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The Theory and Practise of Compassion

 
  

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Seth
20:36 / 06.01.05
This is the result of a conversation that Illmatic and I had during the Perineum (that strange part of the year between Christmas and New Years. I’ll leave you to ponder which festival correlates with which toilet part). It fascinated me to the core of my little black hole heart, so I’d been waiting for him to start the thread.

Essentially, I want it to be a massive brainstorming session for any idea, philosophy, belief or technique that fosters, stimulates or facilitates compassion – love, caring, agape, whatever you want to call it – in an individual or group of individuals. These can be from any discipline or ontology (covering the entire remit of the Temple forum), or entirely your own work. In order to be of immediate use I’d appreciate it if you either gave us a breakdown of the idea or technique so we can use it straight away, or pointed us in the right direction for where we can learn about it ourselves.

In a way I see this as a continuation of the Barbelith: Personal and Global Workings thread. My experiences during and after that project have made me very biased towards direct, hands on practise, and I’ll probably contribute a few related bits and bobs over the next few days/weeks. For now, I selfishly want to hear about what you lot have been up to…
 
 
illmatic
10:28 / 07.01.05
Sorry for not starting it, Seth: I’m snowed under with work. There might be another reason for not starting it as well, probably something to do with the fact that then I’d have to start taking the practices seriously again, and I found them to be bloody hard work and very challenging. Most of the stuff I’ve read up on has come from my dabblings in Buddhism, where they talk of generating compassion, using worldly events as the fuel for this process.

The idea is to start looking at events and the people around you, looking for opportunities in the world to generating warmth and openness, rather than letting bad events close us up, and retreat into our usual self-satisfied fantasies, obsession with our own gratification etc. Encouraging your thinking to go in a certain direction, towards something compassionate, rather than something selfish. An example might be, when walking along the street and seeing someone homeless, rather than seeing them as annoying, because they’re about to invade our personal space by begging, considering their situation and why they might be there. Even stopping and talking to them, giving them a quid or two. Now I know this sounds simple, obvious, incredibly so, but I think if we are honest with ourselves, we will all admit that there are many, many times during the day when we don’t do this, and carry on in our little bubble of selfishness. Not just in our interactions with the homeless, in our interactions with everyone, all day. It’s really challenging to step outside our self-centredness and self concern and to direct your attention and actions towards others. In fact, it’s so bloody challenging that I think everybody should give it a look! (I think action is key here –otherwise the whole thing is just a mental game – a worthwhile one, maybe, but still lacking).

I’d add that this in no way means beating your self up for not being “open” enough, it’s not a bloody “rule” or a “duty “to take on board, something to beat yourself up over – it’s a practice to experiment with and see how you feel. Is it healthy? Does it make you feel better? In fact, for me, the whole spirit of the practice starts with being compassionate and forgiving toward yourself. Taking on this sort of attitude has been really key and massively helpful in my own practice (especially useful if you’ve been weaned on Crowley and other stupid fucking magickal instructions about cutting yourself with razors, or rock hard meditations for hours and hours with no faults). I recently read “Waking Up” by Charles Tart, and he mentions that his students often had no problem with feeling compassion towards others, but tremendous problems with feeling it toward themselves. We’ve all internalised a hugely critically superego, the question is can we tell it to fuck off for a bit? I think this a useful starting point – can you quell the tide of self-criticism? Can you look in the mirror and feel warmth? Do you like yourself? Not for anything you have, or have done, some list of achievements, but basic warm, loving feelings towards yourself? If not, perhaps searching for these feeling regularly would be a worthwhile practice. If even the idea of this makes you feel uncomfortable, is that a clue toward something about yourself?

This is something I wrote on the subject for the talk on Dattatreya I gave at Treadwells last year (soon be up on the Web).

A practice I’ve been trying lately is the generating of compassion, or boddhicitta, as it’s referred to in the Tibetan tradition. It’s perhaps a little taboo for a man in our culture even to talk about something “soft” like compassion. In the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, nying je or compassion is actually commensurate with consciousness itself, central to our functioning, if we are only open enough to allow it. I have found this an excellent (though, again, difficult) practice for challenging ones own self-centredness. For instance, I have noted the low level hostility I run as background “stay away from me” programming as an inhabitant of the big city, on the tube and in the streets. I’ve tried to open up a little, accepting those around me, dropping my ever so slight anger and pushiness. I have similarly tried to summon up the images, thoughts and feelings and people who’ve fucked me off, annoyed or offended me in some way, and tried to see the situation concerned from their perspective, to forgive if I can and acknowledge my own role in causing such situations. Surprising sensations can arise. One can feel a little voice inside that doesn’t want to that will justify hanging on to the negative feelings, a little “war” begins internally before release. Both of these practises have brought on strong somatic sensations at various times, a sensation of “opening” around my chest, rushes of energy and pleasure, even tears.

