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Conjuring Entities

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00:02 / 02.03.05

I'm sure this has been discussed before in some form, but a google search didn't really turn up what I'm looking for. In his interview with Arthur Magazine, GM is talking about how he got into Magick and he says, "I spent 25 years doing magic because I didn't believe Aleister Crowley when he said a demon would appear if I performed certain operations. And so I did the operations to prove him wrong and a fucking demon appeared! I've had to deal with the fact that the demon had actually appeared and that Crowley was saying something that now made sense experientially."

So, has anyone here done something like this and gotten results? And also, what are these 'certain operations' because I'd like to try it out for myself. Any books or sites to reccomend? I've done some sigil magick that worked in the past, and I want to take things up a notch.

trouser the trouserian

04:29 / 02.03.05

try searching for "evocation". Last 'lith discussion on this subject was: Evocation for Today

07:43 / 02.03.05

Why do you want to do this?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:54 / 02.03.05

Um. Yes, why? If you want to prove or disprove Uncle Al and/or magick generally, why not pick something a little less fuckupable?

Not wishing to denigrate your abilities or anything but it's wise to learn to walk before you strap on your protonicly-enhanced exoskeleton and rocket boots and race Superman.

09:35 / 02.03.05

I find it strange, that, whenever somebody wants to try something like that, people come along quick and basically say: no, don´t do it.

Most magicians (that´s my experience) fool themselves. They believe, they do magic, but what have they ever done, that cannot be explained "scientifically"? For example, all those sigils. To get richer, or cure the flu, or "be more centered". All of that can be explained with self-fullfilling prophecy, luck or chance.

But a demon appearing before you. Now, that can´t be easily explained away. Certainly not, when it happens. That´s real magic. And it changes your life, your world will never be the same.

With the "dull, boring, safe" stuff, pentagram ritual, sigils, etc you can still be "normal", share the world with the rest of the status quo.

But I believe, most magicians are afraid to really plunge into magic, to leave the normal world behind. Because they subconsciously know, there is no turning back, and it is not safe at all.

Crowley said something to that effect: that, when you have decided to go that route, you can´t just wish yourself back to that armchair in front of the fireside, when you are swimming for your life in the ocean in the middle of a hurrican.

So, I don´t want to alienate anyone. I just wanted to share my perspective, that I believe, many of us are too afraid (= not ready yet), to take that irreversible step, where magic can just be put aside, when magic is disturbing and frightening instead of an interesting pastime.

And nobody should be afraid to get mad because of the magical life. Ordinary life will make you break down much faster.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:50 / 02.03.05

Werl, I guess you have a point there,
Mistoffelees, but I was more saying "why not evoke something a bit smaller and with less teeth than a demon first" than "don't evoke anything at all." I mean, there are other things you can conjure up that aren't demons.

10:02 / 02.03.05

I would err on the side of caution as well

we don't know the person's history , whether they have suffered any psychoses or whatever

as has been said, evoke something friendlier to befgin with abd learn at least the rudiments of banishing

but an excellent point was made, I am a bit of an armchair magician and it is my fear and general demeanour that has probably hindered my magicakal progress more than anything

so , yes conjure something but don't aim for a demon, at least not yet.

also learn a banishing ritual or make yourself practice your own until you are confident that it will protect you/ close any other ritual without any lingering after effects

Good advice on here folks as always

trouser the trouserian

10:22 / 02.03.05

On-line edition of The Lemegeton - gives basic approach for evoking the spirits of the Goetia.

10:54 / 02.03.05

and watch yourself following Crowleys rituals, some contain sucidal chemical combinations, that result in poisonous gas and explosions.

his little joke you see?

trouser the trouserian

10:57 / 02.03.05

and watch yourself following Crowleys rituals...

For example?

11:04 / 02.03.05

Mistoffelees, totally agree with you on all of that. I wasnt saying don't do it, just asking why. You wouldnt go knocking on the door of a Mafia Don without a very good reason to do so, and I don't think God/desses, Spirits or Demons should be approached any more lightly than that. If you're going to "step into the hurricane" then you should at least have some concept of why you are doing it, what you hope to achieve, where you want to try and take things. Conjuring something up just because you think it might be cool, or just to see if anything happens, feels a bit like the magical equivalent of ringing on someone's doorbell and then running away. Why are you doing it? What's it for?

