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What's the alternative to voting New Labour at the general election?

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06:38 / 11.01.05

So, with a general election likely to be called for May 5, reasons/excuses for voting Labour are dwindling rapidly, to the point where my only real response is a rather weak: "Well, it's Labour, innit?"

Despite the postcard I got from Tony Blair in this morning's mail telling me that Labour has steered Britain to the lowest unemployment for 29 years, the lowest mortgage rates for 40 years and the longest period of economic growth for 200 years, voting Labour just seems like a middle class way to be grown up and vote Tory but salve the conscience by calling it something that it isn't. This isn't your father's Labour party.

So. What's the alternative. Vote Conservative? Like, not in a million years. Lib Dems? Always the joke party, but could they actually have a chance, what with an increasing number of MPs and local authorities going their way? I must say, George Galloway is looking good to me at the moment, but I've never been a huge fan of protest votes.

Or - not vote at all. Which course of action, I am informed, means that I "can't bitch".

So. What to do?

08:25 / 11.01.05

i'll be voting green because round here they're the biggest opposition to tony's footsoldiers. there was an article in the gdraunia's magazine saturday with almost the exact same title as this thread. pathetic really, a red hopelessly indoctrinated since childohood desperately looking to justify placing his x in the same place it's always gone, though a moron like him could even see what scum tonygordon is. he settled for quoting the libdems but, get this, leaving the 'errs' and 'aahs' in the sections he quoted, to prove they're, like, flipfloppers? desperate.

fact 1: we can see what scum tonygordon is.

fact 2: we can remember what scum the tories are.

fact 3: the libdems are the only big party who we have no reason to absolutely not trust as yet.

jack straw will be the next pm by the way. just thought i'd say so now so i can do a massive 'told yer so' later. he has the perfect name for a british pm at this point in history.

10:11 / 11.01.05

I dunno. Minimum wage, child poverty, union and worker rights, money for schools and hospitals, the civil partnership bill. I'm not a fool and I know that Tory Blair is more a Christian democrat style politician than a Labour man, but people seem to me to ignore some important contributions that Labour have made, in ways that undermine the complaints about his rightist slant to my mind. True, New Labour likes to emphasise its tough talking centre right image and there is a great deal to object to (Iraq, PFI, civil liberties). But I just don't understand all the talk that they are no different from the Tories.

I can more or less understand voting Green, though I tend to be sceptical of smaller parties and the way they can be dominated by individuals - I still remember Ike. Labour has been a victim of this as well, but I maintain that Blair is forced to listen to his PP in a way that anchors him to the left even if it is against his will.

I'm also very unsure about voting Libdem, except tactically against the Tories, because I don't really believe they are any better than Blair. They like to position themselves as a center left party, but this ignores that a great many of them are former Tories. I could be wrong here, but I distrust their core support and convictions.

Which means that, for me, there isn't really very much handwringing when it comes to election time. True, I had it lucky when I was living in London and Jeremy Corbyn was my MP, but I'm pretty sure I'll be voting Labour come May.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:40 / 11.01.05

I'll be voting LibDem.
I wouldn't particularly want them in government right now (except in a "least of three evils" kind of way), for much the same reasons as Ms de L has outlined, but I firmly believe that a parliamentary democracy relies on having an effective opposition, and I can't bring myself to vote for the Tories.
It doesn't matter so much who the opposition actually ARE, just that they are strong enoiugh to make the governmnet feel threatened enough that they have to justify every move they make to the electorate, something that, to my mind, hasn't been happening since the Tories disappeared up their own arses. (which is why I've often found myself paradoxically wishing that the Tories would get their shit together at least a LITTLE bit more recently).

I'm not sure if the LibDems could function in that role just yet, but I believe that by the NEXT election (in 2010 or wherever) they could do, if they perform well enough this time round.

10:41 / 11.01.05

100000 dead iraqis say 'cheers'

10:42 / 11.01.05

to sperduta that is

10:44 / 11.01.05

and i didn't mean that to sound so snarky. soz.

10:58 / 11.01.05

Would you feel differently if Brown were leading the party? How much do you think he would change things, given the chance?

11:22 / 11.01.05

no, he's like tony without the clever pr (which even tony doesn't do these days).

he's finished anyway, no way can he be the next leader now. left it far too late and the pp won't forgive him for being the one to push tony over the cliff.

13:07 / 11.01.05

Do people even know what Brown's attitude to Iraq and other areas of foreign policy is? I've not seen much evidence, outside glib assertions, that brown and blair would have the same world vision, much less the same approach. But since the public has no impact on who is selected as labour leaderthis point is perhaps moot.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:38 / 11.01.05

Brown gave lip service to the war in Iraq, but my gut feeling is that if he were PM it would have had much less chance of happening, for financial reasons. (I have a sneaking suspicion- or maybe it's just my own whimsy, who can tell?- that part of the animosity between the two, as well as the whole succession issue, obviously, comes down to the fact that Mr Tony buggered up all Gordy's lovingly crafted sums).