I’d add that the process reminds me of the “free belief” of Austin Spare – you forgive someone, or yourself, for something you’ve been holding onto, and all this energy floods out with nowhere to go. I’ve used this to charge sigils in the past.

Final comment - I’d add that one practice I’ve found interesting when I feel “enmeshed in suffering” – down, depressed and hung up - is to acknowledge that it’s not just me who has problems. In Buddhist thought at least, the whole world is enmeshed in suffering, it’s the source of samsara, the world ocean, and there’s a resolution in most Buddhist practices to overcome this, not just for yourself, but for everyone else as well. Contemplating this is odd - when you allow into consciousness the fact that it’s not just you, that it’s possibly everyone else you know in one way or another - it’s strangely comforting in a weird way. You feel aligned with others, and resolute in your determination to overcome it. This usually gives me the energy and perspective to shift my thinking into something more positive.

Really interested to see anyone else’s comments or experiences here. Hope this discussion broadens beyond me and Seth (no disrespec’, dude).
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:26 / 07.01.05
give something you do well or have for nothing for example, if youve been practicing a martial arts set help somebody else learn it, if somebody is uncomfortable with something lend them your comfort literally give them your comfort, it is a tangible energy, as is a skill you have learnt.

donate items to charity, give your ever growing occult library to the local library, now!, give your c.ds away dvds etc, everything youve defined yourself with, well if you want to.

compassion is tied into deconstructing the ego every selfless act you perform literally helps your self become selfless.

work voulntarily, not even for the social merit. its an ongoing eternal battle for me with that side of me that just wants everything now and to remove(read kill) anything that gets in my way and stops me from doing what i want( my i am the king self you do what i say or lose your head), part of my trouble is this i have noticed the increasingly selfless i try to be the more angry mr king becomes, that his toys are being disregarded, its a cycle i am stuck in at present.

but that aside id also suggest reverence of kwan yin, i find a daily place for kwan yin helps.

i dont consider this beating myself up, more a way of allowing the true self and my image(ego) to shine with the same intensity.
 
 
gale
17:57 / 07.01.05
On a purely mundane level, opportunities abound for increasing compassion. For instance, if you're driving, let the person in the other car into your lane. Smile and say hello to anyone you make eye contact with (and just looking someone in the eye is important--this was recently mentioned somewhere, not sure if it was barbelith), if someone is upset, ask them what's wrong. Hold the door for people walking behind you.

I used to have alot of bad thoughts about people, just background noise in my head, but these thoughts were there. One day, I sat down and made a list of all these negative things, and then I went through the list asking why? over and over with each one, until I found an answer. The thoughts stopped cold, almost as if my seeing them destroyed them.

I have noticed that a lot of people seem very angry all of the time. I don't know how to stop that anger but my general outlook improved tremendously as soon as I stopped watching TV/listening to the news/reading newspapers.

Oh yes, and always say please and thank you. Don't sneeze in anyone's face. And never forget you're human.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:42 / 07.01.05
Every once in a while I sit on the subway and imagine that everyone on the subject is a friend and send out compassion to every person in the subway car.
 
 
Aertho
19:14 / 07.01.05
Compassion = That Which Combines

It is the fundamental principle on all levels of the Kosmos in opposition to That Which Separates. On the quantum physics level, That Which Combines is the Strong Nuclear Force. On the genetic level, it plays its part as Guanine. In the world of thoughts, That Which Combines is transcribed as "compassion".

Compassion blurs the lines between you and I. With compassion, we share ourselves, our rationale and our emotions. We "trust" according to our combined nature, our trust is "broken" when something is shown to NOT have been shared.

That Which Combines is also the element of water, The Tin Man, Susan Storm-Richards, the colour magenta, and the memory of my Grandpa Rolland dispensing wine during church communion.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:04 / 07.01.05
FinderWolf: Hey, I do that too! Using public transport every day I find it's easy to slip into a space where everyone is The Enemy ("How DARE you jump that ticket barrier/play that accordian/be in that pushchair! That's MY seat! MY place in the queue! MY last square foot on the train before the doors close! Mine mine minemineMINE!"). Spending a little time sending out the lurrrrve to your fellow sardines is a good antidote to that.
 
 
Papess
23:07 / 07.01.05
One method used in Buddhism, is to recognize everyone as your mother, or as once having been your mother. If mother images do not engender compassion, honour and respect, then maybe change that bit to recognizing everyone as your child. Of course, not in a patronising way, but in a nurturing way. Eventually, with enough meditation on that one easily learn to have compassion for "the mother" as well.

Kuan Yin practices are lovely, Wolfangel, as are Tara's, (specifically, Green or White Tara). Tara being a Tibetan Buddhist equivolent of Kuan Yin.
 
 
The Fourth
09:31 / 08.01.05
Not sure about that mother thing, apart from it spurning a whole load of conflicting emotions which might be useful to separate out in order to find some compassion!

