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Magic Ethics

  
  

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Rev. Jesse
04:33 / 10.08.01
So,

Where do you all draw the line on magic? Do you draw a line?

What I am thinking here is, would you use magic to obtain things normally obtained by other skills?

Would you use magic to find a lover? To snag a specific lover? Would you use magic to obtain a promotion? What about gambling, would you use magic to win at the tables? Would you use magic to win at sports?

Is there an ethical problem with magic being used in this manner? What if you were the subject of the love spell? Would you be aware of its magical origin; would you be able to defend yourself?

-Jesse
 
 
Mordant Carnival
04:59 / 10.08.01
Ultimately it all comes down to individual ethics, just like anything else. It's between you and your concience where the line gets drawn. I don't see anything wrong with using magick to start a new relationship (or even for a one night stand if that's what floats yer boat), but I do think a person should consider the consequences of their actions for the other party. Are they happy by themselves, orin their current relationship? Do you get to come bursting in and throw their lives out of whack?

Personally I feel that a magickal love spell works on the caster as much as on the subject, by ironing out a few personality flaws and making them more understanding and considerate towards the subject. Ye Gods but you talked a lot of shite, woman. --2007 Mordant no longer believes this

As for sports: Hell, it's not like we're popping steroids here. Maybe the sigil helps you train harder, or improves your all important confidence- what's wrong with that?

As for obtaing a promotion: Why not? So long as you can actually do the job, what's wrong with getting the promotion? And if you can't do the job, you'll be the one who suffers ultimately as your lack of ability becomes glaringly obvious.

Like I say, it's a matter of personal morality.
 
 
nul
07:51 / 10.08.01
Where do you all draw the line on magic? Do you draw a line?

I have yet to push myself to a point where I'll discover where my line is, but I know it can go furthur than most might find tolerable. As Modant said, it comes down to the ethics of the individual.

Magic, by it's nature, is intended to get you things you wouldn't using normal skills. Magic to find a lover, sure. Magic to get a promotion, yes. I only gamble on politics, and as much as I'd like to, my piss-poor sigils or incantations won't influence a federal election. And I use some form of
magic to win at sports all the time.

No, there isn't really an ethical problem, from my point of view. There are various theologies and morality codes that disagree with me completely, and spread stories about karma or just find themselves disgusted.

I like to think if a love spell hit me, I'd be able to defend myself. Then again, love spells aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Or so I'm told.
 
 
fluid_state
18:45 / 10.08.01
There's an argument to be made that just about everybody uses "Magick", in some form or another; the application of Will to the Universe in whatever form isn't always called magick... when my mom does it, I call it determination. when my dad does it, no-one notices until the effects of his actions manifest themselves. My brother willed to improve his station in life, and has overcome impossible challenges by throwing his heart and soul at them. The only constant I see between the three of them, however, is honest-to-goodness altruism; they don't notice it, but it drives all three of them. Maybe it means something, proably doesn't, but I've found it a wonderful precedent.
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
11:22 / 11.08.01
True, true .. you do magic whether you think about it or not.. in fact, there's a concern that magic thinking just deconstructs the process too far, & is less effective than going with the flow like an innocent, who relies on well-evolved subconscious systems for dealing with the 'other'.

eg. Magical cultivation of 'Lucid dreaming' - maybe your usual dream awareness is a superbly adapted area of consciousness which deals with dreaming on many parallel levels your conscious mind just can't grasp - then how useful is it really to force your mind into a waking mode when in dreams? You're not always being cleverest by 'understanding' things more consciously....
 
 
nul
12:11 / 11.08.01
There's also an argument to be made that people have no will at all and this is just a big, pre-scripted, unrehearsed event. Depends on what floats your spiritual boat.

Is it unsensible to have lucid dreams? Is that just our filthy, conscious arrogance, the feverent desire to have control asserting itself? I disagree.

If we can't understand ourselves consciously, we're just going to continue along, letting whatever current push you along, merrily accepting our destiny. Maybe that is the proper thing to do. Maybe it isn't.

