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Magic Ethics

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Evil Scientist
13:09 / 15.10.07
It could be considered harrassment, in theory.
 
 
Quantum
15:55 / 15.10.07
Only if the target knew about it. No court in the land (Eng land anyway) is going to convict someone of cursing their neighbour behind their back.

Ahh, I'm a friendly one though. Like Dexter, only not so toned.

Like Dexter Fletcher, only not so stoned.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:20 / 13.11.07
Where do ethics enter into perspective when someone has been dealing exclusively with death entities, thriving on disease and disorder and ultimately death? I have been considering this and trying to figure the place of ethics in relationship to death, not as an occurrence exclusively but as a magical practice also.

I think in some ways knowledge and experience of death strips away ethics and morals, actual experience of near death can reveal pretty much all human systems of order to be nothing much more than illusions that people cling to to give them a sense of security in the real face of death. Pretty much empty in comparison to a stark natural reality that death is inevitable.

I have heard people exclaim that death makes you appreciate the life you have, but another way of relating to that experience and in many ways just as liberating is to give up entirely, no effort what so ever, only that which requires no effort becomes important, death becomes the stark reality that defines action and non action. A slow subtle relaxation into inevitability.

I get the impression that some people are not comfortable with this relationship to death mysteries, but it seems like a valid approach from my experience of them. Nothing to achieve nothing to obtain, no direction to go in, just the acceptance of a slowly rotting and decaying mind and body, giving up all attachment effort and clinging to any impermanent form what so ever.

An acceptance that none of it actually matters none of it has any value, that ethics, morals, systems of belief and human thought and construction in the end of the stark reality they face amount to nothing.

Care for the planet which also faces death the sun or the solar system, quite meaningless, nothing no part of it worth anything, tens of thousands of human and animal deaths over centuries all without purpose, fulfilling a perfectly natural function without any meaning or inherent value what so ever. Illusions stripped away until only the bones remain, a bare structure, a cyclic progression without any meaning.

We hide the stark facts of life behind moral façades and ethical illusions to protect ourselves from the inevitability of death and dying, create relative pretences of culture and context to hide the fear we carry, when facing that fear frees us from the very things our instincts for death and destruction demand liberation from.

Killing creating pain and disorder are as much a part of the human situation as there opposites why then do we choose to value that which inevitably leads us into the same dilemma, Death.

Being in love will kill me as equally as hating its inevitable why raise the value of law over crime, why is the ethical more suitable than the unethical? In a world stripped of value and meaning it really does not seem to matter.

Death is the final answer to all of my questions. All of my actions all of yours mean nothing in the face of death, no matter what values we cling to its all utterly meaningless.

Ethics become nothing more than a mind game to keep an inherent duality alive in the mind, right wrong, good bad. self judgement and the judgements of others to reinforce the value of things that actually have none what so ever.

The idea of human life or my life or yours having value is the first pretext used to create meaning, once that meaning is contrived into being anything that takes that point away is presented as the enemy.

Death is actually the liberator from all of this continued suffering and misery created by the false assumptions that value creates, clinging to these values creates more and more pain.

My answer to the question of magical ethics is to give up let go, relax and die. Living a natural life can be as effortless as dying.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:36 / 13.11.07
Please do not get me wrong.

I do not kill people or hurt them or steal from them etc nor do i encourage others too, but the world around me more than often paints the picture above for me. It seems to be the worlds natural state, a kind of chaotic decay. The imposition of ordered human constructs upon it seems to me to actually increasing the rate at which this process happens rather than decreasing it.

I wonder if giving up all systems of order ethical, moral or otherwise is not the answer to the dilemma.

As i said before just letting go and submitting to the way things are without trying to impose a false order with what ever values it may contain, seems to be the most straight forward answer.
 
 
Princess
18:59 / 13.11.07
I wonder if giving up all systems of order ethical, moral or otherwise is not the answer to the dilemma.

Try it. Bet you that it's impossible. Ordered systems include language, your body and your thoughts.

What I mean is, yes, order might be an illusion. But if it is then so is chaos. They only exist as a binary, they are relative states of being.

But, cleverness aside, who cares?
The worldview you are describing sounds like the deep apathy of depression. Nihilism is not a happy place to be. And if theres no point to anything, theres no point in holding onto an unhappy world-view, even if it is true.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:26 / 13.11.07
I see what your saying about the binary dualism of chaos and order and about the orders of thought and the body etc, they are indeed relative terms and approaches to what i am describing.