12:37 / 02.03.05

I do feel that, in response to Gypsy's "What's it for?" question, that a fair reponse is "to see what happens". I think a bit of open-ended experimentation is completely valid, and a useful part of building and improving on your skills and talents as a magician. Having said that, I'd still do it respectfully, and take into account traditons, culture, history etc. of the entities involved. Also - certainly with something like the goetia I'd take the warnings frequently given seriously.

12:55 / 02.03.05

Gypsy Lantern:

What you´re saying, is right, too, of course. Magic can be dangerous, and precautions are necessary. Still, I believe that many overestimate those dangers.

If I were a demon, and somebody called me just for the hell of it, I would not be pleased about that! Sure, you would need a good reason to do that, in the first place. My reason would be: changing the reality tunnel from "it´s not possible, we live in a world of science, soccer and charlatans" to "yes, but we live in a world of sorcery, too". And, yes, you probably should then do it with something less frightening.

I believe, deep inside, we don´t believe it could work, since that´s what we have been told from day 1. And sometimes that can be the source for warning people to not do it. That´s, at least, what I have experienced in myself and other (would-be) magicians. I have always been very surprised, when something did happen.

13:37 / 02.03.05

I would say invoke the demon. It's best to get these things out of the way, this experiment to prove its real. Others will try to warn you away with this, "oh no, don't do it it isn't safe" speech. But this isn't a safe thing, any of it. If you want safe, go to church. If you want to know it's real, go ahead and summon the demon. You'll have no doubt after that, and ou'll have some good experiance. Why a demon? Because when you do it there will be no doubt, none whatsoever, that it is real.

13:38 / 02.03.05

Scuse my vocabulary, evoke the demon, save the invocation for later.

14:00 / 02.03.05

"why not evoke something a bit smaller and with less teeth than a demon first"

Have any suggestions? And I will add that Gods can be just as dangerous as demons (if not more so). So what should a rookie mage evoke first?

trouser the trouserian

14:04 / 02.03.05

As regards the Lesser Key (aka Goetia) its generally agreed that SLM Mathers was the original compiler of the modern version of this work, which Crowley subsequently published under his own name after his break with the Golden Dawn. The text itself belongs to Renaissance-era magic, so the works of Cornelius Agrippa, as well as later authors such as Levi or Barrett may be useful reading. There has been a deal of debate over the meaning of the word Goetia and it is often seen translated as "howling" although it could equally be derived from the Greek word for sorcery - goety (perhaps we can evoke the presence of Haus to debate this?). So there is a link to Greek magical practice here, as well as a more obvious link to the Arabian magical tradition (reading the Thousand and One Nights might provide good atmosphere). The attitude of commanding spirits (daemons) by the use of divine names, seals, etc., can be seen in both Theurgy and the Chaldean oracles. Here's Plato on daimons:

They are the envoys and interpreters that ply between heaven and earth, flying upward with our worship and our prayers, and descending with the heavenly answers and commandments, and since they are between the two estates they weld both sides together and merge them into one great whole. They form the medium of the prophetic arts, of the priestly rites of sacrifice, initiation, and incantation, of divination and of sorcery, for the divine will not mingle directly with the human, and it is only through the mediation of the spirit world that man can have any intercourse, whether waking or sleeping, with the gods. And the man who is versed in such matters is said to have spiritual powers, as opposed to the mechanical powers of the man who is expert in the more mundane arts. There are many daimons, and many kinds of daimons, too, and Love is one of them.

The association of "Goetia" with "black magic" was probably popularised (like so many other occult tropes) by HP Blavatsky & co.

16:26 / 02.03.05

Might as well point out that you could work up your courage, conduct a kick-ass evocation ritual and have absolutely nothing happen. Still, best to approach with caution.