We're explorers. The healthy, normal lifestyle isn't what you get when you explore.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:11 / 11.08.01
The ethics are the same as they would be elsewhere. People row about this a lot, but ultimately it's pretty simple for everyone. If you think about it, you know. Others may not agree, but it's rare that they'll change your mind...
 
 
klint
15:02 / 12.08.01
On love spells, some personal experience...

Part of examining the ethics of magick has to include theory on how magick works. My own speculation is that it works by creating synchronicity (meaningful coincidence). If you will to get laid or find your perfect lover, what you're doing is trying to set yourself up to be in the right place at the right time.

Trying to get someone in particular is much more difficult ethically because of the questions Mordant asked. In this situation you have to wonder if you're taking away someone else's freewill to serve your own will. Then you have to ask if this is right or wrong, or if you even want to be with this person if the only reason they're with you is because you brainwashed them by wanking or meditating or whatever.

To deal with this I usually try to use divination and\or intuition to determine if someone is interested in me before I try fuckin' about with magick (I have tried to get people with magick who didn't like me, and it hasn't worked. Perhaps an example of trying to put too much strain on the universe as Peter J. Carrol says).
Where magick can come in useful in these circumstances is overcoming obstacles that may complicate a potential relationship. Someone who likes you may be reluctant to go out with you or sleep with you (depending on what you're going for ), but you could use magick to "convince" them otherwise. This has worked for me.

In Thelema, will is the whole of the law. Love is below will. In my own set of ethics, it's the other way around.
 
 
Seth
18:46 / 12.08.01
I strongly agree with the “we’re all using magic every day” concept. There are obvious links between studies of memetics/neuro-linguistic programming and the way many of these techniques may work. We’re constantly shaping and reshaping our memories, experiences, relationships, environment and our futures. The fact that some people use what may be understood as “magic” doesn’t change the day-to-day ethical maze - it just gives a wider array of methodologies.

The problem comes with magickal practises that are an inherent part of belief systems. For example, I would personally say that human sacrifice will never equate with ethical magic. However, as I imagine the debate is concerning more liberated forms, this is a may be an irrelevant sidetrack to the main discussion. On an aside, is it possible to have any methodology that is divorced from belief systems, bearing in mind we all operate within our own limited framework? And is it possible to have a magickal way of working that is truly separate from an external, organised belief system (shunning convention is pretty conventional these days)?

As for whether an understanding of the process has an adverse effect on results, I would answer “only if you let it.” Choosing not to examine and question for fear of “jinxing” the outcome just smacks of unhealthy superstition IMHO (and lets not be simplistic - our subconscious language of dream symbolism and association is on of the most powerful processing tools at our disposal. Understanding/exploration isn’t always a conscious exercise).
 
 
Seth
09:40 / 17.08.01
"Here come the thread killer..."
 
 
electric monk
15:48 / 25.04.07
test bump!
 
 
This Sunday
16:13 / 25.04.07
I really think ethics is just aesthetics. Because I'm really lazy and can't be bothered being a good person so much as avoiding being the sort of person I'd want to smack in the face with whatever were available. Beating yourself up is hard work, so I've basically resolved to stop giving myself excuses to do it unless it seems like a really fun idea at the time.

And it's all magick. Magicks like love. It's there and all-pervasive because I say it is. And while everyone's free to disagree with that, and go on living their lives however they want, it doesn't actually change me seeing it that way, all magick and love.

Magick's a great model/lens because you don't have to actually believe it's real. It's just as effective as a model, whereas a lot of models have to be reality and entirely true and right.
 
 
This Sunday
16:16 / 25.04.07
To be more specific, I did a bit of a sigily thing to push a very selfish little thing, and then my friend ended up in the hospital, coma, talk of limbs coming off and inevitable death, and I thought, fuck it, I'll move over all my 'accomplishment' engines to him getting worked out right.

The only thing I won't do, is make deals. I ain't signing any contracts with nothing I can't see all the hands on, y'know?
 
 
Quantum
16:25 / 25.04.07
A friend of mine says of magical ethics 'Don't do anything with magic you wouldn't do with rohypnol or a chainsaw'.
 
 
Sunfell
16:55 / 25.04.07
Back when I was a young thang, I seemed to be brewing up spells and workings nearly every time I turned around. I used oracles, I did candle spells, you name it, I tried it.