I think it's important to demonstrate compassion towards others and oneself as Illmatic indicated and indeed this is the basis of much buddhist and tantric practice. This process can be thought of as outward acts, those directed to others, which then reflect back into oneself, from which experience hopefully more future compassion will be expressed. Inward acts, those directed to ourselves complement the process by addressing our own needs for love, kindness and compassion through self-realsisation/fulfillment or whatever you want to call it. This process ultimately frees us from the neurotic attachments we form with other people or things and again leave us freer to be more compassionate to those around us.

For myself I find I'm challenged on a daily basis in regarding other's compassionately as a direct result of the job I have. (health care professional, mental health). The most interesting aspect of this for me is to examine why some people evoke more compassion in me than others in the course of my work. This requires a very critical and skilled application of empathy. Developing and exercising empathy is a key skill in feeling compassion and behaving compassionately towards others.

On an inner personal level I have very recently enjoyed a great liberation! Truly! I don't want to go into detail, but I was heavily dogged by an anticipated negative outcome, which was mine, all mine! This anticipated outcome was having a very far reaching effect on my present by making me utterly miserable, and showed all clear signs of significantly continuing to do so in my future. But then I was writing my diary and caught myself, saw it clearly as a web in sunlight and then I just exercised an alternative outcome. It was a realistic outcome, it was a positively anticipated outcome too. I have to emphasise this was a process, not an intellectual exercise that I achieved by brainstorming alternative outcomes. The compassion came out of the misery really, I was a bit tormented and looking for an alternative, I wanted it, I wanted to be free of the constraint I felt trapped within.

In this way I think about compassion as a developing ability, it is beyond kindness and pity although it may encompass them. I think it has a core foundation in acts of freedom be they towards others or toward ourselves. It is about developing a consciouss process. Anyone can chuck a bit of change at a beggar but this is not necessarily an act of compassion. The compassion is about thinking and empathising with that persons situation and then deciding to act. One might put in time at a shelter instead of giving money etc. etc.

Great topic btw.
 
 
Papess
23:22 / 08.01.05
Well, the "Mother Meditation" is not for everyone. I think it was something that was taught to us while discussing Prajnaparamita, the mother of all buddhas.

Anyway, I have been searching the net for some more insightful meditations on compassion, and more comprehensive than the one in my last post, and this webpage on the Stages of Bodhichitta seemed like a very good place to worka little theory on this subject. There is a link on that page called Actions for Training from Developing the Pledged State of Aspiring Bodhichitta for those who indeed wish to learn how to be more compassionate. It is a bit of no-brainer stuff, but it is just that stuff people have trouble cultivating, (at least I know I do, sometimes).

From the site:

"The fifth point for training entails ridding ourselves of four types of murky behavior (nag-po'i chos-bzhi, four "black" actions) and adopting four glowing ones (dkar-po'i chos-bzhi, four "white" actions) instead. In each of the following four sets, the first type of behavior is the murky one that we try to stop and the second is the glowing one that we try to adopt.

(1) Stopping ever deceiving our spiritual teachers, parents, or the Triple Gem. Instead, always being honest with them, especially about our motivation and efforts to help others.

(2) Stopping ever faulting or being contemptuous of bodhisattvas. Instead, since only Buddhas can be certain who actually are bodhisattvas, regarding everyone in a pure way as our teachers. Even if people act in crude and distasteful manners, they teach us not to behave in these ways.

(3) Stopping ever causing others to regret anything positive they have done. If someone makes numerous mistakes when typing a letter for us and we yell with outrage, the person may never offer to help again. Instead, encouraging others to be constructive and, if receptive, to work on overcoming their shortcomings and realizing their potentials to be of more benefit to everyone.

(4) Stopping ever being hypocritical or pretentious in our dealings with others, in other words hiding our faults and pretending to have qualities we lack. Instead, taking responsibility to help others, always being honest and frank about our limitations and abilities. It is very cruel to promise more than we can deliver, raising others' false hopes. "


Chenrezig through the six realms - Finally, I want to mention this here, because I found it has helped me very much. Going through the six realms of the Tibetan cosmology with/as Chenrezig puts a perspective on one's own blessings and can make one feel very grateful for their auspicious birth. Of course, one can also meditate on the various other countries around the world who are suffering far worse than us in the west and that may engender a similar feeling and state of mind.

I personally feel that if one has little or no gratitude for what they have, they do not feel the wealth of spirit to cultivate compassion for others. Gratitude and compassion are intrinsically linked.

I hope I am not seeming to come off as some enlightened pseudo-guru. I have experienced many times when I forget my blessings and feel very little mercy for others, but I can always get up and try again. This takes us back to the initial statements made, I think from Illmatic, about this thread also being about having compassion for oneself. If I cannot forgive myself for the times I am a putz, I would never be able to get up again and feel like a useful human being, capable and worthy of giving and helping others.

Thanks, by the way, Seth and Illmatic. We all need more of this. 2004 was such a dark year for a lot of people I know.
 