Nihilism is an interesting one, it is not so much true or depressing or unhappy if accepted. In fact lots of quality's which are more than usually loaded into a sort of negative camp are not negative unless comparisons of the opposite are seen as being more desirable. I have often found that being more attracted to the often perceived more positive qualities actually creates the process of a negative situation, a cyclic one, where achievement itself in either direction becomes a point for creation of suffering.

Effortlessness is a way of removing that entire dilemma, what's necessary becomes the limit of potential, above and beyond basic living is where the ethical dilemma begins to set in, it becomes the moderation of ones extraneous desires in order for one to feel good about behaviours. That in it self imposes a value and reward system which operates from passionate worth and behaviourist reinforcement.

There is an effortless natural state that lies beneath these high ideals of ethics and morals and social systems that requires very little trying, none what so ever in fact. Death is only one of the doorways to understand that state and live in it as much as possible.

A natural spirituality arises without the forced need of a tradition or in many regards a practice, it has no monitors, but is easily lost when the pretences of culture are adopted as more 'real' than this natural state.

Living can be as effortless as dying, birth death life do not require ethics to thrive.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:30 / 13.11.07
Let me provide an example - I get up early in the morning put my dressing gown on, pull back the curtains and the sun is rising illuminating the communal garden the frost on the leaves, the autumn fire of the trees and the stark skeletons of branches bared to the cold.

Thers an almost immediate reaction in my perception from the window, the magic is in how i see, without qualifying or quantifying the experience or giving the behaviour an ethical or unethical slant.

I can reflect on the beautiful ugliness of the trees against the skyline and begin to notice how a sight can be both beautiful and ugly but that is a personal relative experience it has no context outside of personal interaction.

I could apply social signifies to the situation, begin to call upon memories of nature documentarys or lessons learned in a classroom in the past, apply a context. Or even start to see through Wiccan or shamanistic eyes. But thats one step away from the actual experience. It does not so much add to the experience but feels as if it subtracts or if you like distorts.

I do not need to see it as part of some gigantic cosmic order whether it be god's of a current theory, it simply is what it is with or without the context i bring to it.

It is interesting when magic or any other view point tries to force its issue upon the natural context, i think it is the idea of willed force that actually creates the ethical dilemma. Remove that intention or force and the ethics fall away into and underlying inherent nature.

If i were asked to draw a difference between a magician and a mystic this would be it, a submission to the way things are does not mean no magic it means allying one self to the way natural forces are already moving to perform magic, rather than using force to try and define or reshape a natural situation from its current path.

Magic does not require ethics what so ever, it has no inherent ethical value, the real question is whether some magicians or practitioners do, and those that attempt to force the natural order rather than work with it and its path most definitely do.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
22:23 / 13.11.07
Magic does not require ethics what so ever, it has no inherent ethical value, the real question is whether some magicians or practitioners do, and those that attempt to force the natural order rather than work with it and its path most definitely do.

Information is nuetral, as are the senses through which we receive it - it is the interpretation that gives information meaning and determines what emotions will result. What we intend to do with these emotions and how we express these intentions, converts this meaning back into information without meaning, for others to sense and interpret.
 
 
electric monk
03:10 / 14.11.07
This is all very...interesting, but how is any of it applicable to the magician living in, y'know, a community? Where ze has the choice of alleviating, ignoring, or adding to the suffering of those around hir?

What we intend to do with these emotions and how we express these intentions, converts this meaning back into information without meaning, for others to sense and interpret.

That's utter crap. Expressions of intent have meaning. Information has meaning. They can mean different things to different people, but they are not value-neutral because of that.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
04:17 / 14.11.07
Expressions of intent have meaning. Information has meaning. They can mean different things to different people, but they are not value-neutral because of that.

Yes, expressions of intent have meaning, as does information, however not by themselves - it is their interpretation which gives them meaning. If no one interprets them, than value is not assigned to them one way or another.

As this applies to magic in a general sense, magic isn't good or bad, however the interpretation of it is what gives it such meanings, which is where the ethics of magic comes into play. As (I hope) most of us interpret information in a human manner, we would assign similar human meanings and hence have similar ethical considerations, such as empathy, equality, civility, and fallibility -Golden Rules and Golden Means- with considerations given to individuality, culture, and perspective.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:56 / 14.11.07
[Mod hat]

Okay people, this is a really interesting topic and it would be great if we could kind of try and stay with it. I'm seeing a lot of rather disjointed posts here, which, while they may be individually interesting to read, don't quite hang together and seem to me to be veering away from the main theme of the thread.

The topic of ethical conduct for magical and spiritual practitioners is an important one, and I'd like to see this thread focus on that. Maybe it would be a good idea to deal elsewhere with some of the other themes that have emerged?
 
  

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