Then... I got older. I learned a lot from the blowback of spells I did wrong, or for the wrong reasons. And the more I learned, the less overt oogida-boogida stuff I did.

Heck, I can't think of the last time I actually did something. I don't think it's been this century, to be honest!

So. What happened to put an end to the woo-woo? Part of it was internalizing the intent and operation. The rest of it was good old elbow grease and common sense: you can't magic love, power, or money into existence- you actually have to work at it and earn it.

And this has been my philosophy. Now, I do still use glamours and 'perma-spells' for various purposes- mostly for Not Being Seen. This isn't so I can do anything illegal or mischievous- it's because I prefer to have intrusive or dangerous gazes miss seeing me. Sometimes Not Being Seen is an annoyance- it's difficult to switch off when I am out in public, and I practically have to shout or stand right in the way of salespeople to get attention. And while I rarely deploy Not Being Seen at work, there have been times when I've needed it. But it is hazardous to use in crowded places, and I've been slammed into by people who literally did not see me, including a news camera crew. The bruise from the damn camera has finally faded.

I don't think that using magic in a protective manner is unethical at all. I have my home, workplace and vehicle nicely warded, and a Guardian who happily scares the b'Jeezus out of visitors he does not like- but that is only for people within 3' of the thresholds. And if it keeps door-to-door solicitors and missionaries away, that's not a problem.

I prefer to use mundane skills for promotions, love, etc. Magic should be a tool, not a crutch.
 
 
Ticker
16:59 / 25.04.07
I'm contemplating a work on behalf of someone else. In my particular situation the person is in my family and while I will ask for permisson from them before doing the work I'm still having an internal conflict about it.

Basically this person is very ill and getting worse. While the allopathic docs claim it just one of those things it is pretty obvious to the rest of us involved (with the same genetic problems and potential illness) that the vast majority of the current situation is due directly to this person not taking care of themselves. Without going into a huge amount of detail to avoid privacy issues I'll offer that everyone who knows this person agrees that they are not doing the basic work required to improve their health and are holding out for a magic pill cure.

An attitude which obviously drives me fucking batty.

So the people involved have tried more conventional means of intervening and achieved no results. With this in mind I feel with all conventional suggestions and actions being rejected by this person it maybe time to bring out the big guns (it's that or emotionally disengage which honestly I can't do).

So the big guns involve asking this person for persmission to invoke our shared Ancestors and to some extent shared Pantheon. I personally know from working with these Folks I can expect a combination of something akin to soul retrival and burning the house down to motivate someone to move. Basically it's an act of magic to ask Them to make this person be invested in their own well being and to address the internal work that needs to happen. Bootstrapping another person on this level just feels wrong to me ethically but sometimes you have to try and save the suicidal just so they see it can be done. Jump starting the wounded soul.

It might not even work at all but I feel it is the last thing on the list to try.

For the record I usually refuse to do healing or magic on behalf of anyone who can't be bothered to take action on their own with the obvious things and just want the quick fix. I will however pray for them to get motivated but I won't do their work.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:59 / 25.04.07
When survival is the issue, which ever works, magic with ethics, without, or just ethics or none depends on the situation, is there a set code set in stone, a magical dogma?

Nope.
 
 
This Sunday
17:17 / 25.04.07
'Encourage them' I can get behind 'make them'... well, if it's a matter of survival, I suppose you're just encouraging someone in the direction of not getting shot when you hold a gun to their head. I'd say your on the side of good with this one.

Do you really believe in the possibility 'making' someone something?

Anyway, enough semantics and neurosis. You: good, very useful and clearer headed than I. Good luck with it all and here's hoping they wind up alright.
 
 
Ticker
17:26 / 25.04.07
When survival is the issue, which ever works, magic with ethics, without, or just ethics or none depends on the situation, is there a set code set in stone, a magical dogma?

Nope.


It depends on what you call survival. I work with Death Deities and sometimes forcing people to stay in this life is unkind and unjust. So it is more about judgment of where to apply pressure. At the very least I'm looking at poking someone's karma with a big stick which obviously impacts my karma.




Do you really believe in the possibility 'making' someone something?

