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Digressions

 
  

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8===>Q: alyn
11:29 / 24.01.05
The English language seems to be a rather complex machine designed to suck words in from other languages, masticate them, and extrude them in altered, frequently improved, form. As in any complex system, funny coincidences occur, such as the multiplex origins of the word "polecat." A polecat is a chicken-stealing weasel, not a cat. What does some serf know from correct taxonomy? Now, "cat" is English of ancient provenance, but "pole" is borrowed from the French "poul," chicken. Why French? I have no idea. At some point, for some reason, French and English seem to have been very nearly the same language. But polecats are named so because they steal chickens, and they do it at night, so they probably weren't seen much. The Franco-English serf would just find the paw-prints in the morning.

Now, "poul" also enters English as "pullet", a breed of chicken, and as "fowl". The polecat emits a smelly smell, and in the Americas skunks are sometimes called polecats, even though skunks don't steal chickens ("Skunk" is a word from the Massechusett Indians), because they smell "foul". So in English, "pole" suggests both "fowl" and "foul".

Do you suppose I have a point? Silly reader, I almost never have a point. The insistance on having a "point" is a paternalist residue, and meaning is broad, not pointed. The Man is very frightened by irrelavence. I would like to suggest that the term "Indian" as a name for Native Americans is not the racist misnomer many degenerate revisionist historians would have us believe. Cristoforo Colombo didn't know quite where he was, but he knew he wasn't in India. "Indian" is the Englishification of the Spanish "indigeno," or "indigenous". It's actually a more useful term than "Native American". "Native" means "inborn" and applies to anything born anywhere in the Americas, while "indigenous" means "originating where it is found." Slightly more accurate, and protects us from using "native" as a synonym for "savage," as can frequently be found in, for instance, Penguin translations of Plutarch, where the invading Germans on Italian soil are called "natives" when the whole point is that they are not in their place of origin. I think that the difficulty of locating Indian etymology is a huge problem. Once you hit an Indian origin, you just have to take the word as "originating where it is found."

A "poltroon" is an Italian couch potato; a "schweinerei" is piglike orgy of filth. A "schweinhund" is a pig-dog, though I don't think any such thing really exists, and a "scheisskopf" is a shithead. Everyone knows that "Schadenfreude" is the joy we take in the misfortune of others, but is there a word for its converse, that is, the discomfort we feel at our own good fortune? I don't know. Isn't it funny, if "a name is an omen," that "freude" means "joy?" I'm actually not such an etymologist, I just have this thing about funny words. There is a good possibility that I'm full of what the birds eat (which implies shit, though actually it is "seeds and bugs").

This is my 3000th post.
 
 
HCE
18:01 / 24.01.05
http://www1.minn.net/~jrgergen/images/pigdog.GIF
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:39 / 25.01.05
dwight, I sometimes feel like Josh Lyman to your C.J. Craig.

The thing about schweinerei, okay? Freud brings up "schweinereien" in his early lectures on parapraxes (more commonly known as the "Freudian slip"). It's German. I don't really know anything about German and am certainly not "geneigt" to talk about it. But I am from New York, which is equivalent to being 1/8th Jewish and gives me a smattering of Yiddish vocabulary, and it's my highly ideosynchratic feeling that there's something Yiddishy about "schweinerei." In Yiddish you also have "kain ayin hara," jinxing something good by talking about it, and "l'shon hara," when one Jew talks smack about another (a great schweinerei). Freud reports at least one shweinhund taking schadenfreude in l'shon hara by way of kain ayin hara.

I have wandered very far afield.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:58 / 25.01.05
Philip Roth is sometimes accused of l'shon hara, and seems to enjoy pointing out that his accusers are committing l'shon hara themselves.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
05:19 / 25.01.05
Qalyn, to an actual NY Jew, even one so detached from any group identity as such, schweinerei sounds like a slightly endearing epithet a concentration camp officer would call children destined for the ovens. Them schweinerei is gooood eatin'!

Obviously, our synaesthetic palettes are tuned to different frequencies. Where does one find the TINT knob on one's head?

