the next one won't want to go near you. Worst case scenario, and you're trying to prevent any of the other fuckers wanting to get anywhere near you. Get him or her down on the ground, drag them across a kerb and stamp on their legs. Worst-worst case scenario, anyone pulls a knife, remind them that they have to get near you to use it, tell them they'll lose an eye doing it...

22:10 / 03.03.05

Appologies first, then running away. If the first two fail, I have a couple of years of martial arts* training to fall back on. But really, I hate fighting and I only use martial arts as excercise these days.

*Aikedo, Tai Chi, and Jujitsu. I'm hoping to start Kung Fu sometime this Summer, and I'm always looking out for a Capoeira class to join.

22:34 / 03.03.05

I agree with Jack. If obvious things like pegging it fail, its all about not waiting to get hit, but just getting in there first. I'd been doing Kung Fu for three years the first time I got attacked, but because I was unwilling to just go for it I completely failed to protect a friend, and also got a pounding myself. The next time somebody went for me, I was prepared enough to defend myself and I got out of it without being hurt, and without having to seriously hurt the other person.

High initiative rolls are the trick.

23:19 / 03.03.05

I would run, but I can't run particularly fast, so my second recourse would doubtless be teeth, which isn't the most sanitary method of self defense, but my upper body strength is currently so feeble that throwing a punch isn't going to work. I'm short to the point that kicking isn't going to do me an impressive amount of good either.

Now if someone comes to my house, I have a fiberglass reinforced field hockey stick right by the door. If that doesn't work, I've got a metric ton of very sharp, very long knives.

Truthfully, in any confrontation with an armed, or likely even an unarmed attacker that wanted me dead, in any situation that I couldn't run to an area where there were other people, I'd probably die.

Brigade du jour

23:31 / 03.03.05

Daft as it sounds, do your best to look like a hard bastard in the first place before it even gets to that stage. I don't mean shave your head and adopt a Doberman or anything, just fake it.

Of course I'm on, ahem, the hefty side, which probably makes would-be assailants think twice, but really there's more to it than that. It's what I call the 'don't fuck with me' face. A bare minimum of acting ability is all that's required, even for the someone who might not be particularly physically imposing. It's really about shoulders back, head held high, and looking like you own the place. Touch wood I've lived in London nine years and no one's ever tried anything.

The funny thing is, I'm a total wimp. If it came to confrontation and running wasn't an option I'd probably either curl up and cry (not a total loss - it's harder for them to do you damage if you're in this position) or tap into some of that latent aggression I normally reserve for fast-swinging doors and disagreeable photocopiers and just kick them in the crotch. Kind of like what someone said earlier about going totally postal on the nearest antagonist to scare the rest.

I just glanced again at the thread summary and realised that I've never been 'pressed' so maybe you should bear that in mind when considering my advice!

Brigade du jour

23:36 / 03.03.05

Oh I forgot - never shout 'help, help!', shout 'fire, fire!' Sad but true.

Oh and Sally? May I suggest keeping your weapons a few feet behind the door (or preferably just in your hand behind your back when answering it)? It's just that otherwise the assailant can easily grab it themselves.

To quote Shirley Manson, I think I'm paranoid.

08:44 / 04.03.05

I can say with some confidence that I am the least hard person you know, and as such have always enjoyed the company of people who'd relish a scrap should the call arise. In my experience, these people are seldom big. As a rule of thumb, I find it's sickly, wiry-looking men called Lee who are most up for a ruck.
Anyway, one such acquaintance from my youth explained his secret. He observed that in face-off situations, the received protocol was to preface any real violence with a period of swearing, pushing and staring. Like Jack and Kapok, Colin (for that was his name, surprisingly) put a great deal of stock in short-circuiting that. 'If it looks like some kind of fight is on the cards,' he advised, 'escalate the thing reeally fucking quick'. *Escalate* the thing. Seemed so counter-instinctive to me at the time, but almost Obi-Wan like in its profoundness somehow.
I've never found myself in such a situation, but if I did I'm sure those words would ring in my ears, as I made good my escape.

I also quite like Stephen Fry's approach. He favours a simple warning: 'Hit me if you must, but it *will* give me an erection'.

09:28 / 04.03.05

Smoothly - I just laughed out loud in my office with genuine joy at your post.

I knew this guy who had similar ideas when it came to scrapping. He was called Lee! His trick was to say "bang, bang!" with each successive punch, thus making the opponent think he was a truly sick puppy who they really didn't want to fuck with.

Much like Mr Blessed's Brigade, things like that rarely happen to me because of my size but when they do I'm usually too drunk and *surprised* to deal with it effectively and try to get away as quickly as possible.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:49 / 04.03.05

Moral pressure.