Pppppffff.... >< ....thinking

Yes I do actually think you can make someone something. Most who would do it lack the finesse of doing it gently over time. Usually it has to be done in great big heavy hand doses of unpleasant.

doesn't mean they can't unmake themselves from that form but it takes an equal amount of energy.
 
 
Papess
17:29 / 25.04.07
Is part of your dilemma XK, that the "cure" may be devastating? Sometimes, one has to be strong enough to handle the remedy to their troubles.
 
 
This Sunday
17:31 / 25.04.07
Well, death's just a sort of survival, isn't it? Unless you mean an actual fullstop. And even then, I suppose.

And I think if you can say/post: Yes I do actually think you can make someone something. then you're definitely in a position where you might as well do what you decide to do, if that makes any sense.
 
 
Ticker
17:47 / 25.04.07
Is part of your dilemma XK, that the "cure" may be devastating? Sometimes, one has to be strong enough to handle the remedy to their troubles.

I think I'm debating if people have the right to not be forced to change even when it's killing them.

And I think if you can say/post: Yes I do actually think you can make someone something. then you're definitely in a position where you might as well do what you decide to do, if that makes any sense.

Who must do the hard things? Ze who can. Yeah I've already crossed that moral line, you're right. Thank you.

I think I resent having to do work for someone else when my new kindness perspective informs me they are doing it because they are injured not just willfully fucking off like it appears on the surface. If I promote the true injury to heal, the person should be able to step up to the rest of the problem. In theory.
 
 
Papess
17:57 / 25.04.07
Bodhisattvas are known for their immense patience, XK.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:26 / 25.04.07
I am not sure you can make a person a something, i am not sure there is ever anything there but temporary identifiers, that change with cycles and conditions, change the surrounding and inner conditions, you change the person and the perspective.

But i don't think there is an essence to change, just a process passing through some flesh for now and conditions to be met, or in a process of constant modification, no integrity anywhere. Constant inconsistency.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:32 / 25.04.07
Things in a continual state of impermanence and decay, the order being the structure of impermanent factors of decay, time as the vehicle of death that life thrives upon.

There is never a person because of a name, just slow death and quick quick slow.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:34 / 25.04.07
I am guessing quick quick slow.
 
 
Ticker
18:40 / 25.04.07
Wolf, I'm having a hard time following you.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:28 / 25.04.07
Apologies, i have started writing poetry again and really need to take that head off before i post. I cannot make me out either now if thats any consolation.
 
 
Ticker
19:32 / 25.04.07
it's all good I appreciate you thinking about it with me.
 
 
Saturn's nod
20:44 / 25.04.07
... my new kindness perspective informs me they are doing it because they are injured not just willfully fucking off like it appears on the surface. If I promote the true injury to heal, the person should be able to step up to the rest of the problem.

This seems sound to me: I'm all for cutting at the root causes.

I think I resent having to do work for someone else...

This though I'm not so sure about. I'm sure you're planning to have a good look into your motivation, but resentment's something I'm really wary of.
 
 
This Sunday
21:39 / 25.04.07
I dunno, resentment might be a good thing to work with. I mean, that's practically the definition of a proper (sort of Russo-Turkic) shaman. One who knows things. And is kinda cranky about it. Right, I'm being facetious a little tiny bit, but it's still true.

Resentment's not getting royally pissed off, and then, maybe getting royally pissed off is a useful thing too, depending on what you're doing.

Of course, I have an ethical out for all this, which is, whatever you intend to do and try to do, things sort themselves, even if it's against you. The world's probably better than any of us. Or, any of them, for that matter. It's got the mad skillz, the world.
 
 
petunia
21:50 / 25.04.07
While it is very presuming of me to ask this, and i apologise if this comes across the wrong way, i do wonder how much of the action you are considering is for yourself.

I do not mean to insinuate a selfish nature to your thoughts, but you obviously feel a great amount of distress in seeing what this person is doing to themself. It seems like it might be beneficial to first consider how much of your actions will actually be made in order to heal yourself.

The question of whether we can change another person is a tricky one. I personally believe that a person will only change if they want to and that literally making them change is harmful to them and others. However, showing them themself and making them want to change by their own volition can be a very powerful thing.