 
The Fourth
00:30 / 09.01.05
There are some interesting pointers in the texts you quote here, but there is no sense that I can see of what your experience is, how you enact compassion, what it does to you, why you did it, how do you interpret the texts you quote in your own life and further development?
 
 
--
04:36 / 09.01.05
Yeah, I try to be compassionate... Except when some fool comes asking me for the sixth Harry Potter book. Those busta's are asking for it...
 
 
illmatic
13:29 / 09.01.05
Hmm, just got this through on another list.

A THELEMIC BODDHISATTVIC VOW

There is no difference
Between one thing and
Any other thing
Injury to One
Is injury to All
Loss of One is equal to
Loss of All
Failure of the piece
Is failure of the Whole
Attainment of One
Is attainment of All
Incarnation, Ego
Is making a difference
between one thing (self)
and Other Things (All)
>From this comes hurt
Loving All
Is thus not folly
NONE can unite the divided
But Love
Love is the Dharma (law)
It is this Love
The Compassion of Kings
Compassion for the All
And the Many
And the few and secret
And each one
Is Compassion for the All
Thus attainment for All
Is the True Manifestation of Will (Thelema)
And it is accomplished
Through Infinite Love


-Aion 12/12/04

Addendum:

Therefore:
I vow and dedicate my perceived being
Unity uttermost shown
To the 2=0
The Love and
The Law of Love
And the unity of All by love
And to attainment, awareness & awakening
For the One and the Many
Infinite Stars and Infinite Space
Om Ha!

 
 
Papess
15:53 / 09.01.05
There are some interesting pointers in the texts you quote here, but there is no sense that I can see of what your experience is, how you enact compassion, what it does to you, why you did it, how do you interpret the texts you quote in your own life and further development?

The Fourth, Was this directed at me? If it was, I am not sure what you are asking of me.

Illmatic: Considering how misinterpreted Thelemic theology can be, it is nice to see it coupled with Buddhism for further clarification. The whole "Love is the law..." concept, as relating to Dharma is very insightful, instead of the misunderstanding of relating the love (in this instance) to one's desires. Of course, desire can be used as a tool, and has a place in the engendering of love and compassion (as is taught in Tantra), but it is not the goal.
 
 
The Fourth
17:09 / 11.01.05
I was interested to know what your experiences if any, were of the text / meditations that you cited.
 
 
Papess
20:18 / 11.01.05
Well Fourth, those Bodhisattva vows are meant to be said everyday, twice preferably. The idea is to remind yourself everyday that compassion is your goal. Generally in Buddhism, if one takes initiation for a certain deity, there is (usually) a daily commitment or samaya, that goes along with that initiation that takes the form of a puja. At the begining of every puja I have ever done, we would always begin by saying: Refuge, Bodhisattva Vow and The Four Boundless Meditations. You might make note of that in the Chenrezig Puja I have linked to.

I have never used the Bodhisattva vow on that site I mentioned, but the theme is still the same - compassion for all sentient beings. The one I have used is as follows:

Bodhisattva Vow
Just as the Sugatas of former times engendered Bodhichitta and engaged themselves progressively in the Bodhisattva's training, so now do I, for the benefit of all sentient beings, give rise to Bodhichitta and apply myself in stages to such training.

What I cited from The Berzin Archives website are those stages.

There are four initial trainings:

Four Trainings for Bodhichitta Resolve Not to Decline in This Life
(1) Each day and night, recalling the advantages of the bodhichitta motivation. Just as we readily overcome our tiredness and tap our energies when we need to attend to our children, we easily surmount all difficulties and use all our potentials when our primary motivation in life is bodhichitta.

(2) Reaffirming and strengthening this motivation by rededicating our hearts to enlightenment and others three times each day and three times each night.

(3) Striving to strengthen enlightenment-building networks of positive force and deep awareness (collections of merit and insight). In other words, helping others as effectively as we can, and doing so with as much deep awareness of reality as possible.

(4) Never giving up trying to help anyone, or at least wishing to be able to do so, no matter how difficult he or she may be.



And a fifth one, I quoted before, is for not losing our resolve in future lives.

My own experience is, this compounding one's resolve daily does indeed work. The difficulty is commiting oneself to this everyday. I know that can be very difficult, especially in the west, because we have so many distractions and we are a lazy lot in general as we have so many conveniences to make our already pampered life easier. It works if it is done everyday, in just the same way if we wake up and make a point of focusing on miserable things everyday (and most of us do just by reading the newspaper), we most certainly will be discontented cranks and emanate that all day, or until we make a conscious effort not to. By turning the mind to compassion, everyday, we develop the Bodhisattva mind. I was told that at first, it may seem a bit contrived, but that shouldn't stop one from practicing. It eventually becomes a genuine way of being.