/+,
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:09 / 25.01.05
Golly! Then Ethel, the old Jewish lady who lived downstairs when I was a kid, was actually threatening me with genecide when she said, "Get out of that tree, Qalyn! You're a schweinerei!" It means "disgrace."

Maybe I know more about Yiddish than you do, Vladimir. Have you thought of that, boychik?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:21 / 25.01.05
Oh, wait, Ethel was totally German. Sometimes it's hard to tell with those old ladies.
 
 
Jub
10:03 / 25.01.05
My favourite English etymology story involves meat - as all good things do.

After the Battle of Hastings in 1066, there were two main languages used in England. The first is what is now known as Old English, as practiced by the Anglo-Saxons / Vikings, and the second was the French as used by the Normans (who were actually desccended from the Vikings too - Norman being a version of Norsemen).

The invaders therefore had the "power" language and the invadees (?) had the "common" language. The Saxon servants would tend their French overlords flocks and serve up the food - thus creating two words for the meat, one for the alive animal, the other for the cooked dead version. I believe in most languages the word is the same, or more similar for both.

This situation between the Normans and the Saxons did not last that long (100-200 years) before the two languages merged into Middle English.

Animal (in German) - was - - Meat (in French)
Cow (Kuh) - - - - - - -was - - Beef (Boeuf)
Calf (Kalb) - - - - - - - was - - Veal (Veau)
Swine (Schweine) - -was - - Pork (Porc)
Sheep (Schaf) - - - - was - - Mutton (Mouton)
Hen (Huhn) - - - - - - was - - Poultry (Poulet)
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
13:17 / 25.01.05
Hurray for Jub! You have also explained why the polecat's name is half French, half English.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:42 / 25.01.05
It's also why English has, in so many cases, two or more words that mean the same thing, or why we can make distinctions not possible in other languages: French cannot easily distinguish between mind, soul, and spirit (as in "school spirit"), for instance.

And the overclass/underclass distinction may explain why we perceive the Anglo-Saxon alternative as more honest or true than the French-Latinate version—why we instinctively prefer a hearty welcome to a cordial reception, for instance.

Qalyn, you should really read The Mother Tongue: English and How It Got That Way, by Bill Bryson. It's a fucking hoot, foremost, and it'll point you in all kinds of interesting directions.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:50 / 25.01.05
There's a Yiddish word 'chozzerei' or 'chazzerei' (okay, you spell it) which means, I suppose, much the same as 'Schweinerei', and which might be a little less alarming to you, Vlad. If I recall, the '-erei' suffix in German, and hence in the Yiddish, means something which is basically a mess or a messing about.

That interjection is not really about English, of course, and so would make this post a digression from a digression, which I suspect counts as a tangent or even a misstep. My favourite digressor at the moment is Jerome K. Jerome, who is distinguished by having written a book which is effectively entirely composed of digressions and dilations hanging tenuously (if something can be said to hang in such a fashion, which I suspect is not the case, most especially in the case of a figurative object such as a digression or a quasi-physical action such as a dilation) from a main action so slight as to be notional or even ostensible.

I'm a little alarmed sometimes by the difficulty I find in prose. I was writing a letter the other day - an actual letter on paper, you understand - and I found myself constructing a description where one adverb was trying to qualify another: "utterly spuriously" or something. I didn't like the result at all, so I decided to talk my way around it. The letter form is a minefield anyway; writers from the Age of Mail seem to have no problems easing from digression to main topic and back, weaving and counterpointing and never losing their way. I fear it's just that they spent a great deal of time on what are, to me, fairly trivial correspondances; perhaps they knew that these dratted things might find their way into the next generation's concept of the time and the person. Perhaps they just wanted their writings to be perfect. In any case, the idea of penning a letter when Hazlitt did it so very well at nine years of age is a little daunting.

After which Schreiberei, I return you bashfully to the discussion in hand.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:07 / 25.01.05
Qalyn, you should really read The Mother Tongue: English and How It Got That Way, by Bill Bryson.

Yes you should. I thought you probably had what with all your word factness. However, you definitely shouldn't read it with someone else in the room, because you will constantly be saying, "Oh my Goodness, listen to this..." and they will hate you.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:14 / 25.01.05
Reread it, you mean. I should, it's been a long time, and I have it around here someplace.