16:40 / 02.03.05

So is anyone willing to put their (presumably shaky) hand up and claim to have summoned a demon which appeared in front of them (and not in a dream or a trance)? which one did you choose? and what did you learn from your experience?

trouser the trouserian

18:30 / 02.03.05

Yep
Account of first series of workings written up A series of six workings from The Goetia of Solomon The King

20:12 / 02.03.05

Um. Yes, why? If you want to prove or disprove Uncle Al and/or magick generally, why not pick something a little less fuckupable?

I guess the reason I want to is because I've done sigil stuff and consciousness exercises, and those strongly affected my view of what is possible in the world, and that magic seems real to me. However, summoning entities still seems implausible to me, though I won't dismiss it. It's just that if it is something that's doable I'd like to try it out, because the implications of what successfully summoning one of these things would mean the nature of reality are huge.

I don't really want to summon a demon, if there's something easier and less dangerous, that's what I would want to go with. I'm going to look over the links here, and figure out something good to summon, and give it a go.

Unconditional Love

20:28 / 02.03.05

if youd like a different flavour of demon try here

20:41 / 02.03.05

If you want a fairly grounded approach based on prescriptions from a couple of highly-respected A.'.A.'. folks, do the following:

LRP morning and night, working through invoking and banishing the elements. After you're fairly comfortable with that operation, move onto LRH morning and evening, working through the planetary bodies. Concurrent with the aforementioned, do Liber Resh daily (I personally have a very tough time getting up at dawn). Keep a magickal diary of all rites and results.

Then start working with the Goetic entities. Do not get caught up in wondering if you're seeing actual entitites manifest or if you're just projecting them. There is no practical difference. Don't invoke entities just to prove to yourself and others that they exist.

trouser the trouserian

20:46 / 02.03.05

Nice link there mark. Gonna order that 'un first chance I get.

BTW, everyone who's going on about demons being "dangerous" what do you mean? Dangerous in relation to what?

20:59 / 02.03.05

I believe, deep inside, we don´t believe it could work, since that´s what we have been told from day 1. And sometimes that can be the source for warning people to not do it.

Just out of interest : is there anyone here who actually believes that if you used the proper method to conjure a Demon nothing would happen?

I personally don't need to do it because I already know damnwell that it would work. Ok out of pure desire to see the Morrigu in the early hours of one morning I ended up with a half manifested, swirling void of chaos in my kitchen, so I suppose don't really need convincing because of that, and I guess in some respects I'm lucky because that happened. I'd be surprised though if a decent few didn't actually believe that a Demon would appear if you used the right method.

Even before that happened I'd always believed that if you used the proper ritual you would get the results, but personally I've never really had a good enough reason to evoke a Demon. I've spent that much time fighting off astral and less than astral stuff that if I evoked one I'd probably be inclined to start a fight with it out of pure habit, so it's probably good that I haven't done it. But anyway, I always assumed that 90%+ people posting here already took it as a given that if you tried evoking Demonic entities it would work. Maybe I've been way off with that.

(anyone wanna PM me or post here with a good reason for actually evoking a Demon other than 'to prove that it works' and with tips on how to refrain from punching it though and I'm all ears. I find the concept of 'getting them to do your bidding' something that would most of the time lead to Demons having a right good fucking laugh at your expense. I guess you'd have to be pretty damnwell adept to get them not to just throw shit back in your face and forget the bidding bit entirely. (On God/dess's orders and all that.))

22:10 / 02.03.05

OK, I'll provide a personal experience.

In my first year of college, after a debate with a few friends about magic and religion (I was a raging atheist at the time), I staggered back to my dorm room, grabbed my copy of the Goetia and did a fairly standard conjuration of whoever was first on the list (Bael?).

First and Second Conjuration. (Didn't get as far as the Constraint, etc.) No circle, no triangle, and I was pretty damned drunk.

Nothing happened.

No mystical entity. No horrible bad luck or weird mystical occurrences. Nothing. Period.

Yes, I didn't really do it properly. And yes, I wasn't in the proper state of mind and didn't have any magical or mystical training at the time. But NOTHING HAPPENED.

Mind you, I suspect if I did it now (properly prepared and with the right state of mind) I might get a much more interesting result. And anyone thinking of trying it probably should give the matter a bit of thought beforehand, especially if you tend to be suggestible.