13:41 / 11.01.05

If they let me vote at all it'll be for Greens (I think I'm eligible to vote in local elections as a foreenur), as I have for the last few years in any election. They're not so tiny anymore and are starting to exert some influence. Especially if you're talking about reducing the majority of Labour, I'd rather the Greens rather than LibDems be the ones Tony has to please.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:42 / 11.01.05

Gordon started PPP. He also took Conservative spending plans in '97 that were supposed to be so pared to the bone that Labour would be unable to undercut them and still went under them. He's economically a Euro-sceptic while Tone is more a political Eurosceptic and Tory. Gordon is not much different policy-wise from his old room-mate.

And Sax, your reasoning for not voting Lib Dem seems to be purely 'well they won't win'. If everyone that had that opinion actually voted for them... There seems to be a real problem, which plays into both Labour and the Tories hand, that people seem to think they vote for the party that wins. If the candidate who's policies you most agree with is an epileptic hedgehog with a drinking problem then you should vote for them even if you're the only one to do so, because we've seen in the last ten to fifteen years that it's the skinheaded bootboy that wants to liquidate Asians and castrate the queers that has the least difficult getting their vote out. Your vote might not get the Lib Dem/Green in but it might help keep the fascist out.

< /rant >

14:38 / 11.01.05

I decided at the last election that I would never again vote tactically.

My reasons are; a) I live in a Scottish constituency that doesn't traditionally elect Tories, b) I DESPISE the Labour candidate in my constituency, c)The "First Past The Post" voting system is crap and I refuse to have my vote casting manipulated by it, d) I live in eternal fantastical hope that one glorious election everyone else will realise what a crock of shit tactical voting is and we'll actually hear the opinion of the nation.

I'm still swithering about my vote but I know for sure I will not vote for this murderous Labour government.

15:45 / 11.01.05

if i were British, and i'm not, i'm fairly certain i'd vote Lib Dem. not because they're particularly stellar, but they have a chance of really becoming the #2 party in the near future, and i think that the political scene would be much healthier where the primary axis of contention was the Labour-Lib Dem one instead of the Labour-Tory one.

but that's just one American's opinion.

17:50 / 11.01.05

Another option I'd suggest, Sax, is to vote locally rather than nationally. Your local Labour candidate may be, say, rabidly anti-war, like Tam Dayell or Alice Mahon, or Blairite robot through and through, like Alun Milburn or Peter Mandelson (and yes, I know he isn't a candidate but you see my point...)

Your local Tory could be rabidly homophobic and a dumb old Tory buffoon - Nicholas Winterton, say, or he could be out and proud, like Alan Duncan.

Your local Lib Dem could be sober and sensible, like Menzies Campbell. Or he might be Charles Kennedy. (Cheap shot, I know. Half the problem, I hear.)

Thing is, MPs and wannabe MPs are, as in most other walks of life, people. They might be more in tune with your thinking than with their party's.

Talk to them, challenge them - perhaps even read about them in your local paper, if it's any good (ahem).

Find out what you can about each candidate - look on sites such as They Work For You or Public Whip and think locally, as well as nationally....

15:33 / 16.01.05

I wouldn't vote for the Greens based on their thoroughly narrow minded policy on nuclear power.

It's really a toss up between Conservative and Lib Dem. Considering that I live in one of the safest Conservative seats in Britain, it makes bugger all difference.

11:20 / 17.01.05

i think the current thought, that a fifty-year (or so)period of renuclearisation is the answer to global warming is a bit misguided: it sounds to me like an industrial-age solution to a post-industrial problem. i think passing laws forcing (and providing grants helping) communities to put solar panels on the roof of every home and a windmill in every garden is a far wiser way to go.

but i'm no green, though i am coming to the idea that global warming is actually the only political issue of any long-term significance. i often think, grotesquely, that a combination of terrorism and the market will save us from the oil industry faster than 'a vote for the environment'.

to correct my post above, and to provide some info for those of you living in Brighton, Pavilion constituency (should be a few): the greens, despite their relatively impressive doorstep and newsletter campaigns and their good position in the city council, actually came fourth in 2001. the results were depressingly predictable, going Labour, Tory, LibDem, Green (though bob dobbs did get more votes than ukip). this means that contrary to earlier statements i'll be voting libdem* in may, which is kind of what i wanted to do, for reasons similar to stoatie's and much to mum&dad's pleasure.

*the tactical part of me even wants to vote tory. just can't do it, even though i'd probably be a wee bit richer under them...

12:48 / 17.01.05

(though bob dobbs did get more votes than ukip)

That's beautiful.

15:26 / 17.01.05

It seems unavoidable that any party who gains power will become unpopular.

15:39 / 17.01.05

It's really a toss up between Conservative and Lib Dem. Considering that I live in one of the safest Conservative seats in Britain, it makes bugger all difference.

That's not a valid excuse not make it less of a safe Conservative seat by one vote if you feel that the Lib Dems would do a better job.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:05 / 18.01.05

That was my initial reaction too, sleaze, but on closer inspection the first sentence of the passage you quoted implies that TM IS planning to vote... just not expecting it to make much difference.

15:07 / 18.01.05

Well, obviously, I won´t be voting.