But that's fucking hard. They have to see who they are and what they are doing. They have to not want this. They have to realise that they are the only person who can change themself. They have to want to bring about change in themself. That's a lot of stuff for a person who, by the sounds of things, isn't the best at facing facts.

From what you say, it seems you and yours can bring about the 'showing' part of this, but the rest depends on the person you are showing. For every Scrooge persuaded to change his ways by them ghosts, there are a million people watching 'an inconvenient truth', then driving home. The person has to want to change, or they just won't.

So really, i'm wondering how much you are thinking of shoving onto this person. Whether you are planning a Scrooge-style awakening-to-self or a literal coercion. The first stemming from desire to help, the second stemming from desire to stop the pain you feel.

From your presence on the board, i can pretty much assume you are fully focussed on healing but in times like these, we end up with tonnes of conflicting emotions and desires, many of which aren't too virtuous. While i doubt it is what you intend, i seriously recommend against coercion-for-avoidance-of-pain; it never works and it tends to make things worse.

Again, apologies if it seems like i'm pointing the finger. This seems a bit like a rant and i really don't want it to. It's just that i've been in similar situations and i know the amount of worry, pain and anger that can run shitrot through your brain, making it very hard to figure out what's right to do. It can be fucking hard, but you've really got to keep an eye out where you're acting from...
 
 
petunia
22:37 / 25.04.07
Also, you say

they are not doing the basic work required to improve their health and are holding out for a magic pill cure.

Is there not a risk that you are essentially providing this magic cure? If you go ahead and ask your patrons to do this, aren't you confirming to this person that they just need to hang on for long enough til someone else sorts it out for them?

I suppose the intention is to provide a kick up the ass to make them realise that they have to act for themself, but you are still giving them that 'thing' that they would ideally be providing by themself.

That isn't to say that you shouldn't go ahead, but this may well be where some of your feelings of conflict lie. It's a tricky fucker and i definitely don't envy your position. Good luck with whatever you choose.
 
 
Ticker
23:59 / 25.04.07
DD's right on the money with the crankiness though my peeps tend to call it grumpy. Six of one half dozen of the other.

.trampetunia:

I appreciate where you are coming from and I think you are walking with me as I unpack my motives.I find your insights helpful not ranty.

Saturn's Nod is also right to pull up short on the resentment side of things.

I've withheld this sort of intervention exactly for the reasons of trying to respect this person's choices even if they are the choices I wouldn't make and are putting me in my in a world of unpleasant. (as well as everyone else involved)

Bringing it to this thread and to a few other community venues is helping me process it and examine my motives and what I hope to achieve.

I'm currently coming around to view the situation very differently than I have previously. I'm starting to review it as my responsibility to take action on behalf of this person because they have been entrusted to me and I have a skill set they don't have. My selfishness has actually been manifesting in the desire to avoid involvement with their 'messy' issues which a path of action chucks me into headlong. The harder path is rolling up my sleeves, sourcing my kindness/compassion and pitching in.

In the type of magical ritual work I do this sort of undertaking carries a certain personal risk. I've been resentful of having to take that risk when the person in question seems to be avoiding doing any work at all. Again the solution seems to be leading by example.
"I think you are worth saving and are salvageable, behold my sincere efforts to do so."

Again the trick is sourcing it from the right place. It is Love that moves the Gods of the Underworld, not lip service to duty.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:52 / 26.04.07
Something that comes to mind is that severe depression can put people so deeply in a box that even if they theoretically want to do what is needful to help themselves, they just kind of... can't.

At that point, even showing them what's wrong isn't what is needed. Showing them HOW to fix it, and lifting the heavy weight from their will to work on it is needed, however. And this can require not one, but nearly constant intervention until the person is no longer drowning.

A member of my community went through this recently and many of us failed to notice, because we are so in the habit of respecting eachother's choices. The problem is, the fellow wasn't making any choices. He was sitting in a dark box that he couldn't see out of, hoping desperately that somebody, anybody was stubborn enough to help.

I don't mean to be melodramatic, and I understand why it's hard to figure out where an individual's right to self-will end and the community obligation to support eachother begins. It depends tremendously on how individualistic vs. communalistic the culture happens to be, frankly. I think our culture can be individualistic to a fault, and this is one context where I think it merits a much closer look than usual.

--Ember--
 
  

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