My personal experience is not a particularly good example of accomplishment, it is more of an example of struggling with myself. I have succumbed to both laziness and anger, totally blowing my Bodhisattva vows to hell (pardon the expression). But, in the spirit of a Bodhisattva, I have to eventually come 'round again and start all over, hopefully a little wiser. Thus, the importance of forgiving ourselves and being compassionate towards ourselves. Sometimes, I have found that extending compassion to others, can make me feel more compassion towards myself and vice versa. It is important to heal ourselves, though, if we want to help others.

Myself, I have a lot of trouble being compassionate towards people who are just cruel, abusive or malicious. Mistakes I can forgive, but deliberate intent to harm or random acts of cruelty, I find repulsive. Personally, I have no idea how to resolve this in myself, except to say, perhaps I need to practice more.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:06 / 12.01.05
an intresting side effect of cruelty or coldness is that it can often lead others who witness such an act to act compassionately to the person involved. compassion as a reaction to an event in some ways relies upon there being heartless action.

the intertwining of heartiness and heartlessness is an intresting weave of events, i think the dependency is mutual.
 
 
LVX23
17:34 / 12.01.05
Ill, that's resonant with my own conception of compassion. Recognizing that everyone is a reflection of the whole; that all of us are the same person with different masks; that harm to one is harm to all.

Another aspect is trying to understand the consequences that have led a person to the current place in their life. If they're homeless or mean or depressed, why? Everyone is suffering and the wrongs committed by someone are often the causal effects of the experiences they have endured. That's not to say that peopple don't have to be responsible for their actions - they do. But the factors of their life may not have supported the realization of their own responsibility (and ultimate buddahood).

H.H. the Dalai Lama said something about bad people being hidden Bodhisattvas because they teach us so much about ourselves.
 
 
Sekhmet
19:00 / 12.01.05
Every once in a while I sit on the subway and imagine that everyone on the subject is a friend and send out compassion to every person in the subway car.

FinderWolf, I do the same thing sometimes on the bus, and back when I had a car I used to do it when driving on the highway, with all the other drivers around me.

I actually find it easier to focus that sort of compassionate energy when traveling in company. Your post made me wonder why...

I think it may have something to do with the symbolic sense of being "all in the same boat"; a collection of people all traveling the same direction in the same way at the same time. Subconsciously I think this may translate into a recognition of the other people around you as beings like yourself, with goals and dreams and sorrows, shuttling through time and space like a microcosm of the world. There's a sense of motion, of transience, of places and moments slipping past irretrievably. As you sit and look around at the tired faces and creased brows, it's easy to feel compassionate towards your fellow travelers; there's an odd sense of kinship. For some reason it tends to bring tears to my eyes; it's oddly painful and wonderful at the same time.

Come to think of it, that also goes a long way towards explaining one of my dream-symbols; I figured out long ago that if I dreamed of riding in a car with someone, it symbolized our relationship, and I can tell a lot about my inner feelings by what the ride is like - bumpy, smooth, fun, fast, twisty, scary, catastrophic...
 
 
Papess
19:41 / 12.01.05
H.H. the Dalai Lama said something about bad people being hidden Bodhisattvas because they teach us so much about ourselves.

By the same token, if one knows this, is it then acceptable to just be mean-spirited or cruel on the basis that you are still being a Bodhisattva? I think Wolfangel also mentioned something about "compassion" and "cruelty" as being mutually dependant.

This is where my reason has a bit of a meltdown.

So, what is the point of being a Bodhisattva by engendering compassion if a) cruelty can be justified as an act of compassion, and b) by the very nature of compassion, it necessitates the existence of cruelty? Arguably, we could all just go out and slay each other as an act of compassion. Not that I am suggesting we should do that! This dichotomy confounds me. Necessary evil?

Also, does the reverse, cruelty necessitating compassion, really ring true?
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
20:06 / 12.01.05
Wacky!!! I've just been thinking of this very topic myself... Sort of off and on for the last few years, and really more action-item-list "on" since New Years.

Some things I've taken to doing, in general:

Listening more. The people who cross my path in life are interesting folks. They have stuff to say. There's an important exchange between the listener and the listen-ee.

Giving. I joined the local Freecycle yahoo group, and giving away stuff I don't need (or don't *really* use) is freeing, it breaks up the attachment bonds to "stuff", keeps me from being a pack-rat, AND the added uber bonus of spreading a little joy when you can provide something for FREE, and truly FREE, for someone else who is in a place where they need that "thing."

Giving. Giving music- there's something basic here that isn't grasped by the RIAA and Intellectual property laws.

Giving. $5, $23, or $42 to organizations I think (and through net research have found) to be engaged in compassionate activites. It's like I'm taking the money I have and transforming it into goodness and light. Which is a nice thing, considering all the negative connotations those little green fuckers have.

Giving. To the homeless, or those begging. Those berefit of any metallic substances, to to speak. I try to keep some bills and change in my pocket just for this very purpose.

Giving. Giving attention to other mammals. We're all mammals! We need it! Good Puppies!