My favorite untrue story about the French domination of English mindshare...

Wait, just a little aside. Who was it who said that making fun of the French is always funny? Why, it was Robert Graves! In an early essay on the future of humor. However, he didn't foresee the current American political climate. It's just not funny any more.

Bitte. The untrue story goes that once there was an English duke or something who received a visit from some French count's daughter. She was charming and refined, while his own sons were boorish and coarse, and he wrote to her father asking for advice. The count sent over the girl's tutor, armed with books on mathematics, religion, etiquette, and so on. The tutor translated everything into English for the duke's boys, including the volumes on grammar, and this is the reason that English academic grammar is so crazy--it's actually French grammar.

Anyway. Onward and upward. The other day I was reading a Vanity Fair article about George Lucas, in which mitichlorians were explained, and they are actually marginally cooler than I thought. Lucas bases them on--get this--mitochondria, the wee beasties what make their homes in living cells. I worked for a dotcom that bought everyone tickets for the first showing of The Phantom Menace, and I remember one of the partners turning to me a moment after Anakin's mother describes her confusion over Anakin's conception and saying, "Qalyn, be good." He must have heard my sharp intake of breath. See, Jedis don't use the Force, mitichlorians do. Jedis use mitichlorians. It sort of makes sense, and it is geek-pleasing that when, say, Anakin falls into a volcano and burns off a bunch of limbs, he looses a lot of his power because of all the dead mitichlorians.

The word some people would use for Anakin's conception is "parthenogenesis," born from a virgin. The word comes from botany, but I think it still suits. There are all those fellows in the Mahabarata, for instance, who are descended from young girls who ate Indra's sperm off a leaf. It doesn't mean "fatherless" exactly--an orphan is "fatherless," like Luke Skywalker. However, there is some doubt as to whether "partheno-" really means "virgin," or if it just means "girl." I mean, there are all these pools where maenads and goddesses restore their "virginity," which just seems odd. Restoring their youth makes more sense, somehow.
 
 
HCE
16:02 / 25.01.05
Confuse 'young girl' and 'virgin' and you get:
 
 
grant
16:08 / 25.01.05
In studies of the gospels, there's some doubt as to whether Mary's status as a "virgin" referred to her age (a young girl), her sexual status (none yet, thanks), or her job -- as an attendant at the temple, where they had flocks of virgins.

I can't remember the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek word (or even which of those languages it is).

I do realize that the three definitions overlap in conceptions of Mary (so to speak), but apparently there's a level of distinction broad enough for some scholars to get downright heretical.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
05:53 / 27.01.05
Qalyn: There's a Yiddish word 'chozzerei' or 'chazzerei' (okay, you spell it) which means, I suppose, much the same as 'Schweinerei', and which might be a little less alarming to you, Vlad. If I recall, the '-erei' suffix in German, and hence in the Yiddish, means something which is basically a mess or a messing about.

In the rare occasion I do spell it out, it's more like the latter spelling. (I don't know if you can rightly say there's a "proper" spelling to most words that are part of a mainly vocal language, but I'm sure some scholars would disagree with me.) The word means sort of a big to-do, usually undeserved, but, as you say, sort of too much happening at once. A friggin' circus, in the unflattering sense. A lot of mishegas, often from multiple directions simultaneously. American Idol, basically.

/+,
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
05:55 / 27.01.05
Oops, misattributed that quote; it was Nick, not Qalyn.

/+,
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:26 / 27.01.05
That's okay, Vlad, the difference between me & Nick is about as meaningful as the difference between empathy and compassion.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
11:28 / 27.01.05
Congratulations?

I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, Qalyn. Are you a well-educated spam robot?

(This is my 219th post)
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
21:22 / 27.01.05
As with many things in life, Sean, the answer to your question is both yes and no. Robot comes from the Russian word "robot," for worker, and I do have a job. "Spam," a product from Hormel Foods, is an acronym for "Shoulder-Pork and hAM" (though I don't know if that's really an acronym). I am not made of pork. Nor am I selling anything via mass emailing or automatic posting. My entries in this thread, and indeed every Barbelith thread to which I contribute, not to mention my friends-only livejournal Sic volo, sic jubeo or my defunct livejournal The Fist of Confusion, are all lovingly handcrafted by artisanal robots. You have nothing to fear, my apprehensive wee chamber fellow.