09:53 / 04.03.05

I spent far, far too much time last year reading the message board on geoffthompson.com, GT being a former bouncer who's written a number of exccellent books on self-defence (the most useful being "Dead or Alive" - this book is also excellent). What I particulary like about the style of self defence taught/talked about over there is it emphasises working on your skills of awareness and avoidance and gives you all kinds of strategies for dealing with things before it gets physical. Well worth having a look at if you're interested or worried about that sort of thing. I think this stuff is really useful to know, for anyone. It's commonly refered to as self protection, rather than self-defence, because if you're in a position where you need to defend yourself, you've already lost the battle.

The other main thing I got from it was how erratic, uneven and dangerous fights are, and how little skills devolped a dojo or gym will translate to the "real world", unless your training "realistically" - and I don't train realistically and am very happy with that. With that in mind, I would do anything, up to and including complete personal abasement and humilation, rather than have a scrap. I'm quite happy with the way I'm developing as a martial artist, but I'm aware of the huge gulf in the (okish, but not that good) ability I have and scrapping for real. And I want to keep that gulf in place, thanks very much.

I did actually attend a "reality based" seminar and while an absolutely brillant day and loads of fun, it did make me ask, with all the other time commitments I've got is there really a place in my life, is there sufficient motivation/interest in developing those skills? The answer came back "no" pretty much.

09:55 / 04.03.05

I used really cheesy lines to get out of fights which usually worked, go all Bruce Willis and say with real feeling "Get the hell away from me, there's no way I'm going back to prison for the likes of you" - many a fight was avoided with that one, seemed to work better if done in Glaswegian accent.

Tryphena Absent

10:02 / 04.03.05

Exactly what Sally Dammerung would do without the hockey stick and with some screaming.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:07 / 04.03.05

A tightly-rolled copy of a glossy magazine. Works like a wooden stick, additional benefit that you are unlikely to end up in the dock youself:

"We are suing the householder because he beat my client violently with a copy of Elle Deco, Your Honour, while poor Masher was going about his breaking and entering!"

"Approach the bench, please, Counsel. I want to explain something to you..."

And so on.

In the UK, courts are notoriously hard on Martial Artists who severely damage their attackers, even if their Bruce Lee-ness amounts to little more than a couple of years wearing pajamas. Since I have a long-term, supersoft martial arts heritage which would be about as effective as a lace parachute, I'm probably in trouble if I luck out and bash someone in anything approaching a fighty way and it does them actual harm.

I remember sitting around in the pub after a jitsu class, and we realised that one of the standard finishes to the defense against a knife attack would turn the opponent into head on a stick if you were using live weapons. We were learning it by rote, just muscle memory. Had to go back next week and start training a rather less stylish flourish at the end which didn't involve homicide.

Running was always my prefered option anyway. But in the final analysis, JtB's right - aggression and willingness to go too far will usually win out - most fights go to the floor, and they're scrappy affairs where a grappler will win, unless there's plenty of room. I'm crap at that sort of thing and I hate violence anyway, so... Flee! Flee!

11:19 / 04.03.05

A tightly-rolled copy of a glossy magazine.

How is it exactly that one makes a Chelsea brick? I'm not sure.

Anyway, last time, I threatened to write not only to the Guardian but also to my MP, and they backed down sharpish.

11:39 / 04.03.05

Just me that carries a gun, then?

12:02 / 04.03.05

In a similar fashion to others here, I suggest acting like a luntic so that the fight itself never becomes physical. Your attacker will back down out the fear that hitting you will either

A) send you into a murderous rage, like a human version of the Loony Tunes Tazmanian Devil, and is likely to result in their losing the use of at least one limb, or

B) end up with them being arrested for putting a day releaser into a coma.

12:31 / 04.03.05

I carry melee weapons.

12:37 / 04.03.05

Boboss you are Leap and I claim my five pounds.

12:39 / 04.03.05

I always carry two ballpoint pens.

One's fer writin'

T'other's fer stabbin'

Unless there's real trouble. Then both's fer stabbin'

12:39 / 04.03.05

Yes, I’m probably more in the stiff-letter-to-the-Times camp myself, despite years of trying to do martial arts. It seems a frightening business, and I feel fairly out-my-depth talking about it. Lots of seemingly knowledgeable appear to say the same thing : martial arts are alright unless you come up against someone who is bigger and stronger than you. In that situation, you probably want to have spent a few years practising something that gives you lots of actual experience of full-contact fighting (with the risk of injury that is entailed), and trains you to be able to take a few hits without being completely finished off.

13:08 / 04.03.05

Boboss you are Leap and I claim my five pounds.