Cooperating. Ever notice that you can sense the ki of another driver? When they want to change lanes, even though they don't have a turn signal on? I'm trying to stay in tune to that, and let people over. Participating in traffic as a cooperative member makes driving WAY less stressful, and seeing someone smile and wave because they were *finally* let into the lane they wanted, there's a connection there. Plus, traffic seems to mysteriously change around me- letting someone else in seems to make other drivers do the same. And since I ride a motorcycle, it's a little easier for me to move around in traffic and let other in, through, or past me.

Thinking. Sending what I consider 'happy thoughts' to my friends I know, and my friends I don't yet know who are around me in this world. And to myself, myself in the past and myself in the future. I think that my recent experience with DMT was influenced by this, as I felt like there was some energy, possibly myself, sending me those 'happy thoughts' while my ego was dying and I temporarily *insert whatever happens during a DMT trip/ rejoined the ancestors/ communicated with X/ broke open chakras/ bing! Pop! Wheeee!*


mmmm... good posts. Yummy reading thus far!
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
20:15 / 12.01.05
So, what is the point of being a Bodhisattva by engendering compassion if a) cruelty can be justified as an act of compassion, and b) by the very nature of compassion, it necessitates the existence of cruelty? Arguably, we could all just go out and slay each other as an act of compassion. Not that I am suggesting we should do that! This dichotomy confounds me. Necessary evil?

Also, does the reverse, cruelty necessitating compassion, really ring true?


Would it really be arguable that we'd all go out and slay each other as an act of compassion? LOL

Hm. I think that lama that I've met would say, "Why concentrate so much on the negative? If you have a negative thought, acknowledge it, and let it go." As in, the world has some mysteries that don't fit into our little mammalian brains/perspectives (yet.)

It's hard to say what's cruelty and what's compassion sometimes, I grok that. Under waht conditions do you put your pet to sleep? I've had to toss that one around myself. And although some may look at it from their perspective and say "Cruel!", from mine, it was one of the most compassionate decisions of my recent memory...
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:05 / 13.01.05
Makkitotosimew, hi i was trying illustrate another point from buddhism, that of attachment, when i become attached to either compassion or cruelty, or compassionate cruelty or cruel compassion, i am then binding those precepts to myself and myself to those precepts, i am sacraficing awareness to become something, as i do so i lock myself into the binary opposites of the world, and am then bound by the conception of my opposite as much as i am bound by my chosen ideal.

nature has a jewelled indifference to life and death, as humans we generally try to be more than nature, when in fact we are nature, accepting that nature seems to me to be the hardest part.

i am finding the kwan yin oracle by stephen karcher useful.

i practice shaolin kung fu founded by buddhists to some degree, it teaches compassion by raising chi to the heart centre(solar plexus in chinese thought) although the philosophy and movements do engender a degree of compassion i have to say that gettting comfortable to it is only through pain,self torture and discipline. this could easily be construed as cruelty from the outside to somebody not practicing the art.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:13 / 13.01.05
another way of explaining attachment would be this>

in the beginning it was formless and void.

then i divided the light from the darkness

an chose the light cause i wanted to be a good boy,

alternately i could just watch the light an darkness mate, fight , kill , heal, eat sandwhiches, shit etc
and just watch without choosing a thing. pretty vacant.

the middle pillar rather than either of the two side pillars.
 
 
Papess
18:10 / 13.01.05
Wolfangel, I do have quite the understanding of attachment, I am certain! It is what Buddhists and various other doctrines aim to sever in an effort to transcend samsaric rebirth and needless suffering.

I posted my last comment in a bit of a "devil's advocate" mood. If cherishing either cruelty or compassion demonstrates clinging and attachment, why bother to do anything at all? I think I use this argument (that I have with myself, usually) to turn my mind from the apathetic and slovenly states it can sink to by asking why I need to act at all. In travelling the Middle Pillar, I find there are periods of inactivity and action. "Inactive" is more of a "folly mode" and "Active" is the controlled mode of operation that requires exceptional balance (of the outer pillars of mercy and severity) and precision execution.

To attempt to answer my own question about "hidden Bodhisattvas" engaged in deliberate acts of cruelty justified as compassion: I suppose the point is proper compassion is neither "severe" nor "merciful", but a calculated appropriation of both extremes and thusly, suitable action. So, as I am understanding your point, Wolfangel, I am finding it necessary to redifine for myself what compassion is, in the manner I just mentioned. When we attach ourselves to either extreme, we are not being compassionate, as we most likely are not performing appropriate action.

As Farseer exemplified in hir post, a case where what is a seemingly cruel and severe act can be used in the most compassionate manner. The difference being defined with one word: intention...to further answer my previous questions. Farseer's example doesn't actually count as "hidden Bodhisattva" activity because hir intention was to do the most compassionate act possible, given the circumstances. Had Farseer euthanized hir cat, (Please forgive me if I am being insensitive by using your sad experience as an example, Farseer.), simply because it was an inconvenience, that would be more along the lines of cruelty, (being inappropriate and avoidable) and definately a better example of a "hidden Bodhisattva".