("Chamber fellow," an old form of "roommate," is thought to be the source of "chum.")
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
22:13 / 27.01.05
Mom, Qalyn called me his "apprehensive wee chamber fellow"!
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
19:34 / 31.01.05
The English language seems to be a rather complex machine designed to suck words in from other languages, masticate them, and extrude them in altered, frequently improved, form.

English does seem to be a strange formative stage in the evolution of language. Do other languages so readily eat and then incorporate words from other languages?

I've always thought that English is the best example of language-as-virus that I've experienced thus far... I could be biased, though, lol

But what really makes English stand out in my head is it's ability to be utterly inspecific while at first seeming like the speaker is saying something, but really it's just meaningless empty-speak. I'm thinking about modern political language in specific.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
21:27 / 07.02.05
I assume everyone knows that the name for Tanto, the Lone Ranger's sidekick, comes from the Spanish "tonto," meaning "idiot". I mean, maybe it does. The writers could've chosen it because it sounds vaguely like Squanto... except that "Kemosabe" is a swallowed-up rendering of the Spanish "Quien no sabe", or "he who doesn't know". Whatever was going on with those two, it was mutual. You realize, of course, that the Manhattan Indians believed they were ripping off some gullible white folks: who would believe you could buy an island at all? I mean, if someone came up to you and offered you a bunch of crap for a whole island, wouldn't you take the crap and run?
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
14:10 / 08.02.05
I don't believe anyone should be able to buy an island.

Then again Silvio Berlusconi and Thaksin Shinawatra have bought whole countries.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:48 / 26.02.05
I was just thinking about the word idiot. In Greek, it means "a person", doesn't it? Idi is self and the -ot suffix seems to indicate ethnic origin, as in helot. Could it mean, like villain, from the French villein, a villager, a bumpkin, a hillbilly? Or could it mean, like, any person on the street? One's own countrymen, the same rubes who drive SUVs and elect Republicans to Federal office (or the Hellenic equivalent). It seems fitting that the Greeks should invent contempt for one's own countrymen.

If I remember correctly, no one is quite sure of the origin of bastard.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:54 / 15.03.05
First of all, I want to warn you about something. This thread, called Digressions, is only %66.839 relavent to the word "digressions" on the Barbelith search function, which leads me to believe there is a more relavent version of it floating around, possibly accessible only to Platinum members.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction between a creole and a pidjin, so I don't know which one Spanglish is, but it has in common with both that it contains some extremely concise expressions, such as "masbeta", Spanglish for "much better", but containing more senses than the English phrase. The meaning of "masbeta" can range from "the best" to "you have to do better".

"Niema" means "cock", and if someone asked you "Como su niema?" you'd probably take it for a jock-ular expression of concern. In English, we'd say "How's it hangin'?" However, in Spanglish the sense of "Como su niema?" is deliciously close something you'd ask of your waiter about the lobster bisque, eg, "Would I enjoy your cock?" I don't know what to make of the fact that "niema" and "pinga", roughly "cock" and "dick", are both feminine words. Spanish is just funny that way. If you were to call someone a cock you'd use the masculine form, as in "Oye, niemo, chinga su madre!" "Culo" means ass, but is frequently used to mean head, so that "en su culo" means, simultaneously, "on your head" and "in your ass". All of this leads to great hilarity in the bilingual workplace.

Throughout my life, I've noticed that Spanglish speakers often address me as "Machete", pronounced in the Spanish way as "ma-chet-eh", rather than the rather Frenchified "mushetty". I assumed it was some slangy variant of "muchacho", the way English has man, dude, fellow, nizzle, etc. But yesterday I was informed that "machete" in Spanish means "machete", and that I'm called this because the Dominican synonim, recognized throughout Latin America, is "colinda" or "colin'". I've noticed people calling me "Colinda" before, too, but thought they were making a pun on "Que linda", calling me a sissy. No! They were calling me a badass. So, I'm pretty sure that's my superhero name, and if you see me in costume you should probably call me that.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:01 / 15.03.05
The appropriate response, by the way, to the question, "Como su niema?" is "Buena."
 