But you shouldn't assume -- BOOGA BOOGA! -- that doing an evocation necessarily means that evil beasties will immediately come and drag you to the bowels of hell, or give you the riches of the earth, or that your Holy Guardian Angel will take up residence on your shoulder.

23:40 / 02.03.05

Oh and forget the Demon punching bit, I was just being silly and egotistical. I'm sure I could think of a few good things to talk about if I ended up with a full-on manifestation.

00:00 / 03.03.05

And I think this may be the core. Experienced or unexperienced, sober or ripped, if the notion suddenly grabs you to dig out the dusty grimoire and conjure up lucifer hisself, go with it. Riding the current will probably take you farther sooner than a prolonged course of cautious study.

But yeah, just be ready to deal with the consequences. I tend to thinks it's more important to know yourself very well, to be able to be totally honest about your motivations and actions in all aspects of life, than it is to follow the step-by-step details of this or that order or guru.

Know thyself. Enflame thyself.

Boy in a Suitcase

00:21 / 03.03.05

In response to trousersnake:

Dangerous to respiratory health. This seems to be a running theme and I've seen this in multiple people, including myself, while doing group work with the Goetia. That's respiratory problems requiring professional medical attention. But then I've been known to get into the triangle just for the fuck of it. Don't recommend that one by the way.

But "hell," I say go for it. Just remember that hurricane metaphor. And don't sign anything you don't read first.

01:20 / 03.03.05

To follow up on BiaS's comment -- many years later, as part of a detailed heavy-duty ritual (not an evocation) combined with psychedelics, I seem to have given myself a whopping asthma attack that landed me in the Emergency Room. It was the first sign of allergies that persist to the present day.

The respiratory thing really does seem to be the occupational disease of magicians.

Boy in a Suitcase

03:56 / 03.03.05

"Through the hourglass I saw you, in time you slipped away
When the mirror crashed I called you, and turned to hear you say
If only for today I am unafraid

Take my breath away
Take my breath away."

—Berlin

(!!!)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

05:55 / 03.03.05

what should a rookie mage evoke first?

Of the top've me head...ancestor spirits? They're generally well-disposed towards one in my experience (tho' YMMV of course). There was this one time when I was 15, I did an air working (yellow candles blah blah fluffcakes) to help me with my GCSE chemistry exam which I was about to flunk horribly, and ended up with an air elemental in my bedroom. I passed the exam but air elementals, man, they break stuff.

06:30 / 03.03.05

It's probably something you have to experience yourself to really get, but when you say an air elemential was in the room, what do you mean? Is it a visible/physical entity, or is it more of a feeling, and you just know something's there.

trouser the trouserian

07:32 / 03.03.05

Yeah, elementals can be tricky. Dion Fortune mentions Air Elementals' propensity for breaking things in (I think) Psychic Self-Defence. One of the first 'significant' magical experiences I had with an elemental was in the early '80's, when I was doing some G.D. practice exploring the Earth element via the appropriate Tattva card (using the GD 5-tattva schema). I woke up one night unable to move - it felt like someone had dumped a suitcase full of rocks on top of me - and I had the distinct impression of a 'red mist' over me. I lay there thinking "what the fuck?" - couldn't speak or move. Eventually I pulled myself together and mentally projected a banishing pentagram of Earth, at which point the sense that there was 'something present' faded and I was able to get up. Now this kind of experience can be 'explained' as sleep paralysis, but for me what's interesting here is that it occurred within the context of my Earth element work, and that I was able to shape the experience using the good old banishing pentagram. Moreover, the "shock" of this experience blew away many of the preconceptions I had about magic.

Re: Ancestor spirits. In Transcendental Magic Eliphas Levi gives a lengthy account of a ritual to evoke the shade of Appolonius of Tyana via a dark mirror.

07:54 / 03.03.05

I've actually never gotten a visible appearance yet, have to communicate with a pendulum. I suppose someday it may happen though, and no doubt, it will scare the willies out of me. I would have to agree with LVX23 though, if you really have a yen to call on the howling, go for it, man, go man go!

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