My original question: By the same token, if one knows this, (about bad people being hidden Bodhisattvas) is it then acceptable to just be mean-spirited or cruel on the basis that you are still being a Bodhisattva? My gut reaction is "no". This maybe obvious to everyone else, but not quite for me. Maybe I am the only lucky bastard here who has met one of these enlightened masters of hidden compassion, and has been "blessed" by them. It can be very confusing.

"Okay, so they have manipulated, lied and decieved, stolen from me and have done violence to me, but it was done in the hope that I become enlightened." I have read Milerepa's story too, and the severity with which Marpa grilled him, for his own good. Somehow, Marpa was using compassionate appropriation even though his actions seemed severe towards Milarepa. What is the difference in being justified using this knowledge and simply being self-centred, ego-driven and indifferent to the suffering of others? How would one spot the difference? And finally, how would one deliberate the compassionate usage of severity?

I think that intention plays a paramount role in the difference between "crazy wisdom" and just being a nutter on a power trip, but a clear perception of how, when & why, eludes me ATM.

BTW, Farseer, you have some lovely suggestions for active compassion. I like the very simple idea of making a point of thinking happy thoughts about people. On first glance it doesn't seem active. However, that it is an active thought process and done with purpose. It is much different than just saying "I care." with little intention behind it (there's that word again!). It is a gift of energy. Cheers!
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:28 / 13.01.05
i wasnt suggesting you didnt get it, just illustrating my point, i am intrested by what you say about intention, do you really think intention is that important? what if i am unintentionally compassionate or cruel? i also get to that place where my head state is saying no action is the only action, yet that also makes action inconsequential as a by product,wether that be intentionally or unintentionally. compassionate becomes unimportant as does the action wether it be murder or saving a life, the meaning becomes a by product of attachment to the circumstance and the action, does compassion change to cruelty and vice a versa in the blink of an eye, does compassion have an essence?
is love a force?

does compassion imply a moral action? as opposed to an immoral action. and does an amoral philosophy redifine the sense in which compassion can be applied?
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:49 / 13.01.05
the difference perhaps between a nutter on a power trip and crazy wisdom is only in perception and as time changes the perceptions change, some days there a bastard other days their an enlightened master, but they never exsisted as those things. reality isnt an illusion but perceptual judgement is at best transitory. this self made of word and memory has to be real its my foundation, i did experience that,am i still there experiencing that? or can i forgive and move on?

can i forgive? its a question i ask myself alot. forgiven but never forgotten?
 
 
Papess
21:26 / 13.01.05
i wasnt suggesting you didnt get it, just illustrating my point,

Really, I was making a joke about myself.

the difference perhaps between a nutter on a power trip and crazy wisdom is only in perception

You see, I really have a hard time with "it's all in your mind" type answers. This just excuses all cruel and callous behavior and makes the recipient of it the one to bear the burden. It makes me think of a sheep clothed in a doormat. The perpetrator of the cruel acts have no responsibility for their actions and it is all sugar-coated with "It's for your own good I am being cruel to you". This doesn't wash with me.

If we individually try, over the years to forgive a person or situation and move on, well of course we will eventually learn to make lemonade out of lemons. That doesn't change the initial situation though.

I am certain that one's intention is the key here, or else it seems to me, just a pointless and cruel action based largely in one's own self concern.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:16 / 14.01.05
but it really is my choice how i react to a situation, no matter what the action, it is my choice how i choose to relate to somebody, or is somebody else responsible for how i feel? have i given that responsibility away and then expect them to treat me if i were them? personally there are very few people i trust that much, having learnt my lessons from those i did give that much trust too. never again.forgiving but not forgetting.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:18 / 14.01.05
the self is never seperate, but the choice of how you percieve and relate is your own.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:22 / 14.01.05
really if somebody has treated you that cruelly, i would become a hidden bodhisattva, go find them smack them in the face repeatedly while telling them you love them.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:43 / 14.01.05
just so you know ive been the scared lamb clothed in a door mat, too gentle to do anything about the abuse, the head games and the emotional annhilation. hatred and rejection passed around from relationship to relationship.

i tried blaming everybody else the world the perpetrators it left me in the same place, but somebody has to stop the cycle somewhere, and forgive, or it continues passed on and on, as each person carries the previous suffering into the next relationship. at some point i had to let that go or be forever caught in that cycle. i am not going to say thats easy, because it isnt, but it is a matter of changing my own relatioship to my experience to learn from it, oh and learning kung fu so my compassion is tempered within the correct way, i am finding myself with alot more power that i have to learn to be responsible for. on reflection the previous relationships brought me here to where i am now with everything i am and have now, for that i thank them for the teaching, but at the same time i dont want to repeat those lessons.
 