 
grant
21:13 / 15.03.05
Spanglish filecard (digression): My friend Maruchy, she grew up thinking that birthday cakes were supposed to be green because her Cuban aunties kept calling them "verde cays".
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
00:02 / 16.03.05
Hey, grant, como su niema?
 
 
grant
19:39 / 16.03.05
Buena.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:36 / 21.05.05
A Hoosier is a person from Indiana. No one knows just why this is. It is a word that refers only to itself, with no known etymology, a notion which Kurt Vonnegut found so appalling that he synthesized an entire religion from it. I suspect its origin was simply too stupid to be remembered, like the origin of the word "okay". Well, we remember that one, but it's stupid, and we shouldn't. A "fad", by the way, is "fiddle-faddle", which is what Nero did while Rome burned.

"Nero" means "black", but doesn't refer to any of Nero's physical or spiritual properties per se. IIRC, it was a family name. Caesar, on the other hand, means "hairy", and was Julius' nickname. "Caligula" was a nickname, too, but I can't remember what it means. His original name was Gaius Claudius Caesar Germanicus. "Claudius" means "limping" and "Cicero" means "warty".

Now, I am told by reliable sources that there is nothing like being a Hoosier, but it might be noted that folks from El Salvador are called guanaca, Guatamalans are called chapinga, and Hondurans are pachaco. Pachaco seems to come from payo, meaning, roughly, "countrified". I'm not so sure about guanaca. There is a kind of lama with a black face called a guanaca; it might be guernaca, meaning "warlike". I have no idea what chapinga means.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:39 / 21.05.05
Now, "chink" is definitely offensive, but you can see where it would have come of simple plain dealing. If you ask a Chinese person the name of their country, they say something that sounds a lot like "Chinkua". There are all sorts of transliteration schemes, but that's what it sounds like. It seems to me that "chink" should be used roughly the same way "Scot" is. Why is "Chinaman" inherantly offensive but "Welshman" not? Where does the "Jap" of Japan come from? The Japanese call it Nippon. Why do I cringe a little when someone says, "He is a Jew" rather than "He is Jewish"? There is something here about historical ethnic repression, but I can't seem to make a rule that doesn't have all sorts of exceptions.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
12:24 / 21.05.05
Surely it's to do with the use of a description which is accurate as a noun rather than an adjective? In the same way that there are quite different implications to the two sentences "Several of my friends are black" and "Several of my friends are blacks". I think it's something to do with the suggestion that the aspect of the person upon which you have chosen to focus is the most significant part of their existence in the manner that you categorise them. (Apologies for absolutely dire sentence construction there). This seems to apply with words for sexual orientation ("James is queer"/"James is a queer"), and various other descriptors as well. "Scot"/"Scottish" is a problem, as there doesn't seem to be too much of a difficulty with use of either word, but perhaps that's because Scottish people haven't (recently) been a persecuted minority in western English-speaking cultures. So perhaps it's something to do with the objectification of minorities.

I bet someone else has said this much better before.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:38 / 21.05.05
"Robot" is most probably from the Czech word robota, meaning originally the time that a serf would have to spend tilling his lord's lands rather than cultivating his own property, and is earliest attested in RUR, a play by Karel Capek. The disaffected, hoodie-wearing youth of the the Czech Republic, I believe, refer to the low-status, low-interest jobs that they are forced to perform in the very shops from which the wearing of a hoodie will ultimately deny them access as consumers as their robota.

Caligula is a diminutive form of caliga, the soldier's nailed sandal. Tacitus, in the Annals, and Suetonius, in his Lives of the Caesars, trace this etymology to his tendency as a child to dress as a soldier when accompanying his family in military campaigns. This is the kind of thing that you would expect to get old very quickly, but apparently the soldiers found it rather endearing.