Not from me you don't. I use a bartering system.

13:28 / 04.03.05

It's commonly refered to as self protection, rather than self-defence, because if you're in a position where you need to defend yourself, you've already lost the battle.

Sensei told us on the first day, "If you want to win a fight at a biker bar, you want a different class. I hope that after you train here, you will not get into a fight at the biker bar. In fact, I hope that what you learn here might make you think twice about going to the biker bar in the first place, and perhaps even avoid that part of town entirely."

That said, my piddling grasp of Aikido would doubtless be little help IRL, and I would resort to things like stomping on insteps and clawing eyes. Damn sure screaming loudly the while, and trying to scrape off enough skin under my nails to provide DNA evidence should the worst happen. If I ended up in a ground fight I would squirm around until I could bite something soft, because I'm a lousy grappler and most guys are way heavier than me.

In theory, that is. In practice I would probably whimper, deliver an ineffectual slap, and faint. Never had the chance to find out.

rising and revolving

13:32 / 04.03.05

Give 'em the cold dead eyes and say "You know what. You're going to beat the living shit out of me. You might even break some bones, rib or two, fuck me up hardcore. This fight, you're going to win it, that's obvious to everyone here. But I promise you that I WILL BITE YOUR MOTHERFUCKING EAR OFF or die trying. Sound like a fair trade? You win the fight, lose an ear? Let's rock."

The trick is to look just crazy enough to be serious.

13:51 / 04.03.05

Self defence isn't what worries me; I can always run, or at last resort attempt to maim my assailant in whatever way possible before they take me out.

I worry more about how to deal with a situation where I'm around when someone else is attacked and as a consequence I might have to attack the attacker to give the victim the chance to escape. How do I decide wheter to intervene? What do I do if I decide to actually engage an already violent person?

The best thing I can think of is to try to throw shit or get whatever is at hand between the attacker or the victim, to give the victim enough time to escape, and at last resort personally engage the attacker and hope I can hold my own. I've had a number of years of martial arts training and wrestled throughout high school, but street fighting is so chaotic that it's still frightening to me.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:51 / 04.03.05

The trick is to look just crazy enough to be serious.

Unless they've seen Donnie Brasco. Then you're in trouble. Everyone know film buffs fight like wet newspaper.

13:53 / 04.03.05

Not from me you don't. I use a bartering system.

Well as we both people of good "character" if not from the same parish - I expect a few flagons of ale in the nearest tavern as recompense.

13:54 / 04.03.05

I actually think that might work.

14:09 / 04.03.05

My favorite "fight averted by being quietly badass" story came from a friend of mine in college. He was not conspicuously large or built, dressed conservatively, spoke softly, wore wire-rim glasses. But he had a look in his eye that said Stone Cold Muthafucker.

He was out driving, and a car full of guys started playing games with him (tailgating, honking, cutting him off, pulling alongside and shouting - you know the drill). He pulled over. They pulled in front of him and four guys got out, acting tough, looking for a fight. So, my friend rolled down his window, looked the front guy in the eye and said, very quietly, "how far do you want to take this?*"

They got back in their car and took off.

Love that story.

~L
*he also had a large knife open in his lap, but it wasn't visible from outside

15:17 / 04.03.05

From my personal experience... I use my limited knowledge of martial arts, my street sense and my infallible will to live and continue to parent my little boy.

I really should formally study martial arts but recently, it was what I learned from a magazine that saved my life. Years ago, someone choked me till I passed out (they were a twisted sort, but a lover of mine at the time). No one had ever tried that on me. I made it my business afterward to learn how to remove myself from a chokehold. I found an article in Martial Arts magazine on this very thing. I read it, I never forgot it and I am alive today because of it.

I follow a few simple rules:

1. Step out of the way of danger when possible, or just run clear away if you can.
2. Go for the eyes - generally, if they can't see you, they can't hurt you.
3. Every attacker is only 17 inches high.
4. Where the head goes, the body follows.
5. Use anything and everything.
6. Keep fighting till you are out of danger.
7. Follow through to a point behind your target on all strikes made to your attacker.
8. Use gravity.
9. Yell, scream, make noise. Try to yell something that can be understood as a cry for help.
10.Never let yourself be taken to a second location.

And finally, for all the women who remember when we were taught to not resist our attacker...

11.Passive resistance is for the weak and the dead.

Stay safe, all.

15:34 / 04.03.05

And finally, for all the women who remember when we were taught to not resist our attacker...

11. Passive resistance is for the weak and the dead.

Yes, except that's bollocks, isn't it. Unless by 'weak' you mean 'not necessarily in a position to overpower your attacker', and by 'dead' you mean 'quite possibly still alive'.

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