 
Papess
18:00 / 14.01.05
I realize you are trying to be helpful, Wolfangel, but the answers you are giving is the same simple rhetoric I have heard or read about everywhere. Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, as you seem concerned for me, and that I appreciate. However, if I hear another, "take the high road", "rise above it", "chalk it up to experience", or heaven forbid..."everything is going to be just fine", I am going to scream. It is all very good, simple advice, but hard as fuck to actually follow. Or am I the only unenlightened twit who seems to have a problem with this?

Okay. Maybe it is just me. I think I am just about to exorcise this...hang on and bear with me. Maybe this will help someone else, (or not, since I am the only twit in the village).

I feel this little blackness in my heart. It is a lot like a black hole, a wormhole/vortex thingy that yes, even light disappears into. It is not all consuming if I turn my attention away from it, but it has that potential. It feels like poison and I hang onto it anyway. Why? Because it is the antidote as well. If I let it go completely I would feel defenceless. I am actually feeling very vulnerable right now, as I type this and I am now rather weepy and the screen is a bit blurry. Hang on...

That was quite difficult for me. I needed to do it though, to get at the heart of the matter, so to speak.

So, because of this, I cannot feel completely compassionate towards some people, and certainly not loving. The best I can muster is pity, which really isn't very loving at all. This blackness extends beyond personal relationships. For example if I read a story about someone who has hurt a child I cannot find a place in my heart for them.

I can understand that it is important to get on with one's life, and use bad experience as a reminder of what to avoid, but to turn around and show compassion to people who knowingly make deliberate acts of cruelty, (and then sometimes, even try to justify it!), I find it beyond me to do so. Like I said, the best I can do is feel pity for them, that they do have the realization to understand the true nature of what they have done. To which my compassion responds by trying to show them, mostly, so they won't do it again. To be honest I haven't had much luck with this. It is really hard to speed up other people's evolutionary process. If someone were to show a rapist, for example, all the consequential damage (even to themselves) they were about to cause before they committed rape, I bet they would stop in their tracks. Tell them afterward, and it's simply persecution. This is most times met with denial. So now, on top of having committed an act of cruelty with complete disregard for anyone else but themselves, they now make a claim of "not guilty", which for me, makes them even less lovable.

The noble thing to do as a Bohdisattva, is to love them anyway, right? But how? What's to love? Am I a doomed and defunct aspiring Bodhisattva?

To forgive them, seems too easy for them if there is no honest remorse on their part. If they are continually forgiven for their cruel behavior why would they have any inclination to change? I think, for myself, it would be easier to feel compassion for them if they were at least trying to make the effort of changing such behavior.

I am also aware that it is precisely these people who need compassion, but it has to be executed by what Buddhists call skillful action. I am just not sure what that would be sometimes, not being a fully enlightened Buddha myself to be able to see what means would be most effective.
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
21:06 / 14.01.05
What's to Love?
If they are continually forgiven for their cruel behavior why would they have any inclination to change?
I am just not sure what that would be sometimes,

I struggled for a while with picking out the right words to use, so please don't be offended if this silly language thing mucks it all up. Silly language- English doubly so.

I'm guessing the root of the above confusion is this: They, the agent of remorseless cruel behavior, ARE you. Our seperation into catagories of individuality is maya. With this in mind, make the most compassionate choice in a given situation as you can imagine (because it's only our imagination that sets the limit). If we're all expressions of the universe experiencing itself, and every decision (thought, energy, action, motion, emotion) matters or has an effect, then it is those who are farthest away from awaken-ness who need special attention, love, and compassion. Sometimes it seems like a waste, but we know that repitition does have an effect on the brain. Only through reaching out to "them" will change likely occur. Due to the maya, it seems impossible to "know" if our compassion has any positive effect upon anyone but ourselves...

This was the hardest thing for me to start processing on a daily basis, and I have trouble describing it with words, matching it up to how I feel in my heart/brain/wherever.

How odd. This just came up in my iTunes playlist:
"This is just a test/ take it with Love and you will pass./ You will be rewarded if you do your very best./ Nothing ever goes as planned, so don't take anything for granted / if you do, the world will kick your ass/" - Kimya Dawson, "Anthrax"
 
 
Papess
21:38 / 14.01.05
They, the agent of remorseless cruel behavior, ARE you.

Oh, so now you're blaming me for all the nasty behavior?

Actually, when I think of some of the cruel stuff some people do to others it makes me rather ill to think that is me. It also makes me want to beat them about the head a little bit more because, well...it's my head too!

Ahh finally, justification for the hidden Bodhisattva! YAY!

To be honest, I don't think I am anywhere near being any kind of "giver of lessons". I am not really sure who is. I certainly think life throws people enough obstacles. Why anyone would want to be deliberately cruel to another just baffles me.

Nothing ever goes as planned, so don't take anything for granted / if you do, the world will kick your ass/

But, will the world do it with love?
 
  

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