Nero was indeed Nero's real name, but only in the sense that he changed it to Nero - Claudius apparently gave him this name, but this fact was generally decried and denied, Claudius' stock not being very high at the time (although Claudius ended up deified and Nero didn't, so ultimately the moral victory probably goes to the stammerer). Before this he was known as Lucius Domitius Aenobarbus. The Aenobarbi were a spectacularly unimaginative family, calling all their male chldren either Lucius or Cneius. One of the two noble offshoots of the Domitii, the Aenobarbi took their name from a distinguished ancestor whose beard was turned from black to red in colour by the stroking of a pair of unidentified divinities, this stroking being, however, in no way erotic. So, he became known as Aenobarbus (brazen beard), and this posterity marched down the ages. Other such nicknames, such as Cicero, named for the cicer or chickpea, did not last so long.

Speaking of pairs, Nero upheld the tradition of good brother, bad brother by having a brother, Britanicus, who has been credited with almost all the virtues known to man in the way that only those who die unfulfilled can be - see also the tragic Marcellus. My favourite bit of Britannicus-praising is this, without a doubt, if only for its insanity:

He was so extremely mild and gentle to his enemies, whoever they were, or on what account soever they bore him enmity, that, although Piso rescinded his decrees, and for a long time severely harassed his dependents, he never showed the smallest resentment, until he found himself attacked by magical charms and imprecations; and even then the only steps he took was to renounce all friendship with him, according to ancient custom, and to exhort his servants to avenge his death, if any thing untoward should befal him.

The Piso mentioned here belonged, IIRC, to one of the unluckiest dynasties of the first century AD, a Piso being killed by almost every single emperor from Claudius onwards. This unhappy sequence terminated, along with the young Piso Licinianus, when, four days after his adoption as successor to Galba, he was beheaded by the troops of Otho, whom fate and the military made the actual successor to Galba. The bucking of this trend was Licinius Crassus Scribonianus, to whom leadership of the Empire was offered by Antonius Primus, at this point commander of the Seventh Legion, I think, and power-broker during the year of the Four Emperors, but declined, possibly realising that if life for a Piso under the emperors was often abbreviated, life for a Piso as emperor would be vanishingly short indeed. He chose instead life as a private citizen.

"Private citizen" is also what the Ancient Greek word idiotes (ιδιωτησ ) means, from idios, meaning "private" or "personal". This drives the ambiguiity of the term - an idiotes can be an individual, an "average man", and thus by extension a layman or man without particular skills, and so, ultimately, a fool.

Attempts to tell other people what they should and should not find offensive are often ill-fated, as such luminaries on this board as Aus and Duncan Falconer have maintained that terminology x is, in effect, only offensive when people other than themselves use it, because they are, then, using it wrongly. No case has ever been made for "Jap", in those terms, but in the Duncanverse it might reasonably be termed a "descriptive diminutive". In this case, it is a diminutive of "Japanese", which does indeed have no immediate connection to Nihon, but is instead appropriated from the Portuguese Japao, which was used after, I assume, some Portuguese traders asked some Chinese people what was the land east of their coastline and received an answer something akin (forgive my poor transliteration) to jih pung - the source of the sun.

"The House of the Rising Sun" is a traditional song made famous by the Animals, who changed its defining quality to that of being the ruin of many a poor boy, rather than the more traditional runiation of many a poor girl. It is reasonable too say that a young woman of marriageable age (in Hebrew, an almah) going in would be unlikely to remain a virgin (in Hebrew, a bethulah) for very long. The Ancient Greek for bethulah is parthenos, as discussed above - where "virgin" and "unmarried young woman" were socially interchangeable. Now, the prophecy in the book of Isiah that a virgin would give birth (a reference, of course, to Anakin Skywalker). Matthew specifically references the prophecy of Isaiah when he describes the birth of a child from a virgin (parthenos), writing in Greek (koine, not ancient, but the word is the same). In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of, among other things, the Book of Isaiah, almah is translated as parthenos, which might be where all this confusion began.

The Animals, of course, were largely unconcerned by this, and indeed by the fact that they would in their living state be described in words of Anglo-Saxon derivation and, once slaughtered and cooked, in words of Norman derivation. It was the slaughtering they objected to primarily.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:20 / 23.05.05
I would bet dollars to donuts that ruination is not the Queen's English but has its origin in some cowboy song, like tarnation, dadgum, or varmint.
 
  

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