But the German politicians got so fucked up these last years, that many people stopped voting. I always voted green, because I saw them as the "lesser evil", but since they got out of the opposition they behave just as bad as the rest. So, next time I´ll be voting for one of these really small parties, for example the animal protection party.

So, if you have one of these small parties, vote for them. Then you can bitch about the ruling parties (because you voted) and whenever some scandal or other annoying debacle happens, you can see, you did not vote for THEM.

11:16 / 19.01.05

"Then you can bitch about the ruling parties (because you voted) and whenever some scandal or other annoying debacle happens, you can see, you did not vote for THEM."

Scandal and annoying debacles always happen. It is just human. Any party who governs is going to be in the spotlight for this. Isn't voting for a small one issue party a bit of a wimp out?

I'm probably going to vote for New Labour because they have managed the country well.

11:37 / 19.01.05

that's good. i'm sure before too long we'll be able to find another 100000 dead iraqis to say 'cheers' to you too.

seriously, an illegal war, the most cowardly, despicable kind of evasion and obfuscation you can imagine surrounding it, a hundred thousand casualties, and you're going to vote them back in? how evil do people have to be before the voting population decides someone else should have a go?

13:06 / 19.01.05

Yeah, I know Gumbitch. It is one of those questions. Should I not vote for Labour because of Iraq? It is a big nasty, depressing mess. Hmmm.

13:22 / 19.01.05

As an American voting for the losing side, I hope y'all will vote LibDem. They're not Tory and probably won't do any worse than Labour. If LibDems gain at Labour's expense (more than the Conservatives do), then Labour might stop trying to fight the Tories on the right. Fighting an enemy on the enemy's home ground (as the Democrats are doing in the US) is stupid, bound to fail anyway, and certain to erode one's support even further.

In a best case, Labour and the LibDems change places, and they ally for a majority. I have no idea how that will play out, but it's a broomstick in Tony's spokes and it keeps the Tories out.

Worst case is Labour voters defect to the Conservatives, who unite with the UKIP (f'rinstance) to make that 50.1%.

13:38 / 19.01.05

Also: as has been pointed out many times before, the LibDems stand an increasingly good chance of becoming the official opposition, especially with the split that the right is suffering. And with a LibDem official opposition, we might actually see the re-emergence of the left in this country, either on their part or on New Labour's - the two parties will have to differentiate themselves from each other somehow, and that can only be done sensibly by one of them shifting away from the centre/centre-right.

Tryphena Absent

14:51 / 19.01.05

We might at least get some focus on the positive things (some of them mentioned by L'Anima Sperduta at the top of this thread) that the Labour party have done if we had a left opposition rather than the nonsense righter than thou party that currently holds that title. It would be really good to see the right questions targetted at Blair for once.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

16:29 / 19.01.05

Interesting piece on Newsnight last night about exactly this thread...a journo went to meet key figures from all parties and drew them out about key issues, mainly concerned with the erosion of the public services to the private sector, but Iraq and blah blah fishcakes all featured as well...

Roy Hattersley was featured and made an impassioned speech that it was essential to vote labour because, quote, 'Tony Blair is not immortal', and when he goes there is a clear opportunity to get labour back on course as the social democratic party of choice and wave goodbye to this New Blairite vision that has so disenchanted the core party faithful...He made the point that with Labour in, it is then up to the electorate to actually get involved, join the party, and lobby for the change they want...

All very idealistic, but the Tories and Lib Dems came across as just plain hopeless, and the fringe parties are...well...fringe.

17:21 / 28.01.05

Anyone reading John Harris' So Who Do We Vote For Now?

I've just added it to my list of books which I've bought and which stare at me menacingly while I wrestle with my Christmas stash...

He's the journo in teh Guardian piece mentioned above, and I suspect the one off of Newsnight too...

21:13 / 28.01.05

As a newbie to this site, let my first post be: "Lets hear it for proportional representation". OK we may end up with a coalition....at least there might be some accountability...

Anyone but President Blair...

(or Michael Howard)...

23:27 / 28.01.05

Roy Hattersley was featured and made an impassioned speech that it was essential to vote labour because, quote, 'Tony Blair is not immortal'

What a pile of crap. Blair's already committed himself to five more years in charge, and barring him finally having that heart attack or there being a rebellion from inside the party, that's precisely what we'll get for voting Labour.

On the plus side, he's said he won't stay on past that five year limit. So yeah, I'll probably vote Labour again. In five years' time when the fucker resigns, depending on who replaces him. Until then, no. Hattersley's "getting Labour back on course" will have just as much chance of success - more, in all likelihood - only I won't have sold my soul to the devil in the meantime.

Tryphena Absent

11:16 / 29.01.05

I went to a talk on this at the ICA and John Harris was the chair... and he's fantastic and I really like the first chapter of his book. The whole thing won me around to Respect completely (the talk, not the book) and I think I'm in love with China Mieville, which was there before but has now blossomed in to righteousness. You should have been there... everyone should have been there.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:05 / 29.01.05

Slight tangent- Margery, there's an interview with Mieville in the latest Interzone, in which he talks mainly about his political work. (Unfortunately he DOES also talk about his books a little, so don't read it if you haven't read Iron Council yet).

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